A scout unit for Warlord? Totally overpowered!

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions A scout unit for Warlord? Totally overpowered!

This topic contains 31 replies, has 15 voices, and was last updated by  BLOODYBATTLEBRAIN 6 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #139743

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Imo, it would be a serious mistake to give Warlord a dedicated Scout unit, because it will become totally OP with Death March.

    Imagine ROGUE had Death March to cast on their Gimbeaks. DOUBLE movement, if you want to, when worth the while … Add in the odd Haste Berries, and it will become a game of Hare and Hedgehog: “WL was here”.

    The Raise Militia spell is good enough in combo with Death March.

    I tried to suggest the idea of Raise Militia being able to raise Monster Hunters instead of racial T1 Irregs later, when the tech has been researched.

    Shouldn’t we give this a try?

    I mean, discussions show, that people seem to have a general difficulty to translate the plethora of options you have as a Warlord into a coherent strategy, which is understandable, since you can do basically everything – just not at once, so when you try you overstretch.

    The main … well, dependency the Warlord has is the fact that he needs to researh one or two more techs (and therefore need to pick carefully) and can cast a lot of useful spells (and has to pick carefully).

    If on the other hand change Death March – say, to +50% movement for a loss of 25% in HP, it will become a total nobrainer to use, and every WL will spam it all over the place, playing Draconians or Goblins (parking on Wetlands). Also, Orcs, with their ability to recover after a victory would proft a lot.

    #139749

    Garresh
    Member

    Eh warlords are *extremely* tech dependent while also being in one of the worst positions to actually tech up quickly since they often need to use a lot of of production cranking out a lot of units. They also lack a good answer to air harassment, and must generally rely on a race that gets air units to be good in midgame. Its not that people have trouble forming a strategy so much that, despite their amazing force and speed, they often are faced with multiple bad choices and no good ones. For non-flying races, there’s no good response to sorcs or rogues who take to the air and park in mountains and rivers. A warlord must death march to catch them. That generally means going into a fight at half health against one of the following: swimming high alpha assassins, physical resistant shadow stalkers(or lessers), physical resistant phantom warriors, or ultra fast high damage node serpents. And they also go in with 20-40 less CP on top of this, when the force they’re attacking is likely augmented by chain lightning, sadism, smokescreen, static field(or whatever its called) or any number if adept or mastery spells.

    Despite all their insane tools, warlords still struggle with projection so badly they can’t even defend their own territory. Dreads at least get flame tanks eventually to deal with all these physical immune floaters that certain classes bring to the table.

    #139758

    UltraDD
    Member

    Well you can already death march a zypher. Couldn’t find complaints about that anywhere on the forum.

    #139760

    Bouh
    Member

    Despite all their insane tools, warlords still struggle with projection so badly they can’t even defend their own territory. Dreads at least get flame tanks eventually to deal with all these physical immune floaters that certain classes bring to the table.

    I totaly don’t understand this. Warlord’s class units are top dog in their area, and the warlord even has some upgrades to improve his units in cities (+2def with walls, +3 damage without). Is the problem a problem of facing physicaly protected units ? Or a problem a defending ? Only the first one hold IMO.

    I think the paradigm for a warlord or dreadnaught is not to hunt down flying stack — because they can’t do it anyway and it would be pointless if everyone had the same tools — but only to garrison their cities. As this is the only way to limit their insane production machine, I don’t think this should be changed.

    This scout subject sadden me, because I don’t think the warlord should need a proper scout.

    To me, if scout is so much of a problem, we could solve it by swaping monster hunters and berzerkers. Because obviously berzerkers are not good enough to compensate, MH would definitely do it by giving a scouting ability, a hunting ability (32MP with many move abilities is enough to hunt down scouts) and a site clearing ability. Warlord early game solved. No need to corrupt the class into an abomination.

    #139765

    UltraDD
    Member

    Do people just bash berserkers\MH clearing speed just because of auto-combat? Monster hunters are crazy in melee range vs any creature they have bonus damage against -outdamage berserkers completely, They deal more damage this way than pot shotting stuff with rusty xbows- and they are super tanky. Just go try them in manual combat, Warlord is far from worst in clearing in manual battles.

    Putting them to appear earlier is a balance mess for single player.. Don’t forget the game goal is to be balanced for sp as much as is it for mp. -Or just wait eventual complaints about MH ruining PBEM-

    #139766

    Dagoth Ur
    Member

    I’ve been playing a lot of Warlord lately and the biggest factor in starting good is getting Training Regimen and War Effort. If you can get those early, you’ll do alright.

    I agree with you, Jolly Joker, that improving the scout is not needed, but only if you can depend more on these two techs showing up. You said in another topic that picking Explorer increases the stability of a Warlords play, and this is true; if War Effort and Training Regimen don’t show up (I even had Conqueror show up on turn 1 a couple of times), you’ll have less of a setback with Explorer than if you picked another Specialization (though Partisan is just slightly worse than Explorer) ànd you get decent scouts on top. Yet, this forces you to pick Explorer to make a bad start managable, and you’re also gambling away a very good start.

    So this discussion really doesn’t matter. A Warlord IS worse in scouting. Early game you can only use Death March once per turn and hiding in water will cost you movement points ànd the embark penalty except for Humans (and investment in an extra tech). You wíll loose the scout war as a Warlord. Your opponents will be able to ignore you if your scouting unit is stronger, and engage when it is weaker or embarked (/used Death March), on top of that they’ll be likely to spot you first because they have greater vision range and have more mobility. Not to mention not being able to fly or float makes independents eat you for breakfast. If you want to scout as a Warlord, you’ll end up knowing what parts of the map look like (most likely the roads), and the only time you pick up enemy activity is when your scout is going to get murdered, sure you might get some pick ups, but loosing a unit that you wouldn’t have otherwise costs money as well as production capacity (or mana).

    TL;DR: Warlord ís bad at scouting, but the real problem is War Effort / Training Regimen concistency.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 4 months ago by  President.
    #139769

    Garresh
    Member

    @bouh

    You can’t garrison everything. A single floating stack positioned correctly will threaten 3 or 4 cities, forcing 4x the attacking force onto city garrisons without engaging once. You can’t garrison all your cities to stop an actual army. Garrisons are for scouts and small teams. They don’t help vs raiding parties because attempting to garrison that hard would drive you broke before you finished all your garrisons.

    #139774

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Jesus, Bouh is tempting me to go another anti-Bouh tirade with his inanities the last few days…

    **must stay away for the rest of the day at least**

    #139777

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    You can make sure you get Traing Regimen and War Effort immediately:

    Pick 2 out of Explorer, Expander and Destruction Adept. You’ll then get either War Effort or Traing Regimen or both in your tech book. If you get just one, research it immediately, then you get the other.

    #139778

    UltraDD
    Member

    Why not just give warlords a spell to fortify a watchtower so it cannot be razed and gain +2 LOS range? They don’t get a scout but they have a little easier time to catch up on sneak attacks. You also know what path they often check and can backstab them 😛

    #139779

    Dagoth Ur
    Member

    You can make sure you get Traing Regimen and War Effort immediately:

    Pick 2 out of Explorer, Expander and Destruction Adept. You’ll then get either War Effort or Traing Regimen or both in your tech book. If you get just one, research it immediately, then you get the other.

    All hail Jolly Joker!

    Just restarted a couple of times, also works with Partisan.

    #139781

    grimsly
    Member

    I’ve been playing a lot of Warlord lately and the biggest factor in starting good is getting Training Regimen and War Effort. If you can get those early, you’ll do alright.


    TL;DR: Warlord ís bad at scouting, but the real problem is War Effort / Training Regimen concistency.

    I actually did an experiment with this with four warlords to see how long it took to get War Effort and Training Regimen researched, and I got from 3 turns (lucky start with knowledge scrolls) to ~17 turns (bad start, with neither of the techs and expander tech blocking my tech.) I’d say anyone who plays WL should think about dropping Expander/Explorer/Partisan to have a better chance at these two techs.

    Of course, if you’re really determined you can just muscle through whatever comes up (chances are it’s Warrior Culture or Garrison’s Honor) and those techs are helpful as well. I like to go all in and research the whole empire upgrade tree quickly, while building up for a cavalry rush (cheaper, healthier, more experience, less damage from retaliation… it’s a thing of beauty.)

    I feel like the consistency isn’t absolutely game shattering, but I do agree that it causes some issues.

    #139782

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    There is no scouting WAR in the beginning. There is only a scouting RACE, that has two targets.
    1) cashing in as much goodies as possible;
    2) find opponent(s) and watch them

    If you use Death March CLEVERLY, you will be extremely fast with the militia units YOU will summon just as the others. Your racial pick will give you extra mobility. Dwarves and Goblins give you an extra chance – starting in underground will make it easy to block everyone out. Tunneling, Mountaineering, Wetland Walking/Recovery…
    If you pick Explorer, you can win the Scouting WAR at YOUR border, once it starts, because you will be able to reach everyone.

    The trouble with Warlord is, that they must not walk into the trap of overproducing. They have very good Class units, but you don’t win the game with a ton of Mounted Archers or Berserkers – you just deplete your economy and block your production facilities.

    #139785

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Jolly Joker wrote:</div>
    You can make sure you get Traing Regimen and War Effort immediately:

    Pick 2 out of Explorer, Expander and Destruction Adept. You’ll then get either War Effort or Traing Regimen or both in your tech book. If you get just one, research it immediately, then you get the other.

    All hail Jolly Joker!

    Just restarted a couple of times, also works with Partisan.

    I left Partisan out because if you take, say, Partisan, Destruction Adept and Destruction Master, you may end unlucky. Partisan works only in combination with either Explorer or Expander, but not with Destruction Adept, so that doesn’t allow Destruction Master.

    #139807

    Yeah, I’m with garresh here. The warlord getting a scout will make them competitive in the early game, but not overpowered.

    The primary reason is dual track armies. Whereas other people can scout/have scout wars independent of their big army/city production, warlords have to compromise one for the other (they will still have to do this with a production scout).

    There is no scouting WAR in the beginning. There is only a scouting RACE, that has two targets.
    1) cashing in as much goodies as possible;
    2) find opponent(s) and watch them

    In addition to the tasks you name, you also want to shut down the enemies scouting, so they can’t watch you or pick up goodies.

    cashing goodies is something the warlord is bad at because floating/flying gives you a vision bonus as well as a movement one. a warlord scout would be unlikely to change this.

    At release and in the Beta, the warlord was competitive because research was faster: monster hunters and upgraded racial cavalry came out fast enough to make them paper over the problem.

    With the research pushback, however (this did make the game much better in other ways, so I’m not complaining), the warlord’s weak period became the entirety of most mp games on medium or small maps.

    a scout just restores the status quo: they are worse at it than other people, but close enough so they can overcome it.

    #139817

    alf978
    Member

    I’m also with Chrys and Garresh on this one.
    The WL getting a scout will most likely not upset the existing Scouting hierarchy.

    Let’s just see how Triumph chose to deal with this during the next patch/expansion and go from there.

    For me, using Death March (if you’re lucky enough to get during early game) is a very very poor compromise for scouting deficiencies, which go beyond simply pushing back the fog of war.
    Add to this the need for a specific specializations and your limiting your options on the other end of the spectrum.

    Plus this has been discussed ad nauseam at the WL Balancing Thread, I don’t see what we’re gaining re-hashing the same argument again on the general forum…

    #139820

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Trouble is, you can’t balance the game for S and M maps only. If you play only a small part of the actual spectrum you can’t balance everything for that. If you think, there’s a problem, try playing with MANY ROADS in the setup and see how Scouting problems are reduced.

    #139822

    jb
    Member

    One solution is to turn off the free gold/mana drops. The more I play the more I turn these off as it just gives extra advantage to any player lucky enough to start a flying summon.

    Another thread mention adding guards to these ‘free’ pickups. I like that idea long term, but for now just turn off the free pickups.

    #139826

    Ahem….isn’t there an entire Warlord thread, in the balance section?

    And aren’t some of the later posts in said thread dealing with the scouting issue?

    One wonders why this thread has been created.

    #139827

    UltraDD
    Member

    Actually what jb remind me of an interesting idea that I decided not to post because I’ll get flamed -mostly- with things such as it’ll be game breaking etc.

    You know those production resources you find around -usually with low defense or none- and if you are lucky get an expensive building very early -or save it later and get stupid things as master guild-.

    What if instead of building anything. The nearest city gained +100 Production for one turn? Now you can decide what to build with them. And you can’t use them to get very expensive things. Think like magic catalyts. I know good player will defend them until a hard battle so they get a REMARKABLE edge over the foe.

    Maybe you need to build an expensive soldier in one turn? Good thing you saved it! Now use it.

    Also these things, research scrolls and magic catalysts need some defense.. They have a gigantic impact on the game!

    #139832

    That’s a great idea.

    #139837

    Anublet90
    Member

    Jesus, Bouh is tempting me to go another anti-Bouh tirade with his inanities the last few days…

    **must stay away for the rest of the day at least**

    Come on man, comments like that aren’t necessary.

    This is the Internet, you’re not going to get along with everybody, but you don’t get to be <adjective> because of it. Just ignore his post and move on.

    #139840

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Both god ideas: Guard the free pickups and give +100 production for finding production resources.

    #139886

    woolfsmck
    Member

    I turn off the free loot too in SP … Max roamers… minimum treasure… no cities or roads…minimum assests…no techs…150 turns to build 3 cities and the ai barely out produces me … Plus, with WL , pikemen eat up flyers … I don’t need to scout , just crush..

    #139938

    Bouh
    Member

    @Bouh

    You can’t garrison everything. A single floating stack positioned correctly will threaten 3 or 4 cities, forcing 4x the attacking force onto city garrisons without engaging once. You can’t garrison all your cities to stop an actual army. Garrisons are for scouts and small teams. They don’t help vs raiding parties because attempting to garrison that hard would drive you broke before you finished all your garrisons.

    This also consider the warlord to stay on defense and hopelessly run after a faster and more mobile stack. But this is completely stupid. If, instead, the warlord would simply attack, the rogue would be forced on both defending an harassing. How does a rogue defend against a warlord BTW ? Of course if you always consider the warlord to be passive he will never win any match, but this is a set up and biased situation. The warlord doesn’t have to play *your* game where he has not a single chance to win.

    #139940

    Nyanko
    Member

    Bouh might have pointed in the right direction. Maybe many players are thinking the warlord is underpowered because they don’t play it like a warlord should be, always harassing his neighbors and bringing up the fight early in the game.

    #139944

    Again, warlord projection in early game just isn’t going to happen.

    You have no real scouting, so where do you send your troops?

    You can’t harass your neighbours because your power comes from having powerful, concentrated armies, which are the opposite of harassing forces.

    Everyone else can harass better than the Warlord, simply by virtue of easily summonable scouts.

    Compare – Druid army with 6 units, comes into your domain, you are forced to react, meanwhile Hunters can go around you and actually harass you, not to mention their summons…

    What does Warlord get that compares?

    No, WL is not an early game harasser.

    #139960

    Lannister
    Member

    Then, turn death march into something new not related to mobility and let the warlord have a new shiny scout, baby manticores. Or lets be more original and think of treasure area guards, ideas from the balance thread, watch towers, more starting troops. I hope the dlc finally ends this debate, it is tiresome and working idea already exist and a thread deticated to the class. Btw, where is EXnihil ,

    #139989

    Bouh
    Member

    I’m not talking about harassing. I’m talking about attacking. Moving and not staying defensive, because obviously if you are not as mobile as your ennemy staying on the defensive is stupid and vowed to a slow and painful death.

    Also, in early game the warlord is probably the most powerful class to defend against harassing because of summon militia. Summon militia that is also useful to scout, even though it’s not as good as a summonable flying unit, it can still be used for recon, the primary use of a scout. Just because a scout can’t be converted into a harassing force doesn’t remove his ability to scout. And I’m not saying militia are good scout, I’m saying they can scout, which is all you need when you need an objective to attack.

    And defending is not always a good reaction to an ennemy attack. Counter-attack is often a good move. Something the warlord is highly effective at because of his speed.

    #140060

    Also, in early game the warlord is probably the most powerful class to defend against harassing because of summon militia.

    errr no.

    I’d take pretty much any summoned scout in this situation, even if just to be able to get them right next to my leader stack.

    In any case Bouh, I was replying to Nyanko’s post.

    Another thing, you (and JJ) are jumping to wild conclusions based on a proposed unit that really we know very little about (which isn’t even supposed to be outside of beta yet, and here you are talking about it…:S)

    @ Bouh, Lastly, you have made the same arguments numerous times, in this thread, the actual warlord thread, and the beta thread, and I have made the same counter arguments again and again, and frankly it’s getting tiresome (evidently Lannister thinks the same about the whole debate as well lol).

    How about we let this new unit come in, we test it because that is what we are, testers and if it is unbalancing, boring or whatever, we give the appropriate feedback, and the appropriate action (e.g. if it is unbalancing, it gets nerfed, if it makes the WL overly similar, it gets removed) is effected?

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