Some stupid things the AI do in auto-combat (and that would need fix)

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Some stupid things the AI do in auto-combat (and that would need fix)

This topic contains 26 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  gladis 7 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #249181

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Just got a big 3 stacks vs 3 stacks (actually 3+1 unit) battle and the AI did some very stupid things that would be worth correcting:
    – dispelling Regrowth on a friendly unit by trying to dispel Immolation. Would be nice if AI does not try to dispel things if the unit has Regrowth (or at least as many buffs than debuffs)
    – moving near a unit and taking an attack of opportunity by moving to an adjacent hex while engaged to try to flank the enemy… because 1/ you do not flank it when you do that, and 2/ you take an attack of opportunity!!! It’s ok to try this kind of movement to attack a 2nd unit but not if you want to flank the unit you move near to
    – something more difficult to prevent I guess: a ranged unit killed an explosive unit when a nearby friendly unit with low HP was adjacent, killing the adjacent friendly unit (who could also have killed the explosive unit, saving action point for the ranged unit)

    #249182

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Biggest problem I have with AI combat behavior is that the AI allows to be “split”: say you have two stacks of AI; if you attack it “frontal, so that the two AI stacks are lined up behind one another, the front stack doesn’s try to link with the troops behind . it doesn’t WAIT, but instead attacks with the front 6, so you can kill it piecemeal.

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 4 months ago by  Jolly Joker.
    #249184

    Gilafron
    Member

    100% agree with Jolly Joker. That’s an actual exploit in PBEM games for combat between players. It is far more advantageous to be the attacker with equal stacks due to the AI rushing forward the front defending stack. I try my best to position archers in front so they don’t run as far forward, but it is still disastrous.

    #249187

    something more difficult to prevent I guess: a ranged unit killed an explosive unit when a nearby friendly unit with low HP was adjacent, killing the adjacent friendly unit (who could also have killed the explosive unit, saving action point for the ranged unit)

    Lol I’ve done this myself by mistake :(.

    Biggest problem I have with AI combat behavior is that the AI allows to be “split”: say you have two stacks of AI; if you attack it “frontal, so that the two AI stacks are lined up behind one another, the front stack doesn’s try to link with the troops behind . it doesn’t WAIT, but instead attacks with the front 6, so you can kill it piecemeal.

    There was a time the AI would simply rush whatever unit it had forward without consolidating even just in the one stack, so cavalry would always rush ahead. Triumph put in a command to sometimes wait, which helped. I *imagine* the command to link all troops together is actually doable.

    Ask Santa Claus.

    Failing that, ask Triumph? 😛

    #249188

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    The thred title does ask already, doesn’t it? “That would need fix” implies it.

    #249191

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Yeah and I was wondering if my 1st point could be fixed through mod?

    #249202

    SikBok
    Keymaster

    Booked a ticket to get the issues mentioned in the OP and Jolly’s followup post looked at.

    #249292

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Some new ones (should be easy to fix):
    – casting Greater Reawakening in a battle with only 1 allied unit… (big waste of mana!!)
    – casting Killer Instinct in a battle where no enemy units left alive is a racial unit (e.g. only Monsters left standing so will not be of any use)

    #249812

    Hiliadan
    Member

    – casting Greater Reawakening in a battle with only 1 allied unit… (big waste of mana!!)

    That also works with Chant of Unlife.

    #251846

    SikBok
    Keymaster

    We’ve looked into several TC AI issues. We resolved one of them. Patch note to look out for is: “AI in a city not disjuncting or moving out of a defensive structure when subject to greater stoning.”

    #254085

    Hiliadan
    Member

    – casting Greater Reawakening in a battle with only 1 allied unit… (big waste of mana!!)

    That also works with Chant of Unlife.

    – casting Killer Instinct in a battle where no enemy units left alive is a racial unit (e.g. only Monsters left standing so will not be of any use)

    That would be great if these could be fixed, that can happen pretty often in a large game, I don’t know if they were judged too complicated to implement in the last patch?

    Two new ones:
    – Casting Slayer’s Doubt (or Stiffen Limb) on a Settler (or Builder for that matter): it’s not going to attack you anyway!
    – this one is more complicated but a very very big issue in PBEM: heroes (and other units) use Healing or other healing abilities in a very untimely and unwise manner, very often opening their flank to enemies (like: they move IN FRONT of their ally and literally open their back to their enemies). Two issues here: 1/ healing abilities should receive a lower priority because sometimes the AI prefers to heal rather than attack, even when it could lead to a kill, 2/ the movement should be more clever, to avoid turning your back to enemy units

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 10 months ago by  Hiliadan.
    #257794

    Hiliadan
    Member

    One new one:
    – cast Fire Ball repeatedly on walls in siege battles even after one breach was made (casting Fire Balls on walls is a waste of mana overall but it’s even more so when a breach has been made; in my case, it started casting Fire Balls immediately after having cast Blessing of Health, whereas it should have cast Holy War first, as it’s much more useful on 10+ attacking Devouts)

    EDIT: I’m also told by another player the AI never uses Repair Fortification
    EDIT 9 October:
    – attackers walk on fire hex in Magma Forge and hurt themselves while attacking in auto

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 6 months ago by  Hiliadan.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 6 months ago by  Hiliadan.
    #258049

    Hiliadan
    Member

    – Dispel (with the Leader’s CP from outside the battlefield) Stiffen Limb BEFORE using Break Control on it (it should check if a unit in range can do Break Control, or Break Control should have a higher “initiave” than Dispel, which means units with it act first)
    => that’s a pure waste of CP (and mana, and spell casting opportunity)

    #264440

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Trying to spot what we could work on in an tactical AI boost mod… I think these ones are worth investigating:

    – moving near a unit and taking an attack of opportunity by moving to an adjacent hex while engaged to try to flank the enemy… because 1/ you do not flank it when you do that, and 2/ you take an attack of opportunity!!! It’s ok to try this kind of movement to attack a 2nd unit but not if you want to flank the unit you move near to

    Decrease the valuation of flanking if it’s possible. Or increase very slightly the valuation of damage taken?

    TEST ENVIRONMENT: I don’t know, that’s very hard to reproduce, we should try to get a save game and a video when that happens.

    – Casting Slayer’s Doubt (or Stiffen Limb) on a Settler (or Builder for that matter): it’s not going to attack you anyway!

    Remove Settlers and Builders from the list of valid targets (just like Undead can’t be affected by some spells).

    – this one is more complicated but a very very big issue in PBEM: heroes (and other units) use Healing or other healing abilities in a very untimely and unwise manner, very often opening their flank to enemies (like: they move IN FRONT of their ally and literally open their back to their enemies). Two issues here: 1/ healing abilities should receive a lower priority because sometimes the AI prefers to heal rather than attack, even when it could lead to a kill, 2/ the movement should be more clever, to avoid turning your back to enemy units

    The point 1/ should be do-able, but need test to see the result.

    TEST ENVIRONMENT: first a preparatory fight to damage one of your unit. Then the real fight vs 1 Reanimator. Keep your injured unit just out of range at the beginning, then hit the Reanimator for about 20 HP and get your injured unit at range where it could be killed. In theory, without the patch, the Reanimator should heal itself.
    ==> the test map should for instance have 2 human hotseat players so that you can hurt yourself in a controlled environment + 1 independent structure with 1 Reanimator

    – cast Fire Ball repeatedly on walls in siege battles even after one breach was made (casting Fire Balls on walls is a waste of mana overall but it’s even more so when a breach has been made; in my case, it started casting Fire Balls immediately after having cast Blessing of Health, whereas it should have cast Holy War first, as it’s much more useful on 10+ attacking Devouts)

    Motasa already implemented that, see http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/great-game-partly-ruined-by-extremely-poor-ai/page/4/#post-264438
    TEST ENVIRONMENT: city with Wooden Walls, siege with a Leader with Blessing of Health, Holy War, Fireball and many CP and let’s say 5 Cavalry vs 4 Human Archers, 4 Human Longswordsman. Check if the AI does cast Fireball on walls.

    I’m also told by another player the AI never uses Repair Fortification

    Should be easy to change. But then it will cast it vs Flying units… :S
    TEST ENVIRONMENT: city with Leader in, Repair Fortification only. Attack the city with some Wall Crushing units like Trolls.

    – Dispel (with the Leader’s CP from outside the battlefield) Stiffen Limb BEFORE using Break Control on it (it should check if a unit in range can do Break Control, or Break Control should have a higher “initiave” than Dispel, which means units with it act first)

    See if we can raise Break Control’s priority to extremely high. Another option is to prevent AI from using Dispel entirely, might be a good idea, as Motasa did.
    TEST ENVIRONMENT: AI Leader with Dispel, 1 Mystic. You attack with a Necro with Stiffen Limb and some units (to absorb damage, e.g. Trolls), cast Stiffen Limb on the Leader on turn 1. Check that it does Dispel it before Breaking Control.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 3 months ago by  Hiliadan.
    #264449

    RedChameleon
    Member

    TEST ENVIRONMENT: first a preparatory fight to damage one of your unit. Then the real fight vs 1 Reanimator. Keep your injured unit just out of range at the beginning, then hit the Reanimator for about 20 HP and get your injured unit at range where it could be killed. In theory, without the patch, the Reanimator should heal itself.
    ==> the test map should for instance have 2 human hotseat players so that you can hurt yourself in a controlled environment + 1 independent structure with 1 Reanimator

    I did this. So, what happened was I’ve attacked group of re-animator and one pikeman with my stack (Hero with some units). I’ve attacked pikeman with cavalry and made sure pikeman has about half of the health. My cavalry was close to re-animator and it could kill it in one turn. Then, I damaged re-animator with long range units.
    In that scenario re-animator goes for the cavalry and sometimes for the range units if he can kill them on his turn. He is not healing.

    Next going to smack him with magic to see if I can provoke him to heal…Patch 1.23 is installed.

    #264499

    ddnation22
    Member

    My biggest problem with the Tactical combat AI at the moment is it’s tendencies to, as Jolly Joker said, “split itself”. And, in a similar vein, it often miscalculates when it’s “time to leave the walls of the city” as a defender, sacrificing units for no reason that would have been more useful if it just sat back a few turns, letting the ranged hit from the walls.

    #269446

    Hiliadan
    Member

    So what’s in AoW_UnitProperties.rpk? The AI-related stuff are in each abilities’ effect.
    It seems not all abilities have the AI settings, and spells have different AI settings based on their type (e.g. Greater Reawakening has different AI options than the touch ability Touch of Faith for instance). I’ll have to look into this more in details.

    Some entries are also in the units’ rpk.

    Here is a summary: http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/AI#Modding_AI

    Weirdly I haven’t seen any AI behaviours for Steal Enchantment, Call Lightning and other abilities that are considered “cast abilities”. Did I look at the wrong place?

    EDIT: ok and found back the other AI tactical (and strategic) settings in Title.rpk / AoW Global Settings. Tactical is at “Tactical AI Settings”.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by  Hiliadan.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by  Hiliadan.
    #269454

    ddnation22
    Member

    I personally have experienced an AI more proactive in its use of spells, and more likely to use break control / dispel on supports now that I got mods to disable its use of Dispel and Disjunction. Haven’t ever seen the AI even attempt to use Steal Enchantment at this point.

    The AI still LOVES to use Shock missile / death ray type spells on little T1/T2 fodder units. To the point where it will throw entire battles wasting tons of Mana and casting points on something like a dumb little Tigran Shredder 😛

    #269870

    Hiliadan
    Member

    – Casting Slayer’s Doubt (or Stiffen Limb) on a Settler (or Builder for that matter): it’s not going to attack you anyway!

    Same for other attack spells: Root Spears, etc. because that’s wasting mana and CP.

    #270491

    marcuspers1
    Member

    Just had my leader cast “Chant of Unlife” in a 1v1 battle 🙂
    80cp down the drain.

    #270631

    gladis
    Member

    Casting Slayer´s Doubt (in a 1v1) and attacking after the effect has gone.

    #270674

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Apparently the summon spells are not used by the AI in auto:
    – Call Beast Hordes (should definitely be used as there is no “target” hex to choose)
    – Call Ancestral Spirits (probably because the AI would not know WHERE to cast it?)

    #272731

    gladis
    Member

    Just look at this stupid Matriarch which runs around a Golem with Last Stand and then finally attack him, doing 1 Damage in total:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/62o6069fcz5sc4u/Stupid%20Naga%20Matriarch.mp4?dl=0

    I just think of one possibility:
    If she originally wanted to backstab the Hero but when the AI calculated that she doesn´t survive another attack of Opportunity? It was lucky of AI that the 1st Matriarch switched away behind my Hero in the 1st place 😛

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by  gladis.
    #272770

    @ gladis, considering you have 27 defence on that Golem, I’m not entirely there is anything anyone could have done to bring it down….

    #272777

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Autocombat is one thing. But if it comes to improving the AI, I think the part most in need of improving is “logictics”: how does the AI move their troops and – more importantly – how does it END. What must be avoided is leaving chains of units instead of adjacent stacks.
    As it is, the AI makes itself very vulnerable in troop transition, especially when having units with different movement styles and different terrain abilities. That is where the material superiority goes down the drain because it allows piecemeal attacking.

    #273871

    gladis
    Member

    AI doesn´t consider Disgusting Stench:
    It´s now the 2nd time as I fight with an Untouchable and a Hatchling vs another T1.
    1st: Untouchable moves forward and spits at the enemy
    2nd: Hatchlings moves right beside the Untouchable, spits Fire and fumbles
    3rd: Enemy attacks Disgusted Hatchling and does more Damage because of -1 Resistance

    T1 summons shouldn´t be a valid target for Banish as it just wastes the CP and Mana.
    Update the description if you exclude T1.

    AI casts Killer Instinct in a combat which only included Giants, Ogers and a Spy Drone. So no affected unit.

    Units flee from Combat when the only available hex to attack the last unit is on a “fleeing arrow”.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/f7e1cp1m0cyfbdc/AI%20flees%20from%20battle.mp4?dl=0
    Or whatever the reason was. Just really bad.

    AI casts Spider Horde in excess. Even if all attackers are Shadow Stalerks (no webbing, 100% Blight Immunity). It even cast it in a fight Goblin Warg Rider vs 1 Stalker. It´s a waste of 80 CP.

    • This reply was modified 8 months, 1 week ago by  gladis.
    • This reply was modified 8 months, 1 week ago by  gladis.
    • This reply was modified 8 months, 1 week ago by  gladis.
    • This reply was modified 7 months, 1 week ago by  gladis.
    #292275

    gladis
    Member

    Especially the DN´s Empire Upgrade Side Arms are used badly:
    the Cavalry often fires it with low Damage.
    Her you see a Boar Rider which has higehr melee attack than range attack, though he decided to shoot the Hero and didn´t use Charge:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/rg4wj4i5za0wihe/Side%20Arms%20are%20silly.mp4?dl=0

    The hero didn´t had any Frost Aura etc., so no reason to not use Charge..

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