I am disappointed that maximum level 50 cap was removed and now it is only 20.

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions I am disappointed that maximum level 50 cap was removed and now it is only 20.

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This topic contains 54 replies, has 37 voices, and was last updated by  Jamesmocky 2 months, 4 weeks ago.

Viewing 25 posts - 31 through 55 (of 55 total)
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  • #72092

    Sarog
    Member

    Gonzo, and other players wish to have the ability to have fun whilst playing a videogame. I know this seems like a strange idea to some

    That sound you hear is the melodrama police coming to take you to soap opera jail.

    #73549

    Host
    Member

    Oh, please. If there were any soap opera police operating on this forum, all the “BUT IT’S NOT PERFECT STARCRAFT MULTIPLAYER BALANCE WOOBLEWOOBLEWOO” beta testers wouldn’t still be around.

    #80859

    Dhraiden
    Member

    Maybe with a custom-mod to remove the XP cap that will satisfy both parties (Use it if want, don’t if not). I kind of want to keep leveling up and gaining abilities, but I’m happy your Hero’s points “reset” between campaigns so you can change up and experiment with new abilities/load-outs.

    #80890

    DerDings
    Member

    I don’t think there is a need for a hard cap, and there are a few reasons:

    1. you need more XP per level anyway
    2. you run out of skills and your eternal skills (damage, HP, def, resi) will get increasingly expensive and decreasingly useful
    3. if you actually allow your hero to gain that many XP, you’ll likely lack in other areas so you should benefit; in a fight that is not close you wouldn’t want your lvl 20 hero to do anything so others get the XP, which is kind of weird.
    4. campaign – by turn 4 of the 3rd commonwealth mission, I had both heroes at 20, the one I left on the 2nd mission was at 20 as well; I stopped playing now, because what’s the point?

    Counterargument:
    1. there are ways to get theoretically infinite XP out of a single battle; infinite levels means infinitely good hero for a very, very, very bored grinder.

    #80911

    Nekohime
    Member

    Well i think 50 would be absurd,but i wouldn’t mind the cap being increased to 30 like it was in past games and having a little slider so you adjust not just hero count,but maximum hero level for a scenario or random map like in the past games.

    95 points for level 20
    145 for level 30

    However hero’s aren’t as reliable as they were in past games because of the lower level cap.

    In the second scenario of the elven court campaign i got all my heroes to 20 because the AI kept sending in the brigands with plague of brigands and trying to demoralize one city with all my heroes and several ranged defenses and some horned gods while i explored a good chuck of the map and took cities besides the humans.

    It is nice the stat points reset at the beginning of the next campaign map if they are the leader in the previous or become the leader in the current.

    #80960

    Raghar
    Member

    Actually kinda wonder how someone would be able to make druidry level 6 and learn two additional spells. That level cap doesn’t look like it works well together with hero spellcasting.

    #91169

    Summoner
    Member

    I advocate for the slider up to lvl 50 as well, since it would be a slider and can be fine tuned for each player to set as he/she likes it then. Those who think 50 would be far too much may not be considering that skills/abilities go up in cost as you stack more of them, so a lvl 50 hero for instance will not be twice as strong as a lvl 25 hero or such. If 50 is found to be too much, players can individually set the slider to what they like without any new patch having to tone it down, just leave the default at 20 and most players will keep it there at the start, with the option to increase it as they like later.

    Slider could be coded for scenarios to flash up a red message “WARNING: Scenario is balanced around lvl 20 heroes, alter this setting at serious risk of balance for this scenario only” if desired.

    Bottom line, adding a slider for lvl 50 is something a lot of players can enjoy (even if they only adjust it to 25, 30 or whatever they find they prefer) without negatively impacting anyone, other than in the work it takes to put it in. Increasing variability and fun options in the game with addition of such a slider at no negative impact to other players would seem to outweigh concern for work needed to add such slider, I should think. Please add said slider and up to lvl 50 at least 😉

    #91285

    Bob5
    Member

    I think level 20 is strong enough. They still become extremely powerful, especially the leaders. I’ve had a leader that I could buff in combat to physical and fire immunity in the first turn, while it already had spirit immunity through strong will. That’s complete immunity to all human racial units, all draconian racial units, all dwarf racial units, all dreadnought class units, all warlord class units, and all theocrat class units. That hero also had 80% shock protection and 40% blight protection, so it was also extremely resistant to eldritch horrors, they could only inflict little damage with shock breath (like 5 every 2 turns) and a tiny bit blight damage through their melee attacks. Same for Horned gods, only taking damage from their call lightning which has a cooldown while I have 80% shock protection. Only frost users were somewhat threatening to that leader.

    I think a different solution might be to just increase the exp required to reach level 20, so you don’t max out as fast.

    #91335

    grumpysmurf
    Member

    I do not understand why people argue against the wish of others who would like a higher cap as an optional feature.

    Will you have nightmares if you know others might be playing the game with a different setting than your own?

    I have read the argument that some people think that 20 is enough – that is fine, others – me included would like to have the option to play with it – maybe even lower the cap for the hardcores – how about a level 10 hero cap?

    The time needed should be something like adding an optional slider on the advanced setup. The hero cap check is already within the game – and as you can see from the campaign can have different values per map.

    Nobody will be forced to use a higher level cap – or resurgence for heroes or something else.

    One of the few arguments against it I can think of is that this change consumes so much developer time that others more important features cannot be implemented for months.

    #112392

    Summoner
    Member

    I do not understand why people argue against the wish of others who would like a higher cap as an optional feature.

    Will you have nightmares if you know others might be playing the game with a different setting than your own?

    I have read the argument that some people think that 20 is enough – that is fine, others – me included would like to have the option to play with it – maybe even lower the cap for the hardcores – how about a level 10 hero cap?

    The time needed should be something like adding an optional slider on the advanced setup. The hero cap check is already within the game – and as you can see from the campaign can have different values per map.

    Nobody will be forced to use a higher level cap – or resurgence for heroes or something else.

    One of the few arguments against it I can think of is that this change consumes so much developer time that others more important features cannot be implemented for months.

    I would think even the argument against the slider that developer time would be “wasted” on hero cap instead of other features would fall a bit flat, in that there was a lvl 50 cap previously… So I’d not expect *that* much developer time would be wasted adding it back? As for the slider itself, sliders have been added for other features in game so again I’d not think *that* much work would be required to add them to hero level caps.

    On a related note, maybe “resurrected” heroes should suffer some penalty – say they lose a level or two (the game would have to track what promotions they received each level for this, not sure if it does already, such that on losing a level the hero lost the last promotions received). If added I’d still let the hero go back up to whatever the maximum cap the slider setting was at, so “resurrect” would not limit the hero’s potential but just set him/her back to have to work back up again.

    #112403

    I would think even the argument against the slider that developer time would be “wasted” on hero cap instead of other features would fall a bit flat, in that there was a lvl 50 cap previously

    it never actually went up to 50 when in the game, the slider just said fifty. The problem is that there aren’t enough upgrades and flavor things to last to level fifty. You’d just keep on boosting stats until you had units that would be boringly invincible.

    However, I would support the release of such a super hero option with the mod support stuff, because those people could design new content to go with the higher level heroes/leaders.

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  President.
    #112499

    Summoner
    Member

    <DIV class=d4p-bbt-quote-title>Summoner wrote:</DIV>
    <P>I would think even the argument against the slider that developer time would be “wasted” on hero cap instead of other features would fall a bit flat, in that there was a lvl 50 cap previously</P>

    <P>it never actually went up to 50 when in the game, the slider just said fifty. The problem is that there aren’t enough upgrades and flavor things to last to level fifty. You’d just keep on boosting stats until you had units that would be boringly invincible. </P>
    <P>However, I would support the release of such a super hero option with the mod support stuff, because those people could design new content to go with the higher level heroes/leaders.</P>

    What is “boringly invincible” to some might be “excitingly different” to others, thus the slider to set the option your group prefers. Some may find the 20 cap makes heroes too similar, and might like that one hero who has lasted through the many wars might stand out above other great heroes that are just not quite as great, making for *more* variety and *less* “boringly similar” units. If players do find at a certain level cap that heroes become too much for their game, they just set the slider down lower or to the default.

    The beauty of the slider is you choose what fits your style, and what you have found in your own experience makes for the most fun. Even better, you can mix it up for variety if you decide a different flavour sounds more fun at a given time. Also, the aspect of “not enough flavour things” for upgrades as levels get higher is good in that it allows developers to just keep upping the cost of stat upgrades automatically instead of having to spend time wrackig brains for new and balanced abilities to be had at higher and higher levels, and the automatic cost increase to said stats serves as its own control in limiting the “invincibility” of units as they get more levels. At a certain point it would even take more than one level to add to a stat, but the fun of seeing your heroes improve would never end until the game did (at least if the slider has a level cap option for *no* level cap at all).

    Obviously I’m a big fan of letting players decide their own level caps in the game 😉

    #112531

    Thariorn
    Member

    As chrisophylax páuperem said, the SLider may have shown 50 as a possible LevelCap for Heroes and Leaders, but in effect, 20 was ALWAYS the max cap.

    #112537

    Summoner
    Member

    As chrisophylax páuperem said, the SLider may have shown 50 as a possible LevelCap for Heroes and Leaders, but in effect, 20 was ALWAYS the max cap.

    In which case I’d still suggest an actually working slider be added, to allow players to chose what level cap they prefer. It could be a bit more work than simply reverting to a system that was already in place though, but still as long as new abilities for heroes need not be created should not be relatively excessive work for developers compared to adding new mechanisms to the game in other areas.

    #112873

    tonberryr
    Member

    Personally I think even more customization options (being able to increase or decrease) is not really a bad thing and could really introduce some interesting scenarios for both competitive play and single player play. It’s just an idea people are suggesting and with a slider doesn’t have to hurt anything as people usually customize matches before hand and can simply choose the level…or they could go the route of making it take more to level which would give a tad bit more longevity for the people in those huge single player maps. If it doesn’t happen one can probably expect someone to mod the game so that it does just that. So really nothing to really worry about from either side.

    #113798

    NuMetal
    Member

    I don’t think there is a need for a hard cap, and there are a few reasons:
    1. you need more XP per level anyway
    2. you run out of skills and your eternal skills (damage, HP, def, resi) will get increasingly expensive and decreasingly useful
    3. if you actually allow your hero to gain that many XP, you’ll likely lack in other areas so you should benefit; in a fight that is not close you wouldn’t want your lvl 20 hero to do anything so others get the XP, which is kind of weird.
    4. campaign – by turn 4 of the 3rd commonwealth mission, I had both heroes at 20, the one I left on the 2nd mission was at 20 as well; I stopped playing now, because what’s the point?

    Counterargument:
    1. there are ways to get theoretically infinite XP out of a single battle; infinite levels means infinitely good hero for a very, very, very bored grinder.

    Very good points!

    At point 4 and the counterargument: I think the devs said somewhere that they are looking into fixing these.

    @everyone saying the 50 was never intended or that the OP jsut made it up:
    In the closed Beta of AoW3 we were able to set the maximum level in the advanced options of the RMG and 50 was the absolute maximum.
    Thariorn has already said so multiple times in this thread.

    So in short yes, I do agree that we should get back the option to set the max level for heroes to 50. I don’t see any reason why this option should not exist. +1

    #113857

    Athei
    Member

    I don’t think that I will ever set cap higher than 30, but this have +1 from me nonetheless.

    Who knows it might be fun…

    #114093

    Mardagg
    Member

    +1 to optional Hero Level cap higher than 20.

    #114469

    happyworld
    Member

    +1 to adding a level cap slider for heroes that goes up to 50+
    +1 to any option that allows people to play this game the way they want.
    -1 to any response that tries to limit choice or remove features.

    #114499

    I really don’t see the point of being against the slider. of course there would be an point where the game engine doesn’t support the growth of an character anymore (say 999 after that the numbers will leave the banners). but even then. I would like to run around with an level 9999 warlord hero one hitting every tier 4 bastard that is getting in my way.

    make it an [] remove hero level limit, in the advance options, by default deselected, and an little disclaimer that the game is not balanced around this mode so it is fun (and grindophiles) only.

    #116409

    Aedulu
    Member

    I can only advocate a lvlcap slider as considered above. It would give grinders the opportunity to enjoy the game some more, while it would allow the pvpers to enjoy balanced gameplay. Everybody would win, especially the producers of the game (bows to you).
    Also, it should not be too hard to add a warning that, above a given level of that slider, well, balance might go havoc.
    While I generally think that a lvl20 rogue with dash and a Tempest’s staff of air mastery is nigh unbeatable, I can see the point in wanting to advance indefinitely, or at least some more 😉

    I also agree on the point made about spellcasting heroes. Most of the time such builds are much worse than other hero-builds. The only exception might be the Druid being able to wreck walls during a siege cheaply enough (skillpnts-wise) to allow for some army buffs and survivability as well.

    To peeps who are really freaked out by the lvlcap: I can offer an alternative until the slider gets incorporated: Go back, go waaaaaaaaaaay back, to a DOS game called MoM (Master of Magic)! It works perfectly with dosbox and if im not all wrong it’s free by now. In that game your heroes start out most vulnerable, but with proper care you can foster them into demi-gods, singlehandedly wiping out armies without a drop of sweat 😉

    And aye, MoM is one of my alltime favorites: It’s like civilization with a roleplaying component and great replayability due to the many options regarding spellbooks/races/traits. Also, heroes’ inherent traits change each playthrough, so one hero being awesome one time might be rather “meeeh” the next time. A “lowcost” hero, with few special abilities, might turn out much stronger than a “highcost” one with many traits. Still have to wait for a fantasy game holdin’ the candle to this one.

    Hope my post was helpful!
    Cheers,
    Aed

    P.S.: Indeed it is abandonware by now, just checked, enjoy!

    #116460

    Narvek
    Keymaster

    Hi all,

    Thank you for the feedback concerning the level cap, but I am afraid chrysophylax is right: there never was a level cap higher than 20.
    The slider was not hooked up to any code whatsoever, there has always been a code limit of level 20.

    So it’s not just a case of removing some artificial limit, unfortunately.
    I’ll talk this over with the programmers.

    #116465

    NuMetal
    Member

    The slider was not hooked up to any code whatsoever, there has always been a code limit of level 20.

    Oh, I didn’t know that. Comes to show that I never got over 20 anyways before winning a game (but I dreamed about it^^)

    That puts it in a different perspective for me then. If it had just been an arbitrary restriction, I’d have seen no reason to increase the level cap again. But if it’d actually need to be implemented first…
    I guess it happens too seldom (if ever) to justify taking the ressources away from something more important to see it done. (Only my opinion of course.)

    #116472

    terrahero
    Member

    A slider would be nice i suppose, but for me its a non-priority. My Heroes at lv20 are ungodly beasts anyway, its not just having their skills and stats but also the gear you have collected at this point.

    If anything id maybe say, have a look at loot drops. Towards later game i still find a lot of trash i cannot use. And good, high-quality, mounts are exceedingly rare. And thats with dialing up Treasure sites to the max.

    #291641

    Jamesmocky
    Member

    Why is this thread making me so grumpy? I keep reading it over again and I don’t know why

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