Tigran OP , Dwarves & Stun.

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This topic contains 13 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  Jolly Joker 1 month ago.

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  • #253470

    Lannister
    Member

    Dwarves: Overpowered whenever controlled by the Emperor AI, the cost malus doesn’t really affect emperor much and it spams tough dwarven units anyways like they were Goblin hordes, observable as dwarven emperor AI will often defeat the other emperors AI of a different race.

    Suggestion: Increase dwarf units cost malus for the emperor AI, on a level comparable to what a human player has to suffer.

    Tigran: Too good racial traits translates into overpowered class units(racial units not so much). +1 additional hex is the culprit, the main race malus of -1 res does not balance this out properly, especially not taking into consideration race specials such as pounce and a big spirit res to mitigate the ”orc” weakness, vulnerability to frost isn’t enough either.

    Tigran racial tech tree is also a bit too strong, there is a top one on every tier(except maybe champion). Example: Human Prophet gives a medal, Draconian vision & cheaper tier 3 building + medal, Tigran medal + city 200 happines(Hello?:D), 200 happiness is just insane on top of a medal, a tempel requirement does obviously not balance this out, invigorate is arguable too strong as well.

    Suggestion: Tigran spirit protection reduced to 20% down from 40%, pounce removed from certain class units(berserker! Rant: ffS already got imp wall climb + athletics:D). Tigran Protection economic: Observatory gold reduced to 7 gold(down from 10). Tigran Prophet economic: city happiness bonus reduced to 100(down from 200). Tigran military deity: sprint + 2x chance to crit is already amazing, +1 melee damage is excessive.

    Small note: Tigran Shaman is OP as hell(fun though), nerf bear form a bit.

    Stun(School of enchantment): Has been overpowered since the very beginning(few people will deny this), the % stun chance is set way too high no matter the research cost. Stun in general(spells, elementals etc) is also imbalanced(goes for most cc effects, inflict frost etc), i suppose it’s acceptable for melee units, ranged not so much.

    Suggestion: Reduce the % chance of being stunned, either directly or connected to range/line of sight penalties. Compensate the sorc class/other units elsewhere if necessary.

    Subforum(balance) seems dead, posting here instead.

    #253476

    NINJEW
    Member

    the thing about lategame dwarves is that while their stats are good, their lategame class units aren’t that much to write home about. for example, while defensive strike on manticores is good, the pounce+movement on tigran manticores is quite a bit better. dwarf deathbringers and succubi have no additional abilities beyond baseline, dwarf shamans just gain armored, and dwarf exalted just get a shield.

    Tigrans are certainly a top class competitive race, though since it’s always the exact same play with them it’s questionable how much is due to tigrans in general and how much is just some specific problem spots. the two biggest problems they have in competitive mp is the governance 1 settler discount (big deal in the settler spam meta) and pouncing manticores being able to perform turn 1 combat snipes. outside of the pounce+flying+t4 damage manticore wombo combo, i don’t think their racial traits are terribly unbalanced. -1 res is actually a pretty big deal, due to how multi-channel damage and flank attacks work. in practice they’re actually surprisingly fragile.

    i’ve never actually seen someone complain about tigran’s racial governance outside of the settler spam one. the key point you’re missing with the prophet example is that humans get an additional medal and also have access to an evolving racial unit, and on top of that the human economic upgrade is kind of absurd in its own right (+15 production per production building, which equals +45 production on a city with master’s guild). a case could be made for lategame tigrans being able to get cheapo exalted and lesser shadow stalkers, though i’d say discounted knights are a much more enticing option than either of those, and isn’t class specific. the gold from observatories is probably better than most RG2 economic options, but i don’t think putting a -3 on that is going to make a big difference honestly (tigran do already get +3 gold in every city, afterall. having extra gold to work with is kind of a Thing for them). deity upgrades are all pretty disgusting to be honest, i can’t say +1 damage is really breaking the bank when you’re comparing it to “+1 in every stat” (humans) or “remove the race’s main weakness, then throw 20% physical resistance on top of that” (orcs) or “every support has frost aura now” {frostlings). genuinely, if we want to talk about deity level RG balance, the frostling one is pretty far and away the best (it’s absolutely disgusting on frostsorc. just beyond gross)

    tigran shaman has actually already seen quite a few nerfs. the fact that it’s an additional 30 production over normal shamans, and that outside of tigran bears, shamans don’t really see much use in mp, are i think the current deciding factors on its balance.

    stun is a weird status ailment in that it totally wrecks shop against lower tier armies, but once you get to the t3/t4 stage of the game it’s quite a bit less dominant. once every unit has enough res to weather a few salvos of stun attacks, the effectiveness of carrying around a bunch of units that are otherwise only t2 in strength goes down pretty fast. sorcerer in general i’d say is probably the class in the game most in need of an additional balance pass/core mechanical shakeup, but that kind of thing is very unlikely to happen. griffith’s mp balance mod gives school of enchantment a -1 strength to its stuns and gives school of teleportation a buff, which is a pretty good bandaid on the larger problem with stuns.

    in general, this game isn’t really getting balance patches anymore (it was excellently supported for a very long time, but triumph is a relatively small studio and have to put their manpower towards their next moneymaking project now), so most balance discussion is probably more relevant for balance mods than the general game. the PBEM balance mod in particular gets the lions share of balance talk, and it’s the closest to a SP focused balancing experience you’ll get, so maybe play around with that and then talk to hiliadan about your concerns.

    there was a recent patch that added a little additional water content and did some balance stuff, but the balance was mostly addressing the longstanding PBEM conversion problem which has probably consumed the forum multiple times by this point, and they were relatively minor changes, so i’d say we’re still definitely well past the point of stat-tweaking balance changes.

    #253498

    Lannister
    Member

    the thing about lategame dwarves is that while their stats are good, their lategame class units aren’t that much to write home about. for example, while defensive strike on manticores is good, the pounce+movement on tigran manticores is quite a bit better. dwarf deathbringers and succubi have no additional abilities beyond baseline, dwarf shamans just gain armored, and dwarf exalted just get a shield.

    Dwarven Manticores also get a shield, on top of a +1 def + 1 res(+2 compared to tigran) they are really tough. I think how the AI handles units(suicide flanking) is why generally dwarven units win, pounce+ athletics is of course insane on manticores(nerf :D) but the AI is too primitive to really utilize it well. Exalted is the perfect example , +1 def + shield turns a regular 11 def exalted into a 12/14 def exalted, that makes a big difference in AI vs AI fights they way they handle units.

    Tigrans are certainly a top class competitive race, though since it’s always the exact same play with them it’s questionable how much is due to tigrans in general and how much is just some specific problem spots. the two biggest problems they have in competitive mp is the governance 1 settler discount (big deal in the settler spam meta) and pouncing manticores being able to perform turn 1 combat snipes. outside of the pounce+flying+t4 damage manticore wombo combo, i don’t think their racial traits are terribly unbalanced. -1 res is actually a pretty big deal, due to how multi-channel damage and flank attacks work. in practice they’re actually surprisingly fragile.

    The warlord class highligts the imbalance part more than other classes due to each class unit being racial one( no summons, machines). It’s not game breaking but overall they have been gifted with too many trait goodies, a small nerf is justifiable IMO. Pounce removed from certain class units and make the -res malus more pronounced by reducing that spirit prot a bit, that’s a fair trade-off for athletics, stuff like predator is just icing on cake.

    tigran shaman has actually already seen quite a few nerfs. the fact that it’s an additional 30 production over normal shamans, and that outside of tigran bears, shamans don’t really see much use in mp, are i think the current deciding factors on its balance.

    I see your point but i still think they’re insane compared to other shamans, they’re clearly overpowered ability-wise however this might not be an issue at all in MP, i don’t play enough arch druid to know. At least the way i see it the extra production cost doesn’t change much in practice since shamans are typically produced in 2 turns anyways, the baseline shaman is still a costly 160 production, but the utility gained from dire-bear/heal is quite something.

    in general, this game isn’t really getting balance patches anymore (it was excellently supported for a very long time, but triumph is a relatively small studio and have to put their manpower towards their next moneymaking project now), so most balance discussion is probably more relevant for balance mods than the general game. the PBEM balance mod in particular gets the lions share of balance talk, and it’s the closest to a SP focused balancing experience you’ll get, so maybe play around with that and then talk to hiliadan about your concerns.

    there was a recent patch that added a little additional water content and did some balance stuff, but the balance was mostly addressing the longstanding PBEM conversion problem which has probably consumed the forum multiple times by this point, and they were relatively minor changes, so i’d say we’re still definitely well past the point of stat-tweaking balance changes.

    Yes you’re of course right, i think the game is overall in a good balanced shape(considered how complex it is). Apart from maybe school of enchantment(stuns) nothing is really that significant or can’t be beaten with a little strategy, still stuff like Tigran traits are a bit annyoing to me, i can’t help as an experienced strategy gamer to notice how easy they play compared to most other races and snowball into an unstoppable force, devs were a bit to generous when designing Tigrans. IMO athletics should never have been given as a racial trait, it’s hard to balance.

    #253501

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I’d simply suggest that you make a personal mod or use a mod that comes close to your personal idea of the game.
    For example, I have modded Pounce out of Tigran Berserkers and Manticores, based on the fact that I have a hard time to imagine a unit with both Charge AND Pounce – although it’s still possible with the Warlord Heroes’ Charge Command to have units that can do both Charge and Pounce.

    What is a bit, well, awkward is maybe the right word, is the fact that I think, while a lot of balance changes have been made over time, these balance changes have not been transferred into AI evaluation.
    Example: Initially Whispers of the Fallen was a Necro spell purely for garnering information; naturally, this was reflected in “AI priority”, giving it either low or medium (I don’t know which anymore), correctly. However, when Whispers was changed into gaining research points as well, the spell got a lot more useful, but AFAIK AI priority didn’t change at all.

    So the thing needed mostly is a general re-evaluation of AI priorities – and that is not only true for Singleplayer, it is also true for all forms of MP and PBEM, because AI behavior is relevant in all of those, at least on the battlefield.

    #253502

    Hiliadan
    Member

    So the thing needed mostly is a general re-evaluation of AI priorities – and that is not only true for Singleplayer, it is also true for all forms of MP and PBEM, because AI behavior is relevant in all of those, at least on the battlefield.

    That’s probably true but it’s very hard or even impossible for non-modders to know what are the current priorities and thus which ones need to be changed!
    I did report some stuff the AI should not do in auto but it seemed it was only things we could not fix with mod tools: http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/some-stupid-things-the-ai-do-in-auto-combat-and-that-would-need-fix/

    Check out the Wiki for a lot of very good data about AoW3!
    The mod you really need to improve your AoW3 experience: the balance mod and the video presenting it
    And last but not least, check out the Battlefield.com/AoW3 the community website for AoW3

    #253520

    NINJEW
    Member

    my udnerstanding of the AI wrt abilities is that ability usage rates aren’t hardcoded in: the AI actually reads the effects of the abilities and tries to determine itself if those effects are worthwhile, rather than some system where whispers is given a ahrdcoded priority

    this is why there aren’t many spells in the game that have both a downside and an upside (the only one i can think of offhand is stone skin), because the AI has a hard time figuring out when is a good time to use those moves. some spells are also stronger than originally designed because of this: stat maluses were added to skin of oil, because if the effect was only “-100% fire resistance” then the AI can’t figure out when is a good time to use that, because elemental resistances can be fairly situational (while stat maluses never are. so currently the AI uses skin of oil to reduce enemy resistance, and as a “happy accident” when the AI is playing draconian or something it does even more damage)

    I see your point but i still think they’re insane compared to other shamans, they’re clearly overpowered ability-wise however this might not be an issue at all in MP, i don’t play enough arch druid to know. At least the way i see it the extra production cost doesn’t change much in practice since shamans are typically produced in 2 turns anyways, the baseline shaman is still a costly 160 production, but the utility gained from dire-bear/heal is quite something.

    my point was that the problem might be less “tigran shamans are OP” so much as “every shaman except the tigran shaman is UP.” also i dunno what crazy lategame maps you’re playing on where you just assume that a tigran AD city has at least 95 production. shamans are most frequently 3turned.

    The warlord class highligts the imbalance part more than other classes due to each class unit being racial one( no summons, machines). It’s not game breaking but overall they have been gifted with too many trait goodies, a small nerf is justifiable IMO. Pounce removed from certain class units and make the -res malus more pronounced by reducing that spirit prot a bit, that’s a fair trade-off for athletics, stuff like predator is just icing on cake.

    i mean in competitive multiplayer you never see non-warlord tigrans, except for the occasional rogue play (where they’re competing with the actually pretty good draconian rogues). frostlings and draconians have a lockdown on sorc, AD is either humans or elves, i’m not too sure what the usual necro race is, theo doesn’t see much use (i’d guess orc or dwarf if someone was going to use it), dread doesn’t see much use (but if you were going to use it, human and dwarf are undeniably the best options), even with warlord they’re competing with humans (also have a settler spam RG, have a healing support, +10 production is very good, devastating charge manticores are the runner up for best manticore alphastrike, knights are very very good and can be evolved for cheap). actually, they’re competing with halfling warlord in unmodded as well. outside of the brief period in which the Shaman Missile Crisis was a thing, i don’t think tigran-anything besides warlord has ever been a favored pick.

    i dunno how much this applies to PBEM, which is going to more closely mirror the SP experience, but that’s my understanding of the situation.

    #253521

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Check the stats from the latest completed live MP duel tournament: https://www.the-battlefield.com/aow3/index.php?page=ladderstats&tourneyid=3 Tigran is indeed mostly Warlord (7 out of 12).

    For PBEM, that’s quite different. The general live MP + PBEM meta (but with about 5/7 matches PBEM and 2/7 live MP) has 33 Warlord Tigrans out of a total of 146 Tigrans https://www.the-battlefield.com/aow3/index.php?page=ladderstats

    Check out the Wiki for a lot of very good data about AoW3!
    The mod you really need to improve your AoW3 experience: the balance mod and the video presenting it
    And last but not least, check out the Battlefield.com/AoW3 the community website for AoW3

    #253523

    Lannister
    Member

    my point was that the problem might be less “tigran shamans are OP” so much as “every shaman except the tigran shaman is UP.” also i dunno what crazy lategame maps you’re playing on where you just assume that a tigran AD city has at least 95 production. shamans are most frequently 3turned.

    Since when is 95 prod city crazy lategame or even considered hard to achieve? =) Unless of course you plan to build shamans in every city 1-2 cities should not have a big problem with this number by the time shamans are available for production, as i only play arch druid once in a blue moon i don’t really know how much of a ”spam” shaman prod is.

    What is a bit, well, awkward is maybe the right word, is the fact that I think, while a lot of balance changes have been made over time, these balance changes have not been transferred into AI evaluation.
    Example: Initially Whispers of the Fallen was a Necro spell purely for garnering information; naturally, this was reflected in “AI priority”, giving it either low or medium (I don’t know which anymore), correctly. However, when Whispers was changed into gaining research points as well, the spell got a lot more useful, but AFAIK AI priority didn’t change at all.

    So the thing needed mostly is a general re-evaluation of AI priorities – and that is not only true for Singleplayer, it is also true for all forms of MP and PBEM, because AI behavior is relevant in all of those, at least on the battlefield

    Good point.

    #253525

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    For the record: Tigran Necromancer is pretty cool. Spirit resistance is what the Doc prescribes, while Cold vulnerability doesn’t really factor in, and with Necro delivering all regeneration via Heal Undead you circumvent the usual fragility of Tigrans, often resulting in “fatigue” when playing classes without early healing powers.

    #253527

    Lannister
    Member

    i mean in competitive multiplayer you never see non-warlord tigrans, except for the occasional rogue play (where they’re competing with the actually pretty good draconian rogues). frostlings and draconians have a lockdown on sorc, AD is either humans or elves, i’m not too sure what the usual necro race is, theo doesn’t see much use (i’d guess orc or dwarf if someone was going to use it), dread doesn’t see much use (but if you were going to use it, human and dwarf are undeniably the best options), even with warlord they’re competing with humans (also have a settler spam RG, have a healing support, +10 production is very good, devastating charge manticores are the runner up for best manticore alphastrike, knights are very very good and can be evolved for cheap). actually, they’re competing with halfling warlord in unmodded as well. outside of the brief period in which the Shaman Missile Crisis was a thing, i don’t think tigran-anything besides warlord has ever been a favored pick.

    i dunno how much this applies to PBEM, which is going to more closely mirror the SP experience, but that’s my understanding of the situation.

    A fair point, however this doesn’t mean Tigran aren’t a bit overpowered trait-wise nor does it invalidate my previous point regarding this. Certain class units such as longbow hunters most likely means High elves is the top pick for the class, no matter if the Tigran traits generally are better than High elves the optimal choice would still be High elves. This is true for every class, synergies and special abilities(such as longbows). For example humans/dwarves would obviously be better Dreadnoughts than Tigrans because of their armored nature and synergies with the class, but a small nerf can still be justifiable for Tigrans. In pvp people will try to optimize as much as possible whereas in singleplayer it’s more typical to play whatever you like the most(aesthetics, rp) but this could still apply in MP affecting statistics(third, fourth picks etc). The way i see it is that Tigrans, even when selected for a none optimal class is still a considerable threat and easier than average to play(this is non-fixable due to athletics and how strong it is). The one race i see surpass them in this regard is human, but for a different reason, natural versatility, however it’s certainly possible that humans have been a bit overbuffed in the expansions.

    The warlord class is pretty unique in the sense that each class unit is benefiting from racial traits, thus Tigran stand out. If you think about it carefully, the other Warlord top picks(human, halfling, elf etc) all have something in common, cavalry as special race units naturally synergistic with the class, even so Tigran stand out. Age of wonders 3 has been designed for every race to have a strong pick, it’s inevitable, however i really don’t think this should be a reason not to compare races directly in a none-class context. If one race is allowered to be a bit overpowered due how Age of wonders 3 has been designed with classes in mind, then in my opinion that raises a different kind of question, especially regarding future titles that may follow this system.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Lannister.
    #253529

    NINJEW
    Member

    Since when is 95 prod city crazy lategame or even considered hard to achieve? =) Unless of course you plan to build shamans in every city 1-2 cities should not have a big problem with this number by the time shamans are available for production, as i only play arch druid once in a blue moon i don’t really know how much of a ”spam” shaman prod is.

    for a town sized city, 95 requires a master’s guild + very happy. this cost may lower if the city has production nodes, but it’s not something i’d just assume as a given for a non-dreadnaught. while it’s not hard to achieve, the usefulness of that is somewhat questionable compared against the gold cost. the more general play would be to have 3 or 4 cities capable of 3 turning shamans, over 2 cities capable of 2turning them. (or just take 2 cities 3turning them. outside of tigran shamans, there’s really not much reason to have a ton of shamans since their main role is supporting your animals anyway). all a shaman requires is a dolmen, so it’s not like other class’ units where access is particularly expensive.

    production is a resource that lets you spend faster, and investing in it isn’t even always helpful for that (you have to be hitting production thresholds, or else that expensive master’s guild achieves literally nothing for you. imagine building a master’s guild, only to find yourself at 94 production…). of course, the difference between 3turning and 2turning, or 2turning and 1turning a unit is pretty huge, so production is by no means not worth investing in, you just have to have a very specific reason for doing so outside of the starting builder’s hall. at the end of the day, 8 cities with 40 production each still gets you 8 shamans in 4 turns, which is to say 2 shamans a turn. so it’s often more useful to parallelize your production if having a ton of something is what you want (and, again, unless you’re playing as tigrans you don’t even necessarily want a ton of shamans).

    Check the stats from the latest completed live MP duel tournament: https://www.the-battlefield.com/aow3/index.php?page=ladderstats&tourneyid=3 Tigran is indeed mostly Warlord (7 out of 12).

    For PBEM, that’s quite different. The general live MP + PBEM meta (but with about 5/7 matches PBEM and 2/7 live MP) has 33 Warlord Tigrans out of a total of 146 Tigrans https://www.the-battlefield.com/aow3/index.php?page=ladderstats

    these stats are pretty interesting. i’d love to be able to examine these in bargraph form, or some other visual representation.

    it would appear that tigrans have the highest winrates in both charts, though it’s the live MP one that’s truly dominating, and that’s probably more off the back of tigrans being the best at cityspam + pouncing manticores than any other specific tigran racial traits. the general rate of 69% is still fairly high though, and does suggest an imbalance.

    i wish i could see what the win percentage for tigrans is in PBEM only, but all i’m seeing is a hilarious “3900%” winrate (it would appear that the “total games played” stat is broken, since every x vs all statistic has 1 representing the “all”)

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  NINJEW.
    #253531

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I can’t understand that you play MP with Pouncing Tigran Berserkers and Manticores (and with Stun-Inflicting Elven Manticores as well). Pretty out of this world, if you ask me.

    #253550

    NINJEW
    Member

    i can’t believe that people regularly play with map settings that promote cityspam either. playing under other settings removes the manticores out of the equation, at least. pouncing berserkers are still a thing, but unlike manticores i don’t think they can turn 1 herosnipe so it’s still certainly an improvement. i imagine a turn 25 tigran berserker army still gets destroyed by an equivalent strength sorc army with phantasms and stuns, and a fast assassin strat still runs circles around them.

    more realistically though: people often don’t play with that. griffith’s mp mod is pretty popular, and it moves pounce on both berserkers and manticores to bronze level, which dulls the problem quite a bit.

    it also makes eagle riders not get affected by thoroughbred mounts, for the other mass flying cavalry ultra alphastrike warlord strat that no one seems to bring up here.

    #253561

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Well, the thing is, *I* at least found a couple of Warlord things OP, (Death March among them, Thoroughbred Mounts on a couple of units as well…), but then everyone has that kind of stuff, and in the end it’s just a question of who can make use of their neutron bomb first and most effective.
    I had more than only a few games that were decided by the lay of the land – you always have a town of your race near, for example, but if there#s a line of rapids between you and it, you may have a problem.
    I also had a problem last time I played Arch Druid – no Mana Node in starting village OR vicinity, so not only no additional mana income, but also no easy to reach mana via exploration. It’s a said AD that doesn’t have the means to summon a couple of animals.

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