Big issue with RMG/AI use of tunneling – please fix this

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Big issue with RMG/AI use of tunneling – please fix this

This topic contains 9 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  Rodmar18 4 months, 3 weeks ago.

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  • #273883

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    The issue is the following:

    The RMG may produce starting positions in the UG that are CLOSED, that is, to break out of initial confines you NEED to tunnel through diggable walls. This is of course true for ANY UG starting position, human or AI, UG races or not.

    In the extreme case that a human player got this, if there is no unit with tunneling available or in the lineup, a Dreadnought hero might be the last resort, but the AI will be completely stuck, even if it has units with tunneling.

    In other words, no, the AI will not break out of this.

    Which actually means, that the AI isn’t using tunneling at all, not even as a last resort.

    If necessary, I can provide screenshots to show this.

    I suppose, this is somewhat difficult to fix. The only RMG map-constructing solution I see is, to include an overground/underground portal in any enclosed UG space.

    Otherwise, teaching the AI to use tunneling would ge cool, but I suppose that won’t be an easy matter?

    #273884

    Gloweye
    Member

    There’s a cave gate generated for every player starting position. You sure you’re playing with vanilla RMG ?

    I haven’t checked whether there’s a path enforced to said cave, though…

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by  Gloweye.
    #273890

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Look at the pic. This is the throne city of the Dwarven Warlord player. I decided to check on things, because it’s turn 34 now in this game and turns start to take a couple of seconds now for the AI players – except for player 3, so I decided to take a look what was the matter.

    The matter is, as you can see in the pic, that this player’s starting position is REALLY enclosed. The mine in the upper left corner is a dead end, closing the tunnel. There is a lot of diggable earth and an easy to dig exit in the east – but the AI isn’t going for it, even though it has the units to do so.

    As a result, it’s turn 34 and the AI sits with 3 stacks in its one and only towns, doing nothing.

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    #273893

    Graxx
    Member

    Settle a town next to his and leave it empty, he will come to you. Or dig him out lol:P

    However strange that he doesn’t go for the town next to him and from there going on the move. I must mentioned though that on a rare occasion the AI does dig towards one of my towns if they are empty or have a small garrison.

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by  Graxx.
    #273895

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    The problem here is, the AI CANNOT get out without tunneling/digging, because there IS NO clear way out of this. The AI WOULD go, if it could, but it looks like it cannot – or THINKS, it cannot, tunneling being a blank.

    #273898

    Graxx
    Member

    They are not going to fix it anymore anyways, to busy with there next installment.It is also just a rare problem that they probably not going fix anyways with the next path.

    #273900

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    It’s a serious bug, because it can cripple a game in SP – no opponent. It should at least be looked into.

    #273923

    Rodmar18
    Member

    It looks like another RMG “fortune of war”. Wouldn’t a similar case occur when a starting town is surrounded by lava/water/high mountains on the surface map? Depending of the race/class combination, A.I. could be severely slowed down as well for sure.

    Can you confirm that the Dwarf A.I. has currently any tunneling unit? If not, and as a patch is unlikely to come out, perhaps giving every A.I. player a Builder could better the situation. Or is the A.I. really unable to use its tunneling unit because of the depth of the diggable terrain, and no goal (free hex, cave entrance, site, etc.) is seen inside its vision range (including its troops’ vision range)?

    #273941

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    If you check the screenshot you’ll see that the AI only need to dig ONE hex to the East, where the independent Dwarven town is located, to “get free”. I can also confirm that the AI has a Prospector and a couple of Firstborn.

    The screenshot in this post is 10 turns or so later. As you can see the AI has Firstborn (and in the other 3 stacks there are more Firstborn und Prospectors).

    The AI doesn’t do Builders. Also – consider, that for us human players, when we have a tunneling unit in a stack, there is a movement path through the diggable wall! So the path shouldn’t even show as blocked for the AI here in this case.

    Of course, if it was an Orc town, the player (human or AI) would be in trouble and depend on getting a Dread hero.

    I don’t think it should even be a question fo fix this, the real question is actually HOW to fix it.
    Ideally, imo, the RMG (there is no RMG changing mod in use in this game) shouldn’t build something like that – but the snag here is, that what it built is actually valid, considering that the starting position in question is a DWARVEN one (I would consider diggable walls not a problem for a DWARVEN starting position), which means, it’s actually not clear whether the RMG would come up with a comparable starting position for any OTHER race than Dwarf. What IS clear, though, is the fact that the AI for some reason or other isn’t moving in this situation, and I consider this a serious, well, let’s call it a FLAW.

    Also considering that the movement routines of the AI generally seem to be in need of adjustment (with a view on Planetfall), it might be quite useful to look at this.

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by  Jolly Joker.
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    #273946

    Rodmar18
    Member

    By the way, does the A.I. ever split a stack to optimize the movement of all the units within, to merge them later when the terrain is again favorable to all?

    If not, is this a case where a single tunneling unit would pass through mud walls (doesn’t a single Giant Beetle head for you on sight ?), but a stack full of tunnelers plus one single Axeman would ignore any possible path through such walls, because it would only move like the slowest of its units, and much more, only through passable terrain that each individual unit may walk through? I mean that perhaps, a lava patch could have the same blocking effect if the A.I. doesn’t know that it may reduce its stack into an all-First Born stack. If the concern really takes roots here, then could it be solved through scripting? (i.e. “If a stack can’t move and no enemy is nearby, then split the stack into same movement category units and try to reach a nearby destination. If new hexes are visited this way, then wait and regroup. Loop.”)

    Or, investigate why the A.I. sends (does it?) swimming or flying scouts on island maps when it’s time to expand, and why it doesn’t send tunneling scouts on subterranean map (especially if it’s starting town is underground).

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