Fog of War Frustration

We’ve moved over to the paradox forums. Please come visit us there to discuss:
You can still read the collective wisdom - and lolz - of the community here, but posting is no longer possible.

Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Fog of War Frustration

This topic contains 26 replies, has 19 voices, and was last updated by  NuMetal 4 years, 12 months ago.

Viewing 27 posts - 1 through 27 (of 27 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #104096

    redrum68
    Member

    So most strategy games I’ve played allow players to be able to see what they initially explored in fog of war. I noticed that in AOW3, after you leave the area around a enemy’s city you can now longer see who owns the city or its borders. This is really frustrating especially on large maps as its hard to remember who owns the cities.

    I don’t really see any benefit of not having this basic information in fog of war as I could easily write it down myself. Thoughts?

    #104097

    Hide
    Member

    Most strategy games allow that? That’s new to me. If I recall corectly I only know the old C&C-games to be that way.
    Seriously now, most strategy games work that way that your vision doesn’t stay forever and that’s good. Otherwise you could even play without any FoW at all. You have to keep scout units if you want to keep vision over a certain place. Fortunately there are loads of scout units like the drone of the Dreadnought or the wisp.

    #104100

    I think the OP is saying that you should see the borders and whatnot as of the last time you saw the city. It’s not extra information, it’s just a UI convenience.

    #104103

    redrum68
    Member

    Yeah, demonic is 100% correct. Its just a UI convenience but in my opinion a big one. This is also the case with neutral locations on the map. After you move away, you can no longer see what type of location it is or the number of neutral monsters are there. Again its something you can track on your own but such a pain. Really hope they consider enhancing the UI to include some of these things as it makes the game much cleaner and informative.

    And in terms of games I was referencing, I was thinking Civ5, Warlock, Fallen Enchantress, etc. Almost every major TBS game made in the last 10 years.

    #104105

    terrahero
    Member

    Its not a UI convenience, its a design choice. Triumph simply descided that this information shouldnt come free or easy.
    If you want to know how large the borders of a city extend or who owns what settlement or when it changes hands, you must put in the effort of scouting. This information is not intented to be free.

    And as a deliberate design choice, and not a UI deficiency, i dont see the point in refering to other games and how they do it.
    Civ5 and AoW3 might both be considered Turn-based Strategy, but anyone who spend even a little amount of time playing will know they are fundamentally very different games.

    #104106

    redrum68
    Member

    There is no design reasoning for not showing information that you’ve already scouted. I don’t expect to see the current city border size or if a city changes hands. But I do expect to see the city borders that I scouted and who owned the city when I scouted it. You are misunderstanding the information that I expect to see.

    It is a UI deficiency and has nothing to do with design or getting extra information. I agree that every TBS is different but many have similar UIs and this is just the UI saving information that you originally scouted for the player’s convenience.

    #104115

    Rhedd
    Member

    I don’t know why everyone is having such a hard time understanding what you’re asking for, redrum, but I agree with you.

    After you’ve sent a scout and mapped out the land, there is NO gameplay value in erasing the color overlay that shows city ownership. It’s just annoying. Sure, this information may become invalid over time if you don’t scout regularly, but making the player remember such basic information is silly.

    And on the subject of which other games show this info, that’s a simple question to answer… They ALL do. I don’t think I’ve ever played another strategy game that erases basic map info when your scout leaves the area.

    It’s an unnecessary annoyance in an overall wonderfully enjoyable game.

    #104120

    Taykor
    Member

    OK, there is another similar problem. I haven’t learned all strategic map buildings still. So, there is a frequent situation when I’ve scouted some territory with some building, left it and than forgot what this structure in the fog of war is and which bonuses I can get from it. That is, there is no information pop-up when the structure is in the ‘transparent’ fog of war.

    #104142

    terrahero
    Member

    My fault, i misunderstood. You want to be able to see the snapshot of the information as it was at the time of scouting.

    Yes, that would be lovely indeed. Just as Taykor’s suggestion, there is no need to hide such information with fog of war.

    • This reply was modified 1 year ago by  President.
    #104167

    Bouh
    Member

    You are asking here to paint wrong informations in your UI. Because borders are subject to extending or changing hand. Some games do it, but some don’t. And this is because not everyone want wrong informations on the UI which can be misleading.

    IIRC, maximum number of players is 8. That’s not that many to remember, and the important thing to know is the general direction of the oponent, because this only will not change, unless he dies.

    #104185

    I think there are 2 kinds of information that are debated here:

    Location Information: Name of cities, neutral sites and dwellings, what their defender strength is and what bonus they give when in territory. Especially with uncommon sites so far the only way is to remember the name and look it up in the tome. Also you can’t initiate diplomatic talks without going through the diplomacy screen first.

    Borders and other variable terrain stuff:
    This information can be wrong and outdated, but still viable. Did a neutral city have theses 2 dungeons in it’s territory 3 turns ago, now that enemy forces are coming form it? Was there a neutral territory path through that area? etc… all valuable information especially on bigger maps where you’re not at war with everybody.

    And most games give you outdated information of what was under the FoW until you scout it again, because that information is valuable. And AoW 3 is for some reason rather restrictive about the FoW allowing you to do stuff.

    #104186

    Jerm
    Member

    he is not asking for real time information. He is asking for the game to ‘remember’ and display who owned the city when he last scouted it.

    Whether it changed or not OP wasn’t interested to know.

    When a scout went over and gathered information the information is true at that time and that’s what the OP wants to know..

    #104189

    NoOneII
    Member

    Yep, I agree. Certainly a realms military leader (that is us) wants to have all information about everything. But ofc, he cant have his eyes everywhere at any time.

    So he will have to make do with the most recent Information he was able to gather.
    So, keeping that last gathered information visible would be helpful indeed.

    #104247

    redrum68
    Member

    Based on responses, it appears that almost everyone agrees (after realizing what I was trying to describe, sorry for not doing it that well in the original post) that static information and most recently gathered variable information should be displayed in fog of war. At this point, do you think I should add a post to the gameplay suggestion thread?

    #104250

    Bouh
    Member

    Variable information under fog of war would not only be useless but misleading. I don’t see *any* situation where such a wrong information can be of any use. And I refuse to believe I have a better memory than most people, and moreover when these people play strategy games.

    #104254

    constrainer
    Member

    I agree please upgrade the ui

    #104255

    thebigchief
    Member

    I agree with the poster. If you have seen it, it should show as you last saw it, until you scout the area again, and then it should be updated.

    Somewhat related, I would also love to see the ability to make annotations to the map. ( *Ziggurat here – *Wizard Tower here, *Badass Bone Dragon here, *Put Fort here, etc…) – even if you couldn’t actually type, you could just add the ability to place stars of different colors, or even the ability to just mark it so that you know something of importance is there that you want to remember to go back to.

    #104258

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Variable information under fog of war would not only be useless but misleading. I don’t see *any* situation where such a wrong information can be of any use. And I refuse to believe I have a better memory than most people, and moreover when these people play strategy games.

    I’m also fairly good at remembering this sort of thing – but I’ve seen a reasonable amount of evidence that my memory is better than that of most people, albeit not photographic.

    I don’t see that the request would hurt anything as an option, as long as it’s made apparant to the player that they may be working on out-of-date information. Triumph’s resources are, as always, finite, though.

    #104366

    jakjak
    Member

    Waste of resources when you can just turn fog of war off though it is frustrating sometimes when you forget what units are in say a wizards tower

    #104384

    redrum68
    Member

    @draxynnic – You are able to remember who owns all of the cities and how many neutral defenders are in each location even on say a large map and when you play it across several days? If so you must have an excellent memory as that’s a ton of information to remember (potentially ~100 cities and probably 5 times that many locations). I totally understand finite resources but this is honestly my #1 issue with the game as it stands and the reason I’ve stopped playing for now. Just drives me crazy that I have to make decisions based on so little information.

    @jakjak – Turning fog of war off eliminates exploration all together. That is not at all what I want. I’m actually asking to make exploration more meaningful by having the UI save the information you last explored. Currently, the only real reason to explore the whole map is to meet all the neutrals cities so you can do quests and buy their cities. If the UI actually saved the last seen information it would make exploration much more important and provide more information so the player can make informed decisions based on who owns cities and the number of neutral defenders at locations.

    #104529

    SmurfInHell
    Member

    I understand the use of scouting, but to some degree this is a valid point. While the past “troop count” should not be shown, I truly believe things like city layout (including structures that were built at the last time of LoS) should be shown as well as the size of the city/borders.

    The troop count is very different and while it makes “rational” sense you could have a log on who you saw there, from a gameplay standpoint it can cause you to make irrational decisions. If I saw a city with only 5 archers then pulled my scout back; since I saw those 5 archers still stationed there only 4 turns ago it would literally “bait” me into attacking it with a force. A force of which I considered able to take on only 5 archers, maybe a couple more nearby.

    Effectively this would create an entire new idea of force-baiting opponents into bad situations; while this is a real-world understandable idea – It could create an entire new meta in which people bait others rather than making other tactical/economic calls.

    Overall, I absolutely agree with “owns the city or its borders.” I do not agree with people who say troop counts of the last sight should also be included.

    #104578

    Arizal
    Member

    I agree wholeheartedly with the idea of a greyed-out map showing the map the last time we saw it.

    #104745

    Imod
    Member

    I totally agree with the Thread starter, in fact I thought of making this topic myself for weeks now.

    Nearly in every strategic game you keep information of visited parts of the map. It’s simply logical: If I have explored an enemy city I know who possesses it. It’s needless that it automatically turn back to a “neutral” display, after leaving the scene. I gathered the information, so why not keep it? Do I have to draw a map on my desk on my own just to be able to keep information who owned dicovered cities the last time I visited? It’s a very poor design decision and unnecessary complicated.

    In fact many strategy games (like the total war games) always show the current possessor of a city (once it is discovered on the map), not just the owner at the time of the discovery. In fact I like this. It’s realistic, too. If you have a (big) empire, of course you get information of already discovered cities by travellers and merchants, even without scouts/spies. It’s a bit ridiculous/pedestrian to move a lot of troops over the map just to see how the empires of other players are developing, although you are in late-game and already discovered the whole map. Always moving spies/scouts over the map just to see the city possessors is a bit lame. They should be there to scout/spy the map at the beginning and later to gather military information about the enemies troops. But not to keep updated for everything. That’s just my opinion. In fact it’s a bit frustrating that there is no option. Only the Rogue has a research option, which shows him all possessors of the map. It would be cool to see this technology available for all classes since it’s normal for an big empire to know about certain things like the current owner of nearby cities. Through merchants, travellers or a spy network… it does not matter, but especially on big maps it could get annoying to move a lot of troops just to gather basic information over and over again.

    #104750

    apopov
    Member

    Seeing last scouted location guards and ownership – this seems like a big change to ask for. You are essentially requesting the game to keep a whole other set of data about the map. What is currently there and what was there when you last saw it.

    A lot of work to provide a near useless feature.

    As for always seeing current ownership of last scouted cities – big fat NO THANK YOU.
    This game is about war, and in war information like that is a privilege. If you see cities start changing hands on a far away front, it’s a big heads up as to where the majority of forces of the players involved are currently at or converging towards. That’s a huge strategic advantage that you are asking to get for free and it’s going to remove a lot of the current emphasis on maintaining your own scout net and hampering enemy scouts.

    #104774

    thebigchief
    Member

    How about when you see something that you want to save for future reference, you cast a spell (summon cartographer), and this takes a screenshot of the visible portion of the map at that point, which can then be viewed at any time later from within the game? This would make it cost something (researching the summon spell, and the casting points to save the screenshot). Surely this would not be that difficult to code, and then the game does not have to save a full duplicate map.

    This is basically what I am doing now. I take a screenshot in the game, move the pertinent ones to a folder titled: “Current Game Hearts, Dwellings, & Mythical”. This I can pull up on my second computer screen which sits beside the screen for my main computer that plays the game. Of course, not everybody has a second computer or a second screen, so my suggestion could easily be added and it would serve the same purpose, with a cost to the player.

    #104776

    Imod
    Member

    Just a new (end-game)spell for every class could also solve this issue: More information in the fog of war, similar to the rouge spell “Network of Scrying Eyes”, which makes every city and its current owner visible. Or a spell which disables fog of war for 1-2 rounds in a certain area of some hexes.

    #116149

    NuMetal
    Member

    I too wholeheartedly agree with the OP! +1

    OK, there is another similar problem. I haven’t learned all strategic map buildings still. So, there is a frequent situation when I’ve scouted some territory with some building, left it and than forgot what this structure in the fog of war is and which bonuses I can get from it. That is, there is no information pop-up when the structure is in the ‘transparent’ fog of war.

    This as well!!!

    Almost every strategy game has these and there is no advantage in losing all this information.
    Especially after playing Starcraft2 for a long time, this frustrates me to no end…

Viewing 27 posts - 1 through 27 (of 27 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.