AD Summons

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This topic contains 163 replies, has 21 voices, and was last updated by  ExNihil 7 years, 1 month ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 61 through 90 (of 164 total)
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  • #216683

    Zaskow
    Member

    Randomness is part of the game and an inherent part of the AD summoning since Vanilla, ask any competent AD player and they will tell you it works just fine. Like Rogue it requires a certain mindset, if you try to play it like Sorcerer it doesn’t work, and vice-versa. I don’t find a problem here at all, only with some of the units themselves, and TBH I have found this very same problem in Vanilla (and wrote about it).

    Did I cancel randomness in my suggestion completely? I just don’t see a sense to have a full crap in one of the most important spell of AD in early game.

    #216688

    shifted
    Member

    I just don’t see a sense to have a full crap in one of the most important spell of AD in early game.

    You’re right. It should probably be a separate spell, Summon Dooky. The flavor text will just be your next post.

    #216691

    Lykus
    Member

    I just don’t see a sense to have a full crap in one of the most important spell of AD in early game.

    You’re right. It should probably be a separate spell, Summon Dooky. The flavor text will just be your next post.

    +1

    #216693

    Bob5
    Member

    I just want to add that AD is in no way UP. It got quite a decent boost in patch 1.5, where it got a buff to Insect Plague, Dread Spider Queens getting Fear Strike at gold, Hunter Spider Queens getting extra HP, Shaman got buffed with Awaken Spirit, the Horned God got really buffed with Entangle Strike and the boar summon at gold, Dire Bear addition to the Eldritch Animal summon, and perhaps the largest upgrade for multi is PBEM launch. In manual combat while clearing it’s much easier to evolve the animals. Serpents die quite often in auto, but in manual an evolving strategy is fairly solid, as long as you get a bit of luck with getting the evolving summons.

    #216699

    Zaskow
    Member

    You’re right. It should probably be a separate spell, Summon Dooky. The flavor text will just be your next post.

    Another clown?

    I just want to add that AD is in no way UP.

    AD is definitely UP in LATE game, when producing classes-opponents begin to produce t3/t4s non-stop.

    #216700

    ExNihil
    Member

    Wouldn’t any of the ideas I suggested in the OP work to help this? I mean to tie summoning to some degree to Geographic tiles, and/or shift some unit(s) to city production?

    #216701

    Zaskow
    Member

    Wouldn’t any of the ideas I suggested in the OP work to help this? I mean to tie summoning to some degree to Geographic tiles, and/or shift some unit(s) to city production?

    I support the idea when summons are dependable from terrain, because it makes spell more predictable.
    Also moving Horned Gods to production helps AD a lot in long game, when he is overwhelmed by production class. For example, Rogue has Magical origin creatures are producible in cities (Shadow Stalkers).

    #216706

    Bob5
    Member

    I’d be careful with that, Entangling Strike heavily boosted the Horned God. I’m fairly sure they fairly reliably beat all other class T4s except Reapers one on one. Manticores depends on luck whether or not Entangling Strike hits. But they’re one of the most mobile class T4s, only Manticores are more mobile (and Horned God is faster on water and in the snow).

    #216708

    Lykus
    Member

    Wouldn’t any of the ideas I suggested in the OP work to help this? I mean to tie summoning to some degree to Geographic tiles, and/or shift some unit(s) to city production?

    I support the idea when summons are dependable from terrain, because it makes spell more predictable.
    Also moving Horned Gods to production helps AD a lot in long game, when he is overwhelmed by production class. For example, Rogue has Magical origin creatures are producible in cities (Shadow Stalkers).

    So you are saying that the AD is underpowered in late game because of summons. Then I would propose that the Dread gets a spell “build machine”, which lets it summon/maufacture a machine (golem, cannon, treb or flametank), because it is underpowered in the early game. Since production classes are compared to summoning classes weak in teh early game I think this is only fair and would help the Dread.

    A similar spell could also be implemented for WL.

    Ok to the terrain idea. I think this is pretty great! Personally I wouldn’t complety cross out some summons, but reduce their percentage.

    #216717

    NINJEW
    Member

    Necro should probably get a “summon army” spell to compensate for its early game weakness

    Classes being balanced around being better at different stages of the game is just crazy. I stand by my good friend zaskow on this, dreadnought definitely needs an early game buff to help it compete with summoning classes. Maybe engineers should have their blunderbuss damage doubled and their cost halved?

    #216718

    Ericridge
    Member

    I just don’t see a sense to have a full crap in one of the most important spell of AD in early game.

    You’re right. It should probably be a separate spell, Summon Dooky. The flavor text will just be your next post.

    +1

    +2 for making me laugh hard.

    #216746

    Smaug3
    Member

    Wouldn’t any of the ideas I suggested in the OP work to help this? I mean to tie summoning to some degree to Geographic tiles, and/or shift some unit(s) to city production?

    I like the idea of geography tying in with the summon, although I’d say not to remove anything from the pool, just add in an extra point for that unit if you’re in the right terrain. Making it so that some units are impossible is a terrible idea. What if you’re stuck in the blight thanks to some bad positioning? Do you really want to not be getting anything other than Blight Tusk Boars?

    #216754

    NINJEW
    Member

    Another clown?

    You have to admit, he’s a pretty good clown

    #216766

    Fenraellis
    Member

    If this thread had not devolved so badly, I would be more willing to keep participating.

    (that being said…)

    Going back to when the thread was actually on topic, ExNihil, while I think your ideas for Boars/Wargs are kind of interesting, the Warg idea in particular makes me thing a bit too much of the Tiger as it is.

    Now, I could see Wargs and Boars swapping Crippling and Bleeding Wounds, such that Wargs, like wolves, would likely be more inclined to hamstring opponents. Likewise, Boars would be more likely to gore opponents. Perhaps these abilities could be obtained at a lower rank with a minor(1~2) damage increase, or even unranked with no changes. The latter being because the other animals are generally considered better anyway. I suppose new Elite rank abilities would have to be chosen, but that’s not so hard, really.

    Perhaps it would directly translate to the T2 Boar/Warg, but that seems rather blunt.

    Not even going to pretend that Archdruids are weak later…

    #216767

    Wait, zaz wants produced The Horned Gods? That would be the most ridiculous thing ever (especially since human production rg stuff would work). They have an undispellable paralyze, a long range attack, and a god pig at gold. They have to be rare, or it’s just silly.

    I would also like to compliment from nothing for changing their opinion (as to the AD) after contrary experience publicly on an internet forum. The end is nigh indeed.

    Anyway, giving the wargs predator would be fine purely on lore grounds.

    As for the bear shaman, it lost awaken spirit (which is a vast amount of the value of normal shaman and prevents self buffing) and the bear was slowed down a bit. It’s expensive to rely on it for more than a fun supplement, and thus a legitimate trade off.

    AD is also a bit like the necro in that the bottom tier non evolve animals are “throw aways” who are very cheap and not great. However, awaken spirit and beast mastery make them a potential threat to higher tier units (especially deadly with savage rage atop it).

    That is most of the power of call beast horde. You get a lot of animals, and can mass buff them with shaman and leaders.

    #216768

    NINJEW
    Member

    I really want someone to tell me how Dire Penguins aren’t really good

    #216769

    Fenraellis
    Member

    I really want someone to tell me how Dire Penguins aren’t really good

    Somewhat curious myself. I mean, sure, if I have the means to Evolve, I would rather a Spider or Serpent, but if you just need a unit to fight with things, the Penguin is excellent. Only the Tiger is a better brawler, and that’s just because it has ridiculous stats for an Animal.

    #216775

    Zaskow
    Member

    Then I would propose that the Dread gets a spell “build machine”, which lets it summon/maufacture a machine (golem, cannon, treb or flametank), because it is underpowered in the early game. Since production classes are compared to summoning classes weak in teh early game I think this is only fair and would help the Dread.

    You didn’t play MP much, right?

    Wait, zaz wants produced The Horned Gods? That would be the most ridiculous thing ever (especially since human production rg stuff would work). They have an undispellable paralyze, a long range attack, and a god pig at gold. They have to be rare, or it’s just silly.

    So, you have never seen how your precious Horned Gods are outnumbered by Manticores or Juggers, right? Try to play AD with Horned Gods against competent mp-player (Abednego or Azzazir) and come later.

    Classes being balanced around being better at different stages of the game is just crazy. I stand by my good friend zaskow on this, dreadnought definitely needs an early game buff to help it compete with summoning classes. Maybe engineers should have their blunderbuss damage doubled and their cost halved?

    Moar shitty and “funny” suggestions, plz, as you always do.

    That is most of the power of call beast horde. You get a lot of animals, and can mass buff them with shaman and leaders.

    In fact a lot of people overestimate Call of beast horde. It’s just a big exp feeder. You get just 3 t1 or t2 animals in opposite sides of map with 0 action points. Do you really think that this could be such devastative as Mana core or Chaos rift?

    you just need a unit to fight with things, the Penguin is excellent

    But not better spiders with webs or snakes with spit. Spiders are best fighting t1 animals in AD arsenal. With evolving as bonus.

    #216779

    NINJEW
    Member

    Moar shitty and “funny” suggestions, plz, as you always do.

    hey man, i never told you to stop coming up with shitty suggestions, and you have at least three times my output

    So, you have never seen how your precious Horned Gods are outnumbered by Manticores or Juggers, right? Try to play AD with Horned Gods against competent mp-player (Abednego or Azzazir) and come later.

    it’s almost like dreadnought and warlord are late game classes

    #216782

    ExNihil
    Member

    @zaskow, please enough, everyone understands whats your position and now this is just really makes this thread unreadable and neither fun nor productive. If you have any other suggestions to bring forth please do so. If you want to argue about the AD being UP in the late-game, pls make a thread about it and let anyone who wants to argue with you go there – this thread is about the AD Summons and that’s it.

    If this thread had not devolved so badly, I would be more willing to keep participating.

    Doing my best here.

    I like the idea of geography tying in with the summon, although I’d say not to remove anything from the pool, just add in an extra point for that unit if you’re in the right terrain. Making it so that some units are impossible is a terrible idea. What if you’re stuck in the blight thanks to some bad positioning? Do you really want to not be getting anything other than Blight Tusk Boars?

    Absolutely, I agree this should be a chance modifier not a delimitation of the unit pool.

    Also, another idea that can tie in here is to make some animals – each for a single race – a city production. This would be a good way to give some races race specific units and to somewhat decrease the randomness of the AD Summons.

    By this I don’t mean that all races will receive animal production in cities, or not necessarily so, but rather that some races will receive a special animal production in cities: For example, Goblin AD might unlock the production of Blight Tusk Boars (given these are buffed in some way) upon research Produce Hunter or Summon Eldritch Animal. Frostling might unlock Bleak Warg or Polar Bear, Draconians will unlock Nightmare and so forth. This is a way to create a racial synergy where it doesn’t presently exist without actually offsetting, IMO, the current game-balance – none of these units is game breaking, but they do synergize with these races and go well with the concept. This could be done while giving all races a generic producible animal, say “tame warg” (given that this unit is created and the current version is updated) or something suchlike, or without doing so at all (keeping all ADs except the few racial special cases as pure animal summoners).

    Going back to when the thread was actually on topic, ExNihil, while I think your ideas for Boars/Wargs are kind of interesting, the Warg idea in particular makes me thing a bit too much of the Tiger as it is.

    Well, Tigers could receive pounce, while incurring a small nerf to their stats (-3 HP, or -1 def,) which I agree with some previous posts here is very fitting. They don’t have Inflict Bleeding Wounds until GM, so that’s not a problem really (also, the killing technique of Tigers is to suffocate an animal by crushing its windpipe, whereby Wolves literally tear the flash off their pray, biting and locking their jaws.) Also, there is a +4 physical damage, +2 def, +5 HP difference here for a t1 unit, the Warg and Boar are definitely UP for their tier/function, while the Tiger is currently good (hitting like a t1 racial melee unit and having the same kind of stats + very good mobility and can be further extended using awaken/savage rage). I think a minor buff (1-2 points damage as you suggested) doesn’t cut it really. I also agree with @zaskow that the t2 variants of Warg and Boar are UP, and thus have made some proposals about how to balance these. Whatever happens to the t1 variation, needs to doubly happen to the t2 variations, which are quizzically less able than the t1 variants (almost bare-bone animals at that).

    #216790

    Gloweye
    Member

    Doesn’t that tiger just warrant a small nerf? It could get a -2 to damage and -1 to Defense(seriously, who ever thought 10 was fitting for an animal? Only the snakes got that, and they’re 3 behind in damage), and still be the best brawler animal in the group.

    Keep in mind that Wild Animal is just as cheap as a scout summon spell, and while partly having that purpose, I don’t think anyone disagrees that it can do much more – just look at the evolving. Right now, AD is getting decent combat units at a pretty discount, so IMO they should actually be weaker than your average T1 infantry.

    That said, I could see Warg and Boar getting small buffs – Maybe Warg could trade it’s very annoying First Strike for a Athletics, which is more fitting IMO, and get a point of damage in the deal. Boar could do with some HP, boost it to around 50? (+6)

    I think the rest of Wild Animal is in a pretty neat place.

    #216792

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I like to disagree. There is nothing wrong with summoned stuff having different qualities, giving this an opportunity element. For the low cost you get a lot, and when the dust has settled you will let them fill a dual role anyway.
    There is nothing wrong with this, and debating over a Hitpoint or something…

    #216793

    ExNihil
    Member

    Doesn’t that tiger just warrant a small nerf? It could get a -2 to damage and -1 to Defense(seriously, who ever thought 10 was fitting for an animal? Only the snakes got that, and they’re 3 behind in damage), and still be the best brawler animal in the group.

    I can live with that, I would like seeing it receive Pounce as compensation, which fits the bill quite well. Alternatively, it wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing to upgrade tiger to t2 and give it a small buff to its stats (extra HP and one extra ability) as it is already nearly there. That is, if more animals are included in the t1 summon.

    As for Wargs, Sprint might fit on this unit as well. I do think it needs some buff to its core stats – perhaps +2 damage. Either way Inflict Bleeding Wounds on BL seems to me a fitting buff here.

    Keep in mind that Wild Animal is just as cheap as a scout summon spell, and while partly having that purpose, I don’t think anyone disagrees that it can do much more – just look at the evolving. Right now, AD is getting decent combat units at a pretty discount, so IMO they should actually be weaker than your average T1 infantry.

    Indeed, and except the Tiger all animals are, and even with Buffs they will remain so. The problem with animals is that they don’t do auto-combat well at all, this works excellent for evolving units, as it takes significant effort to evolve these animals in MP, but other units are really quite horrible in auto (also, I don’t think the AI uses Savage Rage and/or awaken as much as it should if at all.) Frankly I’m quite at a loss as to what can be done, except tweak the AI, in which case very little needs to be done – Although Summon Wild animals summons a semi-discardable animal unit that can scout, these units are not very good scouts at all, compared to proper scouts that is, and you need to use multiple units depending on the terrain. At the same time, the combat unit that are landed are also not very good in themselves, and so the result is ambiguous – it could be powerful, and it could be weak. I would prefer seeing the weakness somewhat reduced, and the strength as well. Yet, here I must recall Bouh and his endless chanting of “streamlining! Streamlining!” – this might actually become the case if one is not careful.

    #216937

    shifted
    Member

    There really aren’t enough animals to mess with the odds based on terrain. There’s not even one per terrain type. It’d really screw with balance.

    I think it would be cool to get an evolving animal from Gargantuan though. I only use Summon Wild like …3 times and my spiders/snakes always die to auto. Gargantuan Animals can actually survive basic clearing. You could take something like Blight/Bleak and make them evolve to a T3 on par with the Bear at gold.

    #216949

    ExNihil
    Member

    There really aren’t enough animals to mess with the odds based on terrain

    Its enough to decrease the chance of some animals on certain terrain and increase that of others to improve the mechanics of this spell IMO.

    Also, there is another option – there are more animals that could easily be introduced and be made available only on specific terrain types. Thus if you cast the spell on temperate terrain you get the default list, but if you cast on Volcanic you have a chance to net a Nightmare (for example) or Felhorse (depending on the spell we are talking about OFC).

    Gargantuan Animals can actually survive basic clearing. You could take something like Blight/Bleak and make them evolve to a T3 on par with the Bear at gold.

    I think what you meant is Eldritch animals survive clearing? Yes, I wouldn’t mind seeing a huge white Warg on the battlefield after it evolved. Yet, any changes of this type require extra work on the part of the devs and thus the chance of seeing them implemented are smaller – unless the graphics already exist that is, which I dunno.

    #216951

    shifted
    Member

    I think what you meant is Eldritch animals survive clearing? Yes, I wouldn’t mind seeing a huge white Warg on the battlefield after it evolved. Yet, any changes of this type require extra work on the part of the devs and thus the chance of seeing them implemented are smaller – unless the graphics already exist that is, which I dunno.

    Yes Eldritch, my mistake. I agree that it won’t happen at this stage, but that goes for pretty much any change now. Not sure the chances of X happening are even worth mentioning anymore.

    Summons based on terrain would have to be very minor for me not to oppose it. All it would take was one terrain’s animal being out of balance to be very destabilizing. Besides, what established problem would it even fix?

    #216979

    ExNihil
    Member

    It will somewhat reduce the randomness of these spells. For example, if you summon on blight you will have a higher chance of lending a blight dwelling animal. This helps Goblin AD due to the racial synergy with blight, for example. The same goes to summoning in the UG – you get a higher chance to lend a unit with cave crawling, which doesn’t slow you down and scouts well in the terrain.

    #216988

    NINJEW
    Member

    i’d always heard that gobling players want to get AWAY from blight damage, not get more of it, because they already have plenty of blight options from their racials and really need something to work with when they go up against a blight resistant opponent

    #217013

    ExNihil
    Member

    This might be true in some circumstances, but when you are fighting on blighted terrain you need blight liking and tolerant units to go along with this. Furhtermore, Goblins have very good synergies with blight, and they can make even a shite Blight Tusk Boar impressive with weaken on priests and Inflict Noxious vul. on other units. Same goes to Frostlings for example.

    #217018

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    It’s still a bad idea. Spiders in the underground? Gives playing Dwarv and Goblin AD a whole new dimension.
    Also, if you want to use a summon as a scout, you probably do not intend to use it for the terrain you are actually on.
    Just forget it. Bad idea.

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