Making currently rarely used units more useful

We’ve moved over to the paradox forums. Please come visit us there to discuss:
You can still read the collective wisdom - and lolz - of the community here, but posting is no longer possible.

Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Making currently rarely used units more useful

This topic contains 170 replies, has 22 voices, and was last updated by  Rodmar18 4 months ago.

Viewing 21 posts - 151 through 171 (of 171 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #253903

    NINJEW
    Member

    honestly at this point we might as well ask “what if succubi had a touch seduce ability that 100% guaranteed conversion.” make it wear off after 2 turns or something. it’d make them dominant in small skirmishes (which rogue is supposed to be dominant in already, that succubi are better suited for engaging in than SS, due to their extra mobility), and useful in larger battles to have alongside shadow stalkers (with clear downsides. its a touch ability, so the succubus must expose herself to perform it, a larger battle is more likely to last long enough for the conversion to wear off, and converting one unit isn’t as meaningful in an 18 vs 18 fight as it is in a 3v3 fight).

    could sub out “100% success rate” for “crazy high strength.” i immediately see “if 18 succubi fight it out with 18 dragons, the succubi could turn 1 convert every dragon and insta-win” so it’s really more of a thought experiment than a proper suggestion.

    personally, as a more serious suggestion, if we’re going to move towards “succubi should be better at conversion” i’d really rather see just giving them a second conversion ability over trying to finagle the perfect strength of seduce. just make them the only non-hero conversion unit that gets a second try. they come out so late that snowballing with them isn’t that big a concern, and the current state of balance wrt conversion still applies to them (they have all the same counters and weaknesses of other conversion units still)

    #253906

    Zaskow
    Member

    Btw, is it possible to create a “drain MCI” ability?…

    Sadly, but no…

    a.2/ Produce Succubi costs 300 RP (was 400 RP) and Produce Shadow Stalker 900 RP (was 800 RP)

    c.2/ Succubi cost 150 gold and 30 mana (was 170 gold and 30 mana)

    d.5/ Succubi cost 140 gold and 25 mana (was 170 gold and 30 mana), do not have Steal Enchantment at Veteran any more, have 55 HP (was 60 HP) and gets Vision Range Upgrade at Elite (was Life Drain) — make them better scouts
    d.6/ Succubi cost 150 gold and 30 mana (was 170 gold and 30 mana), do not have Life Steal at Elite any more, and gets Lesser Bard Skill at Veteran (was Steal Enchantment) — make them better supports (other options for the additional skills could be a strategic Healing Aura or a Healing touch ability, etc.)
    d.7/ Succubi get Life Steal at Recruit (and their 2nd copy at Elite thus gives them Life Drain) — make them better fighters
    d.8/ Succubi get Backstab or an Inflict ability (e.g. Inflict Weakened for Goblin, Inflict Chilling for Frostlings, etc.) or — make them better fighters
    d.9/ Succubi get a stronger failure effect on Seduce instead of Shaken (for example Dazed or Broken Spirit) or Seduce is made more effective on specific races based on the race of the Succubi (e.g. Orc Succubi Seduces Orc units more easily) — make them better mind-controler
    d.10/ Bards lose Charm but gets an AoE ability that prevents Animals and Monsters from acting and slows down other units — nerf the mind-control of Bards to make the mind-control of Succubi more useful

    A2. This won’t change anything.
    C2. For.
    D5. Against.
    D6. Against, coz not very amazing. Even with these changes for succubi evangelists are better supports.
    D7. For.
    D8. For. Backstab is very fitting. However, we could just add supports to the list of unit types which inflicted by Assassin Training.
    D9. Won’t help and potential very cancerously.
    D10. Bards deserve some buffs, coz they’re pretty boring units now, but not nerfs.

    a/ make them easier to build (reduce the length of their building chain and reduce the costs of the building)
    – a.1/ move T1 from War Hall to Barracks and T2 from Barracks to War Hall
    – a.2/ change the building chains and costs for the Fey Dwelling:
    100 gold – T1 building – same as Barracks
    150 gold (unchanged) – T2 building – 25 lower than War Hall
    250 gold – T3 building (and replace some gold by mana?) – 50 gold lower and 100 mana lower than the T3 racial building
    Make it possible to build the Nymphs and Unicorns’ buildings if you have the T1 building, and reduce their cost to maybe 100 each.
    Keep the defense building in a separate building chain.
    a.3/ change the building chains and costs for the Archon Revenant Dwelling:
    50 gold (was 100) for the Graveyard – unlocks Infantry
    50 gold (was 100) for the Charnel House – unlocks Archer; total cost of unlocking Infantry and Archer = 100, similar to Barracks
    50 gold and 25 mana (was 50+50) for Sigil of Awakening – gives +10 mana/turn, similar cost (75) to Shrine
    Obelisk of Undeath – gives Cursed to enemy units in domain; what cost decrease?
    Barrow – unlock Caster; add mana bonus or reduce cost?
    Haunted vault needs the same buildings as Barrow (and does not need Barrow any more, as it produces a T2). Its cost is 135 gold and 40 mana (was 160 gold and 40 mana), as War Hall

    b/ make other units harder to build (e.g. add some additional buildings in their building chains or increase the costs of existing buildings)

    c/ make them cheaper or other units more expensive
    – c.1/ split War Hall into two buildings: one for 75 gold to produce the non-cavalry unit (and allow the construction of Guards’ House), and a second, the Stable for 100 gold, to build the cavalry unit (and allow the construction of Riders’ Hall). The Stable requires the 1st building to be built.

    d/ boost their stats or weaken the stats of other units
    – d.1/ boost T1 and T2 currently unused through Racial Governance and make them T1.5 or T2.5 (including upkeep and production cost increase) [not detailed here, though JJ made some good proposals, because we’ll open a discussion on overhauling RG later, and it won’t be limited to “rarely used units”]
    – d.2/ add a building that boost unused T1 and T2 and make them T1.5 or T2.5 (including upkeep and production cost increase)

    e/ give them more abilities or more interactions with other units
    – e.1/ give Infantry T1 Volunteer or a specific ability (like Night Watch’s Urban Concealment) to fill a specific role and be useful in complement to the basic Irregular
    – e.2/ give Evolve to T1 to give them a second life in later game (see Empire Building mod)
    – e.3/ Orc Razorbows get “Point Blank Deadshot”, short range 9 damage (after Orc modifier) ranged attack
    – e.4/ Orc Impalers get “Impaling” (Impalers get a chance with each attack to immobilize the attacked unit) and cost +5 Gold
    f/ other
    – f.1/ increase the income generated by Dwellings to make them more useful to control
    – f.2/ make Dwellings targetable by spells that boost cities (and do not affect population) such as Mana Fuel Cell

    A1. Neutral.
    C1. Dislike, bad suggestion.
    D1, D2. Neutral.
    E1. For.
    E2. Do you want more cancerous mechanics in game, right?
    E3. Seriously??? What a horrible ability, dislike. Come later with more decent idea.
    E4. For.
    F1, F2. For.

    #254861

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Reposting here the feedback from Gladis (a while ago) that he sent only by PM:
    “Making Succubi Irregulars is a good idea as Rogue Supports don´t get any buffs via research. Otherwise we could give them Guard Breaker or Taunt (which works as Guard Breaker) In this way they work well with backstabbing Units.

    The Problem of Succubi becoming irregulars could be “Structural Insight”. It has switched to Rogué [in the balance mod]. Flying Succubi with fire resistance and Projectile resistance (Dwarf?) would be an excellent Counter vs flame tanks. So DN will have a hard life vs Rogue even in Late Game. But if you consider this as a Problem too, we could just make Structural Insigth work only for T1 and T2 (no shpinx as well?). Irregular Training could be the same.”

    #254872

    Not sure if mentioned, but iirc seduce is a touch ability. What if the succubus version was ranged?

    #254873

    Gloweye
    Member

    Not sure if mentioned, but iirc seduce is a touch ability. What if the succubus version was ranged?

    That would just turn Succubus into a flying Evangelist with Throw Curse ?

    #254874

    @ Gloweye, I lack the willpower to go through the entire conversation in detail, so I just skim read it. I never personally thought Succubus were underpowered but people clearly do here.

    #254877

    Gloweye
    Member

    Yeah, me to. But I just really dislike ranged conversion. I was against it for charm, and im against it for succubi.

    #257408

    Hiliadan
    Member

    (3) Succubus should probably regenerate better or have projectile resistance.

    This inspires me an idea: Succubi could get Fast Healing at Veteran, which would make them both more useful to fill the role described by Jean (a group of 2-3 Succubi clearing an unexplored side of the map on their own) and better at the role I prefer for them: sniping cities, scouting and counter-spying (anti-concealment) (a real niche for this unit, that no other unit can fill).

    + new proposals based on latest comments:
    d.11/ Succubi get another version of Throw curse that can never miss (unless the target is immune)

    d.12/ Succubi get “Mystified Seduction” which is stronger and has wider target audience – machines could be on the list as being vulnerable through their crews, and undead

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by  Hiliadan.
    #257411

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Current shortlist:
    – c.2/ Succubi cost 150 gold and 30 mana (was 170 gold and 30 mana)
    – e.1/ give Infantry T1 Volunteer or a specific ability (like Night Watch’s Urban Concealment) to fill a specific role and be useful in complement to the basic Irregular
    – e.4/ Orc Impalers get “Impaling” (Impalers get a chance with each attack to immobilize the attacked unit) and cost +5 Gold

    That’s pretty short!! All the rest got very mixed feedback with some people for and some people against and no consensus.

    #257412

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I can only repeat myself: The Succbus isn’t a Support unit because it doesn’t support. Throw Curse isn’t really a support ability. And “sniping cities, scouting and counter-spying” is also not fitting for a support.
    Making the Succubus an Irregular solves actually a lot, if not every conceivable issue you may have with them.

    #257413

    Zaskow
    Member

    I can only repeat myself: The Succbus isn’t a Support unit because it doesn’t support.

    Well, most supports in game isn’t support at all, coz they have powerful attack and non-support abilities (racial supports of orcs, elves, goblins, tigrans), partially bards and wraiths are horrible supports too.
    While I tend to agree that Irregular tag is more fitting for Succubus and it could resolve all their problems.

    #258455

    xlnt
    Member

    Hi guys – first a sorry for being late to join in and another sorry if i seem to be rude in the text that follows… i tried provocative but who knows (:

    t3 CLASS unit to be an off-side clearing sites stack means we’ll never get those units in a serious game – the map is long cleared by the time we get those units out anyway

    class units should provide army to go finish the game – as the shadow demons do, as the exalted do. anything short of that is not solving the issue – if we want support, give the Succubus blight weakness and lifesteal and some blight dmg. to their attack, seems like support to me, supports rogues having a lot of blight dmg. (;

    as fot t1 units – we have to give those a role. pikes should move to barracks imo. maybe let us get swordsmen without baracks – as better defenders instead of irregulars. but i wouldn’t like to just have buffier swordsmen.

    to make them have a role in battle we have to go with some tank skill – like lesser guard? (15% dmg reduction + gets hurt at 50% of the dmg done to the target, something in those lines)

    for irregulars to be used i would have them be useful like the human ones (reduced gold per turn AND throw net – well, sign me up!) maybe some skill where those units die at and of combat BUT they defend really well – sacrifice, explode when dead use buff to get major stats but die. so they get useful and we have to make them all the time. but make the skill useful only in towns/forts. this could hurt or buff WarLord too much – so we have to be careful.

    as for the proposed solutions – i don’t like them but to be a team player:

    a.1) ok, but don’t move cavalry and leave t3 at War Hall
    a.2) ok, but leave t3 building cost at 4turns to get it
    a.3) totaly ok with all
    b – no
    c – not a bad idea, i’m ok
    d1/2 – no
    e.1 – YES, make a role for t1 units
    e.2 – NO! no more evolve!
    e.3 – yeah, whatever – orkz with bows – hehe, cute
    e.4 – good idea, pikes are strong anyway
    f.1 – seems ok, has to be tested and not buffed too much
    f.2 – no, some classes are waaaaay to beneficent of this

    thanks for reading

    #258459

    Hiliadan
    Member

    For the record, xlnt is also against d.5 to d.11 and c.2.

    Thanks to him for the feedback, so a few proposals move to the next stage:
    a.1/ move T1 from War Hall to Barracks and T2 from Barracks to War Hall
    That translates into: all Pikeman racial units except Goblin Butcher and Frostling Royal Guard are now available at Barracks (was War Hall), right?

    c.2/ ==> Ro17 Succubi cost 150 gold and 30 mana (was 170 gold and 30 mana)

    e.4/ ==> Or03 Orc Impalers get “Impaling” (Impalers get a chance with each attack to immobilize the attacked unit) and cost +5 Gold

    e.1/ give Infantry T1 Volunteer or a specific ability (like Night Watch’s Urban Concealment) to fill a specific role and be useful in complement to the basic Irregular
    But needs further refinement.

    These ones are dropped:
    d.5/ Succubi cost 140 gold and 25 mana (was 170 gold and 30 mana), do not have Steal Enchantment at Veteran any more, have 55 HP (was 60 HP) and gets Vision Range Upgrade at Elite (was Life Drain) — make them better scouts

    d.9/ Succubi get a stronger failure effect on Seduce instead of Shaken (for example Dazed or Broken Spirit) or Seduce is made more effective on specific races based on the race of the Succubi (e.g. Orc Succubi Seduces Orc units more easily) — make them better mind-controler

    d.10/ Bards lose Charm but gets an AoE ability that prevents Animals and Monsters from acting and slows down other units — nerf the mind-control of Bards to make the mind-control of Succubi more useful

    e.2/ give Evolve to T1 to give them a second life in later game (see Empire Building mod)

    And these ones are still under discussion:
    – a.2/ Produce Succubi costs 300 RP (was 400 RP) and Produce Shadow Stalker 900 RP (was 800 RP)

    – c.1/ split War Hall into two buildings: one for 75 gold to produce the non-cavalry unit (and allow the construction of Guards’ House), and a second, the Stable for 100 gold, to build the cavalry unit (and allow the construction of Riders’ Hall). The Stable requires the 1st building to be built.

    d.1/ boost T1 and T2 currently unused through Racial Governance and make them T1.5 or T2.5 (including upkeep and production cost increase) [not detailed here, though JJ made some good proposals, because we’ll open a discussion on overhauling RG later, and it won’t be limited to “rarely used units”]

    d.2/ add a building that boost unused T1 and T2 and make them T1.5 or T2.5 (including upkeep and production cost increase)

    d.6/ Succubi cost 150 gold and 30 mana (was 170 gold and 30 mana), do not have Life Steal at Elite any more, and gets Lesser Bard Skill at Veteran (was Steal Enchantment) — make them better supports (other options for the additional skills could be a strategic Healing Aura or a Healing touch ability, etc.)

    d.7/ Succubi get Life Steal at Recruit (and their 2nd copy at Elite thus gives them Life Drain) — make them better fighters

    d.8/ Succubi get Backstab or an Inflict ability (e.g. Inflict Weakened for Goblin, Inflict Chilling for Frostlings, etc. or Inflict Curse) or — make them better fighters

    d.11/ Succubi get another version of Throw curse that can never miss (unless the target is immune)

    d.12/ Succubi get “Mystified Seduction” which is stronger and has wider target audience – machines could be on the list as being vulnerable through their crews, and undead

    e.3/ Orc Razorbows get “Point Blank Deadshot”, short range 9 damage (after Orc modifier) ranged attack

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by  Hiliadan.
    #258462

    Hiliadan
    Member

    e.1/ give Infantry T1 Volunteer or a specific ability (like Night Watch’s Urban Concealment) to fill a specific role and be useful in complement to the basic Irregular
    But needs further refinement.

    Some ideas from SeeR:
    High Elf Swordsman gets Forest Concealment
    Human Longswordsman gets Fast Embark
    Draconian Crusher already boosted by RG
    Orc Greatsword already has War Cry
    Frostling Raider (32 MP), Dwarf Axeman (Defensive Strike), Tigran Prowler (T2), Goblin Marauder (Cave Concealment, Volunteer) already OK

    Also, xlnt proposed to give them:

    some tank skill – like lesser guard? (15% dmg reduction + gets hurt at 50% of the dmg done to the target, something in those lines)

    I think we have other ideas in the pages of this thread but not motivated to go fish them…

    #258474

    devolution
    Member

    I don’t think conversion has been nerfed enough. What about a mana upkeep rather than gold upkeep to represent the “magical forces” that “enslave/bind” the converted unit to the will of the converter. The mana upkeep could be the same as the upkeep in gold, so a converted T3 would cost 16g + 16mana. If you think this is harsh, then I don’t agree. Conversion should not have been in the game to begin with in my opinion.

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by  devolution.
    #258479

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Check out http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/suggestion-conversion-limit/, it’s a better place to discuss mind-control. I think it’s written there too that it’s not possible to add mana upkeep to mind-controlled units because the upkeep modifier can only be a multiplier of existing upkeep and the current mana upkeep is 0.

    #271301

    Hiliadan
    Member

    e.1/ give Infantry T1 Volunteer or a specific ability (like Night Watch’s Urban Concealment) to fill a specific role and be useful in complement to the basic Irregular
    But needs further refinement.

    Some ideas from SeeR:
    High Elf Swordsman gets Forest Concealment
    Human Longswordsman gets Fast Embark
    Draconian Crusher already boosted by RG
    Orc Greatsword already has War Cry
    Frostling Raider (32 MP), Dwarf Axeman (Defensive Strike), Tigran Prowler (T2), Goblin Marauder (Cave Concealment, Volunteer) already OK

    Also, xlnt proposed to give them:

    some tank skill – like lesser guard? (15% dmg reduction + gets hurt at 50% of the dmg done to the target, something in those lines)

    I think we have other ideas in the pages of this thread but not motivated to go fish them…

    What everyone thinks of SeeR’s ideas? Any more ideas?

    #271305

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I think I already posted that the problem with Elves isn’t that Swordman is not good enough, the problem is, that between Longbowmen, Unicorn Riders Storm Sisters and Gryphon Riders (plus class units)´there is just no need for the others, except as fillers, especialy with Elven RG not supporting them.

    If you want a better Elven balance you need to change the RG.

    #273688

    Frank327
    Member

    Okay, haven’t played AoW3 for a long time but picked it up again and I was thinking about exactly the balance issues in this thread. Basically because of the race vs. class format in this game, where race units have to have all the roles and class adds flavour, race units feel bland. Also many of the T1 are still underwhelming. My solutions:

    1. Give every race an extra T2 unit (like the goblin butcher) but switch around the order of roles between races.

    So every race needs every role in t1 and t2. But who says that all other roles than cavalry and support are always T1? For humans as an example, why not make halberdier the basic unit (remove overwhelm and a bit of melee power), archer and longswordsman still barracks units, and have a T2 irregular unit much like the AoW2 swashbuckler from the war hall? Then you can add a unit with real flavour (swimming, fire pistol, improved wall climbing) to the race while still having all roles in the race selection. That way you can make all T2 units have more flavour and usefulness throughout the game while keeping the tactical flexibility in the race. It essentially solves two problems, race flavour and the reducing the number of useless units.

    2. Add production overflow to the unit type buildings.
    Right now (as an example) an arena only gives your infantry a promotion. That still doesn’t make your T1 infantry viable. But why not add the ability to make multiple infantry in a single turn to the building? Lots of cities have 80+ production, which usually means you have the choice between building 1 T1 unit or 1 T2 unit. But with this change you would have the choice between 2 longswordsmen or 1 cavalry. Suddenly that’s a much more balanced choice if you quickly need reinforcements, and the infrastructure required is 125g cheaper.

    Obviously this probably won’t be changed in AoW3 anymore but maybe they’re nice ideas for mods or the next game.

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by  Frank327.
    • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by  Frank327.
    #273778

    Damkac
    Member

    Frank327 can you read minds? Because I had exactly the same idea as yours including making halberdier the basic unit for humans and swashbuckler a tier 2 irregular!

    #273789

    Rodmar18
    Member

    Hello, two ideas:

      Lesser Evolution for T1 units.
      Azktor Wansgen remembered of Empire Building Mod having most under-used T1 units evolving into new, über-units (I don’t know, up to T2-like units?).
      Instead of having an automatic evolution at gold medal, we could have a “lesser”, non automatic evolution. I already proposed this elsewhere (PBEM & Solo Balance mod).
      Allow T1 irregulars, infantry and class units to have a little chance to turn into a stronger vanilla unit (not a new one). Chance could be like 20%? Only interest would be to get a T2 or T3 unit for less (but more XP). Would this entice players to keep one such T1 unit in some of their stacks?
      Irregulars could be promoted as regular Swordsmen (and keep their irregular buffs?).
      Swordsmen could be promoted as Berserkers or mounted sword bearers (i.e. Cavalry for Goblin, Draconian, …).
      Pikemen could be promoted as lancers (i.e. Cavalry for Human, Dwarves, …).
      City buffs for T1 defenders.
      I remember how T1 units had a chance when defending a city with enchanted walls, back in AoW 2. At worst, you had a chance to debuff or disable an attacker, and the T1 unit could even survive.
      Goal: could grant bonuses to low level units, making them quite worthy at defending a city, even against an end-game independant roaming stack, or rather making high-tier units a waste in such a task.
      Modality: either an innate ability, an Avatar research, or an upgrade coming along with the racial defence building.
      Effects: all or some of the following:
      – “Volunteer” when garrisonned (working also for watchtowers): they cost less so that you may spam them more (a well defended metropolis could have a full stack of T1 units as a garrison, not counting other units). We could say that T1 units are like armed citizen, that they have the most incentives to defend their home.
      – “Defender’s Faith” ability and bonus when on top of walls (on top of the current range bonus): yet another +1 range (only for missiles, not special abilities?), +1 DEF/+1 ATT melee when fighting on the wall, Resistance to projectiles, +1 RES, because they are trained in using the fortification to their advantage. Perhaps, these bonuses would be selective: archers would get the range bonus, swordsmen would get the Resistance bonuses, pikemen would get the melee bonus. Eventually, a small movement bonus, just to make them faster to reach combat positions on the wall, as compared to T2/T3 28 MP units.
      – Units with Urban dissimulation (Night Watch, Rogue’s Irregulars) could have an added ability to retreat while defending a city, because they could merge with the population and escape the arrest when city is taken (or that suburb, if not the decisive battle) is taken. This would make a several stacks city defence more resilient. Technically, retreated units would appear after the battle (either won or lost) in another city hex (if any is free).
Viewing 21 posts - 151 through 171 (of 171 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.