Triumph Studios joins forces with Paradox Interactive!

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Triumph Studios joins forces with Paradox Interactive!

This topic contains 108 replies, has 47 voices, and was last updated by  Florin1980 3 months, 1 week ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 61 through 90 (of 109 total)
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  • #254625

    Gloweye
    Member

    I’m not particularly worried about “dumbing down” since even simplified Pdx grand strategy games are still quite a bit more complex than AoW (I don’t mean this derisively) but the overall content and expansion policy could very much become dictated by Pdx.

    Define complex ?

    There’s a much more complex strategic playing field in for example CK2, but AoW makes up for it with a complexity resulting from the interaction of simple parts in combat. Which is the better kind of complex. As in, easy to learn, hard to master. In CK2, there doesn’t seem to be much difference between learning and mastering once you know the way to do it.

    Haven’t played other paradox games, but that’s just what comes to mind with me. AoW got simple mechanics with complex interaction, CK2 got complex mechanics that don’t interact.

    #254628

    Define complex?

    With the AoW series I can just pick up and play it without hassle (even when the game is new to me), with Pdx games I can’t. I’d have to spend hours watching let’s plays and staring into the screen before figuring out the basics. It’s not always the same, Stellaris has been pretty easy but I’ve never mustered the patience for the likes of EU or CK (the family trees alone make my head hurt). Some people have played EU4 for hundreds of hours and still don’t understand its trade system for example.

    Mathematics of AoW are much, much easier to cope with imo but hey, maybe AoW is equally complicated but for some reason my brain’s just wired for it.

    TLDR, one is easy for me to figure out, the other is not.

    In any case, like I said, I meant no offense by it.

    #254631

    maybe AoW is equally complicated but for some reason my brain’s just wired for it.

    Mine too. I had to watch a tutorial to figure out how to start CK2. Imho that’s not good complexity, infact imho it’s downright bad design.

    N ow AoW3 isn’t necessarily easy for beginners to pick up, but then again I suppose it depends on your background. My gf plays boardgames with me and Candy Crush, so AoW3 was a huge leapup for her (I used her to beta test the tutorial lol).

    However, the moving parts are fairly simple:

    1 – what’s your city/ what are your cities doing?
    2 – where are your units
    3 – how to fight

    I think anyone can figure out left click select and right click send (that said some people didn’t like the change).

    Imho this opens the game up to exploring the synergies, as in:

    realisationj number 1 – Humans start with extra production

    #2..Warlords have discounts

    #3 Human Cavalry evolve…

    result – Human Warlord evolving cavalry strat is a doable thing…

    I got the EU4 demo and just couldn’t get into it. No clue what was happening and no desire to invest time watching things to get a handle.

    Stellaris was much easier imho to get into, but then again I did watch the blorg videos…

    #254635

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Warlock is a “simple” Paradox game as well.

    In fact, the “complex” Paradoc games are SIMULATIONS. Toys to reenact history and change it assuming you are at the helm.

    AoW(3) is completely different, because it’s not a simulation.

    #254636

    Athei
    Member

    Congrats!

    I’m having nerdgasm right now! I love both Paradox and Triumph and I’m really happy with this union. Infact the only game I don’t like is Warlock(s), because I love AoW and Warlock always felt inferior to me.

    #254638

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    That’s because Warlock is a totally different game, more like Fallen Enchantress, that is, more on the empire-building side.

    In the end, the difference is in micro-managing military and battles or empire-building, that is, towns, research, and economy.

    #254641

    Motasa
    Member

    Mathematics of AoW are much, much easier to cope with imo

    I concur. I love the fact i can number crunch in Age of Wonders. This can not be said about the majority of strategy games with all those random numbers thrown in the UI and pop up screens and math that doesn’t make much sense or even conceals it from the player as to make it seem the game is very “complex”. Hate it when I can’t do the calculations myself and I have to search for the hidden values and formulas a game uses to calculate damage, income, etc. etc.

    Concerning the new game… is Michiel van den Bos on board for your next title? I mean, he’s been a huge part of your previous games, AoW 1, Overlord, Overlord 2, AoW 3… I almost instantly thought it as a given he’d be around this time when you announced you’re working on a new project, but it isn’t confirmed yet. Guess we’ll have to wait and see. 😐

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 4 months ago by  Motasa.
    #254645

    Sengsara
    Member

    This is.. Unfortunate. You can hold out all the hope and revel in all of the positive thinking you like, by all means, ignore the historical outcome of every “merger” (assimilation) that has taken place in the video game industry. I will not hold out hope for you Triumph, You have drank a slow but lethal poison.

    Age of Wonders 3 will not die with you however, the modding community will see to that, even if it means evolving it on the aspiration of the people who enjoy the game.

    #254654

    Fenraellis
    Member

    It also means they’ve seen secret project X AND THEY LIKE IT!

    If they like it though then it’s probably not stripper tycoon.

    But who wouldn’t like Stripper Tycoon? I still hold hope!

    —–

    Re: Paradox appreciation or lack thereof:
    Well, I, too, admit to some concern if they intend to implement any of their standard business and development model. Aside from that, all else being equal, there is no direct denying that access to more funds could very well result in the same game released more quickly, or even a more expanded version of what might have been, released at the same relative time.

    I have derived some enjoyment from some of the Paradox-developed titles, but the sheer quantity of piecemeal dlcs for many of them, is certainly often a turnoff. Coherent combined content expansions has always been a preferred game model for me, personally. Yes, you don’t get to pick and choose, like the mass-DLC model(an admitted potential advantage of the model), but the content itself is both often more cohesive in concept/theme, but is also often better development tested to function effectively together.

    As with some few here, I tentatively remain cautiously optimistic. It’s entirely possible this will remain primarily a Developer + Publisher relationship, rather than the Developer + Meddler relationship that many people have sourly predicted. The team from Triumph Studios, I have full appreciation for, and I hope it gets to remain that way. That is to say, that the team(s) working on their project(s) remain under their domain.

    —–

    overlorddarkslash, please refrain from all of the vitriol. While I realize that you feel the need to defend the company and/or their practices, and I can respect that, you only hurt your arguments with the intense argumentative attitude, and persistent name calling.

    For what it’s worth, I acknowledge that a few people also have done the same in return, and in general I would point out a reminder to people. Attack the argument, not the person, but also realize when the person across from you refuses to be convinced otherwise… Anyway, seeing as how none of those arguing are actually directly involved in the companies, and likely(*) not directly involved in the industry, can we please stop cluttering the thread everyone that’s arguing?

    #254662

    overlorddarkslash, please refrain from all of the vitriol. While I realize that you feel the need to defend the company and/or their practices, and I can respect that, you only hurt your arguments with the intense argumentative attitude, and persistent name calling.

    I was already far to tired and busy to continue this useless and fruitless discusion, also the reason why got severly depresed last time i spoke her and i rather spent my energy there then convincing the short sighted fools other people voicing their own opinion.

    what i will do is bookmark this topic, and when age of wonders 4/ other new paradox X Triumph game will be released i will make a topic on the respective forum, and bash every single haters his/her/it face in with the fact that everything turned out fine.

    all those lovely people, can be sure of that. so please look forward to this memborable moment where you can tell your childeren and grand childeren about the day you fucked up faltered in your trust in the developer you like and respect.

    because in the end, you are not hating on paradox, you are hating on triumph and their decision they made by trusting paradox. and how can you even call yourself a fan of an developer if you cant trust them in their desisions and hope for the best hmmm?

    #254667

    Rhaeg
    Member

    <very hard to comprehend 1st paragraph due too many spelling errors>

    what i will do is bookmark this topic, and when age of wonders 4/ other new paradox X Triumph game will be released i will make a topic on the respective forum, and bash every single haters his/her/it face in with the fact that everything turned out fine.

    <bla>

    I actually think that the Triumph/AOW forum is usually extremely polite (a lot more so than most other gaming forums I’ve seen) and apart from one or two exceptions people have been very polite in stating their concerns here in this thread as well. One of those exceptions, and also the biggest one, is clearly yourself alas and now we already know that the future forum thread you mention will be as toxic as is your posting here.

    My personal opinion on Paradox btw is that I know they used to make great games, but after HOI2/EU3 I didn’t play any of them for a long time. The main reason for that was simply that I do not buy a lot of games but play the ones I do buy a lot and I spent my time on other companies’ games. I did see however that in the meanwhile they made some games with huge piles of dlc, many of which appear to have flimsy content but still require you to fork over a chunk of money that I’d have a problem with. I’ve read some games would cost you a few hundred bucks if you wanted to buy all content created for them and that’s just crazy if a lot of the content is just a few cosmetic upgrades and such. That is not something I look forward to if it would replace the 2 meaty expansions we got for AOW3.

    I can say however that I recently bought Paradox’ space game Stellaris and I’ve enjoyed it quite a bit. I have mixed feelings about the DLC. The quality is average to good, but most of it I find very overpriced:

    http://store.steampowered.com/app/281990/Stellaris/

    Utopia is a good update, but IMO not worth 20 euros at all if I compare its contents to some DLC of other games I’ve been playing. 8 euros for the plantoid species pack which basically contains some artwork and a few new ship models is something I find completely over the top. On the other hand, Stellaris also gets quite a bit of Free LC and I like how they post almost weekly dev blogs showing clearly the direction in which they want to take the game. All in all I have neutral to positive feelings about Stellaris: good game with some DLC that’s too expensive. Could be worse though and if this is the direction AOW4 DLC will look like I wouldn’t be super happy about it but still support it. It’s as far as I’d be willing to go though.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 4 months ago by  Rhaeg.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 4 months ago by  Rhaeg.
    #254676

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Truth is, people have lost faith in publishers acquiring developers in general after what Electronic Arts did to Origin, Westwood, and Bullfrog. With that being the case, people are going to judge publishers based on their own perception of the publisher…

    …and there are clearly people whose perceptions of Paradox, particularly its DLC strategy, are negative.

    It’s understandable that people will be concerned. There’s also an element that expressing concern is one of the ways that players can send a message that they don’t want something… and might be willing to vote with their wallet should that something happen. I’m sure everyone’s hoping that things will work out well in the end, but people who have concerns have a right to express them – and a reasonable publisher (or developer) would surely prefer people who have concerns to express them so that the company can take them into account rather than have a surprise failure should people decide to vote with their wallet.

    #254677

    Low_K
    Member

    I was already far to tired and busy to continue this useless and fruitless discusion, also the reason why got severly depresed last time i spoke her and i rather spent my energy there then convincing the short sighted fools other people voicing their own opinion.

    what i will do is bookmark this topic, and when age of wonders 4/ other new paradox X Triumph game will be released i will make a topic on the respective forum, and bash every single haters his/her/it face in with the fact that everything turned out fine.

    all those lovely people, can be sure of that. so please look forward to this memborable moment where you can tell your childeren and grand childeren about the day you fucked up faltered in your trust in the developer you like and respect.

    because in the end, you are not hating on paradox, you are hating on triumph and their decision they made by trusting paradox. and how can you even call yourself a fan of an developer if you cant trust them in their desisions and hope for the best hmmm?

    Oh please, I could cope with the fact that you played your Overlord role with much enthusiasm in the old days, but this post is really out of bounds. You could reply to criticism in a civil way instead of your name-calling (even if you put lines through it).

    You cannot blame people for distrusting Paradox. Their track record is not flawless, far from it, and usually small companies, like Triumph, suffer when Large bullies acquire them. Look back in history and see all the small game-companies who were swallowed by a big player only to go defunct quickly soon after.

    Like I said in my previous post, I can imagine a small company cannot survive easy in the current environment where a few big players have all the power, but judging on history the future doesn’t look too bright for Triumph. You really think Paradox would agree with the fact that Triumph postpones a game because they want to iron out some bugs or add some features, as they did with AoW 3? No, Paradox states a release date and will shove it up our behinds if the game is completed/bug-free or not. You think paradox would allow Triumph to release two big expansions, as they did with AoW 3? Ofcourse not, instead they would demand Triumph sells maps and maybe one new skin for €9,99 and that times 10. Then a bigger expansion for €29,99 followed by more useless DLC for the aforementioned €9,99. All companies have this mechanic and you can argue all you want about keeping the funds flowing, but those DLC’s are juts simple cash-grabs.

    So please tone down and go watch some of that Anime stuff and come back when you are back to normal and can behave like a civilized person. As Rhaeg said, this forum has always been polite and friendly, please keep it this way.

    Kind regards,
    Low

    #254682

    Gloweye
    Member

    I would like to remind people that so far, everything from official sources we have seems to indicate a dev/publisher type relationship, even if one is owned by the other. Paradox might have some questionable decisions with DLC’s and such, but judging by the relative success of AoW compared to whatever-their-version-was, they obviously hope to get some talent and experience in making AoW-type games. It wouldn’t make sense to buy that talent, and then demand those people to not use their talent. If they thought they knew better, they’d have never bought Triumph.

    #254686

    Plus Triumph is imho a golden goose…and if Paradox have any sense they’ll do what I understand Notch did, basically fund the project and shut the hell up.

    And he more than got his money back afaik.

    I am staying positive in the meantime because if Triumph maintain the vision and organisation and attitude (there were some features for eternal lords that got cut because they just weren’t fun, whereas I get the impression with stellaris that they shoehorned loads of things in there that should have been cut, or better polished etc) and Paradox provide the funding we could end up with something beautiful.

    Imagine the Triumph team being tasked to remake Knights of Honour (a paradox property iirc) or something like Sacrifice, or Overlord, or AoW4 (with genuinely simultaneous combat! And a learning AI, or a taught one, by which I mean the game/team analyses what we players do to abuse the combat and strategic system and then Grand Goblin Tombles and his minions get to program counters to common Human tactics, and that’s what your patches get you…)

    It *could* be glorious…

    Anyway, talking about forumites, where is Epaminondas? I’d love to know his thoughts…

    #254690

    Taykor
    Member

    what i will do is bookmark this topic, and when age of wonders 4/ other new paradox X Triumph game will be released i will make a topic on the respective forum, and bash every single haters his/her/it face in with the fact that everything turned out fine.

    Sorry, but you have already failed at that. =) Even if this would turn ok, this doesn’t make anything you’ve wrote right and Paradox any better. They are already trash company. What remains to be seen is whether they corrupt Triumph too, or not.

    because in the end, you are not hating on paradox, you are hating on triumph and their decision they made by trusting paradox. and how can you even call yourself a fan of an developer if you cant trust them in their desisions and hope for the best hmmm?

    Who is calling himself a fan? Why would you think this of me?! I’m not calling myself a fan of anything. I am strongly convinced that fanaticism is really unhealthy.

    #254691

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Imagine the Triumph team being tasked to remake Knights of Honour (a paradox property iirc) or something like Sacrifice, or Overlord, or AoW4

    Didn’t recognise KoH, so I did a bit of digging…

    Paradox published it in NA, but only in NA – the developer used different publishers in EU and AU. Said developer has gone through a few acquisitions, but is now a Creative Assembly subsidiary. So I’d guess that’s where that particular property has ended up.

    Personally, I think I’d rather Triumph focused on developing their own property. Sequels by third-party developers tend to be disappointing, and while Triumph can probably pull it off, I think they’re better off focusing on their own franchises.

    #254696

    Personally, I think I’d rather Triumph focused on developing their own property. Sequels by third-party developers tend to be disappointing, and while Triumph can probably pull it off, I think they’re better off focusing on their own franchises.

    Fair enough. Anyway, the concept was pretty straight forward. You had 12 Knight positions to fill and you needed Knights to construct/develop a province, recruit and lead armies, spy, and engage in commerce, but each Knight could do just one.

    So, if you filled it up economically, you would have no military capacity, but if you maxed your military, your economy would tank. You needed spies for espionage and counter espionage etc.

    It wasn’t a particularly complex game but the moving parts fit together very well.

    Anyway, “remake” can mean 3rd party sequel, but also make a game in the vein of…

    #254699

    Prodigal Sun
    Member

    Oh man this is good stuff!

    I hope they will be allowed to maintain their creative approach while not having to worry about the economic aspect as much. 🙂

    #254726

    SikBok
    Keymaster

    Define complex ?

    I find this articles describes the depth vs complexity trade-off nicely.
    Design 101: Complexity vs. Depth

    #254727

    Gloweye
    Member

    Define complex ?

    I find this articles describes the depth vs complexity trade-off nicely.
    Design 101: Complexity vs. Depth

    Exactly my debate of intention. CK2 has loads of comprehensive complexity (Government, culture, religion, plots, pope favors, title tier, dynasty, combat, wars-needing-CB) and tracking complexity (couple thousand NPC’s, all of them having a number of the above along with traits and opinions), but not much depth complexity (There’s at most one choice of government, culture and religion can be switched but often takes a generation, plots have straight plot power and battles have easy numbers, title tier is pretty straight forward, dynasty never changes). However, most of these interact not at all or very little (the only intersections of faith and combat are Holy Orders/the very rare papal sanctioned invasions. Culture does basically nothing except for some opinion modifier and very rare abilities for certain cultures. Only interaction between faith and wars is the Holy Wars/Crusades. There’s no interaction between the entire sets of faith, culture, dynasty and title tiers.).

    My first experience playing Ck2 was looking at the interface for 5 hours straight talking about it with a veteran.

    While AoW has some comprehensive complexity (resource management, elemental damage types, city production trees, unit stats, flanking) and some tracking complexity (where are my armies, what’s my gold at compared to my upkeep, how developed are my cities) and loads of depth complexity (unit stat interactions, setting up flanks, changing build strat to better counter enemy, How to tactical combat, ranged vs cavalry vs infantry vs pikes, flying units, how to avoid getting flanked, how to fight when outmatched and how to take no damage when at an advantage).

    I really like the AoW3 version much more here, as you can probably tell by my examples. CK2 is a fun game, no doubt about it. But still, well, see the above.

    #254728

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    What I would really like to see is a remake (as in, a reWORK) of this game here, EotFS.
    What made this game stand out for me (and on second thought, it’s still standing out), was that the Church would actually brand certain research as Heretic. You could actually research heretic tech clandestine, but would run the danger to “get caught” and then being branded as a heretic and enemy of the church and all that.

    I mean, such a setting makes for quite interesting choices.

    #254730

    SikBok
    Keymaster

    While AoW has some comprehensive complexity (resource management, elemental damage types, city production trees, unit stats, flanking) and some tracking complexity (where are my armies, what’s my gold at compared to my upkeep, how developed are my cities)

    I hope you find our UI helpful in alleviating the comprehension and tracking complexity.

    EotFS

    Not played it, but did read up on that.
    Mezmorki brought it to my attention, either in one of his articles or somewhere in a forum.

    #254732

    Gloweye
    Member

    I hope you find our UI helpful in alleviating the comprehension and tracking complexity.

    Mostly the tracking. Tactical combat is somewhat more comprehensive when just starting, but I wouldn’t know how to explain it any better than you guys did. It was the only notably bump I had picking AoW3 up. Flanking bonus damage is a real change from AoW2, especially since you generally deal much more damage than we did there. And I almost had to learn it anew after you guys taught the AI how to sprint.

    #254735

    heya all.

    first of all, I wanna wish triumph studios the best of luck with their new partnership!

    and everyone… I get ya are a little scared bout the takeover… I am also scared because of all the negative attention, but triumph is a company that they build with their own hands and I am sure they never gonna sell it to a greedy company that has no hearth for their game..

    please don’t fight, and try to be nice to each other, caus I am sure that the split up between the fan base is even hurting the developers more then al the angry and judging posts.

    I think they heard enough why this is or isn’t a good choice… lets from now on all just hope for the best and give them the support they need for this huge step 😀

    please keep it positive and happy k?

    #254736

    Taykor
    Member

    I hope you find our UI helpful in alleviating the comprehension and tracking complexity.

    Units’ stats window and abilities list should be A LOT more structured. Searching for something in that random list was a pain.

    #254745

    I hope you find our UI helpful in alleviating the comprehension and tracking complexity.

    Random request, could we one day be able t group cities together and have a centralised building UI, so when managing large empires you can have your 5 core cities (for example) with a common rally point. and a window that pops open and lets you select your preset amy, and that order gets sent to the appropiate cities and buiilt.

    Done right it could remove a notable number of clicks aznd let players focus on the good stuff.

    Also, preset army lists, that the player can set. So if you know your army composition is 3 Flamers and 3 chargers, and you name it ‘Pointy Fire’ then you select that template and the (city) cities produce(s) that.

    #254746

    Units’ stats window and abilities list should be A LOT more structured. Searching for something in that random list was a pain.

    Worth mentioning the 12 active abilities list restriction. Some new players erroneously think they can access only 12 abilities and don’t instinctively realise they can open up the unit/hero panel.

    Also hero inventory management – for me that’s probably the most annoying thing there is UI wise.

    #254748

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    It’s actually pretty easy: If you want to cast a spell, you get a spellbook with the spells listed, and I don’t see any reason not to collect the other abilities in “ability books” as well. For example, there is the melee attack button; this could open a book with all TOUCH abilities, while there could be a Ranged attack button which would open a book with all the ranged abilities.
    You also have a movement button – and the other 8 might be customizable buttons, player choice, which you’d just pull down from their respective books.

    This is connected with the “artifact clutter”, when artifacts give you new abilities, especially ranged ones.

    #254751

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Units’ stats window and abilities list should be A LOT more structured. Searching for something in that random list was a pain.

    Worth mentioning the 12 active abilities list restriction. Some new players erroneously think they can access only 12 abilities and don’t instinctively realise they can open up the unit/hero panel.

    Also hero inventory management – for me that’s probably the most annoying thing there is UI wise.

    On that matter, it would be useful if there was a way to customise which 12 you have. It’s annoying when some ability you rarely use ends up pushing off an ability you use all the time.

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