Chaos Rift is game breaking

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Chaos Rift is game breaking

This topic contains 35 replies, has 28 voices, and was last updated by  Ichthyic 4 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #73102

    Jaduggar
    Member

    This spell is just absurdly OP, and before you even start to tell me… yes, i know you can disjunct it, it doesnt matter.

    First off, 50 mana is too low for a spell which does such insane damage every turn with no end in sight. Maybe if it only hit one target each round, or maybe if it had no AOE… sure, that might be ok. But even then, the minion summons are just overkill.

    I get that the sorcerer should have access to stronger spells, that makes sense, but any spell which summons minions each round should still have a turn limit on it like all of the other classes equivalents do.

    If you are playing as the sorcerer, you can cheat the enemy out of every city on the map with no effort. simply send a unit to invade their city, cast chaos rift, and wait it out. The enemy will never leave their walls and will simply take the hits. If any enemies are present with lightning immunity, you can finish them off with your summons after the rest have perished.

    If you are playing AGAINST a sorcerer, and he casts this spell, you either have to disjunct it immediately, or you lose. You cannot win with this spell active unless you have seriously high lightning resistance. More than once i have lost enormous armies to this spell, simply because i was a few crystals short of disjunction, when the fight would otherwise have been a cakewalk.

    When someone has access to this spell, it changes the course of the game. Once it has been researched, every battle afterwards falls under its influence, and it makes the game either very frustrating or absurdly easy, depending on whether or not it is you who has it.

    The developers need to nerf this spell, or simply remove/replace it. I suggest one of the following:

    A) dramatically reduce the damage of the spell, either by removing the AOE or the number of times it strikes per turn
    B) increase the mana cost to 100 crystals, so that no other spells can be cast along with it, and the leader will not be able to project it into spells (EDIT:battles) he/she does not participate in
    C) place a turn limit on it, 3 or 4 turns tops
    D) place some sort of dangerous drawback, such as making the casters own units vulnerable to the AOE damage, or making the summons neutral mobs which attack everyone
    E) add some sort of ongoing mana cost, like 8-10 per turn, so that the spell will drain itself out in time
    or
    F) require the players leader to be present, and require them to maintain the spell each turn so that being struck or engaged will interupt the spell

    EDIT: also, i want to point out that when you are defending against an attack you do not get the chance to disjunct it before it begins doing damage. The defenders turn is considered turn 1, and when the attacked casts a “per turn” spell, it will trigger before the defenders next turn.

    #73123

    Nerdfish
    Member

    I don’t think there is anything wrong using it against AI emperors, because you are merely cheating the way they do.

    I can see why it’s unbeatable in MP 😀

    #73136

    darvon
    Member

    Emperor AI just has a 50% +20 global resource boost, and it’s trivially easy to beat even without cheese.

    #73137

    Jerm
    Member

    a) The spell should cost a lot
    b) The spell should have a turn limit.
    c) The spell should be a high priority for you to disjunct or it will change the course of the battle as its a top level spell.
    d) The spell should have a change to not be disjunct causing max damage.
    e) Damage should be limited but not totally nerved beyond use. Sorcerers need them for balance too.

    #73232

    Steven Aus
    Member

    Devs, what do you think about Chaos Rift and the suggestions offered in this thread?

    #73239

    Riukulehto
    Member

    Just a short comment,

    I dont think this needs nerf. It has some good easy counters, and with big stacs earth and fire allhitter spells do more damage and are much more abusable

    All elementals are immune. Elemental stack has only summons to worry.

    Theocrats exalted. Great many of them die, but you get them back.

    Multiple attacks on one turn. Just hoard your units over a longer period of time. Attack 3-5 cities on a single turn. If you are already faling behind you have done probably something wrong, sorcerer is strong end game, but in early game easily beatable.

    I personally think that its good that different leaders are good in early and late game.

    #73248

    Riukulehto
    Member

    Also:

    If sorcerer rifts all the time, he cant have that many horrors flying around. Playing a warlord you will have stronger and better units out if sorcerer goes balls deep in rifts.

    #73251

    Steven Aus
    Member

    The AI would still need to be fixed so that it doesn’t allow all its units to be killed.

    #73254

    Sloul
    Member
    #73256

    Arcador
    Member

    Tombles said they have an eye on this one. Probably will see some changes in the next update.

    edit: the other one as well (I hope)

    #73267

    Sloul
    Member

    Rift cost 100 when your leader is not in party, dispel cost 50.
    Hellfire kills all your army, no dispel possible.

    Maybe rift is broken, but then, many other things are.

    #73278

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    In the 1.09 patch the research cost for Chaos Rift (as well as Hellfire and Earthquake) has been pushed up enormously. I believe Chaos Rift costs 3000 knowledge now (it was 500 or something before).

    For the patch after that, I believe the casting cost has been increased to 60 to make it much harder to cast it twice. I’ve made a case for the relevent designer to keep an eye on this thread so we can read your feedback about any other changes being needed.

    One thing is that Chaos Rift, like other end game spells, is actually designed to be game breaking. If you allow a player to get to the very late game where they can afford to spend 10-15 turns to research Chaos Rift (or Age Of Deception or any other tier 7 spell), then they’re supposed to have a huge advantage. It’s a sort of makeshift technology victory. It’s possible this design philosophy wasn’t a good idea though and we may need to change course on it.

    #73290

    Jerm
    Member

    Tombles, I actually like the idea of end game spells which if players being able to research them should give them a huge advantage.

    I think pushing up the research and casting cost does make it fair. Just like Spell of Mastery in MOM.

    I like that each class has its own OP stuff. Please don’t overnerf them.

    Let it be a war of OP stuff between factions!

    #73364

    Hehaw
    Member

    The problem I see with Chaos Rift is that it is very binary. It is either extremely strong if not disjunctioned, or completely worthless if it is. The problem is that Disjunction is so ridiculously OP this time around; it should cost more than the spell it is removing, or some other restriction.

    #73371

    terrahero
    Member

    Well the idea of a powerful spell is that it has to be disjuncted. Which causes a boring interaction, one side does A and the otherside must do B.

    Untill we get to a point where the other side cannot B when A is being done, and then its almost a default victory for A.

    #73375

    Sloul
    Member

    The problem I see with Chaos Rift is that it is very binary. It is either extremely strong if not disjunctioned, or completely worthless if it is. The problem is that Disjunction is so ridiculously OP this time around; it should cost more than the spell it is removing, or some other restriction.

    For global spells I say yes.

    #73384

    Taykor
    Member

    I believe Chaos Rift costs 3000 knowledge now (it was 500 or something before).

    I hope it is not 3000 knowledge and a major research cut down at the same time…

    Please don’t overnerf them.

    Second that. I am beginning to understand people in topics like ‘Fun over balance’. If Warlord’s way to play (tons of units) is the only one it would be extremely boring.

    it should cost more than the spell it is removing

    I agree. Tombles said that the designers are against randomness in this spell, but at least cost increasing would be nice.

    #73427

    Epaminondas
    Member

    One thing is that Chaos Rift, like other end game spells, is actually designed to be game breaking. If you allow a player to get to the very late game where they can afford to spend 10-15 turns to research Chaos Rift (or Age Of Deception or any other tier 7 spell), then they’re supposed to have a huge advantage. It’s a sort of makeshift technology victory. It’s possible this design philosophy wasn’t a good idea though and we may need to change course on it.

    Yeah, I’ve never been favor of instant, gimmicky “I-win” buttons.

    #73501

    Jomungur
    Member

    It’s not an I win button. It probably shouldn’t summon troops. But it can be disjoined, and can’t be cast twice in battle under most circumstances. If you weaken it too much, it will be never be worth researching at 3000 points and people will ignore it.

    #73508

    Epaminondas
    Member

    I’d definitely be down with that.

    #73573

    PurpleFanta
    Member

    After it’s patched as the Dev said it would be, I believe that the spell wouldnt really be gamebreaking, its more that the AI doesnt know what to do when it’s been cast. It’s completely abusable, but if you dont like it, dont abuse it.

    All of the global spells ARE pretty crazy powerful. The Sorcerer has a limited amount of battles he/she can crush with per turn chaos rift. Where as global spells can effect EVERY battle that takes place while the spell is in effect. You can launch multiple attacks on a Sorcerer, they cant cast the spell 4 times in one turn. (once patched of course) The sorcerer has to chose which battles to use chaos rift on.

    A rogue could have multiple hidden armies around the Sorcerer’s armies/cities. If the Sorcerer doesnt know how many fights they’re going to have to go through, you can bait out the chaos rift and then come back with another army, the same turn, and they’d have to cast it again, or not be able to due to casting points.

    That’s just my take. I agree that chaos rift is very abusable. But you dont have to abuse it in single player, and it can be outplayed in Multiplayer. I realize that sometimes you dont have the luxury or resources to do so, but that’s how multiplayer works, you have to keep up.

    #73581

    Chop123
    Member

    Judging by the sensationalized titles of every thread on this forum, everything in the game is broken completely and unplayable.

    Why can’t people learn a different rhetoric, and perhaps the right people might even bother to read the wall of text to find out what is going on.

    #73611

    Renegade35
    Member

    It is the usual way of hysterical exaggeration and blatant attention-seeking, most commonly found between the rampant competitive multiplayer “Balance Boy” crowd, that… politely put, “frequents” most of the respective, popular forum sites.

    Nothing new to see here. Move along, good folk.

    #73625

    apopov
    Member

    One thing is that Chaos Rift, like other end game spells, is actually designed to be game breaking. If you allow a player to get to the very late game where they can afford to spend 10-15 turns to research Chaos Rift (or Age Of Deception or any other tier 7 spell), then they’re supposed to have a huge advantage. It’s a sort of makeshift technology victory. It’s possible this design philosophy wasn’t a good idea though and we may need to change course on it.

    I like this design idea and am looking at spells and abilities like this with “fun over balance” mindset.

    I would prefer that AI is taught to better react to these, than they be nerfed.

    #73749

    Kilo24
    Member

    Regarding Chaos Rift and other endgame spells/units:
    As I understand it, the big reason to have technological victories instead of something more gradual is that it replaces a drawn-out endgame with a quick, dramatic victory that remains tense to the last moment. I fully understand why it’s not just an instant victory for dumping like 5000 research into a spell – those types of victories are not particularly flavorful nor do they invite much counterplay – but as powerful as these end-game spells are, they’re not powerful enough to significantly cut down on the length of the endgame. Each of them provide major advantages (the Sorcerer’s global somewhat less so), but none of them are so overwhelming that they bring the game to an end quickly.

    Am I saying to buff them dramatically? No. That would change their functionality to the point of becoming new spells. Moreover, I’m really not sure that putting a timer like that on the game fits well with the rest of it; it’s going to be extremely hard to find a flat research value that will be meaningful for both the XL surface + underground maps with 8 players and medium maps with 4, and it would take the focus off of a high-stakes tactical battle (AoW3’s biggest strength) ending the game.

    In my opinion, if you want a “tech” victory, it should involve at least one new global spell. High casting cost, high research cost, maybe force it to be researched only after every other spell has been researched, whatever makes it hard to get. But everybody needs to be able to get it or at least a version of it. Said spell would grant vision of all leaders (even if they’re concealed) and all throne cities. Maybe it could prevent leaders from resurrecting too or each class-specific version could have massive unique benefits like their current ultimates, but the big thing is the vision. That way, you can send armies directly to the leader and the throne city and end the game with an exciting battle instead of mucking through endless cities in a search for two moving targets.

    Right now, the end game is playing whack-a-mole to find the enemy leader and throne city, and in big maps we can’t see half or more of the places the mole will pop up. We might be able to address the two issues simultaneously: endgame research not ending the game and the difficulty finding the leader + throne city making the game quite long.

    #73802

    Unahim
    Member

    At some points, games need to end. Powerful end-game spells are one way in which this happens (though I don’t see myself ever allowing a MP game to carry on that long). Perhaps chaos rift needs to be toned down a bit, but I don’t think the overall philosophy if bad.

    #73805

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

    Tombles have faith.

    This is an expensive spell, ditto hellfire.

    I don’t think it is OP anyway, and besides, if you can cast these in the manner outlined in the original post, then you have already won and are mopping up, true both in multiplayer and singleplayer, in which case, it is doing it’s job!

    It’s not a gimmicky “I win” button, it’s a way to cement your advantage and push for victory. It’s roughly analogous to a nuke.

    Next we’ll be hearing that the Mana core is op as well…

    #73807

    esvath
    Member

    One thing is that Chaos Rift, like other end game spells, is actually designed to be game breaking. If you allow a player to get to the very late game where they can afford to spend 10-15 turns to research Chaos Rift (or Age Of Deception or any other tier 7 spell), then they’re supposed to have a huge advantage. It’s a sort of makeshift technology victory. It’s possible this design philosophy wasn’t a good idea though and we may need to change course on it.

    I agree with this philosophy. Just push the research cost, so that the late game spells will be researched at late game, not middle game like now. But please, do not nerf the effects.

    So what if a powerful Sorcerer managed to open chaos rift? A Dreadnought can use Destabilize Mana Core for same destructive effects. Theocrats can use their spells and units to wreck havoc. Nerfing them all makes late game lost its appeal, and does not give incentives to player to pursue research dilligently.

    #73812

    eSmokefish
    Member

    So who can get access to Chaos Rift easier if the incredible increase in research above is implemented; A Sorcerer Leader, or a Sorcerer Hero?

    Personally I think toning down the effects of Hellfire, Earthquake and Chaos Rift would be more appropriate than making them “mop-up endgame phase only”. Not much, just a little; gradual change rather than drastic is prefered in my opinion.

    Edit: As for Destabilized Mana Core, I’d think 2 turns before it blows is plenty time to disjunct it, but I cannot comment for sure as I haven’t used it yet.

    #73834

    vyolin
    Member

    I like this notion of a research victory in disguise. Much more enthralling than waiting from turn 100 to turn 130 to win automagically. I would take an ‘I will open a portal to the void and explode you into a thousand little kibbles’-tech over an ‘I win’-tech every day of the week. Very thematic and as it seems just as possible to be balanced.

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