AD Summons

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This topic contains 163 replies, has 21 voices, and was last updated by  ExNihil 7 years, 1 month ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 31 through 60 (of 164 total)
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  • #216479

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    As I said, it’s the Class version Upgrade of the Tigran Mystic. (How about that one with OP?)

    Look, you come with too many IFs. The unit is a T3 support, and the only thing the unit has FOR SURE is a self-heal for 15 points, action-point-free, and following that a turn as a T3. If the battle continues it’s a very expensive T3 that now misses the Shaman to be awakened, no going back possible.

    So the advantage here is, that the unit has a function beyond support, but if it uses that it ceases to be a support as well.
    Keep in mind that you can get Dire Bears already with Eldritch Animal.

    #216483

    ExNihil
    Member

    There aren’t a lot of its here, there many possibilities, the minimum is a transformation from a ranged unit into a strong melee unit that can be further enhanced through AD leader/heroes and magic. This makes the already formidable shaman in its Tigran variety into the most versatile t3 unit in the game, able in wall defense just as well as pitched battle and one of the hardest hitting malee units period. Also consider that this unit takes one slot, serving as support and when advantageous as a brawler, and all for gold rather than mana upkeep.

    #216517

    Zaskow
    Member

    I don’t see them evolving, though. Bleak Warg evolves into Mother-of-all-Wargs? Nah.
    So, as I said, having worse chances to get an evolcve creature on Wild, and save evolves as an alternative to T2 animal would spice things somewhat up.

    No one asked evolving here. Some animals from Eldricht are just crap. Look.
    Dire panther – one of the acceptable variants here. Pounce and tigran features make them interesting and useful.
    Bleak Warg – piece of crap, honestly. He is weaker than Fire hound even (however, units are pretty similar and have same cost). He could be buffed somehow by adding abilities or stats. He is warg, right? Why then he couldn’t get First strike as original warg for example? Also he could gain chilling on veteran, for example.
    Blight Tusk Boar – one more boring units. Give him additional poison debuff and fast healing as original boars have.
    Dire bear – best unit here, nothing to say.
    Mammoth/Elephant – why both? Leave one unit and you’ll have higher chance to summon better unit.
    Gryphon – at least AD gets decent scout. However, gold wyvern was more interesting, because invulnerable to lost souls stacks.
    Polar bear – actually, I’d like to see him instead bleak warg.

    What was the lore reason the Tigran Shaman is the one that turns into a bear? I’m not asking that it be removed, but of all the race + Druid combos that particular one strikes me as strange.

    No lore reasons here. It’s just affinity with racial support.

    #216518

    Bob5
    Member

    Tigran Shaman already got nerfed a bit. Their bear form can be awakened, but to do so you need non-Tigran Shaman (as the Tigrans themselves don’t get it) or an AD hero/leader. Overall I think Tigran AD is a good AD, but inferior to Elves. Tigran Shaman is great, but it’s also the most expensive one and I think sacrificing Awaken Spirit should at least be included, it also thins the ability to your other animal summons.

    #216519

    Zaskow
    Member

    Overall I think Tigran AD is a good AD, but inferior to Elves

    Elven shaman is mediocre comparing with Tigran, because Dire bear is extremely good unit, especially on elite.

    #216522

    Lykus
    Member

    Overall I think Tigran AD is a good AD, but inferior to Elves

    Elven shaman is mediocre comparing with Tigran, because Dire bear is extremely good unit, especially on elite.

    He only said that Elven AD is superior to tigran AD not the shaman.

    Baby Reed Serpent
    Baby Shock Serpent
    Boar
    Dire Penguin
    Dread Spider Baby
    Hunter Spider Baby
    Tiger
    Vampire Spider Baby
    Warg

    Honestly, I’d cut this list a bit. Boar, Dire pinguin and Warg are crap. Other animal can evolve or at least don’t suck so much in combats.

    Dire Panther
    Elephant
    Mammoth
    Gryphon (x3)
    Blight Tusk Boar
    Bleak Warg
    Dire Bear

    Same problem – Boar and warg are sorts of crap. Decision is obvious – buff or delete.

    Removing these animals would just create a potential OP spell, since you only would get great animals. Randomness is part of the game and esspecially of the AD.

    #216532

    ExNihil
    Member

    Polar bear – actually, I’d like to see him instead bleak warg.

    Bleak Warg – piece of crap, honestly. He is weaker than Fire hound even (however, units are pretty similar and have same cost). He could be buffed somehow by adding abilities or stats. He is warg, right? Why then he couldn’t get First strike as original warg for example? Also he could gain chilling on veteran, for example.
    Blight Tusk Boar – one more boring units. Give him additional poison debuff and fast healing as original boars have.

    +1

    And increase the cost of the spell to 80 or 90CP

    #216553

    Zaskow
    Member

    Removing these animals would just create a potential OP spell, since you only would get great animals. Randomness is part of the game and esspecially of the AD.

    Due to your logic Summon Phantasm warrior and Summon Node serpent are OP spells, right?

    #216554

    NINJEW
    Member

    phantasms are kind of amazing

    phantasms op wouldn’t be a terrible position to have

    the point thought is that AD’s summons aren’t as good as Sorc’s, because AD isn’t a straight summoner class. It’s a hybrid class of all the non-necro classes. it can do summoning like Sorc (but not as well or consistently) and has powerful produced units like Dread and Warlord (but not as good) and it can pull sneaky concealment bullshit (but not as well as Rogue) and has a fair amount of buffs and support upgrades (but not as many as theocrat)

    #216555

    ExNihil
    Member

    I agree, it should stay as random as it is. I do think though that t2 wargs and boars need to be better ability wise than their t1 variety.

    Also the only real parrallel is Summon Fantastic creature.

    #216559

    NINJEW
    Member

    I agree, it should stay as random as it is. I do think though that t2 wargs and boars need to be better ability wise than their t1 variety.

    ????????????

    how are they not????

    what????????

    #216561

    Lykus
    Member

    Removing these animals would just create a potential OP spell, since you only would get great animals. Randomness is part of the game and esspecially of the AD.

    Due to your logic Summon Phantasm warrior and Summon Node serpent are OP spells, right?

    Please explain to me how you see a connection to the AD spell.

    Are you saying that a spell from a pure summoner class were you get a well defined good unit is comparable to a spell from a class wehre randomness is the basic that can give you crappy, ok, good and very good units?

    If you are saying that phantasm and node serpents are OP than maybe you should start a thread abput that.

    #216563

    Zaskow
    Member

    the point thought is that AD’s summons aren’t as good as Sorc’s, because AD isn’t a straight summoner class. It’s a hybrid class of all the non-necro classes. it can do summoning like Sorc (but not as well or consistently) and has powerful produced units like Dread and Warlord (but not as good) and it can pull sneaky concealment bullshit (but not as well as Rogue) and has a fair amount of buffs and support upgrades (but not as many as theocrat)

    AD is more summoning class, than producing. AD is piece of crap without summons and he has only 2 class units. He had to have buildable Horned God (for example) to be hybrid class.

    I agree, it should stay as random as it is. I do think though that t2 wargs and boars need to be better ability wise than their t1 variety.

    Actually, I’d like to see such scheme:
    Wild Animal:
    Baby Reed Serpent
    Baby Shock Serpent
    Boar
    Dire Penguin
    Dread Spider Baby
    Hunter Spider Baby
    Tiger (x2)
    Vampire Spider Baby
    Warg
    Eldritch Animal:
    Dire Panther
    Elephant OR Mammoth
    Gryphon (x3)
    Blight Tusk Boar
    Bleak Warg
    Polar bear
    Dire Bear

    I suggest this list only if some animals won’t gain any buffs. I think list provides enough diversity and has really useful animals.

    Are you saying that a spell from a pure summoner class were you get a well defined good unit is comparable to a spell from a class wehre randomness is the basic that can give you crappy, ok, good and very good units?

    Actually, yes. They have same cost. Also you forget that getting crappy units is just a waste of time, mana and CP, while other classes don’t suffer from this.
    Necromancer isn’t pure summoner class too, but he always gets predictable and useful units.

    #216570

    ExNihil
    Member

    I disagree with your assessment of AD. I think its one of the most powerful classes in game, always has been. The randomness of these spells is a balancing mechanism. AD has some decent production/growth capacities and Lykus’ analysis was quite precise IMO.

    Basically what you would like is a t1 summon that gets you spider/snake/tiger 100% of the time. This is OP – Spider and Snake can evolve, tiger is quite strong in itself. To this add the ability of AD to buff animals with magic and abilities and some synergies with blight / bleeding wounds. Given it is not as reliable as Sorcerer, but the mechanics here are different and the end result is as powerful if not more so depending on the map configuration.

    I do think Boar and Warg are too weak in the present meta, I wouldn’t mind seeing them somewhat buffed. I would do it like this:

    Warg: Gets Predator, Bloodthirsty, Athletics and Inflict Bleeding Wounds at baseline, loses First Strike and Overwhelm (both of which don’t really fit.) Receives Killing Momentum at Gold.

    Bleak Warg: Gets Predator, Bloodthirsty, Athletics and Inflict Chilling at baseline, keeps overwhelm, loses frostbite, receives killing momentum at gold.

    Boar: +2 physical damage, gets Charge and Overwhelm at baseline.

    Blight Tusk Boar: +1 physical damage, gets Charge, Overwhelm and inflict Noxious Vulnerability at baseline.

    #216572

    NINJEW
    Member

    dude dire penguins are great what is your problem with them

    dual channel damage and lifesteal. they’re the summon wild animal powerhouse. if you savage rage one it becomes an ungodly monster, far beyond any other t1 animal buffed

    also no, the simple fact that they’re producing both class t1s and class t3s makes them a hybrid class, sorry man

    #216580

    Hatmage
    Member

    If the Mana cost of both spells were greatly increased, the list alterations you propose could make sense. But as things stand, baby spiders are essentially better wisps (at least in the sense that they don’t have as many hard counters, the wisp is a great unit, and can do well in a fair fight against spiders without the AD resistance buffs), baby serpents are great flankers and tigers and dire penguins are the equal of most infantry, with only wargs and boars being bad results.
    And one of those bad results is a T1 unit that can charge, can’t be countered by polearms and moves at high speed. A great flanker for its’ upkeep, if not the sort of powerhouse this spell tends to summon. The other has first strike and overwhelm, giving the AD a solid counter to pikeneers.
    Compare these troops to crows, drones and wisps, which while good, don’t give you the spectacular range of tools this one spammable spell does. Summon wild does not need a buff. It probably still wouldn’t need a buff even if spiders didn’t evolve. Serpents do kind of need it, but even baby spiders are deadly to corporeal things.

    Edit: This was directed at Zaskow’s list of alterations. The sidegrade ExNihil proposed for wargs actually makes a lot of sense, at least insofar as I don’t like the idea of a mount that acts as a pike counter once it loses its’ rider.

    #216581

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    As I said, I don’t think AD Summons need something.
    The variety is actually a good thing and nothing is “crappy” – they are all usable. Keep in mind that the purpose of these spells can’t be to give you Warlord-like combat units. You fill your ranks with animals, use them as scouts as well and evolve a couple, until you get to the T3 and T4 stuff.
    The real strength is the fact that you CAN produce units AT ALL without needing the town. Producing the odd Hunter beefs your animal army up – but compare that with, say, a Rogue. Producing the odd Scoundrel won’t beef up anything.
    Differently phrased, your low cost “unit production” spells are Wild Animal, Hunter, Eldritch Animal, and between those 3 you have a lot of tools to work with, whether a Bleak Warg is comparatively weak or not. An early stack consisting of A Bleak Warg, a Blight Tusker, 2 Spiders, a Hunter and a Tiger looks crappy, but it is a full stack, instead of just one produced unit that can clear normally defended sites, kill Hideouts and roaming Scoundrels and will present you with 2 T3 spiders 10 turns later.

    So having all “quality summons” is somewhat the wrong idea here.

    Admittedly, autocombat makes this a more bloody thing – but that’s true for everything else as well. Auto IS bloody, no matter what, and if you “give” AD something just for autocombat, all fights with those animals on the other side will be bloodier as well (as is the case with Wargs), so it would not only be a buff for AD, it would also be a nerf for everyone else.

    #216585

    Zaskow
    Member

    I disagree with your assessment of AD. I think its one of the most powerful classes in game, always has been.

    As any summoning class lose of AD is almost imminent when fighting with production class. You can summon only 1 creature a time for 3 turns, while your opponent-warlord/dread/theo can build 1 unit a time for 3 turns in 5-7 cities at once.

    The randomness of these spells is a balancing mechanism.

    Randomness can’t be balancing mechanism. It ruins strategic gameplay and prediction.

    This is OP – Spider and Snake can evolve

    Snakes aren’t very strong units themselves. Often die at auto. Evolving of shock baby-serpents is extremely difficult at auto. Spiders is better though he likes to die at auto too. All this units are similar stuff to most producing class t1 units.

    Warg: Gets Predator, Bloodthirsty, Athletics and Inflict Bleeding Wounds at baseline, loses First Strike and Overwhelm (both of which don’t really fit.) Receives Killing Momentum at Gold.

    It’s not very balanced to give Bloodthirsty and Inflict Bleeding Wounds at one time. Also main problem of “only 8 dmg melee” stays.

    Boar: +2 physical damage, gets Charge and Overwhelm at baseline.

    Why you miff poor boars comparing with wargs? 🙂

    #216590

    Zaskow
    Member

    If the Mana cost of both spells were greatly increased, the list alterations you propose could make sense.

    Acceptable, but not very much. Don’t forget – all these units are t1.

    And one of those bad results is a T1 unit that can charge, can’t be countered by polearms and moves at high speed. A great flanker for its’ upkeep, if not the sort of powerhouse this spell tends to summon. The other has first strike and overwhelm, giving the AD a solid counter to pikeneers.

    Problem of all these units is their low stats. They suck against most racial t1s (I say about wargs and boars).

    Compare these troops to crows, drones and wisps, which while good, don’t give you the spectacular range of tools this one spammable spell does.

    These spells give you scouts. Not more. While AD suffers from absence of normal scout.

    The variety is actually a good thing and nothing is “crappy” – they are all usable.

    Answer on simple question plz. Do you have in your game endless mana?

    The real strength is the fact that you CAN produce units AT ALL without needing the town.

    Look at this as weakness in late game. You can “produce” only 1 unit at 1 time even you have enough mana/gold. It’s not a problem in early/middle game, but becomes problem when you notice that you’re overwhelmed by enemy T4s.

    #216592

    ExNihil
    Member

    As any summoning class lose of AD is almost imminent when fighting with production class. You can summon only 1 creature a time for 3 turns, while your opponent-warlord/dread/theo can build 1 unit a time for 3 turns in 5-7 cities at once.

    Wow, I don’t know if its wise to get into this discussion. I’ll say I have had this discussion at great length prior on several occasions. I once had to prove to Bouh that Sorcerer was OP through multiple pages of calculations. Let me say this- in my MP experience, and that of the best players I know as well, AD and Sorcerer are two of the top classes. In vanilla they were much more powerful, now they are semi-balanced, but this depends on the map type- in continents and islands both are still significantly better than the other classes due to their mobility advantages and the ability to produce on the go. Sorcerer and AD can also produce units in cities, summoning time varies with CP and the summon itself. I always manage to summon a unit in every given turn, and when I tech to t4 it doesn’t take more than 3 turns to produce one at the slowest, and I can than reduce this to 2 turns within a few turns. Summoners also have a huge research advantage, which means you will be producing top tier units much earlier if you play well. Finally, production takes time to set up and thus the advantage of some production based classes (WL and DN) doesn’t kick in until later on.

    Even at 20 CP you can get a wild animal every 2nd turn, that is a fact. With 30cp you can get one 2 out of 3 turns, this is significant. I invite you backtrack in DB to my previous balancing threads and take a look there.

    Randomness can’t be balancing mechanism. It ruins strategic gameplay and prediction.

    It actually is a balancing mechanism, and it demands a different strategy than that of Sorcerer. IMO it works well.

    Snakes aren’t very strong units themselves. Often die at auto. Evolving of shock baby-serpents is extremely difficult at auto. Spiders is better though he likes to die at auto too. All this units are similar stuff to most producing class t1 units.

    Again, a balancing mechanism. Its either great baby snakes or evolving ones, I’d prefer the evolving version.

    It’s not very balanced to give Bloodthirsty and Inflict Bleeding Wounds at one time. Also main problem of “only 8 dmg melee” stays.

    Yet this solves the only 8 dmg melee problem as you put it, without committing to a straigt buff and not against all units. Thus it is a balanced buff that can be great or inconsequential – depending on the opponent and the rolls.

    Why you miff poor boars comparing with wargs?

    Not at all, I think charge is fitting, thus less is required. Also wargs are legendary wolves – huge and ferocious, they should be a bit more mean than Boars IMO.

    #216596

    Hatmage
    Member

    <
    Randomness can’t be balancing mechanism. It ruins strategic gameplay and prediction.

    So, are you in favour of some sort of revision to Luck? It’s far worse than the randomness factor in summon wild animal, and if you consider wasting a spell to get a boar bad, how about wasting a fireball on a halfling?

    #216607

    NINJEW
    Member

    Sorc and AD are literally the top MP classes what the fuck

    summoning is a huge strength because it gives you a amssive early game unit lead, which lets you conquer more territory faster and have more cities sooner. then you’re out producing the production classes.

    sorc and ad are not underpowered lol zaskow are you kidding me

    #216610

    Ericridge
    Member

    Snakes not scary? Impossible. Even poison spit from baby snakes can be nasty.
    Then Mature snakes hit pretty hard.

    And finally king reeds have fearsome.

    Shock serpents. Ugh. I do not like fighting them at all. I attempt to kill them at safe range all the time.

    #216649

    shifted
    Member

    Gryphon (x3)
    Gryphon (x3)
    Gryphon (x3)
    Gryphon (x3)
    Gryphon (x3)
    Gryphon (x3)

    whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

    #216650

    shifted
    Member

    To actually contribute: they’re not bad. I mostly hate them because I end up with a stack of them when all I’m trying to do is get a damn bear out. Their stats are actually quite respectable, and flying means having a stack of them over a stack of Bleak Wargs or whatever is actually not a bad thing.

    Really though, there are things from that summon pool I’d rather see on my front line, and that’s what Druid animals are there for. Front line troops they are not- they still can’t trade blows with midgame beef. They have their uses though and invariably ending up with 4-6 Gryphons means I’m finally starting to strategize around them instead of saying “weee another not-bear / expensive scout”.

    #216657

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    “weee another not-bear / expensive scout”.

    “Scout” is actually the wrong name for them, imo. I would describe their function as “scouting Scout Hunter-Killers” …

    #216658

    Sorc and AD are literally the top MP classes what the fuck

    summoning is a huge strength because it gives you a amssive early game unit lead, which lets you conquer more territory faster and have more cities sooner. then you’re out producing the production classes.

    sorc and ad are not underpowered lol zaskow are you kidding me

    Leave him alone. He has his own special copy of the game, don’t you know?

    #216659

    ExNihil
    Member

    I like Gryphons and I’m almost always happy to get ’em, they are very very useful and you can never have too much scouting. I would though love to be able to evolve ’em to King Gryphons, perhaps while reducing their base stats a bit or the chance of getting them at the expanse of Blight Tusk Boars.

    #216677

    Zaskow
    Member

    Wow, I don’t know if its wise to get into this discussion.

    Off-topic:
    I think it’s necessary. All people here tend to ignore reality of late games where producing classes have HUGE advantage. Actually, summoning classes have a very limited peak of highest performance (around 15-20 turns). If they don’t use them correctly and wise, producing class just overspamm them with T4s later.
    Situation becomes much worse when producing classes find in ruins some secret summon spells (Obsidian dragon or Phoenix).
    In short. AD and Sorc have highest performance at 35-50 turns, then they’re outnumbered.

    So, are you in favour of some sort of revision to Luck? It’s far worse than the randomness factor in summon wild animal, and if you consider wasting a spell to get a boar bad, how about wasting a fireball on a halfling?

    We don’t discuss Luck mechanics here.

    summoning is a huge strength because it gives you a amssive early game unit lead, which lets you conquer more territory faster and have more cities sooner. then you’re out producing the production classes.

    You said “early game” yourself.

    sorc and ad are not underpowered lol zaskow are you kidding me

    Try them in late game against dread/warlord with massed machines/manticores.

    Snakes not scary? Impossible. Even poison spit from baby snakes can be nasty.

    Try them in auto.

    Leave him alone. He has his own special copy of the game, don’t you know?

    Your noobish opinion is very important for me.

    #216679

    ExNihil
    Member

    Pls… keep it friendly – Zaskow, BBB.

    Anyhow, I don’t think people here are unfamiliar with late-game mechanics, and I don’t think Sorcerer and AD are that powerful either BUT. There is currently a huge IMBA in the game due to the sea travel mechanics, which means that on any map other than UG or topside Land (i.e. continents and Islands), all classes except AD and Sorcerer are screwed seriously.

    WL is probably now the most balanced class IMO, it has very efficient early game and builds very powerfully. AD is excellent all-over, Sorcerer requires some skill but is also extremely powerful. Theo is good in all stages of the game but is excellent in the early game, outperforming Sorcerer and AD until these have sufficient mana and CP. Yes, if you get to late-game on large land maps WL and Dread outperform AD and Sorcerer (Sorcerer more than AD, Gods destroy machines very effectively) but the same is true of smaller maps or quicker games. Rogue and Necro are problematic – Rogue because it is supposed to be weaker but cleverer, so no issue here, and Necro because its IMBA at the moment respective of other classes, and my guess is it will receive quite a bit of attention from the devs in the next patch (as to be expected of a new class OFC).

    We don’t discuss Luck mechanics here.

    Randomness is part of the game and an inherent part of the AD summoning since Vanilla, ask any competent AD player and they will tell you it works just fine. Like Rogue it requires a certain mindset, if you try to play it like Sorcerer it doesn’t work, and vice-versa. I don’t find a problem here at all, only with some of the units themselves, and TBH I have found this very same problem in Vanilla (and wrote about it).

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