Flame tank is solid OP

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Flame tank is solid OP

This topic contains 30 replies, has 24 voices, and was last updated by  Ericridge 5 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #81234

    11balanced11
    Member

    I wanted to post some thoughts on balance: that it’s good overall and having tested all classes and races in MP I found only few issues. But one of them I think deserves a separate thread. It’s the Dreadnought’s Flame Tank. It is t-3 and easy to get (before another t-3s – cannon and golem). It’s good both at attack and defense and have almost no weaknesses:

    – well protected from ranged (as a machine)
    – good vs melee – armored + explosive death
    – fires each round (no cool down)
    – valuable range (comparable to archers but with no range penalty!)
    – devastating damage (about 30, note than in average combat it usually affects 2 – 3 targets and in heavy one – 4 – 5).

    What I suggest to make the unit adequate:

    – include cool down
    – lower damage on 30 – 50%

    This would force the player to combine FT with other units instead of rushing which seems to be effective tactics now.

    #81242

    terrahero
    Member

    Its vulnerable to Shock damage. Its damage is Fire based, the second most common protection is Fire. There are even a bunch of fairly cheap units (cheaper then Flametank) that are immune to Fire. There are not a lot of tier3 units that can be easily defeated by a racial tier1 unit.
    It cannot regenerate, its slow, it cannot make attacks of oppertunity, it cannot retaliate, its vulnerable to machine specific damage spells.

    Its a good unit, but it clearly has its drawbacks and can be very harshly countered by units that are cheaper.
    You’re not going to convince me a unit is overpowered when you only list half of what that unit is, and then only list its strong sides. Ignoring its weaknesses.

    #81305

    Machinator
    Member

    Flame tank is fine. It is a machine, remember, and has associated vulnerabilities, particularly it does NOT regenerate, a rather huge thing.

    #81328

    smeagolheart
    Member

    Flame tank is fine. It is a machine, remember, and has associated vulnerabilities, particularly it does NOT regenerate, a rather huge thing.

    but if you’re a dreadnought which you must be to get these things then don’t you have a bunch of units and skills that repair and resurrect machines?

    #81329

    vota dc
    Member

    Its vulnerable to Shock damage. Its damage is Fire based, the second most common protection is Fire. There are even a bunch of fairly cheap units (cheaper then Flametank) that are immune to Fire.

    Fire has a lot of 20% protection units but high protection it is rarer than spiritual so it is third. Also among racial units only the firstborn is immune to fire and kill the flamer in time. Draconians cannot counter a flamer-fistborn combo despite their fire protection.

    #81332

    Reefpirate
    Member

    Flame tank is fine. It is a machine, remember, and has associated vulnerabilities, particularly it does NOT regenerate, a rather huge thing.

    Right… Because Dreadnaughts have no way of dealing with damaged machines at all…

    I’m not going to jump on the Flame Tanks are OP bandwagon just yet, but some of their weaknesses really aren’t all that weak except when people are trying to say they aren’t OP.

    They’re weak to Shock damage! Oh that’s great, unless you’re playing any race besides Elves and any class besides Sorceror…

    #81338

    apopov
    Member

    I don’t know if I would want this unit nerfed – but I will say this:

    It’s currently the scariest and deadliest T3 unit by a long shot and is quite a bit worse to face in most situations than many T4 units.

    And yes it can be taken out by lower tier units but note the time to do so – last night I had a siege where I attacked 1 flame tank with a golden wyvern (T2) and another flame tank with a gigantic spider(T3).

    Wyvern was hitting her tank for 2-4 damage on each attack. Spider was doing 3-6. Wyvern took 5 turns to kill her tank and was only able to do so because tank got trapped in “turret” slot on the wall + half way through I buffed Wyvern with Shocking Blades.

    My gigantic spider was basically ignored for 3 turns until I was able to mob the tank by other units.

    This unit for is comparable to a T4 Water Serpent in terms of average challenge rating.

    IF it ever comes to nerfing – I would rather they do something very small like -2 defense instead of cooldowns or large damage decrease that was suggested above.

    #81393

    11balanced11
    Member

    Its vulnerable to Shock damage.

    Sorcerer class and High Elves have some counter-strike, but what about others?

    There are even a bunch of fairly cheap units (cheaper then Flametank) that are immune to Fire. There are not a lot of tier3 units that can be easily defeated by a racial tier1 unit.

    Really a bunch of? Only Draconian flamer and hellhound (fire adept). If I am a Human Theocrat Creation / Water, Orc Warlord Destruction / Earth and so on, what can I do? Last time I finished several AI Manticore Riders with a stack of FTs and that was too easy.

    It can’t retaliate? That’s an advantage considering it’s flame attack.

    I should agree, there are weaknesses, which I didn’t list. My bad ) But still I think they are kind of small and particular. They are not comparable to advantages, especially to about 30 damage dealing each turn to multiple targets.

    #81395

    Sathra
    Member

    Flame Tanks don’t have Reinforced. They’re as vulnerable as any other unit to physical ranged attacks (or at least should be). They are tough though.

    Probably do need a cooldown though. They’re brutally effective in siege, and unlike other machines they can’t be blinded to stop them.

    Draconians have at least 2 fire-immune units. Flamers and Elders (which can add 40% to another draconian, for at least 60%), and alot of their racials get fire protection as medals. To the point that alot of my units were essentially shrugging it off.
    Then there’s Fire Halo. Stick that on a rogue/dreadnought hero with some way of getting next to it (probably a unicorn) and sabotage it to death. Or items for fire resist.

    They’re pretty terrifying though if you don’t have good counters floating about.

    #81406

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Flame Tanks need to be on a 1-turn cooldown, I believe.

    #81407

    Sugar Rush
    Member

    I believe skin of oil can remove 100% fire resist, no?

    #81413

    Dwarf Forgepriest, teir 2 , 100% fire protection.

    #81418

    Perhaps what we’re noticing is that the Flame Tank is one of those units which forces many armies to redesign so they can be dealt with. That can be highly inconvenient, expensive, and annoying (or delightful, if you’re a glutton for punishment and like the challenge). Is that part of the OP equation?

    Does every class have a unit you have to redesign to deal with? I wouldn’t know, I have only played 3 classes so far.

    #81438

    Bouh
    Member

    Flyers can close the distance and hammer them fastly. Flame tank also damage friendly units, so once the brawl begin, they are quite unpractical unless the army have fire immunity.

    #81441

    ffbj
    Member

    I think it’s about right. Trebuchets work well against them in sieges, as they stand off and pummel them from afar. Vulnerability to shock damage already mentioned, as you can get shock wands, and other shock abilities for the hero. Also they blow up which can be bad for the user or the one attacking it. They are slow, though on a open field with no place to avoid them they can be dangerous. A cool down would just kill it.

    #81447

    Shiara384
    Member

    what FFBJ said, a cooldown would just render it useless. Do you people really want it to be so useless that it’s never used? A simple yes or no would suffice.

    #81450

    vota dc
    Member

    Cooldown is silly, just lower defense since the huge hitpoint make sense because machines are hard but defense no because they can’t parry or block attacks.

    #81454

    Twiggymc
    Member

    Honestly i find the flame tank Pretty balanced i find it to be one of the easiest t3 units to kill, not to mention since it detonates on death you have no way to bring it back unlike your other machines,a cool down would kill it Draconians counter it like nothing,Dwarves have 2 solid counters to it, fire affinity has spells to counter it Sorcerers get spells, Sorc heroes can get chain lightning fairly early and only need 1 rank into sorcery to cast it

    And the dreadnought do have ways to repair but its not as hugely available as you might think, your Engineers need to be gold rank, sure your dreadnought hero can get it fairly early but you are not always going to have a dreadnought with your army

    #81456

    Didymus1492
    Member

    Here’s another thing about the flametank. A single point in fire adept and hellhounds (fire immune) can shield it without taking harm as it fires through them. Not saying it’s OP — except vs the Artifical Idiot.

    Frankly, I think it should be more fragile, and probably more expensive. Right now it is a very cost-effective unit.

    #81457

    TurtleNaTree
    Member

    Dwarf first born here. I feel like flame tanks need a buff. Its really cold outside so I ran in front of one hoping it would warm me up, but I didn’t feel a thing?

    #81471

    Darkeus
    Member

    I think it’s about right. Trebuchets work well against them in sieges, as they stand off and pummel them from afar. Vulnerability to shock damage already mentioned, as you can get shock wands, and other shock abilities for the hero. Also they blow up which can be bad for the user or the one attacking it. They are slow, though on a open field with no place to avoid them they can be dangerous. A cool down would just kill it.

    Trebs kill everything…. 🙂

    #81483

    terrahero
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>terrahero wrote:</div>
    Its vulnerable to Shock damage.

    Sorcerer class and High Elves have some counter-strike, but what about others?

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>terrahero wrote:</div>
    There are even a bunch of fairly cheap units (cheaper then Flametank) that are immune to Fire. There are not a lot of tier3 units that can be easily defeated by a racial tier1 unit.

    Really a bunch of? Only Draconian flamer and hellhound (fire adept). If I am a Human Theocrat Creation / Water, Orc Warlord Destruction / Earth and so on, what can I do? Last time I finished several AI Manticore Riders with a stack of FTs and that was too easy.

    It can’t retaliate? That’s an advantage considering it’s flame attack.

    I should agree, there are weaknesses, which I didn’t list. My bad ) But still I think they are kind of small and particular. They are not comparable to advantages, especially to about 30 damage dealing each turn to multiple targets.

    Draconian Flamer, Draconian Elder, Dwarven Forge Priest and Dwarven Firstborn are all immune to fire.
    Draconians carry an inherent 20% resistance, but Raptor and Hatchling extend this even further.

    Then there are also summonable units aswell as independent units. Such as Dragons, Wyverns and Giants. But also the more humble Fairy-folk carries nice resistance. Starting at 40% with the basic Buttercup fairy, all the way upto full immunity with the Nightshade fairy.

    Also, despite it being a machine it doesnt actually have Reinforced. So its not inherently better protected to ranged attacks. And for a tier3 it has fairly modest defense and resistance. Just 12def (this includes Armored) with 10res, and 60hitpoints is far from exceptional for a tier3 unit.
    So they arent inherently tougher then other tier3 units. The flamethrowing is also 25fire damage, and not 30.

    But yes, some classes have a better answer then others. You can compensate in class choice, race choice and specialization choice.
    And should you pick three things that do not particularly counter a flame tank then you always have the choices you make on the map. Getting fairies, wyverns/dragons, giants. Or getting a dwarven or draconian city on your side.

    You would have to be absolutely out of luck if you get none of these at all. But if there is a problem with Flame Tanks being rushed before such dwellings or cities can be sides with, then it would stand to reason to push the Flame Tank higher up in the tech tree.
    Unlock Cannons or even Golems before Flame Tanks. To allow a player that doesnt start with a means to counter Flame Tanks, the chance to seek this counter on the map.

    #81488

    11balanced11
    Member

    To all who are pointing that FT is well balanced:

    The examples of counter tactics you give are just particular cases: you have to have some specific racial units or specialization to counter FT effectively, but they are not so available or not so effective. Let us weigh:

    Races:
    Dwarves – OK, they have units with fire immunity;
    Draconians – OK, less vulnerable in general, they have units with fire immunity;
    Elves – OK? I doubt if t-1 and t-2 units with lightning strike can really counter FT, but it’s still something + t-1 archers with physical strike and no ranged penalty;
    Humans – nothing to counter;
    Orcs – nothing to counter + low resistance;
    Goblins – nothing to counter + pointless blight damage;

    Classes:
    Sorcerer – OK with lightning strikes of support units and creatures;
    Druid – rot spell? Too weak I think to be a real counter;
    Others – ???

    Specializations:
    Fire – OK with hellhounds;
    Other – ???

    Could you add something here or correct me if I’m wrong?

    #81493

    vota dc
    Member

    Elves can counter with easy if we get rid of production waste and able to make more t1 and t2 in one turn. I would give to flame tank reinforced and add some melee weakness….I mean bashing it or charging could make the tank fall while arrows can’t. Expecially charge weakness.

    Also, despite it being a machine it doesnt actually have Reinforced. So its not inherently better protected to ranged attacks. And for a tier3 it has fairly modest defense and resistance. Just 12def (this includes Armored) with 10res, and 60hitpoints is far from exceptional for a tier3 unit.<br>
    So they arent inherently tougher then other tier3 units. The flamethrowing is also 25fire damage, and not 30.

    They are ranged units. T1 archer have 32 hp while melee have 40, melee have at least +2 more armor than archer, this has just 5 less hitpoints than a beetle.

    #81505

    liclic
    Member

    you forgot fire elemental (master fire) as a unit that is immune to fire and some dragons also.

    I think that, even if it is a T3, it may be nerfed a little by the initial damage… 10-25%.

    #81517

    muumi
    Member

    Flame tank is the only reason it is possible to do Commonwealth mission 4, where you have to fight the swarm of T4s with only few T4s of your own (at the best), and only one high-level hero (if you decide to be a do-gooder). The main hero and the starting tank carry that mission — AI loves to bunch up its units.

    Now, I imagine it will have somewhat more difficult time against humans — and of course, FT is slow. However, I think it can use bit of toning down in its damage. Or, perhaps it can swap place with cannon (which also makes it useful to build engineers earlier). Currently, FT is the third city-produced building that Dreadnaught researches. The equivalent unit for rogues is assassin. For dreads, it is horse archer. Most would argue that FT is better than assassin, and all would agree that it is way better than HAs….

    If they nerf FT, they need to nerf Commonwealth mission 4, though — I don’t want another Wargame:EE where a balancing patch makes the campaign unbeatable.

    #81521

    Gyg
    Member

    Maybe just reduce its area of effect to a triangle with a 3 hexes wide side?

    #81555

    terrahero
    Member

    To all who are pointing that FT is well balanced:

    The examples of counter tactics you give are just particular cases: you have to have some specific racial units or specialization to counter FT effectively, but they are not so available or not so effective.

    When i point to counters i am pointing to some pretty hard counters. A Flametank going up against a tier1 Draconian flamer is going to lose. Same when it tries to fight any of the other fire immune units. Wether racial, summoned, or otherwise.

    If you do not have fire resistant units its still not an automatic loss, ven if other tier3 units dont have any specific counters such as shock damage, fire resist, anti-machine abilities.
    And thats what people need to try and understand. Flame Tank has a bunch of hard counters, a bunch of soft counters. If it was only average at best against units that do not specifically counter it, what would ever be the point in producing these?

    Even if other tier3 units dont have any specific counters such as shock damage, fire resist, anti-machine abilities.

    #81566

    For an early t3 unit it has far, far to much damage potential. Especially without a cool down. If there was a one turn cool down on the attack 25dmg would be perfectly acceptable. As it stands though it’s just too much. Not other t3 has the ability to put out that much damage, that consistently.

    #81587

    Sathra
    Member

    Hmm, its the only dreadnought unit that doesn’t have a cooldown. While engineers can counteract cooldowns, they’re so fragile that keeping them near FT’s is suicidal.

    Maybe remove Armoured and give them projectile resistance instead? It is a giant tank after all, and it’d make them more vulnerable to melee. And probably drop health by 10 or so. A little bit more fragile, so need some support.

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