AD Summons

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This topic contains 163 replies, has 21 voices, and was last updated by  ExNihil 6 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 164 total)
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  • #216288

    ExNihil
    Member

    Hey Guys,

    Question – what animals and monsters are not included in the t1, t2 and t3 summons that should potentially be included there?

    I am uncertain but I don’t think you get Dire Monkey, Dire Werepanther, Dire Bear through summoning, and I would love to have these as AD – OFC with some random chance roll and in their respective tier.

    Also, another interesting possibility is to introduce some animals as city productions for AD – after all, this is the class that is supposed to be able to grow and nurture these creatures, and I think it will make for a very interesting modification to it’s mechanics. I guess there is little chance the devs will try something like this at this stage, but still – its worth a try.

    Finally, what about tying the chance of receiving certain animals/creatures to the terrain type? This might be necessary if more creatures are introduced this way, to make sure this isn’t simply overwhelmingly random.

    #216290

    NINJEW
    Member

    dire bears and dire panthers you can get

    http://aow3db.tumblr.com/tagged/classarchdruid

    bears in particular are a big reason to go eldritch animals: you get some decently solid t2 frontliners, but much like summon fantastic creature with sorcerer, the big attraction is you could win the lottery and get a solid t3

    #216311

    Bob5
    Member

    Nightmare? Fellhorse? Fellhorse sucks but it got buffed in 1.6 if I recall correctly. It still isn’t that good, but I guess you also need to have a few crappy summons in there to balance out the spiders and serpents. Nightmare might be an interesting addition to the Eldritch pool, it’s one of the best UG scout units with Cave Crawling, Night Vision, and Lava Walking.

    Finally, what about tying the chance of receiving certain animals/creatures to the terrain type? This might be necessary if more creatures are introduced this way, to make sure this isn’t simply overwhelmingly random.

    I really like this idea. Slightly elevate the odds of spiders underground at the cost of serpents, add some scorpion summons with Tropical Concealment (like the ones in AoW1), elevate penguins in the snow, add dread monkeys for blighted terrain, and so on.

    #216312

    NINJEW
    Member

    sounds like a good way to encourage gaming your location when you summon so you get the summon you want

    don’t particularly like that for a change that sounds like it’d just affect flavor. everyone find the terrain that bears are more likely to pop in and summon there nonstop.

    doesn’t sound like a fun or interesting change to me.

    #216315

    Bob5
    Member

    I wouldn’t want it to change the chances drastically, at least not for the best summons like the bear or T4 serpents. Just minor changes, like cutting out bleak warg on volcanic terrain and doubling odds of nightmare there (if nightmare gets added). With the number of summon possibilities it’s still far from guarantee to get Nightmare when summoning in volcanic.

    #216317

    NINJEW
    Member

    which terrain lowers gryphon chance

    every AD i’ve ever played with bitches nonstop about the crappy gryphon summons, sounds like they’d all get into gaming that

    #216318

    NINJEW
    Member

    oh no i’m fighting frostlings i better find some volcanos to summon in

    i don’t like the kind of decision making this change would lead to, locational summons doesn’t sound like a very fun decision to make, or play against

    #216323

    Bob5
    Member

    Fun is something that’s difficult to debate, what is considered fun varies from person to person. I’d like it for flavour reasons, I doubt it’d have significant effects on strategy. Let’s take a look at Eldritch animal summon list and let’s assume we add the Nightmare:

    Bleak Warg
    Blight Tusk Boar
    Dire Panther
    Dire Bear
    Elephant
    Gryphon
    Mammoth
    Nightmare
    Polar Bear

    That’s 9 summons. Assuming each has a default chance of 11.11% chance of being summoned, getting rid of Bleak Warg and Polar Bear and putting those odds into the Nightmare on Volcanic would make the Nightmare chance 1 in 3 there. Not too bad, but far from reliable, especially considering that the volcanic terrain might not be close to the place where you actually want the summons.

    #216327

    NINJEW
    Member

    the summon chances are weighted

    unfortunately i don’t know what the weighing comes out to

    #216328

    NINJEW
    Member

    ultimately the chances being weighted are probably what make locational summoning the least likely. i doubt the devs want to painstakingly create new chance tables for every terrain type just for a bit of flavor (that also has potential for abuse)

    #216361

    Gloweye
    Member

    For the record, here are the sets and their weights:

    Wild Animal:

    • Baby Reed Serpent
    • Baby Shock Serpent
    • Boar
    • Dire Penguin
    • Dread Spider Baby
    • Hunter Spider Baby
    • Tiger
    • Vampire Spider Baby
    • Warg

    Eldritch Animal:

    • Dire Panther
    • Elephant
    • Mammoth
    • Gryphon (x3)
    • Blight Tusk Boar
    • Bleak Warg
    • Dire Bear

    Gargantuan Animal:

    • Mature Reed Serpent (x2)
    • Mature Shock Serpent (x2)
    • Dread Spider Queen
    • Vampire Spider Queen
    • Cockatrice
    • Hunter Spider Queen
    • King Reed Serpent
    • King Shock Serpent

    Fantasitc Animal(Because why not)

    • Obsidian Wyvern
    • Fire Wyvern
    • Frost Wyvern
    • Gryphon
    • Watcher (x2)

    Which makes for a much better chance for a watcher then you have for a Dire Bear…

    Anyway, continue discussion please. Above information is correct, and will soon replace the current wiki notes, which are pre-EL.

    #216363

    quo
    Member

    Finally, what about tying the chance of receiving certain animals/creatures to the terrain type? This might be necessary if more creatures are introduced this way, to make sure this isn’t simply overwhelmingly random.

    Funny, I was thinking the same thing this morning.

    It’s possible I am just never going to be an AD player though. The completely random animal summons make that class extremely unattractive to me.

    In the past I’d suggested that instead of being completely random, the animal to be summoned was apparent from the spell screen prior to committing the cast. This could be based loosely on the concept of “seasons” or “planetary positions” or whatever. The AD would always know what season it currently was/which ways the winds were blowing and what animal would show up if s/he cast on that turn. Then there would still be some randomization but it would happen up front instead of handing you a much undesired Boar.

    #216372

    Fenraellis
    Member

    which terrain lowers gryphon chance

    every AD i’ve ever played with bitches nonstop about the crappy gryphon summons, sounds like they’d all get into gaming that

    Wait… since when are Gryphons ‘crappy’?? If nothing else, it’s a 36 move speed Flyer:
    48 HP (less than T2 Cavalry, but higher than average of 44 for the comparable T2 Wyvern type of units, which also have average 11 Def, aside from Gold)
    12 Def (!!)
    10 Res (12 with Beast Mastery)
    36 Movement
    First Strike (combined with Tireless at Elite)
    12 Strength melee (but easily boosted by Awaken and/or Savage Rage)

    Perhaps they are not a Dire Bear(Notably the only other Eldritch Animal summon with 12 Def, the rest being between 9 to 11, and it’s a T3 unit!), and have lower innate melee strength than several other Eldritch Animal summons(Bears and Elephant/Mammoth), but they are far from being a ‘crappy’ unit.

    #216377

    Don’t people just use gryphon’s as super scouts (since hunters don’t have that large a vision range)? I can think of lots of reasons to prefer a gryphon over a bear (like in an island map, or for city attacks). I’d be more likely to complain about mammoths, because those things just take so much damage that they beg for a healer, and thus slow stuff down.

    Otherwise, terrain based summons will lead to “mandatory” combos with terraforming spells and terrain types where AD are op.

    Something small like “high morale” for a summon made in its proper terrain, and “low morale” for one not could work (so a perm +200 or -200 morale).

    As for production, maybe the top tree class structure could get you tree men, who evolve into Greater tree men. Sort of the giant kin for the Horned gods. But that would have to be paired with a whole last gasp new bit for all classes.

    #216389

    Zaskow
    Member

    Eldritch Animal:

    Dire Panther
    Elephant
    Mammoth
    Gryphon (x3)
    Blight Tusk Boar
    Bleak Warg
    Dire Bear

    Where is Polar bear? I saw him a few times…

    Baby Reed Serpent
    Baby Shock Serpent
    Boar
    Dire Penguin
    Dread Spider Baby
    Hunter Spider Baby
    Tiger
    Vampire Spider Baby
    Warg

    Honestly, I’d cut this list a bit. Boar, Dire pinguin and Warg are crap. Other animal can evolve or at least don’t suck so much in combats.

    Dire Panther
    Elephant
    Mammoth
    Gryphon (x3)
    Blight Tusk Boar
    Bleak Warg
    Dire Bear

    Same problem – Boar and warg are sorts of crap. Decision is obvious – buff or delete.

    Mature Reed Serpent (x2)
    Mature Shock Serpent (x2)
    Dread Spider Queen
    Vampire Spider Queen
    Cockatrice
    Hunter Spider Queen
    King Reed Serpent
    King Shock Serpent

    Balanced list, nothing to complain.

    #216393

    NINJEW
    Member

    i thought dire penguins were pretty good

    dual channel damage + life steal

    what is this upside down world

    Wait… since when are Gryphons ‘crappy’?? If nothing else, it’s a 36 move speed Flyer:
    48 HP (less than T2 Cavalry, but higher than average of 44 for the comparable T2 Wyvern type of units, which also have average 11 Def, aside from Gold)
    12 Def (!!)
    10 Res (12 with Beast Mastery)
    36 Movement
    First Strike (combined with Tireless at Elite)
    12 Strength melee (but easily boosted by Awaken and/or Savage Rage)

    Perhaps they are not a Dire Bear(Notably the only other Eldritch Animal summon with 12 Def, the rest being between 9 to 11, and it’s a T3 unit!), and have lower innate melee strength than several other Eldritch Animal summons(Bears and Elephant/Mammoth), but they are far from being a ‘crappy’ unit.

    probably because an AD going for eldritch animal is looking for a decent damage dealer generally. by that point scouting is already being done quite well by hunters, so spending 70 cp to get a 12/turn mana drain that fills a function that you already have covered kinda blows. meanwhile, while they can fly and don’t have awful defense, they’re rather lacking in the damage department, as every other animal is either 15 damage + devastating charge, or dual channel + charge or dual channel + overwhelm.

    i guess in that respect they’re better than panthers, who fill all the same functions and have all the same weaknesses, but are generally going to be worse.

    #216395

    ExNihil
    Member

    probably because an AD going for eldritch animal is looking for a decent damage dealer generally. by that point scouting is already being done quite well by hunters, so spending 70 cp to get a 12/turn mana drain that fills a function that you already have covered kinda blows. meanwhile, while they can fly and don’t have awful defense, they’re rather lacking in the damage department, as every other animal is either 15 damage + devastating charge, or dual channel + charge or dual channel + overwhelm.

    You’ve got a point there. I always like Gryphons – they are the best scouting unit in the game IMO, but they do cost a lot to get. I think another problem is that when you actually do want Gryphons, you are not sure to get them when you call for them and vice-versa, when you don’t want them you might very well get them.

    I don’t know what options are here though: I don’t think Gryphons need a buff, but perhaps they could evolve into a new unit called King Gryphons or something such like?

    #216397

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Well… King Gryphon Mount is a thing…

    #216403

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    AD summons are FINE. I don’t know why anyone would get the idea they would all have to be equally strong. Also, “working” with animals is part of the AD’s job description.
    Gryphons are amazing, as they are air defense units. They ARE a bit on the fragile side, but gaving a couple of Gryphons gives you great eyes and ears and makes spying on you not an easy task
    Animals are just that, so you can expect them to function not so well on their own, but all the better with decent tutelage. Awaken Spirit and Savage Rage are pretty massive stuff.

    #216404

    NINJEW
    Member

    the gryphon talk is less “gryphons need to be removed and are unbalanced” and more “here is where proposed mechanic abuse could stem from”

    #216411

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I was against changing Eldritch animal, because I thought that spell would serve to give AD aerial domination. Especially Gold Wyvern were pretty nice, Gryphons being the light and fast variant.

    Of course that has changed now. It’s a “get T2 animal with a chance for a flyer” spell now.

    If we really want to talk abot AD Summons, for me the problem is, that Wild Animal for 40 Mana has good chances to give you an animal that will be able to evolve and therefore become extremely useful, Spiders being fast and handy on the bf, while Serpents are a bit too slow, but still useful.
    Eldritch for 70 is a much more mundane deal. Sure, an Elephant is better than a Warg, but there is no Evolve chance. The Gryphon, though, is the only unit that does NOT need an evolve trait, largely because they won’t see much fighting, imo, since they are used as scouts.

    Now, I don’t think that Eldritch is bad – it’s more that Wild is too good. It sounds somewhat silly, but if *I* werde to change something, I would remove the Shock Serpent and 2 of the Spiders from Wild, reducing the chance to get something really useful, giving over the Elephant and/or the Blight Tusk instead, having a slight chance to get a T2. Then I would transfer the 2 Spiders and the Shock to Eldritch, making it DEFINITELY the better spell and preferable to Wild, no matter what.

    #216416

    NINJEW
    Member

    70 cp to get a t1 unit sounds like a pretty shit deal, even if it does evolve

    #216432

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Spiders and Serpents are worth it. It’s no shit deal. T1, T2, who cares? Nothing easier than webbing an Elephant and killing it.

    #216446

    Gloweye
    Member

    Eldritch Animal:

    Dire Panther
    Elephant
    Mammoth
    Gryphon (x3)
    Blight Tusk Boar
    Bleak Warg
    Dire Bear

    Where is Polar bear? I saw him a few times…

    Whoops. My bad. I missed him in there…

    In case anyone wants to know, these lists can be gotten from the editor. Just get inside a map, go to packages, and enable Halfling and Necromancer DLC’s.

    After go to Tools –> Set Viewer. The aformentioned sets are for example CALLELDRITCHANIMAL_GROUP_CAT. These contain the lists, and weights are made by including a unit multiple times.

    #216454

    quo
    Member

    AD summons are FINE. I don’t know why anyone would get the idea they would all have to be equally strong. Also, “working” with animals is part of the AD’s job description.
    Gryphons are amazing, as they are air defense units. They ARE a bit on the fragile side, but gaving a couple of Gryphons gives you great eyes and ears and makes spying on you not an easy task
    Animals are just that, so you can expect them to function not so well on their own, but all the better with decent tutelage. Awaken Spirit and Savage Rage are pretty massive stuff.

    Well I’m going to start by saying that it’s possible I am just never going to like the Arch Druid class. So that’s the basis I am coming from. Maybe some people do and it is fine as is. That is why I am not gun-ho about changing things.

    But I will stay for me AD is easily the most unrewarding class to play, largely due to the Wheel of Fortune nature of the summons. Especially in the early game, when I am struggling to find enough mana to cover all assets and keep rolling boars and dire penguins who, while not strictly terrible units, do not seem to justify their upkeep cost. I feel like my reaction to casting a spell shouldn’t simply be “Great, let me suicide this unit or just delete it and recast.”

    The fact that Animals can be buffed is irrelevant to me. All units can be buffed. A Warlord can buff his Scout unit for example. The Animal buffs are good and I suppose you could have a Warlord/AD combo buff one super high due to stacking bonuses. That still doesn’t justify it to me, IMO.

    Gryphons would be okay units if I could predict when I was going to get one. But as it is, they show up when they feel like it. They are, strictly speaking, “better” than Cherubs or Crows, except Cherubs and Crows are predictable. I am not going to be trying to summon a flying Scout only to be surprised and summon a Boar, or vice versa.

    Lastly there’s the issue of immersion and boredom. The Tiger unit does not feel like a Tiger. It’s like a horse. The boar is also like a horse. Pretty much all the Animal units play like horses, or else Crossbowmen. Just not a lot of interesting stuff going on. Spiders I guess are okay. Add the boredom of rolling any particular animal to the randomness of it and it’s a recipe for a class I struggle to make it past turn 10 without losing interest and quitting.

    Just my 0.02.

    #216458

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Well. You can sum this up by saying, there are interesting units to summon, ok units and boring/lame units.
    Imo, having a basic wild animal spell that comes up with lame units is ok, considering Raise Militia or the designated Scouts of Rogues and the like. As it is, they double in function. You can use them all as scouts OR in an army, Spiders being excellent, Serpents Excellent but slow except water-going.
    Keep in mind, it STARTS summoning only, they have a double-function and a Spider is definitely a better combat unit than a Grimbeak.

    So Summon Wild animal is excellent for a basic beginner spell.

    Eldritch animal gives you an array of T2 animals. Now cost-wise Eldritch is the better deal (Upkeep and casting difference to what you get in sheer strength), but of course the evolvers of Wild Animal are more flashy and interesting; summoning one Bleak Warg after another, just to get a Blight tusker in between is somewhat … underwhelming, I’ll give you that.
    I don’t see them evolving, though. Bleak Warg evolves into Mother-of-all-Wargs? Nah.
    So, as I said, having worse chances to get an evolcve creature on Wild, and save evolves as an alternative to T2 animal would spice things somewhat up.

    Generally speaking, I have to say that I find AD summons very strong, because they are so handy and cheap.

    #216459

    ExNihil
    Member

    I love AD, its consistently a top class with interesting mechanics and some very good synergies.

    I don’t have a problem with summon wild animal – you only get a t3 after the evolution of spiders/snakes and no longer land t4 units as you once did in Vanilla (snakes that is). These units are also quite squishy and don’t survive auto very well at all. It might be a good thing to nerf webbing touch a little bit though, it is a bit too effective. Also the size of the unit being webbed should be a factor – I think it should be impossible to web elephants, mammoths and other large targets using baby spiders (not queens though). Basically the mechanics of Swallow Whole, with “too big to swallow” should be implemented here.

    I do agree with @Jolly Joker that for 70CP Eldrich Animal isn’t very attractive. I find two problems here, first the price and second the units themselves. I would like to see these units buffed somewhat to make them more attractive, and the price upgraded of the spell upgraded as well to 80CP.

    Finally, I would like to breach another subject here – the balance of the Tigran Shaman. To put it concisely, I think its highly IMBA: the ability to transform to a Werebear, for a ranged unit with entangling touch, while replenishing health, is overwhelmingly powerful in comparison to what other Shamans get, and in fact relative to what other classes get as well. You basically get a powerful t3 support that transforms into a powerful t3 melee tank, for a price that is not prohibitive at all. This needs to be addressed somehow, and I wonder if any of you got input on this.

    #216466

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Well, I DO think, that Eldritch was more attractive with the array of flyers, but I also think that the spell is fairly priced – just not in comparison with Wild Animal.

    Wild Animal, imo, is, as I said DOUBLING in function. A Warg is a fine Scout, for example in the UG. If needed, it can serve in an army as well – it does have 3 action points, after all, and it is EXPENDABLE (in auto). Evolvers may have a hard time in auto in general, but that’s just part of the deal – they are squishy, AND try to web the enemy. If it works, fine, if not, that may be it – although the teleporting spiders are pretty scary.

    So with a view on Auto Wild Animal becomes a bit less attractive, while Eldritch gains because you get pretty fast and pretty solid T2 units your early armies can work with: an Elephant is a passable Cavalry.

    Bottom line is, the spells are probably ok as they are.

    The Tigram Shaman costs 190 to produce which is not prohibitive (160 or 190), but can make a 1-turn difference. Of course they are good – but for that price you can expect something. In reality Were Bear is something like self-healing first and foremost, and what is a bit awkward is the fact that there is no going back. So if you are not wounded, changing into a wear bear makes no sense: you simply turn into a T3 animal which isn’t worth the price. So that ability is best used after having used abilities or ranged combat, when the enemy closes in. That makes it an outstanding unit – but it’s basically just the AD Class upgrade of the Mystic.
    So the only thing debatable is the price, which I find rather high, considering that Shaman costs only 350 research.

    #216467

    quo
    Member

    What was the lore reason the Tigran Shaman is the one that turns into a bear? I’m not asking that it be removed, but of all the race + Druid combos that particular one strikes me as strange.

    #216473

    ExNihil
    Member

    The Tigram Shaman costs 190 to produce which is not prohibitive (160 or 190), but can make a 1-turn difference. Of course they are good – but for that price you can expect something. In reality Were Bear is something like self-healing first and foremost, and what is a bit awkward is the fact that there is no going back. So if you are not wounded, changing into a wear bear makes no sense: you simply turn into a T3 animal which isn’t worth the price. So that ability is best used after having used abilities or ranged combat, when the enemy closes in. That makes it an outstanding unit – but it’s basically just the AD Class upgrade of the Mystic.

    Ahhmm… What?

    Tigran Shaman: 8 melee damage (x3), 8 blight damage on poison bolts (x3). 60HP, 11def, 11res. Has Predator and Athletics.

    Dire Bear: 18 melee damage (x3), 70HP, 12def, 10res. Has Predator, Athletics and Bloodthirsty.

    Transformation does not consume action points. What does this mean? It means that the Shaman can use ranged until the enemy is close enough, and then transform into a very powerful damage dealer – with upgraded HP and defense as well, while healing some HP or complementing its own HP to the bear maximum, and engage in melee. This also means that whenever fighting enemies with blight resistance, which are quite common in game, the Tigran Shaman can simply transform into a unit with the killing capacity of a strong t3 racial unit.

    Also consider the fact that bears have Bloodthirsty, which means they can synergize with archer units with inflict bleeding wounds to inflict even higher damage. Also, while in bear form they can now receive Savage Rage and/or be Awakened to inflict even more damage.

    Finally, if you got a leveled shaman, the corresponding animal will be levelled as well! And I have heard from a friend that it might actually be possible to level as a shaman and than as a bear, thus getting 2 medals par battle! This last one is certainly a bug if it is true, it needs to be tested. Also, IIRC, the bear form retains whatever buffs were previously applied to the shaman, as well as alignment spec. bonuses (life steal, better crits. etc.). I am uncertain about MCU bonuses but that might also apply (never tried it).

    I therefore do not think that this ability is *primarily* a heal, and if you have been using it like this then I think you have been using it wrong.

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