Production Resources: Production Queuing Strategy

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Production Resources: Production Queuing Strategy

This topic contains 49 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by  NuMetal 5 years, 2 months ago.

Viewing 20 posts - 31 through 50 (of 50 total)
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  • #96063

    Taykor
    Member

    +1 to the idea of moving a group/cluster of armies together simultaneously.

    It would be nice, but it is almost impossible to implement in a consistent way. The first problem is possible lack of suitable hex close to the first stack and impossibility to find path with exactly the same moving cost in general. The second one is probable difference in moving speeds between different stacks.

    #96074

    Mezmorki
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Mezmorki wrote:</div>
    +1 to the idea of moving a group/cluster of armies together simultaneously.

    It would be nice, but it is almost impossible to implement in a consistent way. The first problem is possible lack of suitable hex close to the first stack and impossibility to find path with exactly the same moving cost in general. The second one is probable difference in moving speeds between different stacks.

    Well, I think it could be handled. All you do is that you shift select multiple armies (say you have a group of 4 stacks) and as you move the mouse around hexes where the stack can move turn green or red depending on whether the armies can get there. You just find a spot where all the hexes are green and click move.

    It won’t be perfect, and when crossing bridges or going through mountain passes you’ll have to manually move things, but for basic bulk moves across relatively open ground where keeping your forces together is more important than maximizing move distances I think it could work well.

    #96083

    SikBok
    Keymaster

    Unfortunately Taykor is right.
    The things I mentioned are some of the things that make this feature non-trivial to add.

    Upon first glance these are issues we can resolve, but it’ll take some time.

    #96091

    Mezmorki
    Member

    I didn’t mean to imply that it would be easy/trivial to do. I recognize this would be entirely new code elements to introduce and it will take time/thought to do. But I didn’t think it was something that’s “impossible” to do either 🙂

    Cheers,

    #96099

    allowing armies to do reinforce moves is, IMO, the only practical way to deal with ‘split stacking’.

    if implemented in depth it could also allow for more skills, like Warlords or Dreadnoughts (march to the sound of the guns ;p) getting a cheap hero skill that gives their stack +12 move for purposes of reinforcing.

    EDGE CASE NOTE RE SPLIT STACKING

    let’s say you have a setup like this, 3 hexes in a line.

    (ARMY) (ARMY IN FORT) (WATCHTOWER)

    if you attack either army, you would end up in a fort battle with 2 stacks on the defense. HOWEVER if you attack the empty Watchtower, you end up in a fort battle with only one stack defending because forts ‘defend’ nearby structures.

    #96108

    Mezmorki
    Member

    Let’s get into more detail on the reinforce move idea for discussion… How might it work?

    Say I move an army into one of your armies to attack. Those two armies become “locked.” How then do the reinforcements get added? Is it a free-for-all to rush-click in reinforcements, or is it more structured? I’m guessing we want it more structured …

    So then what? Is it a “you go, I go” thing. Defender gets to first add in a reinforcing army and then the attacker gets a chance to add one? And back and forth until no more armies can be added? Is this done using the battle window to assign armies to slots that are in range, or is actually moving the forces on the strategic map as you normally would? What’s to prevent people from moving a fast army to reinforce a rearward hex making it harder or impossible for an opponent to reinforce around your reinforcements into an open hex?

    Also, with a reinforcement approach, assuming both players have 4+ armies within reinforcement range, whoever the system has reinforce first (defender? Attacker?) can always get 4 armies in play vs. the other players 3. Do you add in a system to make it variable who goes first? Or is it based on MP of the initially engaged forces (an army of fast cavalry gets to reinforce first, allowing them to field 4 armies) – you might need something like that to allow attackers to reliably field 4 armies when sieging (otherwise it becomes really hard to siege if at a numbers disadvantage, other factors being equal).

    How do you give a perk or ability to concealed armies or those striking from outside of vision range so they preserve their strategic value? Ambushes perhaps don’t allow reinforcement at all, and “ambushes” are always just 1 army vs 1 army? Or attacker can bring in all their ambushing armies and defender gets to use any reinforcements that happen to already be adjacent to their ambushed army?

    This is just kicking scenarios/ideas around. I think there might be some ideas worth exploring, but it adds another layer of complexity onto army management I feel, when the desire is really just to make it so that armies that one intends to move + engage together as a stack is able to do so without all sorts of micromanagement silliness.

    #96178

    Garresh
    Member

    Unfortunately Taykor is right.<br>
    The things I mentioned are some of the things that make this feature non-trivial to add.

    Upon first glance these are issues we can resolve, but it’ll take some time.

    Even if implemented through shift clicking in 3-5 seperate individual move orders to execute in order? I posted an idea a bit earlier in this thread which is, like you said non-trivial to add, but removes all the need for automating or calculating move costs to find an “efficient” way to implement movement. I understand that coming up with an algorithm to calculate all possible moves and placement is a coding nightmare, but an algorithm to just queue up 3 move orders to execute when you double click? That is comparatively much easier to implement, and has no requirement for any calculations other than the ones already done when you order a stack to move individually, since stacks can already move through each other as is.

    #96180

    Reefpirate
    Member

    @garresh: One problem I can think of with the shift-click queuing that you’re talking about is that it gives a large advantage to whoever lands the first shift-click-move.

    If you can queue up 3 or 4 armies to all move at once and attack someone, there’s no time for a response at all… Which is different from how it is now, where as the guy starts to move his armies in for an attack the defender can also start to move his units around in response until both of them settle down somewhere for a fight, or the defender decides to just pull his units out of the area.

    I would see a similar problem with the group move situation… It still favors the first person to move his group where he wants it. In a weird way, the current situation favors defenders more because people are generally scared to split their armies and so slowly creep towards their targets, often wasting MP in the process.

    #96182

    @ Doom, it actually still means fun/bright/breezy/lighthearted in modern proper English, but that word, with those meanings, got appropriated by the homosexual community.

    I know if I was homosexual I’d rather be called gay than fag (oddly enough, meaning cigarette in British/Australian English, or a piece of wood, or some food.

    or queer (which means strange, bizarre)

    or crooked (implying deviance in this case)/abnormal etc.

    Anyway, getting back on topic, I seem to vaguely recall that you could move multiple stacks at the same time in AoW1, but that the pathfinding was…not the best.

    #96187

    Garresh
    Member

    @garresh: One problem I can think of with the shift-click queuing that you’re talking about is that it gives a large advantage to whoever lands the first shift-click-move.

    If you can queue up 3 or 4 armies to all move at once and attack someone, there’s no time for a response at all… Which is different from how it is now, where as the guy starts to move his armies in for an attack the defender can also start to move his units around in response until both of them settle down somewhere for a fight, or the defender decides to just pull his units out of the area.

    I would see a similar problem with the group move situation… It still favors the first person to move his group where he wants it. In a weird way, the current situation favors defenders more because people are generally scared to split their armies and so slowly creep towards their targets, often wasting MP in the process.

    Only if you end turn in a bad position, in which case you got it coming.

    #96194

    scfs123
    Member

    For one example i had happen in the last game that made me say “I’m not playing MP anymore until this shits fixed”

    Hex setup guy has 2 armies side by side.
    I have 4 armies.

    To surround him with my 4vs2 ment i had to form 4 units around his one unit then iniate.

    So of course i move into position, he attacks me first and gets 2v2 armies.

    There was literally absolutely nothing i could do to bring my forces to bear outside of relying on him to be a gentleman.

    My suggested fixes for this would be the following.
    1 – Team Classic Turns. For set team games let teams move together on the same turn. (Not a fix to the issue overall, but would allow us to have big MP games without the issue being present.)

    2 – As suggested in other threads on the matter, allowing a window of time for the defender to move troops into position to assist.
    There was some pushback that “You could bait attacks and then reinforce and destroy them!”, honestly i’d far rather deal with that problem then deal with the current problem.

    3 – Classic Turns letting everyone do everything outside of troop movements during others turns. Have start of a new day be for everyone at same time so everyone gets their resources at same time, and then they can plot their movements while only one person is handling movements, not viable for the bigger games, but would at least help with 2-4P games.

    4 – Pause game function that could pause the game for a very short duration period (Maybe make it only available after the first minute of a turn?) let people plot moves during it, and when unpaused all those moves happen without anything else happening until they have moved. Issue being using it at start of turn to catch someone with a “move at end of turn move at start of next turn” shenanigans. Be irritating to implement.

    5 – Allow a retreat option for defenders when they have an attack put on them, that reduces their MP to 0, and make the attacking army unable to attack for a few seconds?
    Obviously would have to be on the main map retreat, not a tactical one, and unable to do it twice in a turn. (I think you’d see my train of thought with it. You stack split someone, they hit retreat, few second attack delay for them to strike back…)

    That is all i got, thanks for paying attention to this issue, it really ruins MP play for some of us.

    #96253

    D00m
    Member

    @bloodybattlebrain

    Thank you for the short yet informative lesson in the peculiarities of the English language 🙂 I didn’t know the word “gay” was still used with this meaning. Also, I always call cigarettes fags, I love the sound of this word… used in this context. Had no idea it could also mean food or a piece of wood, really educational for me form you, Sir. 🙂

    #96255

    D00m
    Member

    There was literally absolutely nothing i could do to bring my forces to bear outside of relying on him to be a gentleman.

    My suggested fixes for this would be the following.<br>
    1 – Team Classic Turns. For set team games let teams move together on the same turn. (Not a fix to the issue overall, but would allow us to have big MP games without the issue being present.)

    2 – As suggested in other threads on the matter, allowing a window of time for the defender to move troops into position to assist.<br>
    There was some pushback that “You could bait attacks and then reinforce and destroy them!”, honestly i’d far rather deal with that problem then deal with the current problem.

    5 – Allow a retreat option for defenders when they have an attack put on them, that reduces their MP to 0, and make the attacking army unable to attack for a few seconds?<br>
    Obviously would have to be on the main map retreat, not a tactical one, and unable to do it twice in a turn. (I think you’d see my train of thought with it. You stack split someone, they hit retreat, few second attack delay for them to strike back…)

    I’m afraid in games such as AoW III, you’ll always need to rely on some gentleman’s agreements.

    1. Yes to that, made a thread about it already and people really liked the idea. Making such mode were teams play classic turns, while players within teams play simultaneous would also have other advantages. I already asked of it in the “Official Gameplay Suggestions” topic. Here’s the thread I made:
    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/classic-mode-for-multiplayer-team-games/

    2. I do like that in a way, but surprise attacks, harassment and ambushes would loose in value or even become useless in some cases.

    5. Another interesting idea, but the problem of weakening the value of harassment and ambushes remains.

    Although it would be great to solve this problem imo we might just need to continue relying on gentleman’s agreements. You need them for other things as well, so why not stick to playing with gentleman 🙂

    #96279

    Bouh
    Member

    I already said it in another topic, but most solution to prevent split stacking with hard coded rules will be exploited in an unintended and possibly worse way than split stacking is currently.

    The best rule is the 10-15s rules IMO as it is simple enough and not more exploitable than the start or end of a turn.

    The idea of Garresh is good one too I think, and the most sensible, but require the 15s rule to not be subject to exploits (you would otherwise have stack sniping brought to a higher level).

    #96300

    Garresh
    Member

    @bouh
    I’m a rogue player. How do you know that advanced stack sniping wasn’t my plan all along? 😉

    #97775

    SikBok
    Keymaster

    A bit of a necro, but …

    Just added ‘Game enforced 15s rule’ and ‘Team Classic Turns’ to my feature request list.

    Don’t like the ‘give defender a chance to move units’ option. As noted, ambushes, etc become impossible. There are also some technical issues.

    Much prefer adding a fancy way to move units in groups, so you can move fast and have your units move without the split army vulnerability.
    You can still mess up and be punished for it, but imho that is how it should be. The group move should prevent the move system from being an issue.

    #97778

    Mezmorki
    Member

    Just added ‘Game enforced 15s rule’ and ‘Team Classic Turns’ to my feature request list.

    Can the 15s timer be a variable length? I’d love to see options for 15s, 30s, 45s, and 60s for example. It will make for a different pacing and experience, but I think some variability would let people find their optimums (or a compromise between different player’s preferences).

    Much prefer adding a fancy way to move units in groups, so you can move fast and have your units move without the split army vulnerability.
    You can still mess up and be punished for it, but imho that is how it should be. The group move should prevent the move system from being an issue.

    So long term you are planning to look into a group move solution too?

    #97796

    SikBok
    Keymaster

    Can the 15s timer be a variable length?

    I’ve got ‘slider’ somewhere in that feature request : )>
    Iirc that was mentioned somewhere in this topic.

    So long term you are planning to look into a group move solution too?

    Yes, I’ll be looking into a group move instead of the ‘give defender a chance to move units’.

    #97970

    D00m
    Member

    @sikbok
    Thanks a lot.

    #98105

    NuMetal
    Member

    Just added ‘Game enforced 15s rule’ and ‘Team Classic Turns’ to my feature request list.

    Thank you so much!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂

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