King AI is kicking my butt

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This topic contains 18 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by  Williamvop 3 weeks, 5 days ago.

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  • #204692

    Ragic
    Member

    Not sure what I’m doing wrong but around the time I get my first city producing tier 3 units some AI player will gang rush me with 3 full stacks. How they get them I have no idea. Can never seem to keep up. Is there some standard early build order everyone knows and no one talks about?

    #204706

    Ericridge
    Member

    Well, to produce tier 3 units, you generally need a racial tier 3 building or tier 2/3 class buildings. It’s very likely that the Ai has produced the infrastructure needed to recruit the tier 3 units.

    And no, there isn’t really a standard build order, for this isn’t starcraft or something. It all depends on your starting terrain, and what you need.

    If anything, Builder Hall is usually built first. Can’t build stuff fast without it in a tiny outpost!

    If you really must have something.
    Builder Hall -> Store House -> Public Bathhouse -> Hospital.
    And that should give the city the needed happiness and is now ready for you to take it into any direction you want from it. But if you’re just recruiting mass tier 1/2s then you don’t need that chain at all.

    #204708

    Gloweye
    Member

    If King is to strong, put it back to Lord…

    Just wait with increasing difficulty with the current one becoming to easy.

    #204766

    Agent Fluff
    Member

    Expand your shit and get a decent economy. It’s also important that you have an army. I used to make that mistake before when I kept researching fancy stuff and building laboratories and observatories. But what did I have to show for it when the opponent showed up with an army? Since the AI is all-seeing, just having that bulk of units will make it less inclined to try and steamroll you. You probably knew this, but a walled city with archers works wonders for defense.

    Btw, the king AI gets more gold and research points and whatnot than you so it’s going to get stuff faster too. Plus it starts with 200 empire happiness.

    #204839

    Ragic
    Member

    lord ai is a breeze. that’s why I wondered If the solution for beating king was something other than just play better. regardless, they may want to look at the difficulty gap between lord and king because right now it seems pretty large and might turn off new players.

    #204874

    sharky
    Member

    The trick is this in AI’s in strategy games. And it is a part of age of wonders too. A smarter AI is very hard to achieve, so in essence what you tend to get more often is AI that can see through fog of war and always knows your unit count.
    Another thing I noticed is that the AI has a real struggle with stealth. If you can make a lot of units with stealth it will shit its pants on the assumption that any move it makes it will encounter all stealth units or a percentage. Which may cause the AI to steamroll you with 5 stacks while you aren’t doing anything well.
    Also the AI is terrible at army positioning. These factors make for a real potential to bait them. Like when you enter a dungeon/site with your troops and it says guaranteed victory when you run in with physical and blight damage vs undead. The AI makes hardcore judgement lapses based on threat by numbers.

    #204888

    Gloweye
    Member

    Difference between Difficulties is:

    Lord:
    33% bonus income
    100 empire happiness
    (slight buff to undead/machine regen)

    King

    66% bonus income
    200 Empire happiness
    (slight buff to undead/machine regen)
    (Slight buff to help clearing)

    King”

    100% bonus income
    300 Empire happiness
    (slight buff to undead/machine regen)
    (the same Slight buff to help clearing)

    However, the empire happiness may push the cities into another level of production, which is then further amplified by King’s higher income.

    also, when Lord is a breeze, you’re not a “new player”. There’s sufficient struggles against Squire AI out there.

    #204900

    quo
    Member

    My gut feeling is you are not being aggressive enough. Against AIs, you usually need to start hostilities with at least one player early (ideally someone close by) and start putting pressure on their cities. If they are allowed to sit back and build up, they will use their bonuses to full advantage. This will also somewhat allow you to pick off stacks early so they can’t grow into a doomstack.

    Also keep in mind that sometimes you will simply need to lose cities or retreat. That is just part of how it is. If you see a big stack coming you can’t stop, run for it (even burn the city down first if you have to).

    If they are getting so close to your capital, that’s another problem. You need to expand faster to keep them from coming for you. Aggression is key. Grab the cities they leave lightly defended.

    #204901

    emky
    Member

    I understand AI cheats (and as an experienced Civ player, get why they’re there). I just wish the AI were a little smarter sometimes. I cringe every time I see a unit walk forward, then back, then forward, then back. Yo-yo clearing, I call it.

    Since this thread’s on-topic about difficulty, can you guys give suggestions for a challenging, but not overkill, set up for two players hotseat allied vs AI? At squire, we never lost a battle against them. The AI just doesn’t seem to use settlers maybe? We play “few” villages.

    #204905

    Nodor
    Member

    I tend to think that your choices determine the best “starting strategy”.

    However, with the build:
    Builder Hall (Rush) -> Store House -> Public Bathhouse (Rush) -> Hospital. (Rush)

    Option 1:
    Barracks, War Hall, Racial (Rush) You should be able to produce tier 3’s around turn 10-12.

    Option 2:
    Wooden Wall, Shrine, Temple, Siege Workshop. : You should be able to chain produce your tier 2 support units at a rate of 1/turn.

    Option 3:
    Barracks, Shooting Grounds, Seige Workshop (if needed). You should be able to chain produce your archer units at a rate of 1/turn

    Option 4:
    Class Buildings as needed, production buildings as needed to produce class units.

    #204915

    Ragic
    Member

    some good tips. thanks. wasn’t sure if i should build tier 1-2 garrisons or just try to rush to special units. atm im playing orc warlord (expander, shadowborn master) and i kind of want that lvl bonus from dark citadel before producing teir1-2.

    still getting the hang of when to expand. if i goto war early even if i win and force their surrender, im still left weakened for the next ai player (who apparently has had no challenges up to that point and feels safe sending all his hero stacks at me at once).

    ive also given up on empire quests (at king level). pretty sure the ai players have a meeting and all agree on which empire quest they are going to rush for. which makes any attempt to build up evenly by me punished harshly. and perhaps im paranoid at this point but it also feels like hard cosmic events hit me first.

    perhaps there are certain game settings (map size, number of opponents, starting recources etc) that will promote the game flow im looking for but i haven’t found it yet. atm im trying

    medium map (above and below ground)
    5 players
    low starting resources
    weak starting units
    few (treasure, visit, etc)
    normal defender strength
    no empire quests
    weak cosmic
    heroes always have resurgence

    what is your preferred set up?

    #204923

    stellarrat
    Member

    I’ve found that building a pretty good sized army of level 1 and 2 units is critical at the beginning. I used to ignore my starting army in favor of city improvements, but is a mistake specially at higher AI levels. You have to good sized garrison or least armies that can rush to defend your cities if the enemy comes with big stacks. The only improvements I’d worry about at game start are building lumber walls. You can hold off a lot of enemies even level III with a bunch of missile troops, magic and some melee units to guard the gates.

    Another thing that will help: Make sure to post units on the outskirts of your empire to look for armies invading your territory. Fliers (crows, etc…) are awesome lookouts because they have a large sight radius.

    The second thing to note: Unless you’re playing one of the betas the AI isn’t using magic in tactical combat right now. So, if you thought Lord was too easy I’d think again. Once the AI starts using magic in combat again it will become much tougher.

    #204949

    Socratatus
    Member

    Not sure what I’m doing wrong but around the time I get my first city producing tier 3 units some AI player will gang rush me with 3 full stacks. How they get them I have no idea. Can never seem to keep up. Is there some standard early build order everyone knows and no one talks about?

    Don`t worry, King Ai still kicks my butt, but game by game I’m doing better.

    Bought this game off GOG!

    #251125

    Nerdfish
    Member

    Oh man we have a bot problem.
    As for AI kicking your asses: Increase the size of the map, reduce the number of AI and disable city founding. You can then laugh as the AI fumble around failing at economic growth.

    #251278

    NuMetal
    Member

    Hey there, Ragic!

    Since I don’t know your current playstyle I’m just going to assume you aren’t aggressive enough to beat the stronger AI.

    To win against King or Emperor AI you will have to learn to excel at manual combat and never use Autocombat ever. This way you make sure nothing dies and that you get the maximum Exp out of every encounter and also you can defeat stronger stacks earlier on. You mainly need to practice tactical combat because that’s where you can defy all odds.
    If you are good enough and are doing everything right you will basically never lose a unit in your main stacks and if you have a decent tactic it’ll be incredibly easy even against Emperor AIs.
    I’d suggest you start a game as Theocrat Orc and tech straight to Martyrs and build three of them so that you have a main stack of leader+hero+strong melee unit (if you start with a Shocktrooper that’d be perfect) and three Martyrs. After researching Martyrs you go straight for Empire Upgrades so that you get the empire upgrade that lets Martyrs evolve into Exlated as soon as possible. You use your main stack to pick every fight possible (in which you won’t lose a unit!), use absorb pain on leader, hero and shocktrooper and than attack and kill with those three (shocktrooper running to enemy and guarding there and heroes shooting from behind). Once you are sure to win also bring in the martyrs to get the kills if possible. if you do this you’ll have the Shocktrooper on gold medal or even Champion and the three Martyrs evolved to Exalted before turn twenty and from then on that stack is litterally unkillable because the exalted keep absorb pain. Also your leader and hero will have powerful abilities themself by then and even mythical sites will be a cake-walk for you. From then on just walk from opponent to opponent and kill everything you come past (every site, every unit running around, everything!) and just kill one opponent after the other. Nothing will be able to stop you and you will be snowballing hard since your leader will definitely also convert units on the way and all the shit you conquer will produce other armies as well.
    When I do this on Large maps I usually have won the game (as in nobody really has any chance to beat me anymore) by turn 50.
    Of course this is only one strategy amongst many super strong ones but it should teach you the “my first stack kills everything in its patch and not even capitals from other players can stop it” mode which you should always have against the AI.
    No matter what race/class you play you’ll always find a tactic that is strong enough to always win without any casualties on your side, it’s only important to get it rolling asap.

    MY DEEPEST APOLOGIES...

    #254894

    Robertmog
    Member

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    #256318

    MerlinRex
    Blocked

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    #256397

    Jyrgunkarrd
    Member

    Build order against the higher difficulty AI opponents isn’t as important as keeping your starting army stacks active & squeezing every bit of resource you can out of them each turn. Scout your surroundings, identify neutral towns / outposts, destroy monster & bandit spawn locations and capture any structure tiles that are going to fall within your capital borders (that last one is really important to do as quickly as you can, because every turn those structures sit inside your territory with you controlling them is wasted potential growth / income / production / etc).

    Kick out 2+ full army stacks to do your initial clearing / questing / scouting, and only after you’ve wrapped-up this exploration phase (which in AoW 3 tends to last much longer than in other 4X titles) should you really focus on vertical expansion within your cities. This is important because most of the time your exploration phase is going to really influence how you want to develop your cities (i.e., are you next to an aggressive AI kingdom that is unfriendly? Gear-up to start producing decent Tier 1 / Tier 2 units to deflect the likely coming attacks. Is there a big buffer between you and any likely opponent? Develop tech to prepare for mid & late game play. Etc).

    #257604

    Williamvop
    Member

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