A couple of ideas regarding certain gameplay mechanics

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions A couple of ideas regarding certain gameplay mechanics

This topic contains 19 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  Gloweye 6 years, 12 months ago.

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  • #205660

    MartyD81
    Member

    I would like to share with the community some of the ideas that crossed my mind just the other day (after playing a 5-hour session of „that“ awesome game:-)). As almost always, these ideas are neatly organized into separate points to make your life easier:

    1, Hurrying production – too easy to exploit as it stands now IMO, and it is actually not „hurrying“ but rather an accelerated 1-turn operation. To make it a more „decision-heavy“ choice, I would suggest adding mana to the operation where relevant and use population as well because more people will be needed for the task. Now, I would like to „hurry“ the production of the Great Temple (150g, 50m) and the relevant city has got 250 population and the production output of 80 (thus a three-turn production). The penalties for every turn “sped up” would be as follows: an extra 50g, an extra 16m and finally an extra 80p would be attached to the operation (2 turns – 200g, 66m, 80p.; 1 turn – 250g, 82m, 160p). Obviously, the city would grow only by 170 (90) pop. during the process, which could provoke an interesting dilemma – do I need my city to grow faster, or do I need this particular production right now (with all the related extra costs in mind)? Of course, the number formula for penalties can be different to keep things in balance, I’ve just gone for “one third of each resource” for convenience reasons.

    2, Razing forts – I do not think that it makes sense to be able to raze them from anywhere the map without needing any units to do so. A certain amount of units should be required to carry out the operation, and razing should take at least 1 turn. One more thing concerning forts: upgrading them should take only 1 turn instead of 2 because founding a city takes 1 turn, and I do not believe that upgrading a fort is more time-consuming than building a city in the middle of empty plains…

    3, Diplomacy – While it was noticeably enhanced (as to the AI behavior in particular) in the last official patch (and incrementally in previous updates), I still think there is some room for improvement. What about the option to demand an AI player to make peace with other AI’s, to negotiate a truce with the AI’s I am at war with, and possibly to be able to convince my ally not to make another aliance with the AI with which I am not in a good relationship. Would some of these suggestions be feasible to implement and fit well/at all into the current diplomacy system? Is the diplomacy model going to be further improved in this or any other way in the not-so-distant future?

    4, The old pain of mine is back – I am fighting 5 dragons in the Dragon Throne scenario, and my elite cat squad gets wiped out in an instant by those –censored– AOE dragon attacks. So frustrating to see a level 12 hero or a champion Sphinx get vaporised/annihilated only because of this. Please, for God’s love, put these abilities on a cooldown, because else my temper will surely get the better of me…

    O.K., that’s probably it for now, please feel free to contribute with you own „counterideas“ and suggestions to the thread. Thanks everybody for reading and commenting! Tombles, you are also welcome:-).

    #205663

    NINJEW
    Member

    I don’t see what problem there is with the way hurry production currently works. You say it’s exploitable but I don’t think it is, why do you think it’s exploitable? Most of these issues you have sound more like role playing than actual game balance issues.

    I’m not familiar with the scenario you’re playing, but Dragon breath attacks are on a 1 turn cooldown

    #205728

    Gloweye
    Member

    4, The old pain of mine is back – I am fighting 5 dragons in the Dragon Throne scenario, and my elite cat squad gets wiped out in an instant by those –censored– AOE dragon attacks. So frustrating to see a level 12 hero or a champion Sphinx get vaporised/annihilated only because of this. Please, for God’s love, put these abilities on a cooldown, because else my temper will surely get the better of me…

    You could just attack with multiple stacks…that will cause them to split up.

    Also, they’re supposed to be these awesome fear-inspiring units. If you make the mistake of attacking them with to little a force you should be wiped out.

    #205733

    Arlow
    Member

    in situations like your dragons, i don’t let my precious units near them until they’ve spent themselves on fodder – call beast horde, ancestor, cadavers, the magical beings from chaos storm…. that kind of thing

    #205780

    BalkanLuka
    Member

    I suport Martys idea concerning the hurry penalities that should slightly be increased, as in the curent state hurrying production becomes the regular option in constructing every city you conquer. You hury the production of public baths, you get 100 hapines and lose 100, so next turn is a free hurry for certain, when you get your income around 100-150 and put some units as a garinson you can hurry every turn with no real penalties concerning happines or your economy, the 50 g cost is ok when a 2 turn building gets to 1, but for example hurrying production of 3 consecutive t4 or t3 units that take normaly 3 turns to make is a bit too fast, no real drawbacks of hurrying encourages you just to spam t3 units that can easily be produced with the time to create a t1, so increasing the hurry penalty for each extra turn is a good idea for me.

    #206050

    MartyD81
    Member

    I’m not familiar with the scenario you’re playing, but Dragon breath attacks are on a 1 turn cooldown

    Unfortunately no, they are not on a cooldown and that’s why they have been giving me hard times ever since I came across them… I do not mind being picked off from archers on the first turn, because they are surely not a game-changer, but those goddamned dragons with AOE attacks can thwart most of my plans in only one turn. It is beyond frustrating, really.

    #206053

    MartyD81
    Member

    You could just attack with multiple stacks…that will cause them to split up.

    Yeah, that’s what I have tried, but they seem to be fixated on my heroes even if I split them up in several groups. They are five dragons, so you can imagine the damage they can do even to the strongest of armies with that AOE thing.

    #206062

    Stormwind
    Member

    5 tier 4 units with AoE attacks…yep sounds like mega damage to me! What were you expecting? It doesnt get any worse than this.

    #206065

    Gloweye
    Member

    You could just attack with multiple stacks…that will cause them to split up.

    Yeah, that’s what I have tried, but they seem to be fixated on my heroes even if I split them up in several groups. They are five dragons, so you can imagine the damage they can do even to the strongest of armies with that AOE thing.

    Well…you got a Resurrect Hero spell. Just take the Dwelling and resurrect those you lost.

    #206066

    MartyD81
    Member

    5 tier 4 units with AoE attacks…yep sounds like mega damage to me! What were you expecting? It doesnt get any worse than this.

    I can make short work of them with my elite troops, all I need is for the dragons to have their AOE attacks on a cooldown so I can split them and move them where I need. Otherwise it is like being punished for attacking an elite squad with AOE with an elite squad. I can have any other “non-AOE” elite armies for breakfast, and I am not punished for that, why dragons with AOE should be any different?

    #206089

    Gloweye
    Member

    why dragons with AOE should be any different?

    Because dragons are (intended to be) the strongest units in the game.

    #206134

    MartyD81
    Member

    Because dragons are (intended to be) the strongest units in the game.

    I know where you are coming from, but even the strongest units should not have such an advantage IMO. Combat rules should apply to every unit and so I am going to insist on a cooldown for dragons in every other thread I create:-).

    #206135

    The issue isn’t that the dragons can all breathe, the issue is that at times you have to attack stacks of dragons, and the starting positions are such that the defending dragons can fly and breathe very effectively as the first thing that happens.

    It is not that dragons are strong, but that the way the battlefield and starting positions are set up let’s them utilize their power far better than any comparable unit.
    Attack a stack of X dragons and your army leader will get X breath attacks in his face. No way to mitigate that without gaming the AI. That is the problem at hand.

    #206143

    MartyD81
    Member

    I suport Martys idea concerning the hurry penalities that should slightly be increased, as in the curent state hurrying production becomes the regular option in constructing every city you conquer. You hury the production of public baths, you get 100 hapines and lose 100, so next turn is a free hurry for certain, when you get your income around 100-150 and put some units as a garinson you can hurry every turn with no real penalties concerning happines or your economy, the 50 g cost is ok when a 2 turn building gets to 1, but for example hurrying production of 3 consecutive t4 or t3 units that take normaly 3 turns to make is a bit too fast, no real drawbacks of hurrying encourages you just to spam t3 units that can easily be produced with the time to create a t1, so increasing the hurry penalty for each extra turn is a good idea for me.

    I am glad that I am not the only one who thinks that the hurry production thing should be revised and have more of an impact on the city economy. You are right about those t3 and t4 units – they can get churned out very easily using the option. The happiness penalty is certainly not noticeable enough, some of my cities have a +500 happiness (very happy), so this would make them just “happy”. That does not feel like much of a penalty if you ask me… Well, let’s hope the subject gets noticed by the devs and they come up with a satisfactory solution.

    #206150

    Sharpnessism
    Member

    I also think hurry production is too good (mostly for late game units and buildings).

    #206242

    Gloweye
    Member

    The issue isn’t that the dragons can all breathe, the issue is that at times you have to attack stacks of dragons, and the starting positions are such that the defending dragons can fly and breathe very effectively as the first thing that happens.

    It is not that dragons are strong, but that the way the battlefield and starting positions are set up let’s them utilize their power far better than any comparable unit.
    Attack a stack of X dragons and your army leader will get X breath attacks in his face. No way to mitigate that without gaming the AI. That is the problem at hand.

    I agree that increasing the distance might be a good solution. I really wouldn’t like Dragons to get a nerf – in fact, I think they should be stronger to make good on the epicness they have in their descriptions and feel.

    #206317

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Increasing the distance by one or two is fine. Although I would personally vote to diminish the massive size of breath attacks and flame/frost-throwing, but that’s me.

    Either way, as is right now they can only hit the absolute front-most unit for each of them, and can’t hit multiple units on the first turn, if they are a defending central stack. So I’m not really sure where the argument of dragons wiping out stacks of units, or even a single unit, on their first set of breath attacks on an aggressive first turn are really coming from?

    #206319

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Increasing the distance by one or two is fine. Although I would personally vote to diminish the massive size of breath attacks and flame/frost-throwing, but that’s me.

    Either way, as is right now they can only hit the absolute front-most unit for each of them, and can’t hit multiple units on the first turn, if they are a defending central stack. So I’m not really sure where the argument of dragons wiping out stacks of units, or even a single unit, on their first set of breath attacks on an aggressive first turn are really coming from?

    This is indeed a problem; and either solution would work for me.

    #206323

    Ericridge
    Member

    Dragon Dwellings is pretty easy for me to handle. I usually stomp on them with a single army. Although that means I have tier 3 units that’s immune to fearsome. I generally just autoresolve and win.

    Failing that and you really really really want that dragon dwellings super early/ Bring six stacks of tier 1/2 units and surround it then bum rush the dragons. And victory is yours. Anyone that dies has died for the greater cause. Hero death penalty is temporary, dragonic power is eternal.

    #206450

    Gloweye
    Member

    Increasing the distance by one or two is fine. Although I would personally vote to diminish the massive size of breath attacks and flame/frost-throwing, but that’s me.

    IIRC, Tombles once said the game can only handle 2x+1 sized ranges – that means there’s 1/3/5/7 distance to choose from. Decreasing it one size will make them as large as Fire Blunderbuss or Volley of Flaming Arrows.

    Either way, as is right now they can only hit the absolute front-most unit for each of them, and can’t hit multiple units on the first turn, if they are a defending central stack. So I’m not really sure where the argument of dragons wiping out stacks of units, or even a single unit, on their first set of breath attacks on an aggressive first turn are really coming from?

    If you attack with multiple stacks, you appear to start closer in my experience.

    Dragon Dwellings is pretty easy for me to handle. I usually stomp on them with a single army. Although that means I have tier 3 units that’s immune to fearsome. I generally just autoresolve and win.

    This case in specific is regarding the Dragon’s Throne Scenario from the Deluxe edition – it’s got a Dragon Dwelling in the center that contains 5 full dragons from start, with 1 Wyvern.

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