Shadow Realm – Brainstorm

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This topic contains 908 replies, has 33 voices, and was last updated by  Hiliadan 3 hours, 9 minutes ago.

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  • #257171

    Hiliadan
    Member

    I settled for Dark Gift alone for the Hollow Grove. The “Inflict Curse” part is actually quite nice and nasty already, especially with Nightshade Fairies!
    I feel like giving Entangling Strike AND Shadow Step goes too far. Entangling Strike is very powerful in itself, so I’d give Entangling Strike only. At the same time, it gives these 2 abilities only to Support, so might be acceptable. In any case, I put a relatively high cost for the MCU: 100 gold and 100 mana, equivalent to Arcane Catalyst or Blood Altar but lower than Altar of Bound Souls.
    I used the Dungeon as a template for the defenders and rewards of the Hollow Grove, except that I limited the reward to 1 unit instead of 2. So in general, you should get for instance 1 Nightshade Fairy (110 gold + 40 mana = value of (110+40*2)*0.9=171) and 57 gold ((400-171)*0.25).
    The weird thing is that the defenders will be affected by Shadow Sickness. So maybe we should add Shadow Weed Decoction as a battle enchantment too?
    Please check out the defenders and the unit that can be given as a reward.
    http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Hiliadan/Hollow_Grove

    Next I’m probably going to check the details of the 3 sites from Decodence, as I currently don’t know much about them.

    @housepet: what’s your Dropbox’s account? I’ll share the expansion’s folder with you, then we need to update the “Item, Forge, Hero” spreadsheet by SiaFu from here http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/spreadsheet-items-forge-and-heroes-el-1-5 to have a full picture of income in the base game, and compare it to the Shadow Realm.
    In addition to income balance, we also need to consider the types of units who receive bonus from MCU. Right now, we have only 1 Support-boosting MCU, and I’m not sure which MCU we lose from the surface. That may have big consequences as some classes or races may rely on MCU (e.g. Rogue and Trading Posts’ Mercenary Camps).

    Check out the Wiki for a lot of very good data about AoW3!
    What you really need to improve your AoW3 experience: the balance mod and its presentation video
    Last but not least, check out the Battlefield.com/AoW3 the community website for AoW3

    #257183

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Some brainstorming for the Beacon of Light
    Battle enchantment could be either Blind striking one random enemy unit every turn or Blessing of Health (has some big light effects too, in relationship with the “Light” of the Beacon + such a Beacon surely has some powerful boosting effects, either magical or though morale, on the units). Speaking of morale boost, maybe Bolster?
    We also have the same issue as the Hollow Grove (and probably many other sites): some units will suffer from Shadow Sickness, so should we also add Shadow Weed Decoction as a 2nd battle enchantment?
    For the defenders, I think it’s interesting to have several sets with nice interactions. It’s an Epic site so we do not NEED a T4. Might be good to keep it with T3, T2 and T1 but nice interactions between them, making them stronger.
    For instance, some preliminary ideas as my time is limited just now:
    – Goblin Blight Doctor, Goblin Swarm Darter, Blight Elemental, Goblin Untouchable, Goblin Beetle Rider, Goblin Butcher, Orc Priest
    – Draconian Elder, Draconian Flyer, Draconian Charger, Fire Elemental
    – Frostling Ice Queen, Frostling Royal Guard, Frostling White Witch

    Check out the Wiki for a lot of very good data about AoW3!
    What you really need to improve your AoW3 experience: the balance mod and its presentation video
    Last but not least, check out the Battlefield.com/AoW3 the community website for AoW3

    #257235

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Regarding the Dark Elf Dwelling, @gloweye: did you manage to link the models from the .clb I provided with the Dark Elves?
    If not, then I suggest Dr_K or Bob start integrating the Dark Elf into the main mod this week anyway. Adding the models is not really the most complicated stuff and does not need to be copied from the Dark Elf mod, it can be done directly. We already have the editable .acp to see what changes were made, it’s here: \Dropbox\AoW3-Shadow-Realm-expansion\models\DarkElf\DELF_Working Executioner – Complete mod (should be moved to the mod folder, by the way)

    Regarding the RMG, I am worried you won’t have time for it @gloweye, so I would strongly suggest that Dr_K or Bob learns about it and work on it. I would be surprised if it was really different from other modding stuff, except that you probably need more trials and errors. This is a core part of the mod. So what are our real options to make it progress? I feel like you’re too busy @gloweye, so we need to look for other options.

    Check out the Wiki for a lot of very good data about AoW3!
    What you really need to improve your AoW3 experience: the balance mod and its presentation video
    Last but not least, check out the Battlefield.com/AoW3 the community website for AoW3

    #257248

    HousePet
    Member

    Dropbox me on simonandrecurtis @ gmail . com
    Was away on a ski trip and now I want to put Arctic terrain in the Shadow Realm. XD

    – SE Prophet Military RG
    I think boosting the Invoke Darkness is a little better, as I’m a little adverse to Shock everything.

    – SE Deity Military RG
    I like option 2, with gives Ground Magic and Exploit Shadows.

    Shadow Sickness:
    Go with the -1/-1/-1 and disliked climate for the moment. This will need some play testing to get a real idea of the balance.

    #257264

    Dr_K
    Member

    So I’ve added most of the structures into the mod. Obviously all of the defenders, rewards and other details need to be worked out, but the framework for those and some other bells and whistles now exist. And theoretically, they should be able to be hooked up to the rmg and populate the map since there are any load errors for the mod (barring any expected errors during map generation).

    A Crystal Mine and Mithril Mine are already included with decodence. We can balance them as need be and use lordoflinks model for something else if we want. Crystal mine image attached.

    I did not add any MCUs at this point. Also, I just realized that I forgot to do the Heart of Shadows.

    A few notes/questions on structures:

    If you want city properties to be added to structures (like domain range), they need to be recreated as “Terrain Painting” type instead of “Treasure Site” type as far as I know. Kind of a pain.

    I haven’t tested it yet, but the tactical combat map is listed in two locations: the structure itself and the adventure set. Does anyone know if one overrides the other, or they need to match?

    Another untested function: We might be able to create structures with more difficulty with mixing and matching defenders/inhabitants/roamers. We can probably have defenders that exist on the strategic map as well as inhabitant units, and it could possibly spawn units itself if we want.

    Re: RMG

    Not sure how much time I will have to devote to diving into the RMG. I’ll work on the mod as I have time, but with moving and travelling for work, I will likely have few long periods of time to devote to figuring out everything I need to with the RMG in the next few weeks. If I have time before things get really busy, I’ll try to take a look at the Decodence SR RMG mod.

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    #257269

    Gloweye
    Member

    Regarding the RMG, I am worried you won’t have time for it @gloweye, so I would strongly suggest that Dr_K or Bob learns about it and work on it. I would be surprised if it was really different from other modding stuff, except that you probably need more trials and errors. This is a core part of the mod. So what are our real options to make it progress? I feel like you’re too busy @gloweye, so we need to look for other options.

    Well, prepare to be surprised. It’s nothing like the rest.

    It’s not even remotely as clearly described. Normally there’s an explanation, for the RMG not.

    I should be almost there, tho. Working on how to spawn continents. The cluster doesn’t seem to trigger, so that’s the current thing. Once that works, it’ll be ready almost instantly, save for the really easy part of adding a few structures.

    #257308

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Perhaps it could be a gemstone mine instead?

    Ok, I renamed it to Gemstone Mine in the Wikia, we’ll have to rename the file and the structure in the mod tool.

    Was thinking a Camp of Lost Souls, but thematically it would be similar to Beacon of Light and work like an Inn with Athlan units for hire.
    Demon Slaver: When in small numbers, Shadow Demons can be controlled by someone with enough magic and willpower. Some are now sold as slaves and work animals. +20 production and sells T1/2 Demon units.
    Transtemporal Pocket: Time is fickle in the Shadow Realm, as this group of Archons and Dark Elves from the Shadow Demon war found out… Sells Archon and Dark Elf units.
    Elemental Nexus: Lines of Elemental energies cross here, creating a safe haven for Elemental creatures. Sells t2/3 elementals and maybe generates some mana too.

    Ok, I’ll add these as new ideas.
    I’m a bit concerned by making Elementals or Shadow Demons available for hire. For Shadow Demons, I’m more concerned because I feel like we should keep them quite exclusive, as mainly independent units, that can be controlled only through Shadow Elf Shaman. Elementals because the Lesser ones can evolve so are very powerful and underpriced, and big ones are very very strong and should remain accessible only through Master specs, and some secret spells (in the balance mod, we removed the Earth Elemental from secret spells because it was too easy to get and too game changing).
    I feel like it would make more sense to have 1 recruit site for Athla units and 1 for Shadow Realm units. However, I’m a bit confused by the name of “Camp of Lost Souls”: it immediately makes one thinks about the Necro’s Lost Souls. And for the Transtemporal Pocket, how can time explain units from Athla appearing there?

    Ok, points that were (or are) still under discussion:

    SE Prophet Military RG

    – SE Prophet Military RG
    I think boosting the Invoke Darkness is a little better, as I’m a little adverse to Shock everything.

    My gut is saying to boost Invoke Darkness, but I don’t have a strong objection to the alternative. There is precedent for similar bonuses from high-end research and RG options. I’d probably be inclined to make it frost or a mix of frost and shock, though, rather than full shock.

    What do you mean Drax? Currently Invoke Darkness is 2 frost and 2 physical damage: http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Hiliadan/Invoke_Darkness So I am confused why you mention shock?

    So option 2/ favoured for now:
    1/ All Shadow Elf Support units ignore ranged penalties with their attacks AND Umbral Weavers gets a Short ranged 14 damage Shock Bolt.
    2/ All Shadow Elf Support units ignore ranged penalties with their attacks AND Umbral Weavers’ Invoke Darkness gets +2 frost and +2 physical damage

    SE Deity Military RG
    Still under discussion:
    1/ +1 def and +3 shock damage to all Shadow Elf units (favoured by Gloweye, Drax?)
    2/ gives Ground Magic and [+2 shock damage OR Exploit Shadows OR Inflict Shocking] to all Shadow Elf Archer, Infantry and Cavalry units (Exploit Shadows favoured by HousePet, Hiliadan)
    3/ gives Ground Magic and +2 shock damage to all the units produced in Shadow Elf cities and unlock the Summoner Chamber (25 gold, 25 mana) in Shadow Elf cities: units summoned in the domain of cities with the Summoner Chamber gets Ground Magic, +2 shock damage and +2 resistance

    SE Engineer
    I confirm + Ground Magic and +5 mana.

    – SE Infused
    Still need feedback, see http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/shadow-realm-brainstorm/page/29/#post-256613

    Forgotten Throne
    Didn’t get feedback from http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/shadow-realm-brainstorm/page/29/#post-256613
    So I think we can consider the main idea for it to be the one I described:
    A “Will Breaker” unit is summoned every round.
    Will Breaker (model similar to a Wisp):
    28 HP (on its first round, it appears and can’t do anything and gets to 21 HP, then it can play on its 2nd and 3rd round, and it dies on its 4th without being able to do anything, so it plays only 2 rounds)
    10 defense
    10 resistance
    28 MP
    60% in all resistance (including Physical)
    Unstable Mana Form (loses 7 HP every turn)
    Chaos: medium range, spirit strength 12 that makes the target unit converts the units for 2 turns and make it Berserk (so that it attacks its previous allies, i.e. your own units)
    Phase
    Strong Will Slayer
    Undead Slayer
    Turn Undead
    Inflict Break Body and Soul: medium range, 10 strength physical channel: 20% spirit weakness

    ==
    @housepet: I shared the Dropbox with you. Lack time to work on the sites today, maybe tomorrow or later. I’ll put an Excel file there, then I propose we complete it with the sites from EL and other sites that may be missing, and we add the rarity of sites, to get a full overview of the current situation.
    Then through 2 more columns, we add a way to filter on sites on Athla and those on the Shadow Realm, and we compare the situation in both cases.

    Check out the Wiki for a lot of very good data about AoW3!
    What you really need to improve your AoW3 experience: the balance mod and its presentation video
    Last but not least, check out the Battlefield.com/AoW3 the community website for AoW3

    #257309

    Hiliadan
    Member

    I did not add any MCUs at this point. Also, I just realized that I forgot to do the Heart of Shadows

    Ok great, thanks! 🙂
    So all these are there: Warband Campfire, Forgotten Throne, Shadow Gate, Beacon of Light, Hollow Grove, Gemstone Mine, Archon Fort, Heart of the Shadow, Forge of Dreams, Glass Furnace, Celestial Pool?
    So we still need to rename Gemstone Mine, add the MCU and Heart of the Shadow.

    Regarding Gemstone Mine (new name of Crystal Mine), yes I guess we can use the model from Charlatan and see where we can use the model from lordoflinks. A shame I had previously noted Charlatan had planned to do that model but didn’t do it, which apparently was an incorrect piece of information as he did do the model.

    We might be able to create structures with more difficulty with mixing and matching defenders/inhabitants/roamers.

    Ok so you mean they would need to be “cleared twice” so to speak: once for the defenders above the structure, and once for the “inhabitants” inside the structure? Something to keep in mind but I don’t feel like it really makes it more difficult or more interesting, at this stage.

    I should be almost there, tho. Working on how to spawn continents. The cluster doesn’t seem to trigger, so that’s the current thing. Once that works, it’ll be ready almost instantly, save for the really easy part of adding a few structures.

    Ok, that’s great news! So you probably already have a more advanced version than the one we used for the “live chat event” a few months ago? We can at least use this one for the alpha test next week. 🙂

    Check out the Wiki for a lot of very good data about AoW3!
    What you really need to improve your AoW3 experience: the balance mod and its presentation video
    Last but not least, check out the Battlefield.com/AoW3 the community website for AoW3

    #257318

    HousePet
    Member

    If the increased domain range from the Forgotten Throne is a pain, it could be moved to the MCU structure.

    Yeah I didn’t like the Camp of Lost Souls.
    Requiring the use of a Shadow Elf Shaman to get any Shadow Demon units seems super exclusive. Do we really want to restrict to evil Archdruids only?
    Good point about the Elementals. Bloody balance issues!
    The Transtemporal Pocket explains how you encounter a camp of troops from a time when a large amount of Athlan troops entered the Shadow Realm, either to fight Demons or other threats.

    Having a unique creature for the Forgotten Throne battle seems a bit weird, but that might not be a bad thing. However it does seem like a lot of work for one effect?

    I am Dropboxed. Will tackle the structures spreadsheet when I have time.

    #257322

    Draxynnic
    Member

    What do you mean Drax? Currently Invoke Darkness is 2 frost and 2 physical damage: http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Hiliadan/Invoke_Darkness So I am confused why you mention shock?

    So option 2/ favoured for now:
    1/ All Shadow Elf Support units ignore ranged penalties with their attacks AND Umbral Weavers gets a Short ranged 14 damage Shock Bolt.
    2/ All Shadow Elf Support units ignore ranged penalties with their attacks AND Umbral Weavers’ Invoke Darkness gets +2 frost and +2 physical damage

    To translate:

    I prefer option 2.

    However, if we do go with option 1, I think it should be a frost bolt or a frost/shock mix rather than shock.

    – SE Deity Military RG
    Still under discussion:
    1/ +1 def and +3 shock damage to all Shadow Elf units (favoured by Gloweye, Drax?)
    2/ gives Ground Magic and [+2 shock damage OR Exploit Shadows OR Inflict Shocking] to all Shadow Elf Archer, Infantry and Cavalry units (Exploit Shadows favoured by HousePet, Hiliadan)
    3/ gives Ground Magic and +2 shock damage to all the units produced in Shadow Elf cities and unlock the Summoner Chamber (25 gold, 25 mana) in Shadow Elf cities: units summoned in the domain of cities with the Summoner Chamber gets Ground Magic, +2 shock damage and +2 resistance

    I’m inclined to think that the +1 def and +3 shock to all is a bit too powerful.

    It’s comparable to the Draconian version, which is +4 fire… except draconians only get it on selected unit types (irregular, infantry, and pikemen). I’d be inclined to either tone it down to +2 shock damage, or limit the range of potentially affected units (irregular, infantry, and cavalry, perhaps?)

    Also, something I didn’t consider in previous responses: if it grants a bonus on shock damage to ranged attacks, that’s going to be a big boost to archers and ranged supports. That might be quite fitting in and of itself (nasty ranged attacks do fit nicely into the Shadow Elf theme), but it does make Gloweye’s proposal even stronger compared to the draconian equivalent which only applies to melee units.

    If we make it only apply to melee, then that makes it less strong on ranged units, but Shadow Elf archers and supports suddenly getting +3 (or even +2) shock on their melee attacks in addition to a defence boost is a big upgrade.

    #257331

    Gloweye
    Member

    I’m inclined to think that the +1 def and +3 shock to all is a bit too powerful.

    It’s comparable to the Draconian version, which is +4 fire… except draconians only get it on selected unit types (irregular, infantry, and pikemen). I’d be inclined to either tone it down to +2 shock damage, or limit the range of potentially affected units (irregular, infantry, and cavalry, perhaps?)

    Also, something I didn’t consider in previous responses: if it grants a bonus on shock damage to ranged attacks, that’s going to be a big boost to archers and ranged supports. That might be quite fitting in and of itself (nasty ranged attacks do fit nicely into the Shadow Elf theme), but it does make Gloweye’s proposal even stronger compared to the draconian equivalent which only applies to melee units.

    I was thinking about melee only.

    For reference, Humans have 1 Def, 1 Res, 1 Melee Damage and 1 Ranged damage. For all units. I -think- that that’s stronger than 1 def 3 shock.

    After all, our entire race has -2 def. When you use that shock damage bonus..this’ll hurt a lot.

    I just dont like a gimmicky ability like Ground Magic as part of what should be a formidable achievement – the highest level of racial governance. You can perhaps use it one in ten battles. What’s the fun in that ?

    #257332

    Dr_K
    Member

    So all these are there: Warband Campfire, Forgotten Throne, Shadow Gate, Beacon of Light, Hollow Grove, Gemstone Mine, Archon Fort, Heart of the Shadow, Forge of Dreams, Glass Furnace, Celestial Pool?

    Regarding Gemstone Mine (new name of Crystal Mine), yes I guess we can use the model from Charlatan and see where we can use the model from lordoflinks. A shame I had previously noted Charlatan had planned to do that model but didn’t do it, which apparently was an incorrect piece of information as he did do the model.

    Didn’t get back to adding Heart of the Shadow, nor is the Gemstone Mine created. Also, one other note on the Forgotten Throne. I’ve only created the Artica throne. The others will be simple copy and pastes of that single entry since they have the same reward/adventure sets, but I figured it might be easier to work out any bugs or oddities with one instead of multiple and create the new ones later instead of having to edit all entries when one little thing changes.

    I think that Charlatan was creating new Shadow Realm versions of his structures, and I don’t think there was a Shadow Realm Crystal Mine. That might have been what wasn’t finished. Not sure if it was incorporated into the Decodence RMG or not.

    The Gemstone mine’s function will determine what type of structure it will be. I didn’t want to go through creating it just to recreate it later once it’s bonuses are determined.

    Ok so you mean they would need to be “cleared twice” so to speak: once for the defenders above the structure, and once for the “inhabitants” inside the structure? Something to keep in mind but I don’t feel like it really makes it more difficult or more interesting, at this stage.

    Essentially, yes. The other idea that came to mind for me is a harder spawn to clear. Have the spawn site have inhabitants instead of defenders so you can only use one army to clear it. Not sure if there is anything preventing things like this from being created, but just something to keep in mind.

    If the increased domain range from the Forgotten Throne is a pain, it could be moved to the MCU structure.

    I wasn’t very clear with that. Not as much of a pain as I probably made it sound, but if you add a city property to a treasure site, you need to delete that structure entirely and recreate it as a new type and set all of the properties again. Similar to if you add a Visit effect to a normal treasure site.

    Actually, since the forgotten thrones are of Terrain Painting type, we could actually make them project a radius (size of our choosing, currently 0) of different climate around them. Not sure how it would work with the Shadow Realm layer, but might give some sort of Oases within the shadow realm. However, it would also remove the shadow sickness from that area.

    #257333

    Draxynnic
    Member

    I was thinking about melee only.

    For reference, Humans have 1 Def, 1 Res, 1 Melee Damage and 1 Ranged damage. For all units. I -think- that that’s stronger than 1 def 3 shock.

    After all, our entire race has -2 def. When you use that shock damage bonus..this’ll hurt a lot.

    -2 def? Where did that come from?

    A lot of Shadow Elves have lower-than-average defence, but it’s not a racial characteristic, and it’s usually only by one point, as expected for not having Armoured.

    +1 def brings them back up to par – and class units would currently generally end up with better defence with that bonus. Not saying that’s a bad thing, but unless there’s been a decision made that I’ve missed and was not recorded on the wiki page, there’s no -2 def hole to dig out of.

    When it comes to comparing with humans…

    They have the same total bonus (4 stat points) – however, I think a big offensive boost is generally more valuable than generic boosts across the statistics block. Consider this: a Shadow Elf unit with the proposed bonus, in melee, would be benefiting from every point of that bonus unless they were fighting an opponent with shock immunity and/or no physical damage component to their attacks. The human, on the other hand, gets no benefit from their extra missile damage in melee, and may get no benefit from their extra resistance if the enemy is purely doing physical damage. So, in many typical situations, the human is only getting the benefit of two or three of their bonus points, while the shadow elf is getting the benefit of all four.

    Now, you could point out that if the opponent has multiple non-physical channels, the human gets the benefit of the resistance bonus multiple times. However, in such a circumstance, the Shadow Elf is also getting the benefit of their innate +2 resistance multiple times. (Unless one of the channels is fire and their fire weakness triggers.)

    Now, if it’s melee-only, it’s less useful to ranged attackers… but it is enough to start making them dangerous propositions in melee. +3 shock and +1 defence will make Arcane Archers more dangerous in melee than most irregulars, and not far off some tier 1 infantry in offensive output (albeit not in health). Storm Priests with that will be two points short of Evangelists in melee combat.

    I think, in claiming equivalence with the human deity military, you’re underestimating the benefit of a big boost to a single stat over small boosts to multiple stats that might not be relevant to the situation at hand.

    I’d also note that humans are the only race that gets a race-wide boost for their deity military. Dwarves come close, but most races only have 2-3 unit types that get boosted – and we’re already giving Supports a significant boost at Prophet.

    #257335

    Gloweye
    Member

    Then at least have it affect all four melee unit classes – skip just the supports and archers.

    It’s really annoying when you can’t buff a unit you want to focus on because that one type isn’t affected by the bonuses you want. Im thinking about Poison Mastery not working on pikes, Vampiric Hunger not working on Cavalry, that sort of thing. Allow a bit of choice for what kind of units you want to build, instead of having “I have class X, so my pikes are worse than my infantry, and I have race Z, so my pikes are unaffected by my Racial governance.”

    #257372

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Then at least have it affect all four melee unit classes – skip just the supports and archers.

    It’s really annoying when you can’t buff a unit you want to focus on because that one type isn’t affected by the bonuses you want. Im thinking about Poison Mastery not working on pikes, Vampiric Hunger not working on Cavalry, that sort of thing. Allow a bit of choice for what kind of units you want to build, instead of having “I have class X, so my pikes are worse than my infantry, and I have race Z, so my pikes are unaffected by my Racial governance.”

    I hear what you’re saying – I personally find it quite frustrating how much of a red-headed-stepchild raptors are. (Okay, maybe ‘red-crested-stepchild’ is more accurate…)

    On the other hand, though, I’d consider that a broader issue than just the Shadow Elves. The trend is that military deity racial governances of that level of power only affect three unit types: pikemen, infantry and irregulars for draconians, goblins, tigrans and orcs; infantry, cavalry, and pikemen for halflings. If we think that’s a problem, it may well be more appropriate to put our proverbial money where our mouth is and fix it for all of them rather than just our own. Otherwise, we should keep the Shadow Elves to the rules the others follow.

    What we can do, though, is make it so that all of the racial units get at least something.

    #257386

    Gloweye
    Member

    On the other hand, though, I’d consider that a broader issue than just the Shadow Elves.

    Well, this one’s in our power to avoid. For the other ones, we should have pushed the Dev’s more in beta 🙂

    This shadow realm project is to add to the game. No matter how much I WANT to fix it, I don’t think we SHOULD fix it. However, there’s no reason to do better with the race we do have, so I’d like to affect all four of them.

    What we can do, though, is make it so that all of the racial units get at least something.

    We could make the +1 Def global, and the +3 Shock damage only for the four classes. Or hell, make it +2 if you think +3 is to much. However, I very much prefer the elegance and broad application of this style to the niche and gimmicky Ground Magic. Especially for a Deity upgrade.

    “Shadow Elves get +1 Defense. Shadow Elf Cavalry, Pikeman, Infantry and Irregulars gain +2 Shock Melee Damage.”

    #257387

    HousePet
    Member

    I’m strongly for Exploit Shadows instead of +Shock damage for theming and mechanical interaction reasons. As that is a bit weaker than a guaranteed damage bonus, would pairing it with +20% physical resist be too much?

    Add Inflict Shadows to Reanimator and Succubus?

    Ground Magic is a bit too niche for a Deity level. But it would be nice to add it to a few more class units. Perhaps Shaman, Apprentice and Exalted?

    #257392

    Draxynnic
    Member

    This shadow realm project is to add to the game. No matter how much I WANT to fix it, I don’t think we SHOULD fix it. However, there’s no reason to do better with the race we do have, so I’d like to affect all four of them.

    Sure, but if we give the Shadow Elves something that is quite a bit better than what the other races have, that creates a balance issue (even though we’ve generally had the attitude that deity upgrades aren’t really much of a balance concern because we don’t expect people to get there in competitive games).

    I think the idea behind the limited applications at the time was to emphasise which units the race was strongest with in some cases, while preventing certain units from getting too many benefits in other cases (Goblin Big Beetles, for instance). Problem is that in the first cases, it may have emphasised it too much. That’s probably a different discussion, though.

    I’d be happy with broad application at +2 shock. Probably to everything at that stage, in fact – +1 Def and +2 melee Shock is something I’d consider roughly equivalent to what humans have.

    I’m strongly for Exploit Shadows instead of +Shock damage for theming and mechanical interaction reasons. As that is a bit weaker than a guaranteed damage bonus, would pairing it with +20% physical resist be too much?

    Adding a 20% Physical Protection is an option I’ve considered, but I haven’t put it forward for three reasons:

    1) Having a base 20% physical protection will make Shadow Shift twice as good, as it would bring the protection up to 80%, unless we had some means of making Shadow Shift fix the physical protection to 60% rather than 60% plus/minus other modifiers.

    2) One of the reasons why Infused got changed from my preferred permanent-incorporeal state is that an objection was made that it made it too easy for Shadow Elves to get around their relative weakness against physical damage. Applying 20% physical protection across the board would make it even easier (the permanently incorporeal Infused at least required the Shadow Elf player to invest in a specific counter).

    3) 20% Physical Protection (and +1 resistance) is already the Orc deity military governance, and that only for a few unit types rather than across the board.

    Ground Magic is a bit too niche for a Deity level. But it would be nice to add it to a few more class units. Perhaps Shaman, Apprentice and Exalted?

    Hrrrmn. That could work, although I’m saying that without reviewing what proposals we already have for class units. If we follow that trend, it could possibly also be an option for Deathbringers and Assassins (same caveat applies).

    #257400

    Gloweye
    Member

    I’d prefer to keep it race flavored, then – put it on the pikes only. Perhaps include hunters and monster hunters, since that’s how we flavored the pikes. Shaman/Apprentice/Exalted however doesn’t really feel that fitting to me ?

    #257401

    HousePet
    Member

    Oh yes, Shadow Shift and Orc Deity… How about giving Shadow Shift then? It is currently only available to Infused. Not to all units though, just 3 or 4 types.

    Restricting Ground Magic to Pikes only is interesting, but means that only a couple of units get it. I suggested Shaman and Apprentice as they have a staff and some level of magic manipulation. Exalted doesn’t really fit at all, but the only things Theocrat units are currently getting is shock damage channels, and not even via Inflict/Exploit Shadows. Evangelist might make more sense, but I don’t remember if we came to a decision about what it got (also they scare me already…).

    #257424

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Two important topics first, following a discussion with Gloweye:
    1/ should the Dark Elves be in the expansion and if yes, should the Dark Elf mod be integrated into the main mod (so that only 1 mod needs to be selected in the launcher)?
    My own answer is: definitely yes. The Shadow Elves partly descend from the Dark Elves and it makes sense to have the Dark Elves show their nose to explain more clearly where the Shadow Elves come from. What we are working on is not a “mod” but an “expansion” and it requires enough content. We can’t bring new victory conditions like Beacon or Seals, or game mechanics like Racial Governance, like Triumph did with GR and EL, but we can bring 1 new layer, 2 new Dwellings, 1 new Race and several new abilities, units and sites. Removing 1 Dwelling is removing a big part of our content. And the expansion is built as a whole and will be balanced as such, so players should not be able to pick and choose elements from it, otherwise it’s just another mod. A real expansion with coherent and rich content like what we are doing can make a big impact, like the unofficial patch or AoW2:SM did. The Dark Elves will become more and more integrated with the rest as we finalize the expansion, just like to the latest ideas from HousePet: the Temporal Pocket would allow to recruit Dark Elves in the SR.
    In the future, we may have a campaign or at least 1-2 scenarios and it will link everything together even more.
    In terms of balance, having a new strong force in the Underground will help to counterbalance the new force on the “top” Shadow Realm layer (accessible only from the Surface, right?).

    2/ Should we remove Decodence’s sites and climates (Toundra and Autumn) from the surface and underground layers?
    The latest discussions started with HousePet on site (income) balance are based on the assumption that we will remove have only the official game’s sites on the surface and underground.
    I am not 100% opposed to having at least some content from Decodence on the surface and underground but I do not believe they are balanced now and I think we do not have time to work on them now. So I think it is necessary to remove everything for now, finish the expansion as described on the Wiki now, and when it’s finished, see what we can bring back from Decodence.
    The 2 new climates have a big impact on the like/dislike, through how races consider them but also through their impact on the ratio of areas of other climates on the map. I cannot believe it has been rigorously tested by anyone.
    Same for the sites, they are too many of them, I don’t believe it doesn’t impact the balance of the game.

    Recruitment sites

    Requiring the use of a Shadow Elf Shaman to get any Shadow Demon units seems super exclusive. Do we really want to restrict to evil Archdruids only?

    You’re right but for me, it should be seen the other way round: the Shadow Elf Archdruid has a nice little bonus as he can access some Shadow Demons but it’s just a little perk and nothing significant, while overall, the Shadow Demons are just not playable by humans or AI players. I don’t know what you think but to me, it also makes it interesting that they can’t be played, that makes them more unique. It also makes it easier for us, because it we wanted to make them playable, we would probably need a full Dwelling, right?

    The Transtemporal Pocket explains how you encounter a camp of troops from a time when a large amount of Athlan troops entered the Shadow Realm, either to fight Demons or other threats.

    Ok, I had misread what you wrote.
    I kind of like the idea though I am not sure whether the Shadow Realm can have such effects on time? I think there was a discussion at some point about the passage of time in the Shadow Realm but not sure what the conclusions were and how they would apply to this idea?
    So we could target 2 recruitment sites, one with Archons and Dark Elves, in theory from the period when Meandor entered the Shadow Realm and sealed the Shadow Gates, and another with units from Athla, that have entered very recently following the latest opening of the Gates and are seeking adventure, gold and glory?

    Spawn sites

    Have the spawn site have inhabitants instead of defenders so you can only use one army to clear it.

    Oh, that does seem interesting!
    Maybe we could do that for the Larva Pool? It does not seem appropriate for the Warband Campfire.

    Forgotten Throne

    since the forgotten thrones are of Terrain Painting type, we could actually make them project a radius (size of our choosing, currently 0) of different climate around them. Not sure how it would work with the Shadow Realm layer, but might give some sort of Oases within the shadow realm. However, it would also remove the shadow sickness from that area.

    That also seems interesting. There could be a 1 hex radius of climate associated to the wizard of the throne, e.g. Tropical for Yaka, etc.

    Deity RG

    It’s really annoying when you can’t buff a unit you want to focus on because that one type isn’t affected by the bonuses you want. Im thinking about Poison Mastery not working on pikes, Vampiric Hunger not working on Cavalry, that sort of thing. Allow a bit of choice for what kind of units you want to build, instead of having “I have class X, so my pikes are worse than my infantry, and I have race Z, so my pikes are unaffected by my Racial governance.”

    When you play Orcs, you know that you’ll get -1 resistance and you plan accordingly and try to play on your strength or bring some outside elements that have higher resistance, you don’t ask for +1 resistance through RG or a race building.
    Similarly, it seems very dangerous and not really interesting to want to be able to boost all unit types. It removes choices: you can have your cake and eat it, you can have everything you want. For me, a good strategy game puts trade-offs in front of you and you make choices and that leads to some weaknesses and some strengths, but not to being “very good” everywhere. Vampiric Hunger not working on Cavalry and Poison Mastery not working on Pikes are good design decisions in my opinion, as is the fact that you can’t boost every units with RG. I’m very happy that “I have class X, so my pikes are worse than my infantry, and I have race Z, so my pikes are unaffected by my Racial governance.”, otherwise there would be no real choices, and no real need to adapt.

    However, I very much prefer the elegance and broad application of this style to the niche and gimmicky Ground Magic.

    Reminder of the proposals that were on the Wiki:
    – SE Deity Military RG gives +1 def and +3 shock damage to all Shadow Elf units (might limit to +2 shock, compare to other RG)
    – SE Deity Military RG gives Ground Magic AND [+2 shock damage OR Exploit Shadows OR Inflict Shocking] to all Shadow Elf Archer, Infantry and Cavalry units
    – SE Deity Military RG gives Ground Magic AND +2 shock damage to all the units produced in Shadow Elf cities and unlock the Summoner Chamber (25 gold, 25 mana) in Shadow Elf cities: units summoned in the domain of cities with the Summoner Chamber gets Ground Magic, +2 shock damage and +2 resistance

    So please don’t forget the stuff after the “and”. Exploit Shadows is +3 shock damage vs units Marked by Shadows, that’s huge and that’s also the figure you’re pushing. Adding some interactions between units and some more advanced effects is more interesting in my opinion than a crude +1 def and +3 shock damage.

    Giving Shadow Shift to some units would indeed be a Deity boost! That would be quite powerful! I also agree with the analysis of Drax on +20% Physical Protection and am also against it.
    RG in the official game leaves the racial class units too much out of the boosts in my opinion. I don’t really understand the logic of it, so I don’t understand either why you want to keep them out here too Gloweye? They are racial units too and it would make sense to have better Shadow Elf Hunters than Goblin Hunters if you invested a lot in SE.

    So basically what we want to achieve is something similar in strength to “Shadow Elves get +1 Defense. Shadow Elf Cavalry, Pikeman, Infantry and Irregulars gain +2 Shock Melee Damage”.
    What about dropping Ground Magic and instead focusing on Inflict Marked by Shadows and Exploit Shadows? (I would like to have the 3 abilities, Ground Magic included and only on the units noted in the latest posts, but that would make the Deity boost too complicated to understand) So everyone gets Exploit Shadows (including the units who already have Inflict Marked by Shadows, namely Touched, Infused, Umbral Weaver, Scoundrel, Manticore Rider) and a few units get Inflict Marked by Shadows (because otherwise, the pool of units that have it is too limited, and late game, you would mostly use Weavers, the other units being more complicated or class-limited). And maybe also +1 def accross the board.

    Prophet Military
    Let’s confirm this one then? All Shadow Elf Support Support units ignore ranged penalties with their attacks AND Umbral Weavers’s Invoke Darkness gets +2 frost and +2 physical damage

    Check out the Wiki for a lot of very good data about AoW3!
    What you really need to improve your AoW3 experience: the balance mod and its presentation video
    Last but not least, check out the Battlefield.com/AoW3 the community website for AoW3

    #257426

    Gloweye
    Member

    1/ should the Dark Elves be in the expansion and if yes, should the Dark Elf mod be integrated into the main mod (so that only 1 mod needs to be selected in the launcher)?

    IMHO, No. Whether we call it a mod or expansion, I firmly believe that the dark elves should be seperate. It doesn’t matter for the RMG (and they’ll be compatible without a patch), and they’re not required or part of the effort of filling out the otherwise starved Shadow Realm area.

    So to keep our focus on the Shadow Realm, I’d argue to keep the Dark Elves seperate.

    Keeping mods modular, and things like that.

    2/ Should we remove Decodence’s sites and climates (Toundra and Autumn) from the surface and underground layers?

    The shadow realm started as an expansion on decodence. I’ll be the first to admit that it’s grown a bit beyond that, but all our assets are still in there, and i firmly believe that there is very little people who would like Shadow Realm but not tundra/autumn.

    I don’t know what you think but to me, it also makes it interesting that they can’t be played, that makes them more unique. It also makes it easier for us, because it we wanted to make them playable, we would probably need a full Dwelling, right?

    Content you can’t play is not interesting. Rather the exact opposite.

    While a full dwelling would be my preference, we’re possibly simply strapped for time a bit. So a roamer spawner first would be fine, IMHO.

    Or perhaps we can have one of our sites give spells that can summon Shadow Demons. There a place we can work that in ?

    When you play Orcs, you know that you’ll get -1 resistance and you plan accordingly and try to play on your strength or bring some outside elements that have higher resistance, you don’t ask for +1 resistance through RG or a race building.
    Similarly, it seems very dangerous and not really interesting to want to be able to boost all unit types. It removes choices: you can have your cake and eat it, you can have everything you want. For me, a good strategy game puts trade-offs in front of you and you make choices and that leads to some weaknesses and some strengths, but not to being “very good” everywhere. Vampiric Hunger not working on Cavalry and Poison Mastery not working on Pikes are good design decisions in my opinion, as is the fact that you can’t boost every units with RG. I’m very happy that “I have class X, so my pikes are worse than my infantry, and I have race Z, so my pikes are unaffected by my Racial governance.”, otherwise there would be no real choices, and no real need to adapt.

    No, it removes any choices you have to only boost a few. If Im orc, my deity boosts Irregulars, Infantry, and Pikes. Therefore, a Cavalry based strategy is inherently weaker than it would be if the melee combat upgrade actually affected the remaining Melee unit. Infantry based strats will be stronger, even if I pick warlord for the 15 HP boost.

    What you’re saying would be true, if you could actually make choices. So pick like two out of four units that Deity will boost, and keep it at that. However, we can’t do that. So I want to keep the options open. Dont rule out certain strats by your race/class choices (because seriously, how often do you see cavalry orcs/dracs out there ?). Instead, make choices in your city infrastructure and MCU’s, and let that determine your strengts and weaknesses.

    RG in the official game leaves the racial class units too much out of the boosts in my opinion. I don’t really understand the logic of it, so I don’t understand either why you want to keep them out here too Gloweye? They are racial units too and it would make sense to have better Shadow Elf Hunters than Goblin Hunters if you invested a lot in SE.

    ehm…no ? The way im proposing things, the racial class units will benefit from all the boosts. And even better, you’ll have some use for every boost regardless of your class. Instead of some boosts just not doing anything.

    Prophet Military
    Let’s confirm this one then? All Shadow Elf Support Support units ignore ranged penalties with their attacks AND Umbral Weavers’s Invoke Darkness gets +2 frost and +2 physical damage

    Agreed, but im not 100% certain that we can actually build that ? Someone tested it ?

    So basically what we want to achieve is something similar in strength to “Shadow Elves get +1 Defense. Shadow Elf Cavalry, Pikeman, Infantry and Irregulars gain +2 Shock Melee Damage”.
    What about dropping Ground Magic and instead focusing on Inflict Marked by Shadows and Exploit Shadows? (I would like to have the 3 abilities, Ground Magic included and only on the units noted in the latest posts, but that would make the Deity boost too complicated to understand) So everyone gets Exploit Shadows (including the units who already have Inflict Marked by Shadows, namely Touched, Infused, Umbral Weaver, Scoundrel, Manticore Rider) and a few units get Inflict Marked by Shadows (because otherwise, the pool of units that have it is too limited, and late game, you would mostly use Weavers, the other units being more complicated or class-limited). And maybe also +1 def accross the board.

    If you want to keep it simple:
    Archers and Supports get “Inflict Marked by Shadows” (but the name actually really sucks. How about Apply Shadow Mark ? or just Mark with Shadow ? Neither of these are good enough either if you ask me, but well….it just looks odd with that name.)

    Pikes, Infantry, Irregulars, and Cavalry get “Exploit Shadow Mark” (Just Exploit Shadows is also….feels odd. Just naming detail tho.).

    And then keep the +1 Def on either all units, or just the melee classes.

    That way, you’ll really encourage some more mixing of units. Run in some Umbral Weavers to apply the marks AoE, then run over with the others to give them a good whack.

    That said, define “simple”. Vanilla Frostling economic Champion has Frost Castle cost reduction, Frost Castle income, and Ice Queen discount. Same one for Dracs has Peak of the Forefathers cost reduction, has it increase city vision range, and has it apply a medal on all produced units.

    #257440

    Bob5
    Member

    Agreed, but im not 100% certain that we can actually build that ? Someone tested it ?

    Should be fairly straightforward. The Umbral Weavers only have Invoke Darkness as a ranged attack if I’m not mistaken, so that boost can simply be applied as a boost to ranged damage.

    #257445

    lordoflinks
    Member

    In regards to the three issues currently being discussed I feel I can weigh in on:
    1. The Fate of the Shadow Demons
    I will be quite honest here, a dwelling would require a new model as none of the dwellings are suitable for the Shadow Demons and that lies utterly beyond my skills. I tried to get maya to work, and it did not work and so if you wish for a model for a dwelling, I’m not doing it. I caused myself enough stress last time I tried, and I just don’t want to put myself through all that again. I spent a good ten hours trying and eventually failing to get textures for something I created in Maya to work with the content editor. I’m still fine to do anything as long as I don’t have to make a new model.
    Hence, I would suggest a simple roaming spawner for the first release. My other concern is that if we do the Syrons as a dwelling as well (I think there is too much overlap with the Shadow Elves for them to be a race) there will be three dwellings exclusive to the Shadow Realm, and that seems too much in my opinion. I still believe the only way to do justice to the Shadow Demons is through a class, in which case a reskined sorcerer’s class building would serve well as a Shadow Thrall class building.

    2. Decodence
    I think for balance concerns, the new climates should be left in, but any new structures should be kicked out.

    3. The Dark Elves
    I think they should be integrated into the main mod. I have two reasons for this. The first is that if we wish for our mod to be balanced well, I fear having the mod be modular will be very damaging to this goal, as we would need to balance the mod for the Dark Elves being used but some players may not have them. The other, and more major, concern in my eyes is the implications for non-steam users in having the mod be split up. If we have the mod composed of 3-4 different mods it will make the task of keeping their copy of the mod up to date, extremely awkward for a non-steam user as they would need to check which individual component of the mod has updated, and which has not, and this will prove confusing for them in my eyes. For this reason I think the mod should be only one mod to aid non-steam users in figuring out when they need to update.

    Overall, my opinion is we should aim to have a balanced and as high quality of a mod as possible and any issues that get in our way need to be dealt with; as such I would prefer we left the Shadow Demons out for now (Aside for roaming units) as I would rather we don’t touch them rather than do them an injustice, my class idea is in no way realistic and is only my opinion.

    #257448

    HousePet
    Member

    I don’t think we should include anything unless it is directly used by the Shadow Realm layer.
    While we may aspire to be making a full community expansion, we don’t have the resources to do something on that scale without compromising on quality. And since we have the ability to load mod than one mod this time around, there is no need to pile everything into our mod so that it isn’t left out, it can go in another mod (unfortunate conflicts aside). And while it is likely that anyone using this mod will be interested in other stuff, there are still logistical issues with a huge mod that we then have to put up with. Filling out a mod with bloat just so that it feel like a proper expansion is one of the worst reasons I can think of for doing it.

    I’m not familiar with the constraints of RMG modding, but I’m leaning towards having a mod for each layer. (Maybe combine Surface and Underground if there is too much overlap in used assets.) I’ve been pondering putting together an Underground compilation mod which would potentially include the Dark Elves, some new structures and replacements for those plant visit structure which look so out of place underground. Yes I’m having delusions of graphic modding abilities here. 😛

    But anyway, even if this does turn into a full expansion mod in the future, there is no need to burden it with more than we can chew. I recommend restraint in including things we don’t actually need, then review after it is properly off the ground.

    #257449

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Hiliadan wrote:

    I don’t know what you think but to me, it also makes it interesting that they can’t be played, that makes them more unique. It also makes it easier for us, because it we wanted to make them playable, we would probably need a full Dwelling, right?

    Content you can’t play is not interesting. Rather the exact opposite.

    Phoenyx, Bone Dragon, Dire Pinguin, Kobold, Obsidian Dragon, etc. all cannot be played, and yet they’re interesting to play against. You could argue that it is possible to play them through secret spells. Well, I’m ok to make Shadow Demons available through a secret spell that could be obtained only in a Forgotten Throne for instance. Not sure how it should work though: 1 spell per unit (so 4 spells)? 1 spell for Larva and then you need to Evolve it? 1 spell only for Harvester or Bombard but no Lord (too powerful)? I think 1 Larva spell is a good compromise as it gives access to all units but is not too OP in itself (if it has an adequate mana cost).

    No, it removes any choices you have to only boost a few. If Im orc, my deity boosts Irregulars, Infantry, and Pikes. Therefore, a Cavalry based strategy is inherently weaker

    We’re not talking about the same choices. I’m talking about trade-offs and of different ways to play the game: e.g. a Dreadnought does not play like a Sorcerer, which doesn’t play like a Theocrat. Would you really want a Dreadnought to have flying units because another class has Flying units? Similarly, playing as an Orc involves adopting different strategies than playing as a High Elf, and it may mean not using Cavalry or Archers as your main force.
    So yes, you have less choices in what units are the strongest in your army, but you have real trade-offs. If you want a strong Cavalry, you may need to avoid mono-race and pick some races that have a good cavalry along the way, but then it will be harder to reach Monoculture, etc. If you can have all that you want, there are maybe choices but no real trade-offs, and there is less strategy in my opinion.
    Anyway, I can understand your opinion and I don’t think that any of us is going to change his mind right now, but as Drax pointed out, other races’ RG are not done like what you say, so I guess if we want to keep the SE balanced, we don’t really have a choice.

    RG in the official game leaves the racial class units too much out of the boosts in my opinion. I don’t really understand the logic of it, so I don’t understand either why you want to keep them out here too Gloweye?

    ehm…no ? The way im proposing things, the racial class units will benefit from all the boosts. And even better, you’ll have some use for every boost regardless of your class. Instead of some boosts just not doing anything.

    I was referring to this sentence:

    I’d prefer to keep it race flavored, then – put it on the pikes only.

    I’m not sure what you meant both times but well, if we agree racial class units should also be boosted, that’s the most important. 😀

    Archers and Supports get “Inflict Marked by Shadows” (but the name actually really sucks. How about Apply Shadow Mark ? or just Mark with Shadow ? Neither of these are good enough either if you ask me, but well….it just looks odd with that name.)

    I remember someone (you? :P) saying that it should be named “Inflict XX” because it behaved like an Inflict from the official game. And I actually remember (but not sure) that it initially had another name and was renamed with Inflict to remain coherent with other abilities. Personally, I find Inflict Marked by Shadows fine. I do agree “Exploit Shadows” might be not the best name, as it somehow is the mark that is exploited. I’m fine with keeping the current “Exploit Shadows” except if we find a really better name.

    That said, define “simple”. Vanilla Frostling economic Champion has Frost Castle cost reduction, Frost Castle income, and Ice Queen discount. Same one for Dracs has Peak of the Forefathers cost reduction, has it increase city vision range, and has it apply a medal on all produced units.

    By “simple”, I was referring more to 1/ the number of lines necessary to describe the RG and 2/ how many targets it affects. What you described is fine and is “simple” IMO. What I was thinking about was something like:
    “Shadow Elf units get +1 defense and Exploit Shadows. Shadow Elf Shamans, Apprentices, Exalteds, Assassins, Death Bringers get Inflict Marked by Shadow and Ground Magic.”
    That is still shorter than I thought it would be but there are 7 different targets, and more should probably be added like Storm Priest and maybe Arcane Archers.
    The proposal of Gloweye with unit types might be a good compromise.

    @lordoflinks: thanks for the feedback on the 2 topics of Dark Elves and Decodence RMG content (and also the Shadow Demons).

    @dr_k, @bob, @Drax, @housepet: what’s your opinion?

    Check out the Wiki for a lot of very good data about AoW3!
    What you really need to improve your AoW3 experience: the balance mod and its presentation video
    Last but not least, check out the Battlefield.com/AoW3 the community website for AoW3

    #257450

    Gloweye
    Member

    Phoenyx, Bone Dragon, Dire Pinguin, Kobold, Obsidian Dragon, etc. all cannot be played, and yet they’re interesting to play against. You could argue that it is possible to play them through secret spells. Well, I’m ok to make Shadow Demons available through a secret spell that could be obtained only in a Forgotten Throne for instance. Not sure how it should work though: 1 spell per unit (so 4 spells)? 1 spell for Larva and then you need to Evolve it? 1 spell only for Harvester or Bombard but no Lord (too powerful)? I think 1 Larva spell is a good compromise as it gives access to all units but is not too OP in itself (if it has an adequate mana cost).

    Tier the spells. Lord and Harvester can be Forgotten Throne, but Summon Larva can be put as site reward for example for exploring the neutral monster spawner. Still allows you to go for shadow demon strats, as long as you’re ok locating a shadow gate, trying to find it, then play the evolve game for 2 tiers to be able to spawn gold-supported larvas.

    I’m not sure what you meant both times but well, if we agree racial class units should also be boosted, that’s the most important.

    Yeah, class pikes should be boosted as well, as perhaps a few specific units. Didn’t agree with the lineup up there. IMO, the targets should be:
    – Phalanx (because pikes)
    – Monster Hunters (because their flavor is close to the racial pike’s)
    – Engineers (their kind of gimmick.)

    And no others. Sorc got plenty ways to deal with spells, with dispel and steal enchantment.

    I remember someone (you? :P) saying that it should be named “Inflict XX” because it behaved like an Inflict from the official game. And I actually remember (but not sure) that it initially had another name and was renamed with Inflict to remain coherent with other abilities. Personally, I find Inflict Marked by Shadows fine. I do agree “Exploit Shadows” might be not the best name, as it somehow is the mark that is exploited. I’m fine with keeping the current “Exploit Shadows” except if we find a really better name.

    Well, that’s an argument. However, a good name is more important. I was just noting this as something that caught my eye. If we find no better names, I suppose these are fine. But there’s better names out there.

    #257452

    HousePet
    Member

    As a quick “I have a headache” response for the Deity Military option:
    Obviously too wordy, but I’m also wondering if the amount of Inflict Shadows being given out indicates that the ability is not being given out enough by default. As in, if we need to give out more Inflict Shadows’ to make the Exploit Shadows work for all units, are there enough units with Inflict Shadows to make the unit combos work without the Deity upgrade?

    #257460

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Lacking time today, I’ll try to add the table to work on the sites on the Dropbox tomorrow as well as have a look at what we currently have on the .acp, to look for some obvious oversights. We’re still lacking defenders and reward sets for several sites… :S I’m afraid I won’t be able to come up with anything before 1 week (I’m on holidays abroad with limited time for AoW3). Maybe it’s still worth it to launch a PBEM game as a first test to see how things go? And then we would launch another one in a few weeks when all the sites are ready.

    Gloweye, could you please put the latest version of the RMG integration mod on the Dropbox, as it is currently (even if it’s not yet fully ready), to use for that first PBEM game? 🙂

    Check out the Wiki for a lot of very good data about AoW3!
    What you really need to improve your AoW3 experience: the balance mod and its presentation video
    Last but not least, check out the Battlefield.com/AoW3 the community website for AoW3

    #257466

    Hiliadan
    Member

    but Summon Larva can be put as site reward for example for exploring the neutral monster spawner.

    Mmh, I’d be wary of putting a spell that can give very quick access to a T4 (if you’re lucky but still, that will happen) in a low level site. My favourite option would be to give access only to Summon Larva in Forgotten Thrones. Second best would be Summon Larva in Vault of Knowledge and Summon Shadow Demon (with Harvester and Lord) on Forgotten Thrones. Or we make sure the Larva Pool is high level enough (including by making it a site that you can enter only with 1 stack). Right now, it’s based on a Necromantic Circle, that’s not sufficient.

    Yeah, class pikes should be boosted as well, as perhaps a few specific units. Didn’t agree with the lineup up there. IMO, the targets should be:
    – Phalanx (because pikes)
    – Monster Hunters (because their flavor is close to the racial pike’s)
    – Engineers (their kind of gimmick.)

    So you mean this?
    Shadow Elf units get +1 defense. Shadow Elf Archers and Supports get Inflict Marked by Shadows. Shadow Elf Pikemen, Infantry, Irregulars, and Cavalry get Exploit Shadows. Shadow Elf Phalanx, Monster Hunters and Engineers get Ground Magic.

    I’m also wondering if the amount of Inflict Shadows being given out indicates that the ability is not being given out enough by default.

    That’s possible but hard to say now. I feel like there is enough and if there was too much Inflict Marked by Shadow, Exploit Shadows would be too strong. Let’s test and see.

    While we may aspire to be making a full community expansion, we don’t have the resources to do something on that scale without compromising on quality. And since we have the ability to load mod than one mod this time around, there is no need to pile everything into our mod so that it isn’t left out, it can go in another mod (unfortunate conflicts aside). And while it is likely that anyone using this mod will be interested in other stuff, there are still logistical issues with a huge mod that we then have to put up with. Filling out a mod with bloat just so that it feel like a proper expansion is one of the worst reasons I can think of for doing it.

    @housepet: I had missed that post.
    I’m not sure why you say we don’t have the resource to do it on that scale? For me 2 Dwellings, 1 Race, 1 new layer, new units, new sites = sufficient scale. As Lordoflinks pointed out, one need to keep the number of mods low is the hassle for non Steam users to update them. Another need is for all multiplayers (PBEM and live) for who loading several mods and switching between depending on the mods used by different games is a real pain (+ also update issues specific to PBEM). And another one is that when we’re going to say “guys, you need to load 5 mods to play the expansion”, people won’t like it, so we really need to keep it as simple as possible, 4 mods are already a lot.
    So you’re meaning the Dark Elves are “bloat”? 😛 I guess not, and I don’t think anyone here want to add crap content just to reach a “minimum content quota”. 🙂
    Actually, I would have been happy to add another Dwellings (e.g. Beatman Dwelling from Eomolch) but the only ones of high enough quality are from Eomolch and he didn’t agree to modify any of them to include them in the expansion. And modifications would have been necessary to make them balanced with the rest of the expansion and to create lore links with the expansion.

    Regarding sites:
    @housepet: I added the Excel spreadsheet in the Dropbox: \Dropbox\AoW3-Shadow-Realm-expansion\balance\20170915_AoW3-SR_site-balance.xls
    It’s based on v1.5 of AoW3 I think so the first thing to do is to check it to add potential missing sites and/or correct information.
    There are 2 columns in A and B to indicate if it’s in Athla (=1) and/or in the Shadow Realm (SR) (=1). It will allow us to calculate sumprod() to calculate the resource in each layer.
    I also added a column C and D with “Level”, to fill with the level (= Strong, Epic, Legendary, etc. and let’s write “Open” for sites that do not require entering, for now) and “RMG weight” to fill with RMG info based on the modding tool (to do later).
    I’ll try to fill it when I have time, but if you can help fill most of it, that would be really great! I believe you already have most of the data from your previous work. Probably no need to fill columns N and right of N as they won’t be useful for us at this stage.

    EDIT:
    Refineus confirmed he would be interested to help develop a Campaign! That’s great news. I think we should still focus on what we had already planned but we can dedicate a small share of our time to feed him to develop the campaign. 🙂 Drax in particular, your input on the lore and story of the campaign will probably be very useful!
    See here: http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/shadow-realm-campaign/

    • This reply was modified 5 days, 4 hours ago by  Hiliadan.

    Check out the Wiki for a lot of very good data about AoW3!
    What you really need to improve your AoW3 experience: the balance mod and its presentation video
    Last but not least, check out the Battlefield.com/AoW3 the community website for AoW3

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