Balance based on hard data from the PBEM tournament (continued)

Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Balance based on hard data from the PBEM tournament (continued)

This topic contains 242 replies, has 26 voices, and was last updated by  Hiliadan 4 days, 18 hours ago.

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  • #258467

    devolution
    Member

    What about nerfing twisting roots like I described in the steam forum ?
    (Huge thanks for the PBEM mod btw!)

    #258477

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Thanks for the good words! 🙂

    What about nerfing twisting roots like I described in the steam forum ?

    As I said on Steam:
    “Twisting Roots was indeed spotted in the radar but nobody really complained about it up to now so we did not try tackling it. But I keep that in mind, and you’re probably right that a 3 turns duration would be a good solution. We already have a kind of congestion in the pipe of proposed changes for v1.23 but if a change to Twisting Root doesn’t make it for v1.23, it should make it in v1.24.”

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by  Hiliadan.

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    #258504

    Zaskow
    Member

    What about nerfing twisting roots like I described in the steam forum ?
    (Huge thanks for the PBEM mod btw!)

    This spell would be nerfed in 1.23.
    Biggest problems it has, because: a) it can appear as starting spell; b) it’s pretty powerful spell if used correctly.

    “Twisting Roots was indeed spotted in the radar but nobody really complained about it up to now so we did not try tackling it. But I keep that in mind, and you’re probably right that a 3 turns duration would be a good solution. We already have a kind of congestion in the pipe of proposed changes for v1.23 but if a change to Twisting Root doesn’t make it for v1.23, it should make it in v1.24.”

    I was aware about power of this spell even on live MP matches with friends. On manual battles vs. dull AI it could be pretty devastating.
    3 turns limit is too huge. First nerf would be deleting possibility for this spell to be in spellbook from start of game and to limit its appearing after first 5-7 turns only.

    #258567

    devolution
    Member

    @zaskow: Thanks for making this change a priority, I totally agree that it should not be among the possible starting spells!

    #258867

    Hiliadan
    Member

    New priority changes:
    Ne15a
    Undeads that attack a unit with Necromantic Aura get “Mind Control Immunity” if the Aura fails its 7 spirit attack check on them (units with “Mind Control Immunity” cannot be affected by Necromantic Aura).

    Dr19a
    The Dreadnought ability Fireproofing gives +60% Fire Protection and Lava Walking. It requires Forge Aprons. (was called “Lava Walking”, was giving +100 % Fire Protection and did not require Forge Aprons)

    GC35 also becomes Priority change.

    • This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Hiliadan.
    • This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Hiliadan.

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    #258885

    Hiliadan
    Member

    New priority changes:
    Dr21b
    Inject Mana Fuel is Once per battle and cannot be dispelled.

    Dr21c
    Inject Mana Fuel is Once per battle and can be dispelled.
    (lorewise, it is an injection of Mana or something similar so it is magic and things that dispel magic should work on it)

    • This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Hiliadan.

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    #258982

    Hiliadan
    Member

    First change confirmed for v1.24:
    GC46
    Domains of XXX spells can be researched by Necromancer (were not displayed in the research book of Necromancer) and their non-morale bonus apply to Undead, Elementals and units of Magical Origin (these three types of units still do not start to “Like” the climate due to the spell) (was Undead, Elementals and units of Magical Origin do not benefit from the stat boost

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    #259018

    Hiliadan
    Member

    New priority changes:

    Fe01
    Fey Dwelling’s buildings:
    Buttercup Meadow (T1 building): 100 gold (was 150 gold) – same as Barracks
    Toadstool Ring (T2 building): 150 gold (unchanged) – 25 lower than War Hall
    Nightshade Hollow (T3 building): 250 gold (was 200 gold) – (and replace some gold by mana?) – 50 gold lower and 100 mana lower than the T3 racial building
    Unicorn Glade (unlocks Unicorn) costs 100 gold and is unlocked by Buttercup Meadow (was cost 150 gold and directly buildable)
    Nymph Pond (unlocks Nymph) costs 100 gold and is unlocked by Buttercup Meadow (was cost 150 gold and is unlocked by Fairy Charm)
    Aphrodisiac Flowers (2nd defensive building) is unlocked by Fairy Charm (was unlocked by Nymph Pond)

    Fe02
    Nymphs get +1 strength on Seduce and on Befriend Animal on Elite

    Fe03
    Unicorns get Healing on Elite

    Ar01
    Undead Archon Dwelling’s buildings:
    Graveyard (Infantry) costs 50 gold (was 100)
    Charnel House (Archer) costs 50 gold (was 100) – total cost of unlocking Infantry and Archer = 100, similar to Barracks
    Sigil of Awakening costs 50 gold and 25 mana (was 50 gold and 50 mana) – similar cost (75) to Shrine as it gives +10 mana/turn
    Obelisk of Undeath (gives Cursed to enemy units in domain) costs 75 gold and 25 mana (was 75 gold and 50 mana) – similar cost to racial defense building
    Barrow (Caster) costs 90 gold and 50 mana (was 100 gold and 50 mana) – can now be done in 2 turns with the base 70 production
    Haunted Vault (Wraith) is unlocked by Sigil of Awakening and Obelisk of Undead (was unlocked by Barrow, itself needing these 2 buildings) and cost 135 gold and 40 mana (was 160 gold and 40 mana) – similar to War Hall
    Mausoleum (Titan) costs 250 gold and 110 mana (was 250 gold and 75 mana)

    Ar02
    Chamber of Rite gives Heal Undead to all Supports in the domain

    Ar03
    Obelisk of Undeath gives all Undead in the domain Undeath Aura, which heal them 6 HP / strategic turn. Obelisk of Undeath requires Sigil of Awakening (was could be built directly) and contributes to unlocking Chamber of the Rite (which also requires the Barrow)

    Na01
    Serpent Hall (Slither) and Viper Fortress (Guardian) cost 65 gold and 50 mana each (was 75 gold and 50 mana) and Altar of the Great Mother (Matriarch) costs 170 gold and 75 mana (was 150 gold and 75 mana)

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    #259127

    Hiliadan
    Member

    New priority changes:
    Me01
    The Mermaid’s Cove can be built without pre-requisite (was: needs Deep Sea Trench). The Abyssal Ridge requires the Siren’s Rock and the Deep Sea Trench (was: needs Siren’s Rock, which needs Mermaid’s Cove, which needs Deep Sea Trench)

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    #259130

    Zaskow
    Member

    New priority changes:

    Wow! This is the first time when I liked all proposed changes.

    #264374

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Confirmed changes for v1.24:
    Dr19a
    The Dreadnought ability Fireproofing gives +60% Fire Protection and Lava Walking. It requires Forge Aprons. (was called “Lava Walking”, was giving +100 % Fire Protection and did not require Forge Aprons)

    Fe01
    Fey Dwelling’s buildings:
    Buttercup Meadow (T1 building): 100 gold (was 150 gold)
    Nightshade Hollow (T3 building): 250 gold (was 200 gold)
    Unicorn Glade (unlocks Unicorn) costs 100 gold and is unlocked by Buttercup Meadow (was cost 150 gold and directly buildable)
    Nymph Pond (unlocks Nymph) costs 100 gold and is unlocked by Buttercup Meadow (was cost 150 gold and is unlocked by Fairy Charm)
    Aphrodisiac Flowers (2nd defensive building) is unlocked by Fairy Charm (was unlocked by Nymph Pond)

    Ar01
    Undead Archon Dwelling’s buildings:
    Graveyard (Infantry) costs 50 gold (was 100)
    Charnel House (Archer) costs 50 gold (was 100)
    Sigil of Awakening costs 50 gold and 25 mana (was 50 gold and 50 mana)
    Obelisk of Undeath (gives Cursed to enemy units in domain) costs 75 gold and 25 mana (was 75 gold and 50 mana)
    Barrow (Caster) costs 90 gold and 50 mana (was 100 gold and 50 mana)
    Haunted Vault (Wraith) is unlocked by Sigil of Awakening and Obelisk of Undead (was unlocked by Barrow, itself needing these 2 buildings) and cost 135 gold and 40 mana (was 160 gold and 40 mana)
    Mausoleum (Titan) costs 250 gold and 110 mana (was 250 gold and 75 mana)

    Ar02
    Chamber of Rite gives Heal Undead to all Supports in the domain

    Ar03
    Obelisk of Undeath gives all Undead in the domain Undeath Aura, which heal them 6 HP / strategic turn. Obelisk of Undeath requires Sigil of Awakening (was could be built directly) and contributes to unlocking Chamber of the Rite (which also requires the Barrow)

    Me01
    The Mermaid’s Cove can be built without pre-requisite (was: needs Deep Sea Trench). The Abyssal Ridge requires the Siren’s Rock and the Deep Sea Trench (was: needs Siren’s Rock, which needs Whispering Rocks and Mermaid’s Cove, which needs Deep Sea Trench)

    Na01
    Serpent Hall and Viper Fortress cost 65 gold and 50 mana each (was 75 gold and 50 mana) and Altar of the Great Mother costs 170 gold and 75 mana (was 150 gold and 75 mana)

    GC26a
    Forbidden Sanctum no long have a defender set containing Nymphs and Shamans

    Or03
    Orc Impalers get “Impaling” (Impalers get a chance with each attack to immobilize the attacked unit) and cost +5 Gold

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    #264375

    Zaskow
    Member

    Orc Impalers get “Impaling” (Impalers get a chance with each attack to immobilize the attacked unit) and cost +5 Gold

    Strength?

    #264379

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Good question!

    I think everyone had in mind the Immobilize of Harpoon Thrower so I updated like this:

    Or03
    Orc Impalers get “Impaling” (Impalers have a 8 physical strength chance with each attack to immobilize the attacked unit for 2 rounds) and cost +5 Gold

    New priority changes:
    Ne22
    Animate Ruins costs 110 CP (was 60)

    So10
    Summon Fantastic Creature can be used Water hex (was only on land)

    Dr23
    Dreadnoughts get +5 gold/Village

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    #264383

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    If I may chime in here, since this is an ability I created (for my mod) – I made it strength 9, because I think it should be stronger than that of a Frostling HT; for one, Orcs are stronger, for two it’s melee effect.

    #264384

    Hiliadan
    Member

    If I may chime in here, since this is an ability I created (for my mod) – I made it strength 9, because I think it should be stronger than that of a Frostling HT; for one, Orcs are stronger, for two it’s melee effect.

    I actually considered making it strength 7. Unlike Throw Harpoon which can trigger max once per turn, this inflict could trigger three times per turn. I don’t think making it strength 9 would be reasonable for a T1. True it’s melee though so harder to put to good use. But I guess we should test first before adjusting the strength.

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    #264386

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I was just giving an info.

    For a couple of reasons the discussion of which I wouldn’t want to force upon you, I also gave Impaled the Impaired effect in addition to the Immobilized effect.

    #269919

    Hiliadan
    Member

    New priority changes:
    GC26b
    Forbidden Sanctum’s reward is a free skill, 200 mana and an extra reward made of CP, with a multiplier so that you get maximum +80 CP (was free tech, about 40 CP and the excess resource was mana)

    GC54:
    Dwellings can now be targeted by the following spells: Poison Domain, Summoner’s Aura, Hallowed Domain, Embrace Darkness, Scales of Fortune, Spiritual Freedom, Glyph of Warding, Mana Fuel Cell, all the Domains of xx, Night Wish.

    AD02a
    Poison Domain can be cast on cities owned by the caster’s allies (was only caster’s cities).

    Dr24
    Advanced Logistics unlocks Night Vision Sensor, a T3 tech costing 200 RP that gives Spy Drones Night Vision and is necessary to unlock Produce Ironclad Warship. Produce Ironclad Warship costs 550 RP (was 750 RP).

    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by  Hiliadan.

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    #270031

    gladis
    Member

    Dr24:
    DN should be smart enough to install them on Golems, too.
    One other interesting idea: They should be something like Supports in later game. With synergies to Engineers. So they could carry some repairing Tools that they could give to Engineers (Touch ability) and which bestows them (or resets) the ability of Repairing Machines. I know the Topic of Repairing has beed discussed in excess 😛

    #270130

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Dropped:
    GC41c
    Armor Piercing costs 1 upgrade point (UP) (was 2)
    Coup de Grace costs 1 UP (was 2)
    Inflict Immolation costs 3 UP (was 4)
    Healing costs 5 UP (was 4)

    GC41e
    Break Control costs 3 UP (was 2)
    Inflict Severely Poisoned costs 4 UP (was 5)
    True Sight costs 4 UP (was 3)
    Phase costs 3 UP (was 4)
    Projectile Reflection costs 3 UP (was 5)
    Rapid Reload costs 2 UP (was 3)
    Guardian Flame costs 4 UP (was 5)
    Martial Art costs 3 UP (was 2)
    Tireless costs 7 UP (was 6)
    One with the Tree costs 5 UP (was 6)
    Life Steal costs 3 UP (was 2)
    Energy Drain costs 5 UP (was 4)

    Ne01a
    Stiffen Limb has a strength 13 Spirit check and cost 8 CP. If it fails, its target gets -12 MP for one turn (was no attack check and 7 CP).

    New priority changes:
    GC41g
    Armor Piercing costs 1 upgrade point (UP) (was 2)
    Inflict Immolation costs 3 UP (was 4)

    GC41h
    Inflict Severely Poisoned costs 4 UP (was 5)
    True Sight costs 4 UP (was 3)
    Phase costs 3 UP (was 4)
    Projectile Reflection costs 3 UP (was 5)
    Rapid Reload costs 2 UP (was 3)
    Guardian Flame costs 4 UP (was 5)
    Martial Art costs 3 UP (was 2)
    Tireless costs 7 UP (was 6)
    One with the Tree costs 5 UP (was 6)
    Life Steal costs 3 UP (was 2)
    Energy Drain costs 5 UP (was 4)

    Ne01b
    Stiffen Limb has a strength 13 Spirit check and cost 7 CP. If it fails, its target gets -12 MP for one turn (was no attack check).

    New “To be dropped?”
    GC44
    Vow of Poverty costs 8 UP (was 6)

    EDIT:
    New Priority changes:
    Ne23
    Dark Ritual spawns 2 Cadavers and costs 40 CP (was 3 Cadavers and 40 CP)

    Dr25
    Great Blacksmith increases sales at your forges: Magma Forge generates +5 gold/turn

    Dr26
    Dreadnought’s Foundry generates +5 gold/turn.

    Dr27
    Engineers have Tunneling and can Build Road for 4 gold/hex and Bridges for 48 gold (was 5 gold/hex and 60 gold).

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  Hiliadan.

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    #270779

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Dropped:
    Wt01
    Water Master gets Hail Storm instead of Drench the Land. Hail Storm is a strategic spell and causes 5 physical damage and 5 frost damage to all units and gives Weaken for 1 strategic turn to all Machines or Undead up to 2 hexes away from its center. It costs 350 RP, is tier IV, costs 90 CP.

    Wi01
    Unstable Transformation attempts (blight strength 15) to transform target enemy unit into a unit of equal or lower tier and that unit dies after 3 rounds (was Target unit is saturated with powerful magic and transforms into a new random unit of equal or great power. The new unit is inherently unstable and will die at the end of combat). If it fails, the units receives two random debuffs and will die at the end of the combat.
    Debuffs include Cursed, Weakened, Bleeding, Blinded, Broken Spirit, Choking, Crippled, Dazzled, Disgusted, Enfeebling Fever.

    New priority changes:
    Wt01a
    Water Master gets Hail Storm instead of Drench the Land. Hail Storm is a strategic spell which affects all enemy units up to 2 hexes away from its target hex. All units affected become Drenched for 1 strategic turn and suffer 5 physical damage and 5 frost damage. All Machines or Undeads affected receive Weaken for 1 strategic turn. If cast on a city, causes minor city happiness penalty and major happiness penalty with the race that owns the city. It costs 350 RP, is tier IV, costs 90 CP.

    Wi01a
    Unstable Transformation attempts (blight strength 15) to transform target enemy unit into a unit of equal or lower tier and that unit dies after 3 rounds (was Target unit is saturated with powerful magic and transforms into a new random unit of equal or great power. The new unit is inherently unstable and will die at the end of combat). If it fails, the units receives two random debuffs and will die at the end of the combat. Heroes and Leaders cannot be targetted.
    Debuffs include Cursed, Weakened, Bleeding, Blinded, Broken Spirit, Choking, Crippled, Dazzled, Disgusted, Enfeebling Fever.

    EDIT:
    Dropped
    AD13
    Baby Serpents have an intermediary T2 step in their evolution: Adult Serpents

    To be dropped?
    Ne12
    Necromancer starts with a random hero (was starts with a Necromancer hero)

    EDIT2:
    Dropped:
    AD12
    Baby Spiders have an intermediary T2 step in their evolution:
    Dread Spider Baby evolves into Mature Dread Spider Baby:
    HP: 48; Def: 10; Res: 10; MP: 32
    Melee Strike: 8 physical, 5 blight
    Abilities: same as Dread Spider Baby, 60% (40%) Blight Protection, Evolve (Dread Spider Queen)
    Hunter Spider Baby evolves into Mature Hunter Spider:
    HP: 43; Def: 10; Res: 10; MP: 36
    Melee Strike: 8 physical, 5 blight
    Abilities: same as Hunter Spider Baby, 60% (40%) Blight Protection; Evolve (Hunter Spider Queen)
    Vampire Spider Baby evolves into Mature Vampire Spider:
    HP: 44; Def: 10; Res: 10; MP: 32
    Melee Strike: 8 physical, 5 blight
    Abilities: same as Vampire Spider Baby, 60% (40%) Blight Protection; Evolve (Vampire Spider Queen)
    Dropped
    AlXStormrage, mauvebutterfly, Lightform (but prefer AD10), Jean_de_Metz
    Evgendil, Zaskow (need a new model), Fistandantilus (too much work), marcuspers (need to test), Eskild, gabthegab (or just Serpents), Hellbrick (would make them useless because too slow), Skuns453Lirik902, Hiliadan (AD10 implemented), gladis

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  Hiliadan.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  Hiliadan.

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    #270795

    Hiliadan
    Member

    New priority changes following feedback by Blackwill:

    Sh02
    Fallen Angel’s damage are increased to 22-24, its cost is reduced to 250 CP (was 5+5+5+5 = 20 damage and 280 CP)

    Gr01
    Chtonic Guardian’s damage are increased to 21, its cost is reduced to 250 CP (was 18 damage and 280 CP)

    Ke01
    Arch Angel’s damage are increased to 11 physical and 12 spirit, its cost is reduced to 250 CP (was 10 physical and 10 spirit damage and 280 CP)

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    #270931

    Hiliadan
    Member

    New priority changes:
    Ti02
    Tigran cities get +3 gold bonus (was 5)

    Ro18
    Corrupted Killers give Evolve into Lesser Shadow Stalker and +1 ranged strength to Scoundrels (was Evolve and Quick Learner)

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    #270939

    Hiliadan
    Member

    New priority change (finally chose something for Martyrs!!):

    Th10b
    Martyr have a specific tier parameter: they reach Expert at 70 XP instead of 35 XP and reach Elite at 140 XP instead of 70 XP. Regeneration is available at Expert (was Elite).

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    #271151

    Hiliadan
    Member

    New priority change:
    GC55
    A new Avatar spell, “Terraform Blocked Rivers” (rapids) is available as a starting spell. It allows to terraform blocked rivers into (unblocked) rivers (when in domain) for 12 mana per hex.

    GC55a
    Blocked Rivers (rapids) are now generated only as small sections of rivers (about 4-5 hexes long), and not as long rivers

    GC56
    Path of xx (Frost, Decay, Life, …) abilities become strategic activable abilities giving the Path for 1 turn

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    #271176

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Confirmed for v1.25:
    GC54
    Dwellings can now be targeted by the following spells: Poison Domain, Summoner’s Aura, Hallowed Domain, Embrace Darkness, Scales of Fortune, Spiritual Freedom, Glyph of Warding, Mana Fuel Cell, all the Domains of xx, Night Wish.

    Fe03
    Unicorns get Healing on Elite

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    #271302

    Hiliadan
    Member

    New priority changes:
    Pa01a
    Units with Guerilla Tactics which retreat lose all the experience gained during the fight (was keep it the first time they retreat in a strategic turn)

    De06
    Scorched Earth causes -50 race happiness with the race of the city on which it is cast

    Dropped:
    Ai06
    Air Master gets Wind Path instead of Heavy Winds. Wind Path is a strategic spell which gives target stack +36 MP on the strategic map for one strategic turn. It costs 700 RP, 60 CP and is tier V. Wind Path causes units getting extra movement to become Exhausted for 3 turns (including the turn when it is cast). Wind Path causes units getting extra movement to become Tired until the end of the (strategic) turn.
    Exhausted units cannot receive extra movement from Wind Path or Death March any more. Tired units get -50% movement in tactical combat.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Hiliadan.

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    #271441

    Hiliadan
    Member

    New priority changes:
    Ti03
    Tigran economic RG2: gives +7 gold bonus from Observatories (was 10)

    GC07a
    Tournament size 65 x 73 becomes Tournament square 73 x 73

    Gr02
    Golden Balance (Grey Guard Master) gives +4 additional gold from cities (was 5)

    Confirmed for v1.25:
    Ne17
    Whispers of the Fallen is Tier 2 and costs 120 RP (was Tier 1 and 60 RP)

    Also @zaskow: do you see how we could do to make it possible for heroes (e.g. Falenas) to get the full Befriend Animal at level 5 (if they pay for it) instead of Lesser Befriend Animal?

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    #271490

    Hiliadan
    Member

    New priority change:
    GC14a
    Kwapa, Nashac and, Falenas get Awaken Spirit and 2 free points (was nothing in the balance mod and Befriend Animal in the official version)

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    #271501

    Hiliadan
    Member

    New priority changes:
    Ro17a
    Produce Succubi costs 300 RP (was 400 RP) and Produce Shadow Stalker 900 RP (was 800 RP)

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    #271522

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Confirmed for v1.25:
    GC27
    Sunken City’s battle enchantment is Frost Missile (cast every turn on an enemy unit)

    Dr23
    Dreadnoughts get +5 gold/Village

    Ne01b
    Stiffen Limb has a strength 13 Spirit check and cost 7 CP. If it fails, its target gets -12 MP for one turn (was no attack check).

    Ne05i
    Lesser Reanimate Undead is removed for heroes and Leaders and Greater Reanimate Undead is renamed Reanimate Undead.

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