Extra racial T3 unit ideas

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Extra racial T3 unit ideas

This topic contains 49 replies, has 21 voices, and was last updated by  Damkac89 4 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #129727

    Epaminondas
    Member

    As I have said multiple times elsewhere, I think the creation of both an additional T3 racial unit slot and an additional T4 class unit slot would improve late game balance and complexity – as well as obviously variety. Since class T4 and racial T4 (I don’t support racial T4s) have been done in other threads, let me present strictly racial T3 ideas.

    A few guidelines or criteria: First, in envisioning these units, I am trying to have units that stay consistent to the AoW 3 racial design philosophy: That is, all racial units must be constituted by the race that the unit represents: So nothing like Gargoyles for Dwarves, or a weaker version of Air Galley to fit T3. Second, I tried to recycle as many as old AoW: SM units as possible. Finally, I don’t want variety for the sake of variety: That is, the unit must do something that the other units in a particular race does not do.

    Human:

    Herbalist: I think the game could use more healers, so her main function would be a healer without having to go the Theocrat route. Perhaps she could have a weaker heal (10 HP?). Blight damage would also be something that the Human roster does not offer.

    Elves:

    Scout (T2): My idea is actually to move Unicorn Rider up to T3 and introduce a new T2: the Scout. The Scout would lack Phase so it would represent a T2 nerf for the Elves, but I think that’s fair.

    Unicorn Rider: It would simply be the current T2 version upgraded.

    Dwarves:

    Mole: The main thing this guy does that the versatile Firstborn doesn’t do is smash walls. He’s also obviously faster.

    Halflings:

    Sheriff: Now this guy does a lot of things that the Eagle Rider does not – pistols and thus ranged damage, bard skills and take a lot more punishment.

    Draconians:

    Crusher: He’d be of course boosted from T2 AoW: SM stats. He would – like the Mole – provide wall crushing prowess, but also generally serve as a tank that the race lacks.

    Goblins:

    Wyvern Rider: He’d provide the speedy, flying option for the Goblins obviously.

    Orcs:

    I am totally stumped here. None of the AoW: SM T3 works, and no promotion of T2s seem to work either.

    #129741

    Draxynnic
    Member

    There’s been a few such discussions on the beta forums. Indication from the devs is that they’d rather focus on bringing in additional factions rather than adding to existing ones, at least for now (keeping in mind that expanding the lists of race units can also increase the work for adding new race units) but for the sake of discussion, here are my thoughts:

    Human:

    Herbalist: I think the game could use more healers, so her main function would be a healer without having to go the Theocrat route. Perhaps she could have a weaker heal (10 HP?). Blight damage would also be something that the Human roster does not offer.

    The human Priest is already the best healer among the racial supports.

    My personal suggestion has been a Witch Hunter-esque unit, which focuses on dealing with supernatural threats (and so has an additional damage channel, such as fire or spirit, for getting past physical resistance, and an appropriate set of Slayer abilities). At the time the proposal was made, I was also suggesting giving the Witch Hunter an ability to mark heretics in TC, making Devout more useful for human non-Theocrats. That’s a little less important now that knights no longer have Devout, though.

    Elves:

    Scout (T2): My idea is actually to move Unicorn Rider up to T3 and introduce a new T2: the Scout. The Scout would lack Phase so it would represent a T2 nerf for the Elves, but I think that’s fair.

    Unicorn Rider: It would simply be the current T2 version upgraded.

    Tbh, the Scout in previous games was pretty boring. I don’t really see much benefit to bringing in additional vanilla cavalry when it’s proving hard enough to make them distinct as it is.

    Personally, what I’d like to see for Elves is a tier 3 support, emphasising their magical nature. My own proposal was something that has Call Lightning, but unlike existing units with Call Lightning (such as Horned Gods and gold-medal Naga Matriarchs) this unit is balanced for having such a powerful ability by not bringing much else to the field (stats no better than gold Storm Sisters, and it may be possible to evolve from Storm Sisters to this).

    Dwarves:

    Mole: The main thing this guy does that the versatile Firstborn doesn’t do is smash walls. He’s also obviously faster.

    Moleriders are a shoo-in for an additional dwarf T3. If introduced, though, I imagine firstborn would lose their digging ability as this devolves back to the moles.

    Halflings:

    Sheriff: Now this guy does a lot of things that the Eagle Rider does not – pistols and thus ranged damage, bard skills and take a lot more punishment.

    I’m… kinda inclined to think that pistolier pony riders fits a similar idea, and having too much technology on halflings without being a dreadnought seems inappropriate to me. Plus, having eagle riders plus t3 ground cavalry would, I think, make them overlap with the goblin proposal a bit, as both races would then end up with t3 flying cavalry and t3 ground cavalry, and while that works for goblins, I don’t think halflings should be such a cavalry-focused race. I’m at a loss for alternative suggestions, though.

    Draconians:

    Crusher: He’d be of course boosted from T2 AoW: SM stats. He would – like the Mole – provide wall crushing prowess, but also generally serve as a tank that the race lacks.

    I generally think of the draconian Warbreed as being the equivalent of the AoW2 Crusher. Breeding from giants works for other races, but due to the dragon-giant animosity, I don’t think it works for draconians.

    The general focus has been on giving draconians a firebreathing unit. It’s worth noting that the physical variation among draconians gives a little more room to maneouver – one possibility could be something that resembles a stunted dragon which is still technically a draconian (it comes about from a draconian breeding project aiming to recover true dragons from draconian stock), similar in appearance to the AoW2 Slithers.

    Goblins:

    Wyvern Rider: He’d provide the speedy, flying option for the Goblins obviously.

    It’s worth noting that the wyverns the goblins rode in previous installments are distinct from the AoW3 wyverns (which are young true dragons – green and brown wyverns, on the other hand, were disavowed cousins). Personally, for this reason, I’d have preferred for Triumph to go with ‘drakes’ for what are now called ‘wyverns’, but that’s neither here nor there.

    Wyvern riders are, I think, nearly as emblematic for goblins as Big Beetles. A few people have suggested Butchers, but I think the Wyvern Rider is a better fit.

    Orcs:

    I am totally stumped here. None of the AoW: SM T3 works, and no promotion of T2s seem to work either.

    You’re not alone in that respect. A few suggestions have flown around for a dire bat handler (pun not in…premeditated), but this is somewhat of a back-door means of bypassing the racial design philosophy rather than truly working within it. Abominations were technically orcs (in the same way that firstborn are technically dwarfs) but there are several problems with them – to me, they’re representative of nascent druidic tendencies among the orcs, for orcs that are lead by archdruids they’re made redundant by shamans, and orcs that aren’t lead by archdruids wouldn’t have the capability to make them. There’s also the moral issues – orcs with a leader that isn’t at least somewhat evil probably would not allow their creation.

    #129746

    Fogcrow
    Member

    For Orcs, I could imagine T3 sword and shield Infantry(since that’s something the game currently hasn´t). To make them more distinctive, we could give them a little more resistence than the average orc(with weird shamanic glyphs of warding all over shield and armor) and perhaps summon slayer.

    #129769

    My personal suggestion has been a Witch Hunter-esque unit, which focuses on dealing with supernatural threats (and so has an additional damage channel, such as fire or spirit, for getting past physical resistance, and an appropriate set of Slayer abilities). At the time the proposal was made, I was also suggesting giving the Witch Hunter an ability to mark heretics in TC, making Devout more useful for human non-Theocrats. That’s a little less important now that knights no longer have Devout, though.

    I also liked the witch hunter. You could give them innate devout, so they work in teams: one marks, and the other engages in close. Obvious boost for anyone with a theocrat hero, and a way for mana starved theocrats to cheaply mark heretics.

    Personally, what I’d like to see for Elves is a tier 3 support, emphasising their magical nature. My own proposal was something that has Call Lightning, but unlike existing units with Call Lightning (such as Horned Gods and gold-medal Naga Matriarchs) this unit is balanced for having such a powerful ability by not bringing much else to the field (stats no better than gold Storm Sisters, and it may be possible to evolve from Storm Sisters to this).

    I’d actually rather see something else dark elf like. A blade dancer comes to mind as a projectile resistance, martial arts, close in attack person.

    An alternative would be to make the herbalist an elf rather than a human, an Apothecary. They’d function as an anti blight doctor: they’d have a cooldown ability to grant 40% blight protection, cure disease, a passive heal of +3 per turn for all units with no combat use (or stacking), and they’d have “hurl flasks”. This would also be on a cooldown.

    these would (fired at short range) debuff within a firebomb like radius with a 9 strength resistance check with -2 def and -2 resistance for 2 turns. They would work by bursting on units, releasing a powder made up of various plants. It would functionally be tear gas.

    Essentially, they are meant to accompany hunter stacks/Horse archers, or protect elves against goblins/orc priests/archdruids.

    For halflings, I actually think a t-3 sword and shield unit would fit nicely. No unit in the Halfling lineup quite meets the “Merry and Pipin” taller halfling type. You could call them thanes.

    They’d have mail, helms, and oval shields. They’d have decent melee damage, high resistance, mind control immunity, and they’d be able to get up to 10% physical protection (so they’d halve the penalty).

    the lore would be other halflings making fun of them for being serious all the time, and talking only in heroic language.

    For orcs, I think a shaolin warrior type would be cool, a Sōhei. So a single unit, high resistance, mind control immunity, fairly low damage (they use a wooden bo staff), first strike, martial arts, and projectile resistance. low innate defense since they shun armor.

    at medal, the unit could get tireless and fast healing (mind over matter).

    #129779

    Epaminondas
    Member

    There’s been a few such discussions on the beta forums. Indication from the devs is that they’d rather focus on bringing in additional factions rather than adding to existing ones, at least for now (keeping in mind that expanding the lists of race units can also increase the work for adding new race units) but for the sake of discussion, here are my thoughts:

    Interesting. Frankly, an extra racial T3 or class T4 would improve the game-play and immersion far more than another race.

    The human Priest is already the best healer among the racial supports.

    I realize that, but I think the game generally needs more heals – but this is an idiosyncratic view that opposes faster combat in general. For instance, I think all support units should’ve had Theocrat-support like heals.

    My personal suggestion has been a Witch Hunter-esque unit, which focuses on dealing with supernatural threats (and so has an additional damage channel, such as fire or spirit, for getting past physical resistance, and an appropriate set of Slayer abilities). At the time the proposal was made, I was also suggesting giving the Witch Hunter an ability to mark heretics in TC, making Devout more useful for human non-Theocrats. That’s a little less important now that knights no longer have Devout, though.

    This could also work as well.

    Tbh, the Scout in previous games was pretty boring. I don’t really see much benefit to bringing in additional vanilla cavalry when it’s proving hard enough to make them distinct as it is.

    Pikemen are all same, too, though! 😉

    Moleriders are a shoo-in for an additional dwarf T3. If introduced, though, I imagine firstborn would lose their digging ability as this devolves back to the moles.

    I actually didn’t even know Firstborns can dig.

    I’m… kinda inclined to think that pistolier pony riders fits a similar idea, and having too much technology on halflings without being a dreadnought seems inappropriate to me.

    But the Sheriff has a lot more extras. And I don’t mind some minor overlaps with a class unit; in fact, I want Human cavalry to have the default pistols. Some Empire Upgrades can seep into vanilla units.

    I generally think of the draconian Warbreed as being the equivalent of the AoW2 Crusher. Breeding from giants works for other races, but due to the dragon-giant animosity, I don’t think it works for draconians.

    Good point.

    And another reason to get rid of the disgusting Warbreed! 🙂
    [/quote]

    #129781

    Epaminondas
    Member

    I’d actually rather see something else dark elf like. A blade dancer comes to mind as a projectile resistance, martial arts, close in attack person.

    Super idea – except it would foreclose Dark Elves returning perhaps 🙁

    #129792

    Morty
    Member

    An important thing to keep in mind, I think, is to be careful about stepping on other races’ toes in the process. If not done right, such extra T3 unit risk actually decreasing diversity. Mole riders, for instance, might be too similar to the big beetles sans blight damage.

    For the same reason, I think butchers might be a better fit for an extra T3 goblin unit than wyvern riders. There’s only one T3 pikeman right now, the Phalanx and I think it’d be interesting if there were more. Same with T3 racial supports and archers.

    As far as orcs go, I thought Abominations would fit in, but Draxynnic makes a good point about their being too close to the Arch Druid’s design space and being morally questionable. Their origins could be rewritten, I suppose, to make them less overtly evil and less plant-like.

    Witch hunters for humans sound good, as does an offensive support unit for elves. Not sure about halflings, draconians and dwarves, really.

    #129793

    Epaminondas
    Member

    An important thing to keep in mind, I think, is to be careful about stepping on other races’ toes in the process. If not done right, such extra T3 unit risk actually decreasing diversity. Mole riders, for instance, might be too similar to the big beetles sans blight damage.

    It’s not possible to have units that have no cross-racial overlap: E.g., every race has a pikeman, and many races have “sword and board” basic melee unit.

    The overlap to avoid is within the race.

    #129798

    eSmokefish
    Member

    Guess it can’t hurt to drop some half-arsed ideas in here.

    High Elf Avenger, T3 Archer or Irregular (Druid or Rogue favor? Choose your poison)
    Primary Attack: Lightning Javelin, phys+shock, medium range, no range penalty, single straight shot
    Notable Traits: First Strike, Armor Piercing, Inflict Shocking, High Shock Resistance
    Medal Gains: Inflict Crippling Wounds @ Silver, Sprint or Phase @ Gold
    Aesthetics: Lightly armored Elf warrior-women wielding shortspears and javelins
    Combat Role: Mobile skirmisher with emphasis on crippling enemy movement

    Draconian Champion, T3 Infantry
    Primary Attack: Phys+Fire melee attack
    Notable Traits: Shield, Projectile Resistance, Inflict Scorching Heat, Giant Slayer, High Fire Resistance or Immunity
    Medal Gains: Fire Aura @ Silver, Tireless @ Gold
    Aesthetics: Draconian warrior, dragonscale shield in one hand and a smaller version of the Crusher’s weapon in the other
    Combat Role: A more defensive, non-flying, infantry powerhouse.

    I would also like to +1 the Human Witch-Hunter and Goblin Wyvern Rider ideas.

    Also I think I had a brief moment of BRAIN PROBLEMS when I blurbed up that Draconian T3 suggestion. Apparently I failed to realize Draconians already have a T3 Infantry. At least this one serves a different role, for what little that counts. Maybe I’ll do better next time.

    #129802

    Morty
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Morty wrote:</div>
    An important thing to keep in mind, I think, is to be careful about stepping on other races’ toes in the process. If not done right, such extra T3 unit risk actually decreasing diversity. Mole riders, for instance, might be too similar to the big beetles sans blight damage.

    It’s not possible to have units that have no cross-racial overlap: E.g., every race has a pikeman, and many races have “sword and board” basic melee unit.

    The overlap to avoid is within the race.

    Certainly, but we’re talking about the T3 units here. They have a lot less overlap, and are each unique, so an attempt to make more of them should try to keep it that way.

    #129814

    Gloweye
    Member

    Draxynnic wrote:
    Personally, what I’d like to see for Elves is a tier 3 support, emphasising their magical nature. My own proposal was something that has Call Lightning, but unlike existing units with Call Lightning (such as Horned Gods and gold-medal Naga Matriarchs) this unit is balanced for having such a powerful ability by not bringing much else to the field (stats no better than gold Storm Sisters, and it may be possible to evolve from Storm Sisters to this).
    I’d actually rather see something else dark elf like. A blade dancer comes to mind as a projectile resistance, martial arts, close in attack person.

    I personally favor the Stormlord Idea. The simple fact that they became High Elves doesn’t mean the Dark Elves really lost their knowledge. It should be a shock resistant units, shock bolts, call lightning, inflict stun at baseline and inflict shocking at veteran. melee damage physical+ shock. And I also like the Storm Sister evolve.

    Note that Stormlord historically is a gender-independent term – it basically was a rank. Might need to be called Stormlady to make the evolve sound easier. Also, because the evolve I’d put stun at baseline(because Storm Sisters get it at gold, so the evolved version should have it.) They don’t have shocking yet, and could get it to enhance the shock damage at high levels.

    #129821

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Minor change, but I would say they should be outright 100% Shock Protection. From Acolyte to Storm Sister to Stormlord/Stormlady/Storm Priestess/whatever, a progressive increase in attunement to the element, culminating in 100% Protection and the ability to Call Lightning.
    Also if Call Lightning is considered too strong on a town produced Support unit(Sorcerers with Phase on them could really kite by using Call Lightning one round, Phase the next if the enemy gets close, then Call Lightning again the following if optimal), it could even just be a single target Lightning Bolt, which is just a one-hex Call Lightning, with all else the same.

    #129822

    Hide
    Member

    it could even just be a single target Lightning Bolt, which is just a one-hex Call Lightning, with all else the same.

    There is this secret single-target shock-spell. This could be used for the Stormlords.

    #129826

    Internet ate my post.

    Wanted to add:

    Dwarves. Ballista. T3 machine.

    Goblins. Butcher. T3 Pike.

    Draconians. Hydra. T3 Monster. Or Wyrm. T3 Monster (flightless Dragon)

    Orcs. No new unit, but unlock new abilities for existing units, e.g. Summon doom bats for Leaders and Priests, lifestealing for all units…

    Haflings. Sheriff. T3 Cav with 32 mp and lots of buffing and debuffing abilities. Weakest t3 in straight up combat OR, like Orcs, new ability/ies such as mitigated physical weakness.

    I’ve tried to avoid any new T3 Cav/Infantry, which all the existing racial T3 are.

    #129831

    Fenraellis
    Member

    There is this secret single-target shock-spell. This could be used for the Stormlords.

    While a nice thought to redistribute a pre-existing ability(spell, really), as it currently is, it would be adding the Fire element to the Elves, which I don’ think they should get inherently available.

    #129846

    Hieronymous
    Member

    Voicing support for more racial units, and updating a few of my own old ideas:

    Dwarf Rune Priest: T3 Support.
    A sort of tanky support unit, and lightning-based instead of fire-based like the Forge Priest and Firstborn. Throws phys+shock ‘thunder hammers,’ enchants the armor and weapons of allied dwarves, and casts a couple of Rune Spells. Examples might include:
    Thunder Blessing: +1 shock damage to phys/shock-based attacks. Army buff, passive.
    Gold Blessing: +200 morale & +1 Resistance to dwarves in the army.
    Rune of Vim: Restores an action point to target allied dwarf.
    Rune of Death: Bestows +1 melee strength, Strong Will, & Charge to the target dwarf you own, but it also automatically applies Berserk and -1 Defense.
    Rune of Null: Some kind of mass dispelling / other anti-magical effect.
    Rune of Ironbreaking: Curses target machine/armored unit.

    High Elf Arcane Archer: T3 Archer.
    Elemental bonuses on bow, elemental protections, projectile resistance/reflection, phasing, Dispel, and a once-per-battle magic bow shot that hits multiple targets, or has Seeker, or explodes, does more damage, or something.
    -or-
    High Elf Spellsword: T3 Infantry.
    Elemental melee damage/protections, armored, shield, Steal Enchantment, phasing. Maybe a bit of a nightmare with Cruel Backstab, and phasing for a super elemental flank attack… I’d rather see a T3 elven archer/support caster anyway.

    Orc Bolter: T3 “Archer.”
    Burly armored orc toting a spiky metal ballista, which he also swings in melee and uses as a makeshift shield. Wall-climbing, and can, once per battle, place a siege ladder or spiked barricade. Inflict Crippling Wounds & Bleeding. Spiked armor deals retributive physical damage against melee attackers. Ballista shots are, of course, long ranged and heavy-hitting, but can only be fired from green movement. Armor piercing.

    Goblin Bat Rider: T3 “Cavalry.”
    Crazy goblin alchemists clinging to the back of a giant cave bat, tossing bombs that inflict Fire and Blight damage, and get various fire/blight infliction abilities on medals. Explosive Death, Life Stealing, Fire Resistance (riders are always singing its fur with their clumsy pyrotechnics); Fire damage in melee (goblins waving torches), Cause Fear (freaky giant bat!), Blight damage in melee and Mind Control Immunity (the goblins are always feeding their poor bat suspicious looking sludge and mushrooms…) and, maybe to make up for all its flanking/harassment potential, it might have 20% physical weakness, or just low defense & HP.

    Draconian Wyrm: T3 Monster
    Quadrupedal, wingless, bestial, elongated dragon-like head. A highly ‘evolved’ Draconian. Fire breathing, Charge, 36 or 32 movement, has like +4 or 5 fire on its melee attack. Fire immunity. Look up the Fire Drake from the “LOTR: Battle for Middle Earth 2” game for some visual inspiration. Represented by a single unit. Strong Will? Fearless? Cause Fear?

    Halfling Sheriff: T3 Cavalry.
    Smoky Haze/Nauseating Stench from pipe, Pistol, Taunting, 32 MP, maybe some morale buffs and support abilities like “Get back here!” that rallies a fleeing/stunned/mind controlled unit…like Break Control, but longer ranged. Might restore an action point, too.
    Wolfhound he can sic on enemies, like the Chicken? (A bit weird if it could go over walls, though. Maybe he can summon a hunting hound from the edge of the map, or right adjacent to himself.)

    Human Adventurer: T3 Irregular.
    A total multi-classer. Steal Enchantment, good movement including Cave Crawling, maybe some innate “Looting” ability that gives gold from kills, and an inherent “Lucky” trait. Be prepared! 20% blight/elemental/spirit resistance. A Faerie Fire styled bolt for his irregular ranged attack, Wall Climbing, doesn’t dislike any terrain types…
    This unit idea is getting flatter and flatter the more I think about it. Also – damn you, Halflings, you name-burglars! I’d rather just see the Swashbuckler return for humans, anyway, though that seems like a T2 unit.

    General & Racial machines:
    General – Ballista, Siege Tower.
    Racial:
    Orcs – Big scary metal battering ram / ballista / siege tower.

    Dwarves – Rune Launcher: Catapult that launches magically imbued ammunition.

    Draconian – Sun Altar that focuses light beams at enemies in a line, or some kind of dragon-headed, flame spewing idol. (Or a mobile Firestorm Pillar-type thing…)

    Goblin – Filth Thrower catapult.
    Humans – Repeater Ballista, or an Organ Gun.
    Halfling – Brew Brothers’ Beer Wagon.
    Elves – …Repeater Ballista…

    #129868

    Yarovit
    Member

    My ideas for second T3s:
    Dwarves- giant mole
    Draconian- This terribly oversized T2 draconian from AoW2, with wall crushing. Could be a bit overpowered to have both flying and wall crushing unit in one race so as downside it could be slow.
    Elves- Either stormlord, ranger- like ranger from AoW, with good melee and longbow, rider based on this dark elf life stealer from first two games or blade dancer.
    Humans- charlatan. Spirit/poison bolts, can cast some debuffs.
    Halfling- No idea here. Only thing I have in mind is sheriff.
    Orcs- no idea. Maybe sth based on AoW orc assassin?
    Goblins- bombers. Have explosive death and throw bombs at enemies

    #129895

    Minor change, but I would say they should be outright 100% Shock Protection. From Acolyte to Storm Sister to Stormlord/Stormlady/Storm Priestess/whatever, a progressive increase in attunement to the element, culminating in 100% Protection and the ability to Call Lightning.
    Also if Call Lightning is considered too strong on a town produced Support unit(Sorcerers with Phase on them could really kite by using Call Lightning one round, Phase the next if the enemy gets close, then Call Lightning again the following if optimal), it could even just be a single target Lightning Bolt, which is just a one-hex Call Lightning, with all else the same.

    Lesser call lightning would be a very good skill, but not an overborn one. You should also think about the stormlord/mother superior and Horned God Archdruid parties if they had full call lightning (oh you have machines, how quaint. well, the sky just ate them, so go plant some trees you twits).

    #129909

    Draxynnic
    Member

    For halflings, I actually think a t-3 sword and shield unit would fit nicely. No unit in the Halfling lineup quite meets the “Merry and Pipin” taller halfling type. You could call them thanes.

    They’d have mail, helms, and oval shields. They’d have decent melee damage, high resistance, mind control immunity, and they’d be able to get up to 10% physical protection (so they’d halve the penalty).

    From memory, Meriadoc and Peregrin ended up as Shirrifs, so it could be a reprisal of that term even if the unit itself ends up quite different (like I said, I don’t think we should be promoting halflings as a cavalry race more than they already are). Probably tone down on the smoking (it may be something they can’t get away with nowadays without raising the rating anyway) and give it more leadership-style abilities.

    Super idea – except it would foreclose Dark Elves returning perhaps

    That’s pretty much my thought. While the Cult of Storms came from the Dark Elves initially, a storm cult is based enough in nature to fit both sides of the elven psyche. In fact, if anything, I thought it a bit weird in AoW1 that the underground-dwelling dark elves took so much inspiration from a sky-based phenomenon…

    So, basically, the consideration that Dark Elves might return sometime makes me hesitant to crib too much from them. The Cult of Storms is already in the High Elves, though, so another level of that seems fair game. 😛

    Pikemen are all same, too, though!

    They’re not entirely – farmers have throw chicken, chargers can, well, charge, and there are a couple of other, more subtle, differences.

    Probably more to the point, though, it’s bad enough having one category that has few distinctions between races. Do we want to do that to another category as well?

    #129934

    From memory, Meriadoc and Peregrin ended up as Shirrifs, so it could be a reprisal of that term even if the unit itself ends up quite different (like I said, I don’t think we should be promoting halflings as a cavalry race more than they already are). Probably tone down on the smoking (it may be something they can’t get away with nowadays without raising the rating anyway) and give it more leadership-style abilities.

    they made all the sherries march in front of them, and served later as a knight of rohan (merry) (thain of the shire) and knight of gondor (pipin).

    But yeah, it might be cool to re-imagine the sherrifs as thanes.

    #129935

    Gloweye
    Member

    I think it would be pretty cool to just have a sheriff with sub-par melee, fire pistol, and bard skills. This way, you’ll be wanting them in your armies because of the bard skills, but not more than one, cause they’re not to strong. Also, the Fire Pistol allows them to be a bit more on the backline, while the CD on it will keep them from OP-ness.

    #129959

    Arilou
    Member

    Goblins: Karagh! I love these guys. Make them quick murderchickens (huge movement, but walking, great attack, overwhelm, charge, etc, but very bad defences for a T3)

    Humans: I like the idea of a Witch Hunter.

    High Elf: Not sure an offensive-focused caster is the best idea, they kind of already have that with the Storm Sister. How about making the Stormlord more of a melee hybrid? (sort of like a higher-tier initiate, with dual-channel melee attacks, high shock resistance or immunity, etc.) could be a dual-wielder just to throw in some Blade Dancer.

    Dwarf: Mole riders as beefy tough cavalry could work. How about something like… Hird, or Royal Guard, or some such, strong defensive pike-unit. (much tougher than the Deepguard but less offensive focused than the Phalanx)

    Orcs: Orcs feel pretty well filled out already, I honestly have no idea what they’d get.

    Halflings: Sheriff or Thane could work.

    #129971

    Morty
    Member

    I think returning the Shredder Bolt in the form of an orc with a really heavy crossbow could work. Might be a little redundant with Orc Musketeers for Dreadnought players, though – you’d have to watch out for that.

    #129982

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Goblins: Karagh! I love these guys. Make them quick murderchickens (huge movement, but walking, great attack, overwhelm, charge, etc, but very bad defences for a T3)

    I’d love to see kharaghs come back myself, but I suspect they’d be a better fit as a dwelling unit than a racial one under the current philosophy.

    #130020

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Certainly, but we’re talking about the T3 units here. They have a lot less overlap, and are each unique, so an attempt to make more of them should try to keep it that way.

    Ok, a good point: I guess we will have to agree to disagree on how big a consideration that potential overlap ought to be.

    Dwarves. Ballista. T3 machine…

    Draconians. Hydra. T3 Monster. Or Wyrm. T3 Monster (flightless Dragon)

    The problem with these is that they do not fit the current racial unit paradigm.

    I think it would be pretty cool to just have a sheriff with sub-par melee, fire pistol, and bard skills. This way, you’ll be wanting them in your armies because of the bard skills, but not more than one, cause they’re not to strong. Also, the Fire Pistol allows them to be a bit more on the backline, while the CD on it will keep them from OP-ness.

    Exactly my thinking.

    #130054

    UltraDD
    Member

    High elves : Blade dancer as already suggested.
    She could have projectile evasion -Damage of ranged attacks reduced by 10% per tile, as if she has more time to dodge the attacks-, Blade-Dance -Hitting an enemy doesn’t rotate them around nor suffer retalitation attacks, could be balanced by giving her a penalty on direct attacks- and death weakness. It’d make a decent flanker unit that can’t be used as the main bulk of the army due to weakness in direct duels.

    #130080

    Food for thought, the current t3 units come from the barracks chain of buildings, but why can’t they come from the other 3 chains, i.e. the Builder’s Hall, Storehouse and Shrine.

    Also, trebuchets are a tier 3 unit, so there is, IMHO, precedent for non humanoid T3.

    Lastly, OP’s aim is to increase late game balance, complexity and variety, and imho spillover production will naturally do that, as would more units (not just T3) and the unlocking of new abilities.

    #130082

    UltraDD
    Member

    Food for thought, the current t3 units come from the barracks chain of buildings, but why can’t they come from the other 3 chains, i.e. the Builder’s Hall, Storehouse and Shrine.

    Also, trebuchets are a tier 3 unit, so there is, IMHO, precedent for non humanoid T3.

    Yea those 2 sound very good to diversify the races. Each race could unlock different units with a different build path -Maybe add all the build trees to the Tome of Wonders- But it’ll become a bit harder to balance the races.

    Trebuchets could have a different tier for each race as well. Humans and dwarves could get it earlier while goblins and elves get it later.

    #130084

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Also, trebuchets are a tier 3 unit, so there is, IMHO, precedent for non humanoid T3.

    The big qualification is that they are not racial units.

    Lastly, OP’s aim is to increase late game balance, complexity and variety, and imho spillover production will naturally do that, as would more units (not just T3) and the unlocking of new abilities.

    I did say more T4 class units would add the variety; but I think T3 racial units make more sense for two reasons: 1) There is a lot of existing material, so less need to re-invent the wheel; and 2) lore-wise it makes more sense to more of weaker unit types than the stronger (strongest) unit types.

    #130107

    ESCL
    Member

    My ideas are as follows:

    Draconians
    Here I’ve got nothing. A foot knight Draconian could be interesting but two T3 infantry units could be weird. Maybe giving it a pike. Not really for making it monstrous, sure the Draconians are a bit special but I quite like the whole “racial means racial” concept

    Dwarves
    I love the old Mole Rider and I think it could work differently from the Big Beetle. For one it would be slower and stronger. I’d say that movementwise it should be barely faster than an infantry unit, if even that – it’s a huge almost blind mole ridden by a dwarf in heavy armour. What would you expect? Secondly it should have one ability that puts it even further from the beetle: undermine. This could be one out of two things, either a single attack against a wall dealing massive damage or a medium range phase-like ability with a cooldown. Essentially giving te dwarves a way of getting past walls without a flyer or phaser

    Goblins
    Hrm, Butcher or Wyvern (Drake) Rider? Either could work, the Butcher is more unique but how would you make it useful? It shouldn’t end up too close to the Phalanx, and I’m not sure life stealing would be enough. The Drake Rider would have a problem sticking out – I suppose adding blight damage would make it the only racial flyer with elemental damage but maybe thats not good enough. A classic strike and return maybe? Single target, long range attack that strikes once and allows for one retaliation when it flies away. Even more racial fliers though – this would leave the Orcs and Humans as the only races without an different way of getting past walls.

    Halflings
    Thanes or Sherrifs could work. “Strong” halfling infantry with nice supporting abilities. Feels a bit wrong not giving them ponies though but we probably can’t have more halfling mounted units.

    High Elves
    I like the whole Stormlord/Priestess idea with a minor call lightning and evolve. Builds on the strenghts of the race without making up for the weaknesses. Another idea would be returning the Ranger again. Quite a lot like the Hunter though but also very competent in melee.

    Humans
    Asch, Humans… The Witch Hunter sounds quite interesting, the name might be a bit too close to the Monster Hunter though. Giving them a nice pike unit could work too. Maybe wielding light muskets with a long bayonette.

    Orcs
    Quite though this one, I don’t want to suggest another flyer or any kind of ranged troop – they are Orcs after all. I got thinking a bit about a “Beast” Rider. Heavily armoured Orc riding an huge war beast – maybe similar to a primeval rhinoceros. A really strong cavalry unit – highest hp in the game with decent mp. Wall crushing of course, maybe a trample ability as well. Works as charge but the unit continues running through the defender – causing extra damage and ending up behind it.

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