Research book

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Research book

This topic contains 46 replies, has 21 voices, and was last updated by  TheInternetJanitor 4 years, 5 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 47 total)
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  • #97458

    reiv
    Member

    Hello folks!
    Played this game for a while, enjoyed it a lot! Huge thx to dev team for supporting this game on great level!
    But one thing still bugs me – randomness of research book. Yes it is possible to throw out, and get in some elements in, to players strategy depending on available researches @ book but, I’d prefer to play it for sure. I’m totally understand that change like this, could have some impact on the balance, and I’ll be fine if some researches will go up in tier or have an prerequisite research to be available for balance sakes. Is it possible, and what you guys thinking about it?

    #97470

    vota dc
    Member

    I hate randomness of research.

    #97474

    vyolin
    Member

    An option for deterministic research would be nice, all things considered. Random research has been a staple of the series, though, even if there has been a Shadow Magic mod making the research deterministic for single-sphere wizards.

    #97511

    KEa
    Member

    I hate randomness of research.

    I love randomness of research !
    And i love randomness level Up system for heroes in AOW2:SM … And hate this system in AOW3/1

    #97513

    Bob5
    Member

    I wouldn’t mind less randomness in research. It is currently so random that you can’t rely at all on your sphere spells or research. If I take fire adept because I want to spend my mana on hell hounds, so I can strengthen my forces with additional units by spending mana, I don’t want those hell hounds to appear on turn 80. If I go with air adept to get a flying scout as a warlord I don’t want to start scouting in turn 70.

    #97516

    KEa
    Member

    I don’t want those hell hounds to appear on turn 80.

    but – i wont… Random research – give game more replayable ability. Remove this, and your gameplay be a match static and predictable.

    #97536

    Gyor
    Member

    I’m in the I’m not a big fan of the Randomness of the randomness of previous editions of the game, AOW3 has an acceptable balance. Still perhaps for those a miss it, an advanced game option choice for more randomness.

    #97599

    D00m
    Member

    Not a big fan of randomness either. Atm you also take it into account when choosing specializations as to minimize/maximize the number of skills of particular type (combat/strategic/empire) and I’m not sure I like that. You can get screwed over or get very lucky and I’m all for the game being more balanced and less random, but I know many people would disagree with such notion.

    #97611

    Ricminator
    Member

    Difficult question, it’s true I’m not overly fond of the too random randomness. My xp so far is that spells you need like dispel, disjunct, summon zephyr bird and so sometimes won’t show up like turn 80 or more. I had this a couple of times now, but other times it did work out and it added to the fun. But a solution is tricky.

    You could think of splitting the spells in two pools. One pool containing all the level 1-3 spells and one the level 4-7. And then make sure that you first have to research all the level 1-3 spells before you can research the high tier spells. That way the early level spells will show up early game. Especially handy for the irregular empire upgrade spells or summon spells. Those are really needed early game and not around turn 40.

    Or you could think of an level-unlockable spellbook. That way you start with only one slot in your researchbook for a combat spell, one for an empire upgrade and one for an global castable spell. You can choose whichone you want to research but you have to level up your hero before you can research more.

    Eitherway I’m not sure what will work and if a rework is even necessary, maybe my first option to ensure access to the lowlevel spells.

    #97635

    D00m
    Member

    @ricminator
    I think it might already be the case that you’re more likely to have lower tier spells available for research before the higher tier ones, it certainly seems to be that way from my experience.

    #97639

    Erwin
    Member

    Hey guys,

    I believe the reason behind the randomness is that we were afraid people would start following specific paths as they are the most efficient making the rest obsolete. We rather prefer to avoid having this meta forming as Age of Wonders has always been a game with random factors and it’s that part a lot of people enjoy about the game.

    You can slightly limit the starting randomness, where some start with a summoning skill while the other doesn’t, by starting the game selecting no starting skills at all so everybody starts at ground zero.

    #97698

    I like the randomness :).

    #97774

    Mezmorki
    Member

    Not a big fan of randomness either. Atm you also take it into account when choosing specializations as to minimize/maximize the number of skills of particular type (combat/strategic/empire) and I’m not sure I like that. You can get screwed over or get very lucky and I’m all for the game being more balanced and less random, but I know many people would disagree with such notion.

    +1

    I think an OPTION for a less random (or non-random purely deterministic) research book would be great. I appreciate that some people like the randomness, but in terms of trying to build and execute a specific strategy it can make it really challenging.

    The specializations in particular seem to be the most problematic, as specializations are often taken to provide very specific spells to reinforce a weak part of a race/class combo or to reinforce a particular strategy, and when those abilities aren’t present or randomly show up much later, it can be a major blow to a player’s competitiveness. Warlords taking air adept SPECIFICALLY to get scouts and then not being able to get scouts early on is a great example.

    So here’s an idea (with example) of a more fixed approach. This uses Rogue class with Fire Adept and Water Adept/Mastery.

    Slot 1 = Generic empire upgrades (as is)
    – basic seafaring (1)
    – adv. seafaring (3)
    – adv. logistics (5)

    Slot 2 = Class casting point track (as is)
    – level I through VII

    Slot 3 = Class unit track (as is)
    – Scoundrels (1)
    – Bards (2)
    – Assassins (3)
    – Succubus (4)
    – Shadow Stalker (5)

    Slot 4 = Class “Empire Upgrades” (other than unit unlocks/summons)
    – Courtesan Ambassadors (1)
    – Irregular Training (2)
    – Trained Killers (2)
    – Cruel Backstab (3)
    – Urban Cover (3)

    Slot 5 + 6 = Class STRATEGIC
    – Poison Mastery (1)
    – Iron Grip (2)
    – Treasure Raiding (2)
    – Corpse Looting (3)
    – Incite Revolt (3)
    – Guild of Shadow Thieves (4)
    – Plague of Brigands (4)
    – Night Wish (5)
    – Network of Scrying Eyes (5)
    – Age of Deception (7)

    Slot 6 = Class Strategic Spells
    – (linked with slot 5)

    Slot 7 + 8 = Class Combat Spells
    – Rain of Poison Blades (1)
    – Quick Dash (1)
    – Panic Attack (2)
    – Blind (2)
    – Moving Target (3)
    – Cunning Escape (3)
    – Sadism (4)
    – Shadow Form (4)
    – Smoke Screen (5)
    – Mass Battlefield Panic (6)

    Slot 8 = Class Combat Spells
    – (linked with slot 7)

    Slot 9 = Generic Instants/Spells
    – Dispel (1)
    – Disjunction (2)
    – Terraformer (2)
    – Banish (4)
    – Resurrect Hero (4)

    Slot 10 = Specialization 1 (e.g. Fire Adept)
    – Fireball (1)
    – Skin of Oil (2)
    – Summon Hell Hound (3)
    – Domain of the Sun (3)

    *** when you take a “mastery” level, it makes TWO slots dedicated to the sphere, one with “Combat” spells and the other with “Strategic” spells (see example below)

    Slot 11 = Specialization 2 Combat spells (e.g. Water Adept + Master)
    – Vengeful Frost (1)
    – Rot (2)
    – Drench the Land (4)
    – Healing Showers (4)
    – Great Hail (5)

    Slot 12 = Specialization 3 Strategic spells (e.g. Water Adept + Master)
    – Summon Baby Kraken (3)
    – Freeze Water (3)
    – Summon Frost Elemental (6)

    Two important things about implementing something like this:

    ONE – For balance whether a given tier level skill becomes available COULD be linked to whether you had the appropriate class improvement. So, in order to get “Assassins” (tier 3 skill), you would at least need to have researched “Cloak and Dagger III.” This would apply to all skills. So in the example, I couldn’t research Summon Frost Elementals (tier 6) until I researched Cloak and Dagger VI – this would prevent people from leaping way up the spell tree in areas with a lower number of spells in the slot.

    TWO – Certain slots are linked (e.g. class combat spells occupy two slows and class strategic spells occupy two slows). In other cases, slots are linked such that when the default sequence of spells runs out, it should start drawing the next available spell from a related grouping of spells, first from the “sphere” (generic, class, or specialization) and then by type (strategic or combat). For example, if I finish researching advanced logistics, it should populate with the next spell from the “Generic” sphere.

    THREE – There will still be a little bit randomness in that when a slot opens up, if there are two or more appropriate spells for the slot that have the same tier level, the system would need to decide randomly which goes first – or a fixed list could implemented and hardcoded in (or based on research cost?)

    Thoughts on this? I’d love to see something like this implemented to try it out.

    #97795

    reiv
    Member

    Hey guys,

    I believe the reason behind the randomness is that we were afraid people would start following specific paths as they are the most efficient making the rest obsolete. We rather prefer to avoid having this meta forming as Age of Wonders has always been a game with random factors and it’s that part a lot of people enjoy about the game.

    You can slightly limit the starting randomness, where some start with a summoning skill while the other doesn’t, by starting the game selecting no starting skills at all so everybody starts at ground zero.

    Fair enough, but still, with the current state of the research book we cant be sure to have, at last random spell of the spheres we choose for our leaders. Is it possible to create dedicated slots just for spheres? like if i choose adept of air, master of fire, I’ll have 2 slots fire, 1 slot air spells for research guaranteed? ofc those sphere spells should stay random, and when learned, provide another spell of the same sphere. Could we work it out this way?

    The variant from the guy above with full research book slot separation is even better for me, but I’ll be happy with just sphere slot dedication too.

    #97804

    smeagolheart
    Member

    It’s not 100% random. If you have fire mastery and you pick a fire spell, after you research that fire spell you get another fire spell. If you select an avatar class spell, after you research it you will get another avatar spell. Same for class research, if you select a sorceror thing you will get another one once you do the research on the first one.

    #97806

    vyolin
    Member

    but – i wont… Random research – give game more replayable ability.

    Make it too random and replayability goes through the roof, though. Starting over time and again because the gods of random dicked you over once again becomes old pretty fast.
    Trying out different branches on a static research tree on the other adds a much more meaningful kind of incentive to start over.
    That said, an option for deterministic research would be the absolute maximum change I could get behind with good conscience.

    #97829

    Mezmorki
    Member

    Fair enough, but still, with the current state of the research book we cant be sure to have, at last random spell of the spheres we choose for our leaders. Is it possible to create dedicated slots just for spheres? like if i choose adept of air, master of fire, I’ll have 2 slots fire, 1 slot air spells for research guaranteed? ofc those sphere spells should stay random, and when learned, provide another spell of the same sphere. Could we work it out this way?

    That’s more or less what the approach is I outlined above – I’d like to see this idea at the very least.

    #97846

    grumpysmurf
    Member

    It would be nice if it were easier to recognize where each spell belongs to – and maybe a preview what that spell unlocks on successful research.

    I did not know till a few weeks that the spells are grouped – I was trying to research a spell and used combat spells get a global spell unlock.

    The randomness has its advantages – so you need to adjust to the gameplay – it can hinder the game if you do not get disjunct.

    #97884

    reiv
    Member

    It’s not 100% random. If you have fire mastery and you pick a fire spell, after you research that fire spell you get another fire spell. If you select an avatar class spell, after you research it you will get another avatar spell. Same for class research, if you select a sorceror thing you will get another one once you do the research on the first one.

    Nope, doesn’t work for spheres, just for embark\class units\caster points, expansion\exprotation,
    others can give you absolutely different spell after you research it, and i had some starting RBook with none fire spells to research, when my leader is fire master…

    #97893

    Mezmorki
    Member

    Nope, doesn’t work for spheres, just for embark\class units\caster points, expansion\exprotation,
    others can give you absolutely different spell after you research it, and i had some starting RBook with none fire spells to research, when my leader is fire master…

    This has been my experience as well.

    #97966

    smeagolheart
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>reiv wrote:</div>
    Nope, doesn’t work for spheres, just for embark\class units\caster points, expansion\exprotation,<br>
    others can give you absolutely different spell after you research it, and i had some starting RBook with none fire spells to research, when my leader is fire master…

    This has been my experience as well.

    So it’s “embark\class units\caster points, expansion\exprotation” or a spell sphere spell. Take the spell sphere and you’ll get fire eventually. If you have fire/water/creation/ it might take longer than if you focused on only fire.

    #98027

    SetaX
    Member

    I dont like randomness either,especially on this level. In my last game against Lord AI (Im still learning the game,different combos,builds) I took fire and air adept for my orc Dreadnought to have a nice moral boost for my cities on arctic and volcanic terrain with the Domain of…. spells. well,as you can imagine they turned up at around turn 80 and I’ve finished the game at turn 105 so it was quite useless then.
    I like Mezmorki’s system (kinda Civ like) where you have the option to choose which branch of your tech tree you want to research and when. In my opinion it wont take anything away from the replayability either because you will always have the option to restart a game and try a different technological research path than you’ve done before.
    On the other hand I do respect those who prefer the current random system so the best way would be to make the whole thing optional at game start. (not to mention that would be the best for the game’s replayability as well)

    • This reply was modified 1 year ago by  President.
    #98029

    Reefpirate
    Member

    I like the random research.

    It’s a love/hate kind of thing, but generally if you know what you’re looking for you can get it early. Do you really want Hellhounds? Then research sphere global spells and it’ll show up earlier. Like, way before turn 80.

    EDIT: I do think the mechanics of getting the research you want could be a little clearer for new players. I’m not sure if everyone knows how to get what you want. Maybe put it in the tutorial, or somewhere in the Tome of Wonders?

    #98071

    reiv
    Member

    I like the random research.

    It’s a love/hate kind of thing, but generally if you know what you’re looking for you can get it early. Do you really want Hellhounds? Then research sphere global spells and it’ll show up earlier. Like, way before turn 80.

    EDIT: I do think the mechanics of getting the research you want could be a little clearer for new players. I’m not sure if everyone knows how to get what you want. Maybe put it in the tutorial, or somewhere in the Tome of Wonders?

    It’s not really about HH(fire)\Zbird(air) etc, it’s just about investing in research in specific direction. It’s okay, if there will be no HH from the start of the game, but having special slot for spheres will allow to actually use what you choose for your leader, if you want to push for sphere spells instead of class ones. Right now, in most of my games, spheres does zero impact on my strategy and it’s mostly class spells, the game feels like – “remove elemental spheres and i barely notice it”, and i want it changed. Having 1 slot dedicated for each sphere you choose (random spell of the sphere) and 2nd slot for sphere mastery wont cause problems in balance and RNG factor of the game imo.

    #98078

    D00m
    Member

    […] maybe a preview what that spell unlocks on successful research.

    I very much like the idea. The research would still be random, but at least you’d know whether you’ll be able to research the skill you really want once you get something else out of the way.

    #98079

    D00m
    Member

    It’s a love/hate kind of thing, but generally if you know what you’re looking for you can get it early.

    I disagree, you often can’t. And if you had to research something irrelevant just to give yourself a shot for that skill you really want, you just misallocated a lot of knowledge points. You can maximize your chances, but you still can, and often will, get disappointing results.

    #98080

    NuMetal
    Member

    I also love the randomness in research! 🙂

    The devs have already made it only semi random so that you can influence what you get next and that should be enough of a compromise.

    Also afaik Hell Hound in turn 80 is bullshit. For your fire adept there is only one slot in the spell book and researching the one fire spell shown in the spellbook will give you another fire spell. Since the fire adept only has five spells (or four?), it should not take long to get hell hound if you really want to.

    #98083

    D00m
    Member

    @NuMeatl

    Turn 80 sounds a bit off, but it’s not just Fire Adept spells you might need to get out of the way. It’s the same slot as all other specialization Strategic spells.

    #98084

    NuMetal
    Member

    huh, are you sure?
    For some reason I was convinced that all specializations had their own slot in the spellbook…

    EDIT: don’t answer that question, I believe you 😉

    • This reply was modified 1 year ago by  President.
    #98118

    D00m
    Member

    Ok, thanks, but I’ll ask a friend of mine exactly how the research book works. He knows the mechanics very well and I could use a reminder myself.

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