How High Elves Could Specialize into Wood or Dark Elves

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions How High Elves Could Specialize into Wood or Dark Elves

This topic contains 83 replies, has 28 voices, and was last updated by  Ragnarok777 4 years, 2 months ago.

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  • #157392

    Charlatan
    Member

    @ravenholme
    Thanks for the elaboration.

    @topic
    Allow me to add that people here are exaggerating what is usually called “evil”, making it the utter epitome of malevolence.

    Only very few Evil characters really act on the sole purpose to effectively, intelligently and deliberately cause evil deeds and harm as much as possible. As Ravenholme said, these would try to look harmless, it’s the smarter decision.

    But also, such characters are either 90’s cartoon villains, or completely insane.

    The bulk of “evil” sides usually has many neutral or even good motivations, but their personality is more ruthless, merciless or violent resulting in evil actions to achieve their goal. Or, sometimes, they are just the less understood/known side in a conflict.

    As for the appearances and if they should be dark or not, I won’t say either here is right. All I say is that appearance is almost completely independent of your alignment and fully depends on the personality of individual chars. OF COURSE there are countless blunt and evil individuals who will horribly screw your day up – and dress like it, too.

    …how do you think the Shadowborn enemies in the main campaigns would look like if they didn’t have to blend in ?

    #157400

    Ravenholme
    Member

    …how do you think the Shadowborn enemies in the main campaigns would look like if they didn’t have to blend in ?

    Pincushions, what with all the arrows from the first bunch of people who crossed their path.

    #157410

    Charlatan
    Member

    Pincushions, what with all the arrows from the first bunch of people who crossed their path.

    Exactly. Because they are few, they are horribly outnumbered, and they start out with no force at all. Subterfuge and manipulation is their deal, a benevolent facade a must.

    That doesn’t apply to a whole race or army. So I think we’re kinda knocking this discussion offtopic.

    On-Topic: I’d subjectively say the merge into High Elves hit the Dark Elves WAY harder than the Wood Elves. Differences from Wood to High and from Dark to High are arguably immense.

    From a lore standpoint there is only one question to answer here: Did all Elves agree and participate in the mending?

    #157412

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Elves, the most magical of all creatures

    *Looks at the Draconians as magically genetically engineered beings…*

    Well, I suppose if one considers that the Elves, as a race, are tasked with going from world to world to make it habitable, but then one just has to look at the Highmen/Archons and they kind of one-up them due to inherent hierarchy lore wise.

    Did all Elves agree and participate in the mending?

    We already know the answer to this one as a ‘very likely not’. If nothing else, the Dark Elves that followed Meandor into the Shadow Realm are still ‘un-Mended’, I believe, whether or not that will actually end up playing a role in the future.

    #157427

    It’s now 4:30 am here and I am drunk, I’ll get back to you when I understand again what you are saying in that mysterious northern European lexic of yours. And I’l contraddict you all and beware because I’ll be right and you’ll be wro-hong!! (as usual)

    #157436

    Draxynnic
    Member

    There’s Meandor’s elves and Hester’s elves, who both left the area of the Commonwealth before the Court split off and the Mending happened.

    Working back to the main topic: Personally, I don’t think ‘invisible cities in forests’ is enough of a distinction to make wood elves as distinct from high elves worthwhile. Unicorn Riders are essentially Iron Maidens demoted to tier 2, like a number of other tier demotions we’ve seen. Hidden cities would be hard to pull off with the domain mechanic, and even if it did work, that would probably be no more than a racial command upgrade if you want it to be racially specific, or a specialisation or class ability.

    Dark elves have a bit more of an opening to be a distinct race, although I’m expecting they’ll go in a different direction to simply being evil elves – Mending or not, I think the former dark elves have recovered enough from their PTSD that they aren’t what they used to be any more. Instead, there’d be some other thing that distinguishes them from High Elves apart from alignment.

    #157439

    Dark elves have a bit more of an opening to be a distinct race, although I’m expecting they’ll go in a different direction to simply being evil elves – Mending or not, I think the former dark elves have recovered enough from their PTSD that they aren’t what they used to be any more. Instead, there’d be some other thing that distinguishes them from High Elves apart from alignment.

    Yeah, i expect the Dark Elves would become some kind of “otherworldly” elves in light of all the cosmic stuff happening in the universe. Maybe they could have incorporated shadow demon/the actual big bad type things into their own society, along with archon techniques.

    #157441

    sk00p
    Member

    Why don’t they just change high elves into drows?

    Of course that won’t happen but the point is some people prefer drows

    #157448

    Jaduggar
    Member

    I have heard a lot in this thread about what an evil race would behave like, and look like, but what really gets under my skin is the notion that an entire race would be good or evil all at once

    I currently imagine your alignment to merely represent the alignment of your leader only, and I have never liked the idea of races being entirely good and entirely evil… I find the notion absurd. Isnt evil merely what is bad for the species? Isnt good that which benefits it? If a man kills a man, he is considered evil, but if a man kills an animal to feed a man, then he is typically (by most at least) considered to be good, yet dont both acts involve killing?

    How can a race be dedicated to evil unless it is dedicated to its own destruction? Is it merely dedicated to the destruction of some default observer? If so, then… who the hell is that observer? Wouldnt that just reduce all acts of good and evil to some useless relativistic scale, that no other race could share with you but your own?

    …just leave my elves alone, theyre fine :<

    #157453

    Fenraellis
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Draxynnic wrote:</div>
    Dark elves have a bit more of an opening to be a distinct race, although I’m expecting they’ll go in a different direction to simply being evil elves – Mending or not, I think the former dark elves have recovered enough from their PTSD that they aren’t what they used to be any more. Instead, there’d be some other thing that distinguishes them from High Elves apart from alignment.

    Yeah, i expect the Dark Elves would become some kind of “otherworldly” elves in light of all the cosmic stuff happening in the universe. Maybe they could have incorporated shadow demon/the actual big bad type things into their own society, along with archon techniques.

    Well, while I don’t really expect it, I could see Meandor returning with ‘Shadow Elves’ or something like that. Tainted/Twisted by their extended experiences in Shadow Realm while not being native to it, in some meaningful way. Although some sort of combined band of representatives of the more prominent missing races that went off to war together could work. Kind of a Shadow Realm version of the Nomads.

    Remnants of the forces of the Dark Elves, Archons and such, returning as a single faction. Although the concern could be that, logically, such a faction of survivors(of the fittest) would be composed of the best elements of those races. Elven Longbows, Archon Infantry and/or Pikes, etc. Such a racial-faction would logically have little weakness due to being composed of the best units(the survivors) of the combined races, unless it’s related to their common experience of being in the Shadow Realm for so long.
    That, and a common racial trait set across their units of mixed races might be a bit trickier to play off, aside from the whole Shadow Realm thing as mentioned.

    #157457

    That, and a common racial trait set across their units of mixed races might be a bit trickier to play off, aside from the whole Shadow Realm thing as mentioned.

    They could have merged, so it is parallel to the mending, but more metal, since it was fighting demons.

    #157481

    Fenraellis
    Member

    but more metal, since it was fighting demons.

    🙂

    #157484

    There’s Meandor’s elves and Hester’s elves, who both left the area of the Commonwealth before the Court split off and the Mending happened.

    Working back to the main topic: Personally, I don’t think ‘invisible cities in forests’ is enough of a distinction to make wood elves as distinct from high elves worthwhile. Unicorn Riders are essentially Iron Maidens demoted to tier 2, like a number of other tier demotions we’ve seen. Hidden cities would be hard to pull off with the domain mechanic, and even if it did work, that would probably be no more than a racial command upgrade if you want it to be racially specific, or a specialisation or class ability.

    Dark elves have a bit more of an opening to be a distinct race, although I’m expecting they’ll go in a different direction to simply being evil elves – Mending or not, I think the former dark elves have recovered enough from their PTSD that they aren’t what they used to be any more. Instead, there’d be some other thing that distinguishes them from High Elves apart from alignment.

    Well the Devs have done a pretty good job at taking apart lots of the good stuff the Wood\Dark-Elves had and gave everything away to every other race making such stuff class specific (Rogue, Archdruid) that’s why my suggestion is not exactly about creating two new entire races, but merely to capitalize on what we have left by evolving the High Elves.

    Still I wouldn’t say that recreating both elven races is impossible, with race specific spells and skills… Also a dark elf succubus should at least be able to kick in the gums all other succubi.

    I currently imagine your alignment to merely represent the alignment of your leader only, and I have never liked the idea of races being entirely good and entirely evil… I find the notion absurd.

    Of course, but Elves do have such tendency. If the High Elves are the products of a mix between the Wood and the Dark Elves I see a potential for a crisis there that i just can’t see in any other race. What I imagine in fact is that when the leader starts behaving in a certain extreme way, such behavior would just drive away the elves of the opposite alignment (or they would get imprisoned or killed).

    #157487

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    As I said, make a Dark Elfen Dwelling. That should cover it.

    #157494

    As I said, make a Dark Elfen Dwelling. That should cover it.

    At the very least… still all my other cities would be white… HORROR !!

    #157504

    Gloweye
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Jolly Joker wrote:</div>
    As I said, make a Dark Elfen Dwelling. That should cover it.

    At the very least… still all my other cities would be white… HORROR !!

    You’d do good the help Low_K with his mod tools crusade…a recolor should be simple.

    #157547

    Morty
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Jolly Joker wrote:</div>
    As I said, make a Dark Elfen Dwelling. That should cover it.

    At the very least… still all my other cities would be white… HORROR !!

    You have my condolences if something so inconsequential is such a huge problem for you.

    #157549

    UltraDD
    Member

    Wood elves aren’t saints. Pretty sure a good portion of AoW2 was against wood elves. They are as bad as dark elves if given an evil leader -Serena and Julioch-.

    I thought blade dancers “could” fit warlords to give them elemental damage. Now I know this will get a lot of backlash -But they are balanced by physical damage!- but this is moot because they can already summon a lot of stuff. If anything this might allow them to happily pick more diverse specializations.

    Some sketching :
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3QF8y2zqcMacG1SdU9xc2txOWc&authuser=0
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3QF8y2zqcMaYlRPN0JvdjVLdG8&authuser=0
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3QF8y2zqcMaOTkzYTFaS2RoaEE&authuser=0

    #157630

    Draxynnic
    Member

    UltraDD is correct there – although we don’t know how much the elves that followed Serena (and “Julioch”) actually knew about what was going on. The bonus scenario for Life, for instance, is about protecting a group of elves that knew the truth about Serena, who the conspirators sought to wipe out to prevent them from spilling the beans to the others.

    Still, the Dark Elves weren’t really all that evil in the AoW2 story. Those under Arachne were isolationist more than anything, and Meandor,’s ultimately worked for the side of good. In the context of the Dark Elf narrative, I think this is a reflection of having largely passed through the ‘Anger’ stage of grief.

    #157663

    Charlatan
    Member

    Maybe this image will keep you happy for now THE Dark Knight 😛

    G.I.M.P.

    #157672

    Ravenholme
    Member

    Maybe this image will keep you happy for now THE Dark Knight :P

    G.I.M.P.

    It looks like someone threw up over the city after eating too many parmaviolets

    #157678

    Maybe this image will keep you happy for now THE Dark Knight 😛

    Thank you buddy, in fact it is a happy sight, still I would like my DARK ELVES to be able to reemerge from the stupid High Elves by taking control of their society through the mass-extermination of the remnant of every single Wood Elf in it, when their leader becomes Pure Evil. Also I would like the unbearable name “HIGH ELVES” to disappear in such circumstance FROM EVERYWHERE leaving place to the words “DARK ELVES” everywhere in my empire. That should immediately allow me to have access to specific Dark Elf and Rogue spells (which would include a summon GREATER DEMON), to be able to recruit the (much missed) AOWI Storm Priests, Executioners, and both Assassins and Succubi (even if my leader is not a rogue). I would also appreciate so much if every other race would instantly hate me, but I cannot ask for everything can I?

    Regarding the Wood Elves someone argued that they may not necessarily be seen as pure good (although they were not neutral in AOWSM) – therefore their party could maybe able to emerge from the High Elves not when the leader becomes pure good, but whether the High Elves starts showing a particular rediscovery of nature: like by the fact of using a lot certain specific spells (earth or nature related). Of course the fact of choosing a Archdruid career would make the High Elves society more prone to embrace the Wood Elves.

    What I enjoyed most about Wood Elves (except killing them) were their hidden cities and I suggest that in case the Wood Elves re emerge from the High Elves their entire territory would become invisible to other players including some or all of their cities. and they should gain access to many druidic lores and units even if their leader is not originally a druid.

    The turn into Wood Elves or Dark Elves should not be reversible IMO since the idea is that the winning group pretty much destroyed the other one.

    and most of all:
    Wood Elves would get tree-cities (like the dumb boyscouts they are)
    and my
    Dark Eves would get BLACK CITIES

    #157681

    Charlatan
    Member

    It looks like someone threw up over the city after eating too many parmaviolets

    You *dare* mock my glorious half-assed just-got-up-from-oversleeping-whole-sunday 5 minute creation?

    Pretentious robed smurf! Next time I buy a shipload of parmaviolets for my elves, I’ll tell them to aim at your village!

    @the Black Knight
    As much as I support the return of Dark Elves, no offense but making the presence of all 3 elven types your suggestion somewhat blows your chances.

    I don’t know in what form we will see further elves in AOW3, but I am quite sure we will not see High Elves, Wood Elves AND Dark Elves as races in AOW3 separately.

    Neither is there any considerable chance that only one of all the races get the ability to choose between a split path.

    The best chance is one additional elven race to show up. Dark Elves offer enough possibilities, Wood Elves would need some tweaks to differ enough from High Elves. And both would slightly ridicule the initial lore twist of the Mending.

    #157693

    Calmar
    Member

    THE Black Knight definitely has a point. The Dark Elves weren’t a separate ‘race’ that was inherently different from the good elves; they were elves that had become evil and had affiliated themselves with the powers of destruction and Death. The (wood) elves were just the same creatures, but good-aligned and alied to the powers of nature. By the same logic that saw the sisters Julia and Meandor become members of different ‘races’ in AoW I once their ethical outlook became opposed, today’s High Elves should also turn into dark elves once they are as depraved and malicious as the dark elves of the First and Second Ages were.

    #157715

    Fenraellis
    Member

    I apologize for not going in depth with this, more so than other counter arguments. Suffice to say, I disagree with your particular, hopefully exaggerated, vitriol towards the High Elves. And Wood Elves, I suppose.

    If you want to play a Rogue, play a Rogue. If you can’t willfully ignore the color of your cities, and it’s causing this must turbulence, then perhaps step back, take a deep breath, and reconsider your motivations.

    Be happier. 🙂

    That, or just wait an indeterminate amount of time for Mod Tools to be released.

    #157726

    Jaduggar
    Member

    That, or just wait an indeterminate amount of time for Mod Tools to be released.

    We should get a pool going… to bet on what is going to be added first when modding equipment comes out… the Emo-Elves, the Archons, or a mod that simply opens Shadow Magic every time someone clicks the Age of Wonders 3 icon 🙂

    #157727

    Charlatan
    Member

    “Emo-Elves”

    …the things I will do to your kittens when mod tools are out… you don’t want to imagine them.

    #157735

    When I think of elves, I think of them as they existed in the Tolkien universe. Immortal, pious, completely full of themselves and detached from everyone else around them… living in tall, white stoned cities with high spires, and taking themselves way too seriously.

    That’s like the flanderized movie version of Tolkien’s Elves, where Peter Jackson somehow mixed up “Elves” with “Long haired Vulcans”

    Elves in Tolkiens world were pretty complex and you got those that lived in their white spires like Gondolin and Tirion, but you also had Wood Elves and Sea Elves and Wandering Elves and lots of other cultures.
    But they all had in common that they loved music, dance and merriment and if you look at Gildor he knew very well about the goings on in the Shire. And then you have Lothlorien that’s like a mixture between Wood Elves and High Elves.

    [/quote}
    I have never liked wood elves… ever. In any fantasy setting. And, yes, I know there were wood elves in Tolkiens world, too… but those were the Hobbit ones, and they sucked.
    [/quote]

    So Legolas, Lothlorien, Doriath and Luthiren Tenuviel were in the Hobbit and sucked? My copies of the Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion must be misprints then….

    I agree with you don’t like the “Disney version” of Wood Elves much either where they kill people for collecting wood in their forests and stuff like that. But I do like well done versions of the Woodland Folk and I thought that the Age of Wonders version of the Wood Elves was done very well.

    #157745

    Jaduggar
    Member

    So Legolas, Lothlorien, Doriath and Luthiren Tenuviel were in the Hobbit and sucked? My copies of the Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion must be misprints then….

    Well, Legolas’s half-assed backstory barely justifies his being called a wood elf, in my opinion. He had about as much in common with those elves as Gimli did with the comically foppish dwarves of the Hobbit, to whom he was technically related, as well. That was just a lot of Tolkiens habit of giving every character a longer and grander backstory than they needed (hell, several of Tolkiens characters exist as nothing but backstory elements).

    I havent read The silmarillion in almost twenty years, and I will be totally honest with you and say that: I was about ten, and likely a lot of it went well over my head, at the time… so nothing about it stands out to me now.

    But as far as Lothlorien is concerned, wasnt part of Lothloriens whole significance the fact that they were so unlike all of the other elves? They were a last remnent of what elves used to be, but everywhere else, the elves had gone on to become what they were now. Galadriel left it all behind in the end to join the rest of their people, and I think they all basically abandoned it. It was about letting go of tradition… it wasnt an example of what elven culture as a whole was like.

    I didnt see them so much as “Wood Elves” (although I can totally see why some people would say that they were), I saw them more as some very fundamentalist sect of elves that was having a hard time moving on, like the rest of the world was. Im not sure if that really supports my original point much, but… yeah. I dont see them in any way as an example of what elves should be.

    (and for the record, I thought peter jacksons interpretations of everything in LOTR was amazing… he screwed up the Hobbit pretty good, though)

    #157786

    Charlatan
    Member

    @garth St.Claire
    @jaduggar
    Now I don’t want to be nit-picky but I don’t think any “screen-time” elven character there seems a clear example, in both the books and the movies.

    When adding the Silmarillion to the sources, it seems rather like all elven groups beside Lothlorien are the “unlike the others” recluse. I mean the way Wood Elves are described is pretty distinct, don’t pin me down on the exact words, but they’re described as more feral and much less intelligent. Rivendell with their “normality” and constant happiness that makes one interested in whatever herbs these elves grow is a massive contrast aswell.

    For a closer look we only got Legolas as the only one hanging around for an extended time, and he seems rather “default”.

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