Longswordman/Halberdier balance issue

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Longswordman/Halberdier balance issue

This topic contains 224 replies, has 21 voices, and was last updated by  Hatmage 3 years, 11 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 181 through 210 (of 225 total)
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  • #186240

    Hatmage
    Member

    @bouh, if you need “hooks” to justify guard breaker, familiarise yourself with the quillons or crossguard, AKA that part of most 2-handed swords mussing from the orc greatsword’s weapon but present o n the LSM’s. Traditionally, these are used to hook the opponent’s weapon, shield, neck et cetera, usually while half-swording. The shock trooper likely uses his hooked axe to the same effect rather than relying solely on muscle.

    #186294

    Draxynnic
    Member

    So your answer is “because orcs are stupid lotr beasts”. Yet IMO a huge hit from a greatsword will be far more effective to break a guard than any fencing shenanigans. We are talking about breaking a guard, not parying or counter attacking.

    Actually, having looked into some of the shenanigans you can pull with the historical medieval two-handed swords, this goes much deeper than “orcs are stupid lotr beasts”. It’s about the design of the weapon, not the wielder. The longswords aren’t the more advanced two-handers with parrying hooks, secondary grips for use while half-swording, and so on, but they do look like it’s possible to use that way. The “jagged shards of metal” that the orcs use, though, is basically only useful in the way that most fantasy games think two-handed swords are used – both hands below the crossguard at all times and swinging wildly.

    That said, I’m not convinced myself that guardbreaker is the best way to represent the possibility of halfswording.

    #186567

    Astraflame
    Member

    Add one damage for good measure, and you have a very good unit.

    It’s a raw damage approach specialized vs armored units, would certainly work, i just prefer a different approach but IMO +1 damage should be granted in any case unless the new inherent ability is above average(Guard breaker)

    I’d still think Martial art fits, human warlords might not like it though.

    I already said so. I would give him +1 Damage right away, being double-handed and missing a Shield because of that, and due to the stronger focus on offense (the Inf with Shield are focused more on defense), I would give them my tailor-made ability Rush, that would give +2 movement as long as there was no melee contact and as long the unit wouldn’t bleed.
    This would be both fitting and individual – and fill the purpose.

    The problem that i see is, the ability doesn’t exist. Probably better to suggest working abilities.

    #186635

    llfoso
    Member

    There aren’t many working abilities that fit. What about a straight +1 to both damage and defense? That would at least keep the people who like their humans bland happy.

    #186727

    Hatmage
    Member

    Martial arts and Guard breaker are thematic for their connection to historical armoured longsword fighting. Charge is weaker, but thematic for humans being the devastating charge, break them in one fell swoop race, but guard breaker also fits well with that theme. Armour piercing matches the unit description well, but fits poorly with the modeled weapon, and makes them even more similar to halberdiers. Armour piercing isn’t currently a major human strength, but could be justified on the longsword, knight and even perhaps civic guard if people felt it should be – not so much conforming to theme for the race as remaking theme in its’ own image.

    +1 to damage and defence might irritate dwarf players, though with humans in plate and dwarves in chain it does match the models. But we already have four (five counting Jolly Joker’s rush, but if they get it why wouldn’t infantry in lighter armour?) abilities that work well enough to choose from, so why take the boring route?

    #186834

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Ok, with Elven Swordman gaining a lot, LSM will gain as well. So let’s sum up.

    Basically, the LSM sacrifices the Shield for a Longsword, so mainly they should be like the Elven Swordman (minus 1 Res), except not getting the 2 Shield defense, but two damage instead. Which would be it – except that the HALBERDIER has Overwhelm, which should be the realm of the LSM. So maybe HALBERDIER should get something else than Overwhelm.

    Generally, since you need War Hall – how about dropping Overwhelm, getting Armor-Piercing inherent and Guard Breaker on Gold?

    #186858

    Astraflame
    Member

    Basically, the LSM sacrifices the Shield for a Longsword, so mainly they should be like the Elven Swordman (minus 1 Res), except not getting the 2 Shield defense, but two damage instead. Which would be it – except that the HALBERDIER has Overwhelm, which should be the realm of the LSM. So maybe HALBERDIER should get something else than Overwhelm.

    Elven swordmans also received new gold medal in First strike and bleeding wounds is still there at veteran, that’s two buffs in addition to the 1 point of defense so 3 buffs in total.

    Something similar should be done to the LSM, 1 point of damage and a new ability, bleeding wounds does not have to remain though. Human infantry is supposed to be a little better than the elven infantry, so it makes sense that there should be a new ability in addition to the 1 point of damage.

    #186877

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    TWO points of damage.

    Look. T1 racial Infantry is in the process of getting boosted and boosted mindlessly, because it is BOUND to be generally the most drab unit of all, but everyone wants them to be useful all the time.
    IMO, they ALL have become a lot better and better and yet better, abilities heaped on them – but you can’t do that endlessly without making everything else more mundane.

    With the Elves, the Pikeman is rather mundane – if that hasn’t changed right now. So with Humans the LSM would be mundane – only superior damage, but no fancy ability, while the Halberdier would be fancy in this case, with Guard Breaker on Gold and AP right away.
    Nothing wrong with going that road.

    A Racial Governance for them might be fine, then. ALL LSM gain First Strike.

    #186896

    Astraflame
    Member

    I thought you meant +2 more than the elf swordsman(base 10 so +1 gain)

    13 damage is the realm of the orc Greatsword, however now that Greatsword get war cry and RG1 +1 damage they would still reign supreme. I’d actually prefer this suggestion over armor piercing/+1dmg just because of the Halberdiers armor piercing.

    I don’t think LSM should have first strike though(Not even through RG), that’s more elven stuff(swiftness) and the utility of the Halberdier.

    #186903

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Right, that’s the point. Leave the LSM a simple armored Damage dealer with Overwhelm and Bleeding at Gold (fittingly), while taking away Overwhelm from the later available Halberdier, giving them Amor-Piercing right away and addding the fancy Guard Breaker at Gold (maybe for a 5 extra Gold).

    #186967

    Hatmage
    Member

    Overwhelm on halberdiers is really what makes humans competitive though. +8 Damage at base against knights, chargers, black knights and poorly equipped heroes, plus the guarantee that you will kill an equal number of enemy pikemen, excepting butchers. More useful than cavalry, knights and archers who don’t get their major selling point until gold medal rank, or priests with a broadly resisted damage type they themselves are not immune to, or civic guards who even with their gold medal perk and governance upgrade die like flies if the enemy so much as makes eye contact. So don’t nerf the halberdier. If anything, give this flagship unit a governance upgrade.

    I have one in mind, but it would require implementing a new ability.
    This ability would be called Riposte: This unit deals +2 damage with retaliation attacks.

    I would add it at base to the elven swordsman, and replace human military governance 1 with riposte and +1 resistance for both civic guards and halberdiers.
    While I’m blatantly fantasising, I would replace the second RG level with fire light crossbow and +1 ranged strength for human supports and archers, giving priests the ability to hurt machines and letting archers reposition easily without sacrificing all their damage.

    I’d probably also give humans just a small amount of spirit resistance to represent military discipline and suchlike.

    But none of these things are ever going to happen without mod tools. Some of you might even be grateful for that.

    #186994

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    However, making Halberdiers TOO useful by expanding them into the Infantry realm is EXACTLY what’s the problem here: Two Pikemen are not supposed to be better than a Pikeman and an LSM combined, because they should simply cover each other and deal with different things.

    #186997

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Guard breaker does have the advantage of giving the LSM a distinct role, and one that makes for a fitting combined arms operation. Consider means of dealing with enemy pikemen – you could match them with halberdiers, you could shoot them from afar, or you can use longswordmen to break up their formation (ie guard break) so another unit can come in and finish them off.

    However, an argument could be made that it takes more experienced soldiers (the kind that historically received double pay in the Landsknechtes, perhaps?) to do that. So maybe LSM could get something similar to elven swordsmen, except it’s +1 damage (don’t want them to have more armour than dwarves, but they’ve always had low damage for overwhelm infantry) instead of defence, and Guard Breaker at gold instead of First Strike?

    #187007

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Halberdiers would be the better Guard Breaker unit. In other words, it would be better to make the human pike less of a Sword and the Human Sword more of one, instead of having a Pike+Sword and making Swordman a Sword+Pike.

    #187009

    Hatmage
    Member

    Double pay is doppelsoldner – double soldier. Landsknecht means “free (as in freelance) Knight”.

    Historically, it was only experienced and wealthy soldier who used two handed swords at all – If you couldn’t afford plate you comensated with either a large shield or a long pole weapon so as to not die. Two handed swords only really came into their own in the age of plate, and were used by those who could buy plate and legally carry swords*, and were expensive in their own right as they required more skilled smiths and larger workshops than arming swords. The odds of anyone carrying one on a battlefield not having special training were low at best – they weren’t an investment made lightly, and it was often already experienced soldiers who saved up and bought them.
    Frankly, they aren’t the weapon I would have given human T1 infantry if I made the game, both because of their association with highly elite soldiers – not t1, in game terms? – and because with kite shields and arming swords the human infantry would not only have a niche, but they would all look like Oscar of Astora. If that makes me a pathetic fanboy, so be it.

    *The german word messer means knife, not sword. Because swords were useful, especially as sidearms, but only the noble or influentially rich could wear them. So people just made big knives, sometimes even two handed knives, and everyone just went along with it, as long as they only had one cutting edge.

    #187056

    Bouh
    Member

    However, making Halberdiers TOO useful by expanding them into the Infantry realm is EXACTLY what’s the problem here: Two Pikemen are not supposed to be better than a Pikeman and an LSM combined, because they should simply cover each other and deal with different things.

    This is very biased. Pikemen and swordmen have nothing to do together in an army. One is preferably on an open battlefield to threaten cavalry or in cities, and the other is preferably in an invasion force or a versatile harrassing task force.

    #187068

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    That’s what I said, didn’t I?

    #187079

    Bouh
    Member

    No. You said :

    Two Pikemen are not supposed to be better than a Pikeman and an LSM combined, because they should simply cover each other and deal with different things.

    There are definitely situations where two pikemen should be far better than a pikeman and a longsword, and situations where two longsword should be far better than a pikeman and a longsword.

    #187091

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    But not in general, and that’s what counts here. The only time when 2 T1 Pikemen should be better than a mix is when it’s against Cav/Flyers exclusively, which is what Pikemen are for, and picking THAT nitpicking as an objection is petty and ridiculous.

    #187116

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Double pay is doppelsoldner – double soldier. Landsknecht means “free (as in freelance) Knight”.

    The doppelsoldners were what I was referring to.

    Your translation of ‘landsknecht” is inaccurate. Historically, the landsknechts were mercenary bands which were predominantly pikemen, but also included supporting troops – including using two-handed swords, halberds, and firearms. The German “knecht” probably comes from the same root as “knight”, but translating one into the other is not actually accurate – the actual German term that translates into “knight” is “Ritter”. What Landsknechte actually translates to is “servants of the land”, more or less, with none of the implications of nobility of the English term “knight”.

    #187142

    Bouh
    Member

    But not in general, and that’s what counts here. The only time when 2 T1 Pikemen should be better than a mix is when it’s against Cav/Flyers exclusively, which is what Pikemen are for, and picking THAT nitpicking as an objection is petty and ridiculous.

    You see, that’s why we disagree so much. You are thinking in term of tactical role when I am thinking in term of strategic role.

    What you say is true tacticaly, but strategicaly your pikemen are not good to invade any territory. And strategicaly, longsword will never ever be better than pikemen in city defense. Because strategicaly, flyers are dangerous when they attack cities, and pikemen shine the most when they defend cities because they can shut down the gates or cover archers which are also best here than anywhere else. Tacticaly though the pikemen are useless when invading, because cavalry and flyers will simply avoid them, and in siege they will be raped by ennemy archers. Tacticaly though indeed they would better be together, but as the strategic situation where they would be better together doesn’t exists in the game, the point is moot.

    #187145

    freese2112
    Member

    TWO points of damage.

    Look. T1 racial Infantry is in the process of getting boosted and boosted mindlessly, because it is BOUND to be generally the most drab unit of all, but everyone wants them to be useful all the time.<br>
    IMO, they ALL have become a lot better and better and yet better, abilities heaped on them – but you can’t do that endlessly without making everything else more mundane.

    With the Elves, the Pikeman is rather mundane – if that hasn’t changed right now. So with Humans the LSM would be mundane – only superior damage, but no fancy ability, while the Halberdier would be fancy in this case, with Guard Breaker on Gold and AP right away.<br>
    Nothing wrong with going that road.

    A Racial Governance for them might be fine, then. ALL LSM gain First Strike.

    Just my $.02 – but the Union Guard trading 2 physical for 2 shock, and getting inflict shocking (I think at veteran), along with the very accessible Pillar of Stylites (3 channel damage) makes them VERY useful, and anything but mundane.

    Agree that there is some MAJOR power creep going on in the game to try and keep the original races at par with the new races (especially the Tigran).

    #187150

    freese2112
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Jolly Joker wrote:</div>
    But not in general, and that’s what counts here. The only time when 2 T1 Pikemen should be better than a mix is when it’s against Cav/Flyers exclusively, which is what Pikemen are for, and picking THAT nitpicking as an objection is petty and ridiculous.

    You see, that’s why we disagree so much. You are thinking in term of tactical role when I am thinking in term of strategic role.

    What you say is true tacticaly, but strategicaly your pikemen are not good to invade any territory. And strategicaly, longsword will never ever be better than pikemen in city defense. Because strategicaly, flyers are dangerous when they attack cities, and pikemen shine the most when they defend cities because they can shut down the gates or cover archers which are also best here than anywhere else. Tacticaly though the pikemen are useless when invading, because cavalry and flyers will simply avoid them, and in siege they will be raped by ennemy archers. Tacticaly though indeed they would better be together, but as the strategic situation where they would be better together doesn’t exists in the game, the point is moot.

    Bouh – again aren’t you assuming that the “invader” in this case is stupid and doesn’t have anything to address the walls & gates issue? It just seems that you’re so focused on the Halberdiers limitations during sieges that your painting them as significant behind LSM when with just a little bit of forethought (siege equipment, flyer/floaters of your own, etc.) a smart player can still make use of them even in sieges. I also really like to have Pike (or Cav) to support my archers in a siege to act as a deterrent if the defenders have flying units so they can’t sally.

    Again – Halberdiers aren’t as effective as infantry in the sieges (not the most common battle), but they are at least equivalent to infantry in most every other aspect of the game, and have HUGE functionality when it comes to dealing with Cav & Flyers.

    #187167

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Jolly Joker wrote:</div>
    But not in general, and that’s what counts here. The only time when 2 T1 Pikemen should be better than a mix is when it’s against Cav/Flyers exclusively, which is what Pikemen are for, and picking THAT nitpicking as an objection is petty and ridiculous.

    You see, that’s why we disagree so much. You are thinking in term of tactical role when I am thinking in term of strategic role.

    What you say is true tacticaly, but strategicaly your pikemen are not good to invade any territory. And strategicaly, longsword will never ever be better than pikemen in city defense. Because strategicaly, flyers are dangerous when they attack cities, and pikemen shine the most when they defend cities because they can shut down the gates or cover archers which are also best here than anywhere else. Tacticaly though the pikemen are useless when invading, because cavalry and flyers will simply avoid them, and in siege they will be raped by ennemy archers. Tacticaly though indeed they would better be together, but as the strategic situation where they would be better together doesn’t exists in the game, the point is moot.

    Completely beside any relevant point. Give the Inf Pike Square and Pole Arm, and you don’t need the Pikeman anymore.
    Which is what happens here and what actually started the thread: with the Halberdier not only being good against Cav and Flyer, but with Overwhelm now good against Shielded and Pikemen as well – there is LESS need to hire the LSM. What is left, is Wall Climbing – and frankly, if you can field Halberdiers, no matter what you play you should be able to field better city attackers than LSM.

    So the point I tried to make was, that if you want to make the LSM better, it makes no sense, since you have a Pikeman that can be a Swordman as well, to make the Swordman more like a Pikeman, endng with two units that can do everything the other can do, except one can climb walls and the other defend against Cavs and Flyers.

    Instead they should have as few common abilities as possible. Which means, Overwhelm for Halberdiers may be a good thing for them, but automatically decreases the need to build LSM; no matter what you say, if you can pick between them what to build, thinking of city attack you will have better options than an LSM.

    #187190

    Bouh
    Member

    Again – Halberdiers aren’t as effective as infantry in the sieges (not the most common battle), but they are at least equivalent to infantry in most every other aspect of the game, and have HUGE functionality when it comes to dealing with Cav & Flyers.

    City sieges do are the most common battles. Why would cavalry or flyers fight your pikemen in the open ground ?

    And the problem with assumptions is that it’s not comprehensive : if you assume perfect scenario for the pikeman and worst scenario for the longsword, the pikeman is better, but the comparison is flawed.

    Which is what happens here and what actually started the thread: with the Halberdier not only being good against Cav and Flyer, but with Overwhelm now good against Shielded and Pikemen as well – there is LESS need to hire the LSM. What is left, is Wall Climbing – and frankly, if you can field Halberdiers, no matter what you play you should be able to field better city attackers than LSM.

    Pike comes with a drawback the LSM doesn’t have : overwhelm. And LSM have one more armour. And wall climbing.

    Of course I focus on wall climbing because it is a strategic advantage of the LSM that gives him a function, but other advantages are still there. That you ignore them is another problem.

    #187204

    freese2112
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>freese2112 wrote:</div>
    Again – Halberdiers aren’t as effective as infantry in the sieges (not the most common battle), but they are at least equivalent to infantry in most every other aspect of the game, and have HUGE functionality when it comes to dealing with Cav & Flyers.

    City sieges do are the most common battles. Why would cavalry or flyers fight your pikemen in the open ground ?

    And the problem with assumptions is that it’s not comprehensive : if you assume perfect scenario for the pikeman and worst scenario for the longsword, the pikeman is better, but the comparison is flawed.

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Jolly Joker wrote:</div>
    Which is what happens here and what actually started the thread: with the Halberdier not only being good against Cav and Flyer, but with Overwhelm now good against Shielded and Pikemen as well – there is LESS need to hire the LSM. What is left, is Wall Climbing – and frankly, if you can field Halberdiers, no matter what you play you should be able to field better city attackers than LSM.

    Pike comes with a drawback the LSM doesn’t have : overwhelm. And LSM have one more armour. And wall climbing.

    Of course I focus on wall climbing because it is a strategic advantage of the LSM that gives him a function, but other advantages are still there. That you ignore them is another problem.

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>freese2112 wrote:</div>
    Again – Halberdiers aren’t as effective as infantry in the sieges (not the most common battle), but they are at least equivalent to infantry in most every other aspect of the game, and have HUGE functionality when it comes to dealing with Cav & Flyers.

    City sieges do are the most common battles. Why would cavalry or flyers fight your pikemen in the open ground ?

    And the problem with assumptions is that it’s not comprehensive : if you assume perfect scenario for the pikeman and worst scenario for the longsword, the pikeman is better, but the comparison is flawed.

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Jolly Joker wrote:</div>
    Which is what happens here and what actually started the thread: with the Halberdier not only being good against Cav and Flyer, but with Overwhelm now good against Shielded and Pikemen as well – there is LESS need to hire the LSM. What is left, is Wall Climbing – and frankly, if you can field Halberdiers, no matter what you play you should be able to field better city attackers than LSM.

    Pike comes with a drawback the LSM doesn’t have : overwhelm. And LSM have one more armour. And wall climbing.

    Of course I focus on wall climbing because it is a strategic advantage of the LSM that gives him a function, but other advantages are still there. That you ignore them is another problem.

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>freese2112 wrote:</div>
    Again – Halberdiers aren’t as effective as infantry in the sieges (not the most common battle), but they are at least equivalent to infantry in most every other aspect of the game, and have HUGE functionality when it comes to dealing with Cav & Flyers.

    City sieges do are the most common battles. Why would cavalry or flyers fight your pikemen in the open ground ?

    And the problem with assumptions is that it’s not comprehensive : if you assume perfect scenario for the pikeman and worst scenario for the longsword, the pikeman is better, but the comparison is flawed.

    Bouh – you absolutely crack me up. I assume the perfect scenario for the pikeman, while you apparently are giving an unbiased view by limiting your evaluation of the units to strictly sieges? Really? You are the one who seems to assumes that every battle is a siege where the defender has stone walls and the attacker is so stupid as to not have either siege units or other ways to deal with the city walls (flyers, floaters, phase, significant ranged unit advantage, demolisher, etc) and expect the Halberdiers to have to “carry the load”.

    IMO, you are so tied to your own play-style that you are completely unable to acknowledge that there might be a different perspective to evaluate the units. I would expect that you think that flying or floating units are MUCH MUCH better to have because since every battle is a siege those units get to completely ignore walls and aren’t exposed?

    #187226

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Jolly Joker wrote:</div>
    Which is what happens here and what actually started the thread: with the Halberdier not only being good against Cav and Flyer, but with Overwhelm now good against Shielded and Pikemen as well – there is LESS need to hire the LSM. What is left, is Wall Climbing – and frankly, if you can field Halberdiers, no matter what you play you should be able to field better city attackers than LSM.

    Pike comes with a drawback the LSM doesn’t have : overwhelm. And LSM have one more armour. And wall climbing.

    Of course I focus on wall climbing because it is a strategic advantage of the LSM that gives him a function, but other advantages are still there. That you ignore them is another problem.

    Pike comes with an advantage LSM doesn’t have: First Strike; LSM comes with a Drawback Pike doesn’t have: Charge.
    And city sieges are definitely the RAREST battles in the game.

    Which is all completely beside the actual point and that is, it makes no sense to give those two the same abilities. The argument you try to pick here is just mirrors and smoke.

    #187238

    Bouh
    Member

    IMO, you are so tied to your own play-style that you are completely unable to acknowledge that there might be a different perspective to evaluate the units.

    THERE WE ARE ! PLAYSTYLE !

    What I’m saying from the begining.

    YOU find longswordmen utterly worthless. I don’t. There is no reason for any one of us to be more stupid than the other, so we might actualy be both right.

    HENCE, the problem YOU have with the longsword probably comes from your playstyle and not from the unit.

    Now, I’m not even against a buff to the longsword, I’m only against a buff that would make him a defensive unit like the halberd, because it’s a nonsense. We already had this discussion BTW about 2 pages ago.

    Were we actualy disagree is that YOU think the halberdier obsolete the longswordman while I think it’s not the case. And as I find a use to the longswordman and YOU don’t, I am probably more right than you, unless you consider me stupid and bad at the game.

    And then we argue about how overwhelm is only single ability that matter on the longswordman or not (it’s not), so I point you to the FUCKING ONE POINT OF DEFENSE the longsword have over the halberdier. And then you answer FIRST STRIKE ! And then, I answer I WANT TO ATTACK !! And then, you reply that you can use something else to make the halberdier work on offense, and I answer AGAIN that I don’t care about the sacrifice YOU are willing to make to make the halberdier better in the cases he isn’t. And then we start again, but I don’t remember exactly where, sorry, I’ll need your help on that.

    And city sieges are definitely the RAREST battles in the game.

    They aren’t unless you consider battles against independants which more often have monsters and undead than flyers and cavalry, and are anyway one sided, so a pike or a longsword actualy doesn’t matter at all. We already had this argument.

    #187254

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Dude, you are mistaking me with someone else. I don’t find LSM utterly useless, on the contrary, and you constantly ignore what I say and answer to things I don’t and assume bullcrap – discussion useless.

    Tombles seems to have decided anyway, and since I’m the one who came up with Guard Breaker in the first place I consider this discussion finished.

    #187259

    llfoso
    Member

    What do you guys think of the buff?

    Human Longswordman now has attack 12 (was 11), and Guard Breaker on Gold medal (was Inflict Bleeding Wounds)

    I think it’s good, although they could still use armor piercing at recruit or something.

    I’ve come around to armor piercing. I like the idea they’re using an estoc.

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