AD Summons

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This topic contains 163 replies, has 21 voices, and was last updated by  ExNihil 6 years, 11 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 91 through 120 (of 164 total)
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  • #217024

    ExNihil
    Member

    Why? If you have a better chance to land spiders in the UG and snakes in topside this scheme will be balanced. Also the change doesn’t need to be drastic, you have 3 spider varieties, it could very easily be just one that has a higher chance of being summoned (2 appearances on the list.) As for the terrain you are in, you are wrong – you want animals both for scouting and for creeping, this helps both, not drastically but still. OFC you might think its a bad idea, and I invite you to forget it, but frankly I’m a little tired of your patronizing input, so please don’t tell me what to do.

    #217030

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    … you are wrong – you want… but frankly I’m a little tired of your patronizing input, so please don’t tell me what to do.

    You got to be kidding me.

    Show me ONE convincing point in favor of terrain dependent summoning. Less randomness? Bad idea when the summons are so different. What you don’t want is facing armies of spiders, because armies of spiders will always incur losses. You also dont want to be stuck with Bleak Wargs just because you play Frostling, and you don’t want to summon a Dire P everytime you are at sea regenerating. You also don’t want a series of Wargs on blight or a series of Boars on fertile or woods or whatever.

    WHERE IS THE GAIN?

    There is none, and debating pages about whether terrain should maybe influence summon probability by 3.25% or some such is frivolous waste of space.

    The amount of posting is in no correlation to quality, you know.

    #217031

    ExNihil
    Member

    Ok, I’ll just ignore you. Have a nice day.

    #217034

    Most of the proposals seem to be centred on reducing the randomness.

    Is this really so annoying? I rather like this random element with the Ad. When I want less randomness I’ll pick the Sorc. Die

    Edit: my phone wrote “die”. Desiring less randomness is not cause for death!

    #217037

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    So patronizing AND ignorant. Great combo.

    @ BBB
    Most of the proposals seem to come with an if:, “IF something should be done, then”.
    But that’s a flawed assumption because there is just no convincing point except that some find a few of the choices on the weakish side (while others are of course on the stronger side), which in itself is strongly pointing to randomness – or else…

    #217038

    ExNihil
    Member

    Indeed, Randomness is annoying to some players and less to others, it is also less annoying when you get good utility out of it I’d guess :). The point is to somewhat reduce randomness, still keeping it very random though. Also, using terrain related effects one could put in animals that wouldn’t appear otherwise, that is, on not this very specific terrain.

    Let me review the spells:

    Summon Wild Animal – currently 11.111% to summon each of the following animals

    Baby Reed Serpent
    Baby Shock Serpent
    Boar
    Dire Penguin
    Dread Spider Baby
    Hunter Spider Baby
    Vampire Spider Baby
    Tiger
    Warg

    For Blighted terrain I would add 2 entries for Dire Monkey, giving it a 20% chance of being summoned and all other units a 10%. For Volcanic Terrain I would add 2 entries for Felhorse, giving it 20% and all other units 10%, for Arctic terrain I would give Pinguins 2 entries, giving them 20% and all other units 10% OR give them 2 entries and remove the tiger, giving them 22 percent and all other units 11 percent. I would do the reverse in Tropical, giving Tigers 2 entries and all others 10% OR remove the Pinguins while giving the Tigers 2 entries, giving them 22% and all others 10%. For UG summons I would give a single spider variant 2 entries, giving it 20% and all other units 10%. It is also possible to tie snakes to wetlands, but that is redundant (I would go with climates rather than terrain type, but both could be used – for instance, summoning on mountains will actually increase the chance of getting a gryphon, but ppl will hate it.)

    I would follow the same scheme in summon Eldritch animal, tweaking the chances of dire-panther by introducing polar-bear, mammoth and elephant (arctic and tropical), tweaking the chance of blight task-boar on blighted and bleak warg on arctic, and introducing nightmare on volcanic.

    This will make Frostling and Goblin AD better, it will also improve Dwarf and Goblin AD in the UG (as well as any AD in the UG for that matter) by giving them better scouting there, and it will make Draconian AD more interesting – although the benefits here are the smallest due to the non-existance of fire weakness causing inflicts. The best fighting units in each classs, i.e. Pinguin and Tiger on wild animal, and Elephant/Mammoth Dire-Panther/Polar-Bear will be balanced as well.

    #217050

    shifted
    Member

    It would fuck up balance and it doens’t fix a single issue you can point at. Druid players like the random aspect, even if they curse it as a joke. (fuck gryphons)

    #217051

    ExNihil
    Member

    Profund critique. How would it fuck balance? Try to explain. And how would it fuck randomness? Also try to explain? Since I am a Druid player myself, and I guess I had at least 200+ hours playing that, I’d say it wouldn’t hurt one bit. Also there were quite a few people earlier in this thread that thought otherwise, I’d thus avoid generalizations like you use ’em.

    #217071

    NINJEW
    Member

    it doens’t fix a single issue you can point at

    can someone please answer this bit because i’m honestly not sure what this would add to the game at all

    #217082

    ExNihil
    Member

    And there I was certain I have actually answered this bit completely. If you or for that matter anyone else have an issue with anything I propose I’d suggest you begin by reading what it is I am proposing. Usually there is an explanation of why and how there.

    #217099

    NINJEW
    Member

    I just read through the thread again and am still somewhat confused. The reasoning behind trying summon chance to terrain seems to be that it will improve AD’s late game???

    1. So why are we talking about Eldritch animal, which is most certainly not a late game spell

    2. Why are you then suggesting that the effect the change should have on chance is minor, and introducing somewhat sub par units to the pool? How does that make AD stronger?

    3. How would changing the chances of certain animals appearing be a buff, unless you made only the strongest animals appear more often?

    4. Does AD really NEED to be stronger lategame in the first place? It’s already a top earlygame class, why are it’s strengths there not balanced out by some weakness (such as late game competitiveness)

    The “it will alleviate AD’s late game woes” was briefly brought up a couple times last page, but the discussion surrounding it implies, and would be more fitting for, a “it’d be neat and add flavor to the game, but not really affect anything major” line of reasoning

    Hence my confusion as to why anyone wants this and why it would be necessary

    #217101

    ExNihil
    Member

    I understand you are confused, I am now also confused.

    At which point did I argue this will upgrade the AD late-game or that it had a problem? Mind you, @zaskow had some weird conceptions of AD late-game that I don’t share at all. I also have no issue with the power level of the AD at any other stage, only with a couple of sub-par summons, which have been crap since Vanilla and remained so. This proposal is meant to offer, and I will now commit the sin and qoute myself:

    Indeed, Randomness is annoying to some players and less to others, it is also less annoying when you get good utility out of it I’d guess :). The point is to somewhat reduce randomness, still keeping it very random though.

    You are correct regarding the sub-par units, these being Felhorse and Dread-Monkey: Dread Monkey is an Ok scout unit, on par with current Boar, and it has Sprint and Sabotage, so its useful. Felhorse is pretty much equal to Boar/Warg, less able in battle but has 60% fire protection, so it is also useful against some opponents. I would hope that if this proposal seems good and interesting to the devs that they will upgrade these units a little bit as well, but that doesn’t matter, the overall balance is retained.

    3. How would changing the chances of certain animals appearing be a buff, unless you made only the strongest animals appear more often?

    This is specifically the case with Eldrich Animal – if you are able to get a higher number of units that synergizes with your race’s element that is a buff for Goblins and Frostlings. The other aspect is simply to reduce randomness a bit. Nothing dramatic about.

    #217106

    shifted
    Member

    I don’t want fucking felhorses and dread monkeys though. Obviously the devs agree considering they declined to add them during their recent pass. I also don’t want certain animals as X race, and especially not as Y race on X terrain. Why would I want a Blight Tusk Boar as I’m about to attack a Goblin city?

    Even if it makes sense logically it’s just not fixing any problem. Nobody is complaining about summon RNG. Even you can’t bash it in blind defense of your own idea.

    Here’s some unwarranted advice- don’t get so attached to your own ideas and let it goooo. Someone else has an idea? Make your own thread, this thread is for talking about druid summons in general terms. You have an idea? God save us all

    #217108

    ExNihil
    Member

    Here is also a piece of advice, don’t swear so much and develop some basic communication skills, starting with not giving advice to people who don’t ask for it. I have no need to continue this discussion, I merely obliged BBB and Ninjew, you on the other hand have contributed nothing except some ill written expressions of your wishes, which frankly I don’t give a #@$! about.

    #217110

    Bob5
    Member

    Most of the proposals seem to be centred on reducing the randomness.

    Is this really so annoying? I rather like this random element with the Ad. When I want less randomness I’ll pick the Sorc.

    For me reducing randomness is not something I really want with the AD summons, I like the randomness of them. But I like tying it a bit to clime/terrain for flavor reasons. With that I mean that I think it’s reasonable to expect that it’d be easier to find penguins to fight for your cause in the snow than it is in the tropics, slightly altering the summoning chances would show that a bit.

    #217111

    NINJEW
    Member

    AD is definitely UP in LATE game, when producing classes-opponents begin to produce t3/t4s non-stop.

    Wouldn’t any of the ideas I suggested in the OP work to help this? I mean to tie summoning to some degree to Geographic tiles, and/or shift some unit(s) to city production?

    -the only thing i ever saw that provided any kind of reason behind this line of discussion

    #217116

    ExNihil
    Member

    That was in reference to the huge argument about randomness, which revolved around the terrible proposal to remove some units from the summon list. You will note I explained to Zaskow AD was one of the strongest classes IMO and that I find the randomness integral to it. Yet given the feeling some ppl expressed in this thread and Ericridge’s one, I proposed a compromise mechanic. I also suggested some buffs, which were the main thing I did in this thread.

    Now I will tell you and shifted what I told Jolly Joker, if you don’t like the idea, fine, if you have a critique if the proposal I’ll read it and respond – as long as it’s construed to make something constructive. Otherwise, drop it. I explained the idea, showed how it will work and explained what it will help with. As far as I’m concerned I did my part.

    #217122

    NINJEW
    Member

    it’s kind of a difficult conversation to have when the problem you are solving isn’t really established to begin with. lots of people disagree that randomness is a problem, and also see potential problems that reducing randomness could create. to the point:

    I also don’t want certain animals as X race, and especially not as Y race on X terrain. Why would I want a Blight Tusk Boar as I’m about to attack a Goblin city?

    #217123

    shifted
    Member

    Here is also a piece of advice, don’t swear so much and develop some basic communication skills, starting with not giving advice to people who don’t ask for it. I have no need to continue this discussion, I merely obliged BBB and Ninjew, you on the other hand have contributed nothing except some ill written expressions of your wishes, which frankly I don’t give a #@$! about.

    Communication is a two way street. I just wanted to point out something I’ve seen in multiple threads of yours- you think up ideas half way into a thread and latch on to them despite pretty much total opposition. No offense. I like these threads but they’re worthless once you start that shit up.

    #217127

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    There simnply is no issue here. Don’t fix what isn’t broken. Says Jolly Joker to ExNihil.

    #217131

    ExNihil
    Member

    I disagree with your assessment of AD. I think its one of the most powerful classes in game, always has been. The randomness of these spells is a balancing mechanism. AD has some decent production/growth capacities and Lykus’ analysis was quite precise IMO.

    Basically what you would like is a t1 summon that gets you spider/snake/tiger 100% of the time. This is OP – Spider and Snake can evolve, tiger is quite strong in itself. To this add the ability of AD to buff animals with magic and abilities and some synergies with blight / bleeding wounds. Given it is not as reliable as Sorcerer, but the mechanics here are different and the end result is as powerful if not more so depending on the map configuration.

    Randomness is part of the game and an inherent part of the AD summoning since Vanilla, ask any competent AD player and they will tell you it works just fine. Like Rogue it requires a certain mindset, if you try to play it like Sorcerer it doesn’t work, and vice-versa. I don’t find a problem here at all, only with some of the units themselves, and TBH I have found this very same problem in Vanilla (and wrote about it).

    I’ll say this, I explained a concept that could be used to reduce the randomness and/or introduce more unit diversity (not always to crappy units, but possibly also to those) that some people liked. I explained how it could work and what I think it could cobtribute. I am quite apathetic to whether it is implamanted because I never felt there was an imbalance that is serious enough to address. My isuue was with two crappy units, to which I offered buffs that I do feel would be an improvemnt.

    Now, is it a bad idea? I like it. Would it improve game balance? Marginally at best. Would some people enjoy it? Yes, would some people hate it? Probably. Do I think it will be implemented? No, I read what @gloweye wrote, and I don’t feel heart broken.

    #217132

    shifted
    Member

    Overall, Eldritch Animals comprise 90% of my summoning in 90% of my Druid Games. I play quickish MP games and SP games with the same settings. Wild Animal only gets used a few times before Eldritch is up, and anything I get from it is fodder, scout, or crushed dreams of evolution.

    If anything needs a change I think it’s there too. But it’s a tricky thing to approach, because I really, really like that Druid can start getting higher tier units out first with Eldritch/Gargantuan.

    Maybe in the next game they could make any unit with Evolve kind of a wuss in Auto Combat, and try to feed it last hits.

    #217141

    NINJEW
    Member

    i mean you asked for critiques of your ideas. in what way is “your idea would make me get blight boars more often when i’m going to fight goblins” not a valid point?

    #217161

    ExNihil
    Member

    It is mote point. The idea could be implemented in any number of ways, this was an explanation. For example with or without extra animals, or as a way to delimit some animals, as I said now four times. Is it a valid critique? Maybe once, but you are repeating it like woody the woodpecker.

    #217166

    NINJEW
    Member

    i called attention to it once, then repeated that once, because you never directly addressed it.

    The point still stands, regardless of “it could be implemented in any number of ways” hand waving. I think the point of a discussion is that we do talk about specific implementations of the proposed idea, as afterall, that is how we weigh the pros and cons of a proposal: how well could this work in practice?

    If you tie animal chances to the geography, you’re obviously going to be getting animals with elemental attacks in terrain that corresponds with that element, correct? blight focused animals in blighted terrain, frost focused animals in artic terrain, and fire focused animals in volcanic terrain, yes? But those terrains are where you are most likely to be facing Goblins, Frostlings, and Draconians, respectively. This is a problem, because the proposed change slightly weakens AD, and thus has balance ramifications, as well as being frustrating for the player.

    Are you suggesting that animals received from geographic terrain could be somehow related to the terrain, but not related to the terrain’s element? Does there exist a t2 animal that could be reasonably tied to blight, that would also perform well against Goblins?

    I understand you are getting frustrated by this discussion. You are under no obligation to continue posting to this thread, and do not even need to make a post saying you will not post in the thread further. Lord knows I’ve stepped out of threads many times when the discussion became too much of a headache for me. No one is pointing a gun to your head, saying that you must respond to every post made that is directed at you. If you do not, of course, the assumption is that you do not have a proper counterargument, but that is the nature of wishing to remove yourself from a discussion.

    #217169

    Bob5
    Member

    If you tie animal chances to the geography, you’re obviously going to be getting animals with elemental attacks in terrain that corresponds with that element, correct? blight focused animals in blighted terrain, frost focused animals in artic terrain, and fire focused animals in volcanic terrain, yes? But those terrains are where you are most likely to be facing Goblins, Frostlings, and Draconians, respectively. This is a problem, because the proposed change slightly weakens AD, and thus has balance ramifications, as well as being frustrating for the player.

    Or you can say that as a Goblin AD you’ll get Blight Boars slightly more often, which sync well with the Blight Doctor Weakening, or as a Frostling AD you’ll get Bleak Wargs slightly more often, which have arctic concealment so you can combo them with Shaman to get invisible higher tier stacks (combo with gold medal Yeti or Arctic Empire), and which also sync well with Chilling. Besides, I think AD is so strong now that it can handle a small nerf to its power.

    #217172

    ExNihil
    Member

    My friend, I don’t need a counter-argument, as you have in effect made no argument. You have asked me about blight before, I have answered you before, you seem to fail to read what I answered. It will neither weaken nor empower the AD beyond the point at which it currently is, it can be implemented in any number of ways, relating to climate, or tile terrain type, to increase or decrease the likelihood of any specific animal. This only depends on the amount of effort the devs would be willing to invest into this. Of course nobody is holding a gun to my head, and I will indeed stop posting in this thread because there is really no reason to – anyone who wants to understand my opinions need only to read this thread from the beginning. Do you feel that you won by making me not wish to discuss stuff with you? Lol, grow up.

    #217180

    NINJEW
    Member

    My point was that it’s a discussion, not something that anyone wins or loses dude. If you’re frustrated, you can feel free to walk away: you’re not a loser if you do, you’re just a person who doesn’t want to be in this discussion any more. This is not a competition, no one has any obligation to speak here, I assume most everyone does because they have a genuine interest int he topics brought up and, on some level at least, enjoy talking about these topics. So, if it is not enjoyable for you anymore (as it sounds like it is), my recommendation is to simply, wordlessly, walk away. Because that is an option for you, and there’s no shame in it.

    #217202

    ExNihil
    Member

    Indeed. And my point was that if there were any unanswered questions I’d answer them, but for all the questions I read in this page I already gave answers, and to keep asking answered questions is not a discussion as I understand this term. Alas we are going in circles, this thread is finished.

    #217464

    Akinaba
    Member

    ‘Xcuse me, guys to interfere in your discussion, since I’ve stopped reading when you’ve started to throw filth at each other. I can see a nice discussion on probabilities going on somwhere up here but I’ll leave it on it’s own. I haven’t been here for a long time so I will just reveal my point wether will be it considered worthwile or not.

    First of all I like that this discussion is happening again, ’cause we allready had several such discussions about half an year ago. Yet it reveals that many players do not consider improvements in animal abilities are enough.

    I do not share the point that some units in your possible summons row should be crappy just to grade those plainly awesome units you can possibly gain with that same spell. That logic is the reason of main players dissapointments with that class. What I DO think is that those units, should all have their strong and weak sides, I would say it would be good if they would be assymetrical.

    Take a look at summon circle. Why do you consider spiders and serpents be preferred above all other animals – it’s just and the only because of their Evolving potential. Imagine you won’t be able to evolve your Baby Reed Serpent anymore, how would you consider it’s combat value now? I guess you would put it on the same line with a Boar.

    Now we see that most of the value of some T1 Animals is given by their evolving potential. Now what to do with the rest? I can see no reason why Warg or Boar should be simply ill built, just because to grade a possibility of summoning some potentially evolving units.

    If you want to grade the chance of sommoning something you should work with chances, not the quality of creatures that summoned. Just decrease the chance of serpents and spiders to appear by increasing the chance of appearing of non-evolving creatures and voila, you have no complaining about too powerfull spell.

    Now that we differentiated two points: the chance of summoning a unit and the quality of it, lets talk about the quality:

    I totally agree that Wargs and Boars just do not feel uniqe and worth playing (even now after late modification, still not changes that much) partly because their boring appearance, partly because they have no distinctive roles to play, they just do not have clear destinctive niche, because they feel like almost the same creature, with slightly different abilities. So what I would suggest is to differentiate Wargs and Boars furthermore, but not to separate them completely. That’s how I see it:

    I already said that I fell boars like some fierce tanky creatures, unlike wargs, that feels to me like some swift and flanky cavalry. In terms of cavalry, by the way I would describe Boars like heavy front-lune Knight cavalry designed to break the front line and Wargs like fast and swift light cavalery, designed for flanking and maneuver.

    The problem with all vainla creatures is that while thinking about how to improve them we can not use any of the abilities that appeared in GR or EL expansions. Simply because that abilites make those expansions that unique. So we must just cnocider that in our talks.

    Now about improving and Savage Rage “ultimate” buff on which most of you constantly referring. Looking at how Wargs gained their First Strike lately and always had Owewhelm I thought, wait doesn’t Savage Rage grants those abilities when casted already? So lets quickly decompose Savage Rage to see what does it actually grants:

    Savage Rage:
    +5 Strength;
    Wall Crushing;

    First Strike; (Wargs)
    Armour Piercing;
    Overwhelm; (Wargs)
    Charge; (Boars)

    So SR does not add THAT much to said creatures as you thought. Putting aside +5 Strength and Wall Crushing (which is obviously good), you have only two of non-existing abilities added to Wargs and three to Boars. Here is where I thought that I found a vanila ability that could be added to Boar without drammaticaly imbalance the game on the point of casting Savage Rage.

    To distinguish Boars from Wargs furthermore, and to show their different role and to grade their latter Health buffs and Fast Healing abilities I would suggest one simple move that I think will even all their later and further buffs. You see, the Dwarven Boar Riders have 32 movement points for some reason while Wild Boars have Common 36. And Goblin Warg Riders do have 36 while their Wild Wargs have also 36 movement points. I know you would say that Dwarves are much more Armoured and heavier then Goblins but Boars are also not a weak creatures, and that was why they were choosed for their mounts, instead that would stick to the ponnies.

    So here what I would suggest do differentiate and improve Wargs and Boars without drammaticaly changing any gameplay.

    Boars
    * -4 movement points (was 36 should be 32) to depict their heavier and tanky role
    * Armour Piercing
    * (Optionally) You can throw out Fast Healing if you like (never actually useful ability on my POW)

    Blight Tusk and Erymanthinan Boars
    Should also gain AP if it will be added.
    Also, Blight Tusk should suffer -6/-4 movement penalty to be different from Bleak Warg, and have same +4 increased health comparetively to Bleak Warg (wether by increasing the BTB health or decreasing BW’s – does not matter, though the latter is prefferable)

    Wargs
    To give them something do compensate their poor health and defense and also to make them somewhere alongside with Boars would be nice to give em
    * Wetland Foraging (that would also fit their lore)

    Another interesting point is that While Savage Raged Wargs are weaker then the Boars (since the Boar has more health and +1 Defense compareing to Warg) to grade their differences it would be suitable to give slight +1 Strength to Warg I think to depict their fierciness:
    +1 Strength (was 8 (just as Boars) should be 9)

    Bleak Wargs
    Should gain First Strike, no talking… And maybe also +1 phys. strength (9/4 phys/frost, instead of 8/4 as for Blight Tusk Boar)

    Additionally, I think that would be wise to make them worthwile of training. For that case I though that Boars could have Tireless on gold (instead of crippling wounds) and Wargs could have Guard Breaker (instead of Bleeding Wounds). However that could be overkill already (not for me).

    Now About Gryphons: I would perfectly be happy if they could evolve. First – the only T2 Animal, capable for evolving, second – their weakness will only stimulate player to keep it tight and alive, as does Serpents and Spiders.

    But unfortunately I do think it’s unlikely, since appearance of the King Gryphons could be possible only with another Expansion which means we can not see it in Vanila game, which in it’s turn make an appearance of the King Gryphon unlikely itself, which is a pity.

    Also I’m waiting for appearance of Manticora badly. Ok, let it be Monster, just let it be in the game! :3

    P.S. What wonders me most is that there is no way to summon the Dread Monkey. There is simply no such spell, not at all (not talking about Summon Wild Anmial list (though adding it to the Summon Wild Animal list would decrease the chance of appearing Serpents and Spiders furthermore)). There is a spell to summon Dire Penguin, but no such thing for Dread Monkey. Why, I say?

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