Class units diversity (post 1.5 discussion)

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Class units diversity (post 1.5 discussion)

This topic contains 142 replies, has 23 voices, and was last updated by  Zaskow 3 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #185028

    Zaskow
    Member

    Greetings!
    My asking about moving old topic here was ignored, so I decided to begin a new one.
    Now I’m trying to review abilities of class units for new races. Dev made great work making them as diverse as possible, but not for all.
    Also there is a lot of “old” units haven’t any additional abilities. I’m talking about Musketeers, Scoundrels, Martyrs, Exalted, Scouts, Phalanx. This are lines with the most identical units.
    So, let’s begin! Proposals, counterproposals, suggestions, opinions are welcomed and strongly recommended.
    I don’t say much about new class necro units, coz only a few of them left without additional stats or abilities.
    My suggestions:
    Tigran Reanimator – Magic Bolts instead Black bolts. Yes, it’s not so “dark” as should, but Human Reanimator has larger spirit damage. IMO, alternative damage for necro will be good.
    Draconian Death Bringer – Improved Wall Climbing. All Draco infantry has this.
    Dwarf Death Bringer – Defensive strike. I hope this will be not very imbalanced.
    Elf Death Bringer – ?
    Maybe, add them shock damage, instead poison and make a light version of Elven Manticore Riders?
    SCOUTS
    I decided to give them different concealments fitting with racial favorite terrain or additional walking options. What sense in scout which can’t hide in native terrain?
    Draconian – Volcanic Concealment OR/AND Lava walking
    Dwarf – Mountain Concealment OR/AND Improved Mountaineering
    Goblin – Cave OR/AND Wetlands Concealment
    Halfling – Temperate Concealment
    Elf – Forest Concealment
    Human – Water Concealment
    Orc – Barren Concealment
    Frostling – Arctic Concealment
    Tigran – Tropic Concealment

    Old units suggestions

    Archdruid
    Hunters:
    Draconian Hunters – Immolating projectiles
    Dwarf Hunters – Armored (like racial archer) OR Projectile Resistance (typical ability amongst many dwarf units) OR Heavy crossbow
    Goblin Hunters – poison arrows – +2 blight range damage, -2 range physical damage OR Poison darts
    Halfling Hunters – Monster slayer (like adventurer) OR slingshot would be better, but requires model and animation changes
    Frostling – Arctic Concealment (good enough or need one more ability???)
    Shamans:
    Human – spirit rays instead OR in addition to poison bolts (like racial support with spirit damage and draconian shaman) OR Bane fire
    Dreadnought
    Engineers:
    Halfling – no idea
    Elf – Stunning touch?
    Frostling – blunderbuss with frost damage?
    Tigran – ?
    Musketeers
    Draconian – inflict scorching heat OR/and inflict immolation (maybe after medal – veteran, expert)
    Dwarf – Projectile Resistance (typical ability amongst many dwarf units)
    Goblin – volunteer on veteran (typical ability for goblin units)
    Halfling – dazzled on elite (like racial archer)
    Elf – yes, we have Forest Concealment, but I think it’s better for Elven musket another upgrade. Just make upgrade on Veteran, Expert and Elite giving +2 range damage, not 1. In sum we have elite Elven musketeer with 33 damage (+10% comparing with other racial elite musketeers). I think, this addition fits with elves as best archer better.
    Human – +2 spirit range damage on elite medal (blessed bullets)
    Orc – razor projectiles OR Warcry. Warcry can make orc musketeers decent melee attackers when they are in trouble.
    Frostling – ?
    Tigran – ?
    Rogue
    Assassins
    Elf – Martial arts on Elite OR/AND 20% Blight protection (Assassins work a lot with different poisons)
    Bards
    Draconian – Fire Bomb
    Human – swimming
    Orc – sprint on veteran OR razor projectiles
    Frostling – ?
    Tigran – ?
    Scoundrels
    Draconian – Improved wall climbing (like assassins)
    Dwarf – cave and mountains concealment OR Heavy Crossbow
    Halfling – Slingshot
    Elf – ?
    Orc – War cry (on medal – veteran/expert)
    Frostling – Arctic Concealment OR Improved wall climbing (like raiders)
    Succubus
    Dwarf – Projectile Resistance
    Halfling – Minor bard skills on medal (veteran) OR Throw misfortune
    Human – Bestow Iron Heart on veteran (healing flying support for rogue, why not?)
    Sorcerer
    Apprentice
    Human – ?
    Tigran – Magic bolts (yes, this is nerf but possible make them cheaper)
    Theocrat
    Crusaders
    Elf – Martial arts on Elite???
    Human – overwhelm on veteran or from beginning (human longswordman)
    Evangelists
    Goblin – Weakening (good synergy with other goblin units) or your variant???
    Orc – Curse Or Bane fire
    Frostling – Frost Bolts
    Tigran – Magic Bolts
    Martyrs
    Draconian – +1-2 fire melee damage, -1 melee physical damage (agreed, boring variant, so suggest alternative)
    Dwarf – Projectile Resistance
    Elf – +1-2 shock melee damage, -1 melee physical damage (same as with draco)
    Human – swimming OR spirit blast (lesser spirit elemental’s attack)
    Orc – sprint on expert
    Frostling – Throw Ice Ball
    Tigran – Pounce OR Inflict Bleeding Wounds
    Exalted
    Draconian – Projectile Resistance (like crushers and fliers)
    Dwarf – Defensive strike (like other dwarf infantry, maybe on veteran if you think OP)
    Goblin – volunteer on elite (racial infantry and pikeman) OR Life drain
    Halfling – backstab
    Elf – no idea
    Tigran – Bloodthirsty
    Warlord
    Berserkers
    Goblin – Disgusting Stench OR Demolisher
    Halfling – backstab on elite (racial infantry)
    Elf – ?
    Human – Inflict Crippling Wounds on veteran???
    Monster hunters
    Draconian – immolating projectiles
    Elf – ?
    Human – no idea
    Orc – sprint on veteran/expert/elite
    Dwarf – Armored (like a Boar rider) OR Shoot heavy crossbow
    Goblin – Poison arrows – +2 blight range damage, -1 physical range damage OR Overwhelm (Like Warg rider)
    Frostling – Frost melee attack (frost warg mount because)
    Tigran – Immolating projectiles
    Phalanx
    Draconian – Charge (like racial pikeman)
    Halfling – ?
    Elf – +2 shock damage (like Union Guard)
    Human – Overwhelm (racial halberdier)
    Orc – War cry (like other orcs)
    Warbreed
    Draconian – inflict scorching heat OR/AND inflict immolation
    Dwarf – Defensive strike (still maybe a bit OP)
    Halfling – backstab on expert/elite???
    Elf – Good Morale +200 or First Strike (with medal probably)???

    THE END.
    Wait for your suggestions and opinions!

    #186458

    Zaskow
    Member

    Bump…

    #186861

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    I’ll check this out later Zaskow, for now you might find this interesting:

    http://aow3db.tumblr.com/

    It’s not 100% finished, and not 100% accurate, but it has a cool thing where unique racial variants are marked in purple. So you can quickly see which racial unit has what.

    Also, we already gave Human Reanimators extra melee spirit damage 🙂

    #186933

    Bob5
    Member

    How about fire protection for Tigran Engineer? Could help them take less damage from friendly fire AoE.

    Btw, Tigran Assassins are already extremely racially unique, they’re basically Prowlers on steroids, they get Improved Wall Climbing, Coup de Grace, Bloodthirsty, and Pounce on gold instead of Pass Wall. The only thing Prowlers have over them is price tag and Martial Arts.

    Magic Bolts on Tigran Evangelist I don’t really like, it’s more of a Draconian kind of thing to get huge ranged damage on every support. I’d like something like stack Tropical Concealment or entire stack likes tropical clime.

    #187141

    Zaskow
    Member

    I’ll check this out later Zaskow, for now you might find this interesting:

    Thanks!

    http://aow3db.tumblr.com/

    It’s not 100% finished, and not 100% accurate, but it has a cool thing where unique racial variants are marked in purple. So you can quickly see which racial unit has what.

    Nice thing! But I trust ingame encyclopedia more. 🙂

    Btw, Tigran Assassins are already extremely racially unique, they’re basically Prowlers on steroids, they get Improved Wall Climbing, Coup de Grace, Bloodthirsty, and Pounce on gold instead of Pass Wall. The only thing Prowlers have over them is price tag and Martial Arts.

    Wrong copypast, sorry.

    Magic Bolts on Tigran Evangelist I don’t really like, it’s more of a Draconian kind of thing to get huge ranged damage on every support. I’d like something like stack Tropical Concealment or entire stack likes tropical clime.

    Humans also have range attack. 🙂
    Anyway, tigran racial support (mystic) hasn’t a lot of skills to choose – magic bolts and transformation.
    Tropical Concealment or entire stack likes tropical clime isn’t a big deal and not very easy to do for devs, I suppose.

    #187217

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Humans also have range attack. 🙂

    The Human Evangelist is also a very, very easily logical conclusion of the Human Priest. The latter of which is even naturally Devout! Heck, if any one Evangelist only deserved a ranged attack, it would be the Human.

    #187288

    Zaskow
    Member

    Range attack make Evangelist more universal unit. I want to have more free variants to choose. Honestly, now it’s small sense to choose Elven or Frostling. Every units must be equally good amongst line or at least not far better than others.

    #188088

    ArcaneSeraph
    Member

    Just popped in to say I highly support these kind of changes. Not overpowering but nice diversity.

    Units like the frostling martyr are screaming for something due to their similarity to royal guard and ice ball is a nice touch.

    Evangelists in general too are very similar amongst the races so varied range attacks (even with no level up boosts) or additional buffs / debuffs only open up strategies and that’s just a good thing!

    I like options! It makes the game so much strategically deeper.

    #188102

    AD
    Hunters:
    Draconian Hunters – Immolating projectiles (On gold)
    Goblin Hunters – Poison darts
    Shamans:
    Human – Spirit Rays would be in line with the Evangelist changes so fair play, but the more pertinent upgrade would be giving it Water Concealment so that it plays with the synergy with Human Hunters. Would be very disappointing if it didn’t to be frank.

    The upgrade to the Halfling Hunter was poorly thought out tbh. Monster slayer? We get that from Favored Enemy. Feels like a missed opportunity more than anything

    #188124

    Akinaba
    Member

    AD<br>
    Shamans:<br>
    Human – Spirit Rays would be in line with the Evangelist changes so fair play, but the more pertinent upgrade would be giving it Water Concealment so that it plays with the synergy with Human Hunters. Would be very disappointing if it didn’t to be frank.

    Maybe giving him some water damage would be wiser then transforming their ranged attack to that sompletely? Since 2 dmg channels better then one. Or give him Spirit Rays alongside with current range attack, like they did to Draconians (but no Water Concealement then).

    The upgrade to the Halfling Hunter was poorly thought out tbh. Monster slayer? We get that from Favored Enemy. Feels like a missed opportunity more than anything

    Don’t complain, man, since in example Orc Archers do not benefit from Hunter Finesse at all.

    #188129

    Is it not a poorly thought out ability? All I’m saying is that it could be better

    #188134

    Zaskow
    Member

    Feel free to suggest better ideas.

    #188135

    Akinaba
    Member

    Is it not a poorly thought out ability? All I’m saying is that it could be better

    Oh I ment giving them some spirit damage. However that does not interract with Poison Spit at all… And I do think it’s interesting way of thought.

    #188145

    Sharpnessism
    Member

    Range attack make Evangelist more universal unit. I want to have more free variants to choose. Honestly, now it’s small sense to choose Elven or Frostling. Every units must be equally good amongst line or at least not far better than others.

    I think it is better if every unit is unique in some way but it is untrue that they must all be equal. For example, there are 0 times where I would want to build Orc Razorbow over Elf Archer. Razorbow has more HP and melee damage but I don’t build ranged units to walk into melee or tank. I don’t think anything is wrong with this… some races are supposed to be better at certain roles.

    #188163

    On the Halfling Hunter:
    The Halfling AD archetype as a whole feels like a ‘nearly men’ situation. Their racial advantages with the AD include liking dense vegetation and +1 ranged damage, yet these same attributes are shared with the HE, making them a second choice at nearly every aspect, since the HEs have strong archer perks. The one aspect that they do shine in is excellent synergy with ‘One with the Elements’ which grants better morale. I think if the Halfling Hunter is to be buffed (and perhaps make it a viable alternative to HEs) it should gain ‘Very Lucky’ at Gold to capitalize on this increased morale.

    Bear in mind that the strongest choices for AD in general hangs much on the strength of their Hunters more so than Shamans (HE, Orcs, Tigrans), thus a strong Halfling Hunter is highly desirable if Halflings are to get out of this ‘nearly men’ situation.

    #188189

    Very lucky seems like a good idea.

    #188232

    Zaskow
    Member

    What about monster hunter trait? Remove it?

    #188248

    Akinaba
    Member

    What about monster hunter trait? Remove it?

    On my pow Monster Hunter is better, and the fact that HH does not benefit from Fav.Enemy upgrade does not matter much since it still gets the rest of the upgrades.

    Speaking of units diversity. That does seem like Scouts didn’t had any touch of diversity yet. And the first and the obcious proposition is:
    * Ork scouts recieve either War Cry, or Sprint.

    #188256

    Zaskow
    Member

    Speaking of units diversity. That does seem like Scouts didn’t had any touch of diversity yet. And the first and the obcious proposition is:
    * Ork scouts recieve either War Cry, or Sprint.

    You missed word SCOUTS in first post. 🙂

    #188270

    NINJEW
    Member

    I believe scouts were given concealment early in the beta, then had it removed because Warlords with Really Good Scouts became pretty OP. I heard they got repeatedly nerfed into the ground until we got our current, functional-and-spammable scouts.

    Scouting is really the biggest weakpoint of Warlord so you need to be careful with giving them buffs. The Warlord Scout as it has very little combat capabilities (other scouts all have something making them useful in combat), but since they’re produced instead of summoned the Warlord can spam his scouts around like no one’s business to make up for their individually poor ability.

    Something like concealment would make Warlord Scouts good at avoiding scout-sniping, which might be too much of an advantage if opponents can’t shut down the Warlord’s scouting easily, when that’s supposed to be the Warlord’s weakness!

    In fact, I don’t believe any other scout units have any kind of concealment (not at all certain on this, please correct me if I’m wrong)

    #188273

    Astraflame
    Member

    Range attack make Evangelist more universal unit. I want to have more free variants to choose. Honestly, now it’s small sense to choose Elven or Frostling. Every units must be equally good amongst line or at least not far better than others.

    Theocrat
    Evangelists

    Orc – Curse Or Bane fire
    Frostling – Frost Bolts
    Tigran – Magic Bolts

    No, no and no ^^ These are not good suggestions IMO, it’s enough that the Human and Draconain Evangelists have a ranged attack. I understand it’s about class unit diversity but this will have the opposite effect, and besides Orcs are pretty OP theocrats already, if you give the Orc evangelist a ranged attack then perhaps the draconian/human crusaders should get Tireless? It’s a homogeneous approach and i don’t like it.

    Curse is also too strong for the orc evangelists, with convert in mind. Besides, that’s why you need orc priests. IMO, something orky but less good can be given, like War cry.

    #188275

    NINJEW
    Member

    Please don’t try to make every class unit of every race equal. It’s ok if Elves have far and away better Mounted Archers than Dwarves do. Where it balances out is that, within the same class lineup, Dwarves get really good Phalanxes, while Elf Phalanxes aren’t very good.

    Try to find good stuff for every race in every class, don’t try to find good stuff for every race in every class unit

    #188278

    NINJEW
    Member

    What the reasoning behind giving Elf Assassins Martial Arts

    #188288

    NINJEW
    Member

    Also why on crusaders

    Did elves become the Jackie Chan race while I wasn’t paying attention

    #188296

    Zaskow
    Member

    I believe scouts were given concealment early in the beta, then had it removed because Warlords with Really Good Scouts became pretty OP.

    I installed 1.5 beta from first day and didn’t see any concealments on scouts.

    What the reasoning behind giving Elf Assassins Martial Arts

    Assassins are elite warriors able to kill ANY target? Why not?

    Also why on crusaders

    Did you notice a “???” marks on them? I placed them because can’t provide better variant and wait for your BETTER suggestions.

    #188306

    NINJEW
    Member

    Ok but why elves? Why are you recommending that for Elves? What about elves makes you think sick kung fu moves? Elves aren’t a melee race, why are you giving them a melee buff? They’re the exact opposite of a melee race!

    Martial Arts is a gigantic melee buff!

    #188322

    NINJEW
    Member

    I installed 1.5 beta from first day and didn’t see any concealments on scouts.

    I’m talking pre-public

    #188413

    NINJEW
    Member

    If we want to give Elf Melee some unique stuff, that also doesn’t give them ludicrous abilities that make them melee monsters on top of ranged monsters, what if we just went the simple multi-channel route? Elves are magical beings, and initiates can swing around their little cattle prod short swords. Make the High Elf Assassin do 9/3/2 damage physical/blight/shock. It’s not a terribly exciting change, but Elf melee shouldn’t be that exciting anyways, that’s missing the point of Elves.

    With this change, flanking becomes even more important, since that extra channel means a more powerful flank, but the more spread out damage will crumble against high resist units that aren’t being flanked. Gives the Elf Assassin a little uniqueness, but doesn’t change how you use them or how your enemies defend against them.

    Tri-channel damage is a big enough deal that you can have some fun with your Elf Assassin, but the point of Assassins is already doing high damage with flanks anyway, and I don’t thiiiiink that’s a very huge boost to their damage? Someone should run the numbers to make sure, I might see about doing that later

    #188513

    Zaskow
    Member

    Tri-channel damage is a big enough deal that you can have some fun with your Elf Assassin, but the point of Assassins is already doing high damage with flanks anyway, and I don’t thiiiiink that’s a very huge boost to their damage? Someone should run the numbers to make sure, I might see about doing that later

    Elf assassins will become Frostling assassins with their frost weapons copypast.
    However, I’m not against this. Just need to hear other opinions…

    #188521

    Zaskow
    Member

    Ok but why elves? Why are you recommending that for Elves? What about elves makes you think sick kung fu moves? Elves aren’t a melee race, why are you giving them a melee buff? They’re the exact opposite of a melee race!

    Why elves are not melee race? They haven’t any attack, defense or HP debuffs like Halflings or Goblin.

    Martial Arts is a gigantic melee buff!

    Only at elite? I don’t think so.

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