About problems with goblins.

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions About problems with goblins.

This topic contains 23 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  terrahero 7 years, 8 months ago.

Viewing 24 posts - 1 through 24 (of 24 total)
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  • #120597

    Marcus
    Member

    Hey there everyone,

    This is my bit on trying to understand why goblins usually a poor choice in game and how it can be solved hopefully.

    I made a painful experiment of playing Goblin Rogue. “What was so painful about that?” someone might ask, to which I will answer: “I fought every battle in auto mode and then watched how horribly AI manages my poor goblins over and over and over again”.

    And I kind of got to the conclusion from what I saw that maybe the issue with goblins is not about the capability of goblins to heal more than others and more of saving most of your units through your battle.

    Loosing units is a pain and if it happens every turn while you can’t do anything about it and have to wait a lot for reinforcing your stack it won’t be fun to play anymore. That is what obvious (to me) what the biggest issue with goblins and the rogue class.

    Someone can argue, that it is what the goblin gameplay supposed to be like. Cheap and easily replaceable. The problem is they are not that cheap and can not be replaced that easily.

    So why is this happening (and I am speaking about auto combat only here)?
    It seems to me that AI isn’t capable of keeping those goblin units alive. I mean here is what I got from watching AI fighting for me about 20 times in a row (Standard stack Leader + 2 swarm darters + 2 marauders + Blight Doctor against various treasure site’s mobs):

    1. He doesn’t uses the Leader. Whenever you want him to use spells in battle or not in most battles the first thing your leader or hero under AI command will do is: Wait in defense. That’s right no spells, no abilities, not even charging those squishy 1 tier units with 99% chance of instakilling them. Not even when they have 5 hp left. He will just tell everyone I’m taking a nap for one round and you guys do whatever you want like a real leader should (:

    2. Your expensive (for the beginning of the game) supporting Witch Doctor will charge the closest enemy without even thinking twice, having the courage of 6 Manticore Riders. Straight to his death he will run against infantry, pikes, archers and cavalry or monsters just to curse someone. Brave of him, but he will always die due to this.

    3. You kind of hope after that at least your Swarm darters will have some kind of sense to stand in the back and shoot everyone from the maximum distance. Yeah, sure thing they won’t. They will run after the cursed target ignoring the perfectly available targets they have or will concentrate on the strongest guy in the opposing stack. And the next round when things are getting close and personal they will actually turn to melee. Good thinking guys.

    4. What about your Marauders? What will they do? Well, since one of them for some reason always ends up being the rear guard, he probably won’t see any action at all. And the second one will slowly move towards the enemy, trying to keep the same pace as your squishy archers and support troops.

    If you are willing I recorded those fights and you can check it yourself starting something after 25th minute of the game:

    TL;DR
    AI in auto combat should get some love. This is especially crucial for goblin IMHO.

    #120607

    Garresh
    Member

    Yep

    #120616

    AI in auto combat should get some love. This is especially crucial for goblin IMHO.

    it is getting looked into quite a lot, so it should be much better post patch/dlc drop.

    #120625

    Marcus
    Member

    it is getting looked into quite a lot, so it should be much better post patch/dlc drop.

    I will keep my fingers crossed for that, it would be a shame if AI will be on the same page after patch.

    #120631

    Gloweye
    Member

    Auto-combat is one of the reasons I’ve never played MP yet.

    #120634

    Garresh
    Member

    Yeah here’s hoping. I mean I’m not holding my breath for intelligent AI in large battles, but if the AI knows how to engage cautiously in small engagements that would be more than sufficient.

    #120654

    LordTheRon
    Member

    Goblins and autocombat got a bit of love. It should be better with the right army composition and wetland foraging (healing on wetlands) really helps them heal quicker on the strategic map. And in the RMG there’s quite a bit of wetland patches now.

    #120660

    jb
    Member

    wetland foraging (healing on wetlands)

    Is that a tease, a spoiler, a rumor, or other? lol

    #120661

    LordTheRon
    Member

    All of the above. 🙂

    #120662

    @ jb, it’s an “other” specifically telling you exactly what it is lol.

    We’ve been dancing around it and dropping (unsubtle) hints that it’s good to have it out in the open lol.

    #120709

    terrahero
    Member

    This happens a bit, people have a discussion but its something thats already being looked into in the upcomming patch/expansion.

    Its being released in a week, any chance we’ll see some patchnotes or detailed content information soon?

    #120711

    @ terrahero, I’m doing a Let’s Play and Sikbok told me I can cover whatever I like in it. It’s release date is to be confirmed, but there’s no reason for me not to go over the changes.

    Be aware though, that there are *alot,* and I’m still adjusting and figuring out the new strats.

    #120713

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Its being released in a week, any chance we’ll see some patchnotes or detailed content information soon?

    Yes! 😀

    Also, I’ve improved the tactical AI so it engages more cautiously in the first turn and the general consequence of this is:

    Infantry die more
    Cavalry and ranged units die a lot less

    There are also a bunch of fixes for rare cases where the AI would do stupid things (e.g. the AI sometimes didn’t realise that melee attacking a unit with first strike was a bad idea if that first strike would kill the unit before it could do any damage).

    What you need to realise though is that Autocombat is AI vs AI, so the improvements cut both ways, some of the improvements might mean you lose more units in auto-combat. For example, I recently added code to let the AI use the sprint ability, which scoundrels have, so people started complaining that they’d lose more units in AC vs brigand camps.

    Anyways, I can’t promise the AI won’t make dumb tactical mistakes any more, but hopefully you should see improvement in the coming patch!

    #120716

    b0rsuk
    Member

    What you need to realise though is that Autocombat is AI vs AI, so the improvements cut both ways, some of the improvements might mean you lose more units in auto-combat. For example, I recently added code to let the AI use the sprint ability, which scoundrels have, so people started complaining that they’d lose more units in AC vs brigand camps.

    It’s up to player to prepare. Break the symmetry by bringing unit combination that works better against this particular enemy.

    #120717

    Infantry die more
    Cavalry and ranged units die a lot less

    I can confirm this.

    What you need to realise though is that Autocombat is AI vs AI, so the improvements cut both ways, some of the improvements might mean you lose more units in auto-combat. For example, I recently added code to let the AI use the sprint ability, which scoundrels have, so people started complaining that they’d lose more units in AC vs brigand camps.

    Yeah, my empire got ruined yesterday by marauding Brigands.

    3 prospectors v 3 scoundrels – I’d have betted on the Prospectors to win. They lost yesterday, with 2 Scoundrels still alive.

    #120730

    Marcus
    Member

    Yes!

    Also, I’ve improved the tactical AI so it engages more cautiously in the first turn and the general consequence of this is:

    Infantry die more
    Cavalry and ranged units die a lot less

    There are also a bunch of fixes for rare cases where the AI would do stupid things (e.g. the AI sometimes didn’t realise that melee attacking a unit with first strike was a bad idea if that first strike would kill the unit before it could do any damage).

    That is reassuring!

    Any input on starting position (e.g. Infantry ending in the back) and archers/supports charging? Will it be changed?

    #120733

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Infantry starting at the back is a separate issue, it’s not really an AI thing I’m afraid. I’m wondering about the ranged units using melee attacks though. In a way, it is desired behavior since some units (monster hunters for example) should use melee as much as ranged.

    Actually, I just looked and there’s a small error in the code. From what I can see, if the AI thinks it can kill something with ranged or melee with equal efficiency it will always pick melee. I’ll see if I can fix it!

    #120742

    Morty
    Member

    Goblins and autocombat got a bit of love. It should be better with the right army composition and wetland foraging (healing on wetlands) really helps them heal quicker on the strategic map. And in the RMG there’s quite a bit of wetland patches now.

    Wetlands foraging, huh? Interesting, if situational.

    #120757

    b0rsuk
    Member

    3 prospectors v 3 scoundrels – I’d have betted on the Prospectors to win. They lost yesterday, with 2 Scoundrels still alive.

    Scoundrels are a class unit and requires research. What made you think the most basic unit possible would kill them ?

    #120758

    Bouh
    Member

    Scoundrels are a class unit and requires research. What made you think the most basic unit possible would kill them ?

    I think scoundrels always would kill racial irregulars, but the thing with scoundrels is that they are basic roaming bandits, so if you make them too strong, they will become annoying.

    #120759

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>BLOODYBATTLEBRAIN wrote:</div>
    3 prospectors v 3 scoundrels – I’d have betted on the Prospectors to win. They lost yesterday, with 2 Scoundrels still alive.

    Scoundrels are a class unit and requires research. What made you think the most basic unit possible would kill them ?

    They used to kill them. Now they do not.

    #120978

    LordTheRon
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>LordTheRon wrote:</div>
    Goblins and autocombat got a bit of love. It should be better with the right army composition and wetland foraging (healing on wetlands) really helps them heal quicker on the strategic map. And in the RMG there’s quite a bit of wetland patches now.

    Wetlands foraging, huh? Interesting, if situational.

    True but you shoukd know that the RMG conjures up more wetlands than it used to do. Sometimes small patches, but they really help your Goblins.

    #120997

    Morty
    Member

    That’s good to hear. I guess Terraform might also become more valuable for goblins?

    #121019

    terrahero
    Member

    Yes! :D

    Yay~! 😀

    Also, I’ve improved the tactical AI so it engages more cautiously in the first turn and the general consequence of this is:

    Infantry die more<br>
    Cavalry and ranged units die a lot less

    For me the biggest problem between strategic and automatic wasnt the fact it was inefficient. It was that autocombat had results that were entirely not what i expected.
    I expect melee units to take more damage, based on how they work, and as such risk dying. I expect ranged units to be more survivable, especially with melee units around to buffer for them.
    So imagine my surprise when all my ranged units die, and my melee survive.

    There are also a bunch of fixes for rare cases where the AI would do stupid things (e.g. the AI sometimes didn’t realise that melee attacking a unit with first strike was a bad idea if that first strike would kill the unit before it could do any damage).

    Cant complain about the AI being less suicidal.

    What you need to realise though is that Autocombat is AI vs AI, so the improvements cut both ways, some of the improvements might mean you lose more units in auto-combat. For example, I recently added code to let the AI use the sprint ability, which scoundrels have, so people started complaining that they’d lose more units in AC vs brigand camps.

    Entirely understandable.

    Anyways, I can’t promise the AI won’t make dumb tactical mistakes any more, but hopefully you should see improvement in the coming patch!

    Looking forward to it.

    And to ThreeB’s letsplay. Wild Magic had me pretty excited, and im curious about Partisan.

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