AD Summons

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This topic contains 163 replies, has 21 voices, and was last updated by  ExNihil 6 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 121 through 150 (of 164 total)
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  • #217474

    ExNihil
    Member

    ‘Xcuse me, guys to interfere in your discussion, since I’ve stopped reading when you’ve started to throw filth at each other. I can see a nice discussion on probabilities going on somwhere up here but I’ll leave it on it’s own. I haven’t been here for a long time so I will just reveal my point wether will be it considered worthwile or not.

    Indeed, if you will be here for a while longer you’ll discover that throwing filth is one of the main activities in this forum.

    Take a look at summon circle. Why do you consider spiders and serpents be preferred above all other animals – it’s just and the only because of their Evolving potential. Imagine you won’t be able to evolve your Baby Reed Serpent anymore, how would you consider it’s combat value now? I guess you would put it on the same line with a Boar.

    And yet they do have evolve, which justifies their crappy stats. Also, spiders are much more useful than Boar/Warg due to their webbing abilities.

    Now about improving and Savage Rage “ultimate” buff on which most of you constantly referring. Looking at how Wargs gained their First Strike lately and always had Owewhelm I thought, wait doesn’t Savage Rage grants those abilities when casted already? So lets quickly decompose Savage Rage to see what does it actually grants:

    Savage Rage:
    +5 Strength;
    Wall Crushing;

    First Strike; (Wargs)
    Armour Piercing;
    Overwhelm; (Wargs)
    Charge; (Boars)

    So SR does not add THAT much to said creatures as you thought.

    You should read the thread from the beginning, I suggested that overwhelm and First Strike be removed from Wargs. Charge seems to me to be fitting to Boars, altough I could defintely live with a different ability there.

    ‘Xcuse me, guys to interfere in your discussion, since I’ve stopped reading when you’ve started to throw filth at each other. I can see a nice discussion on probabilities going on somwhere up here but I’ll leave it on it’s own. I haven’t been here for a long time so I will just reveal my point wether will be it considered worthwile or not.

    First of all I like that this discussion is happening again, ’cause we allready had several such discussions about half an year ago. Yet it reveals that many players do not consider improvements in animal abilities are enough.

    I do not share the point that some units in your possible summons row should be crappy just to grade those plainly awesome units you can possibly gain with that same spell. That logic is the reason of main players dissapointments with that class. What I DO think is that those units, should all have their strong and weak sides, I would say it would be good if they would be assymetrical.

    Take a look at summon circle. Why do you consider spiders and serpents be preferred above all other animals – it’s just and the only because of their Evolving potential. Imagine you won’t be able to evolve your Baby Reed Serpent anymore, how would you consider it’s combat value now? I guess you would put it on the same line with a Boar.

    Now we see that most of the value of some T1 Animals is given by their evolving potential. Now what to do with the rest? I can see no reason why Warg or Boar should be simply ill built, just because to grade a possibility of summoning some potentially evolving units.

    If you want to grade the chance of sommoning something you should work with chances, not the quality of creatures that summoned. Just decrease the chance of serpents and spiders to appear by increasing the chance of appearing of non-evolving creatures and voila, you have no complaining about too powerfull spell.

    Now that we differentiated two points: the chance of summoning a unit and the quality of it, lets talk about the quality:

    I totally agree that Wargs and Boars just do not feel uniqe and worth playing (even now after late modification, still not changes that much) partly because their boring appearance, partly because they have no distinctive roles to play, they just do not have clear destinctive niche, because they feel like almost the same creature, with slightly different abilities. So what I would suggest is to differentiate Wargs and Boars furthermore, but not to separate them completely. That’s how I see it:

    I already said that I fell boars like some fierce tanky creatures, unlike wargs, that feels to me like some swift and flanky cavalry. In terms of cavalry, by the way I would describe Boars like heavy front-lune Knight cavalry designed to break the front line and Wargs like fast and swift light cavalery, designed for flanking and maneuver.

    The problem with all vainla creatures is that while thinking about how to improve them we can not use any of the abilities that appeared in GR or EL expansions. Simply because that abilites make those expansions that unique. So we must just cnocider that in our talks.

    Now about improving and Savage Rage “ultimate” buff on which most of you constantly referring. Looking at how Wargs gained their First Strike lately and always had Owewhelm I thought, wait doesn’t Savage Rage grants those abilities when casted already? So lets quickly decompose Savage Rage to see what does it actually grants:

    Savage Rage:
    +5 Strength;
    Wall Crushing;

    First Strike; (Wargs)
    Armour Piercing;
    Overwhelm; (Wargs)
    Charge; (Boars)

    So SR does not add THAT much to said creatures as you thought. Putting aside +5 Strength and Wall Crushing (which is obviously good), you have only two of non-existing abilities added to Wargs and three to Boars. Here is where I thought that I found a vanila ability that could be added to Boar without drammaticaly imbalance the game on the point of casting Savage Rage.

    Do distinguish Boars from Wargs furthermore, and to show their different role and to grade their latter Health buffs and Fast Healing abilities I would suggest one simple move that I think will even all their later and further buffs. You see, the Dwarven Boar Riders have 32 movement points for some reason while Wild Boars have Common 36. And Goblin Warg Riders do have 36 while their Wild Wargs have also 36 movement points. I know you would say that Dwarves are much more Armoured and heavier then Goblins but Boars are also not a weak creatures, and that was why they were choosed for their mounts, instead that would stick to the ponnies.

    So here what I would suggest do differentiate and improve Wargs and Boars without drammaticaly changing any gameplay.

    Boars
    * -4 movement points (was 36 should be 32) to depict their heavier and tanky role
    * Armour Piercing
    * (Optionally) You can throw out Fast Healing if you like (never actually useful ability on my POW)

    Blight Tusk and Erymanthinan Boars
    Should also gain AP if it will be added

    Wargs
    To give them something do compensate their poor health and defense and also to make them somewhere alongside with Boars would be nice to give em
    * Wetland Foraging (that would also fit their lore)

    Bleak Wargs
    Should gain First Strike, no talking…

    Additionally, I think that would be wise to make them worthwile of training. For that case I though that Boars could have Tireless on gold (instead of crippling wounds) and Wargs could have Guard Breaker (instead of Bleeding Wounds). However that could be overkill already (not for me).

    Now About Gryphons: I would perfectly be happy if they could evolve. First – the only T2 Animal, capable for evolving, second – their weakness will only stimulate player to keep it tight and alive, as does Serpents and Spiders.

    But unfortunately I do think it’s unlikely, since appearance of the King Gryphons could be possible only with another Expansion which means we can not see it in Vanila game, which in it’s turn make an appearance of the King Gryphon unlikely itself, which is a pity.

    Also I’m waiting for appearance of Manticora badly. Ok, let it be Monster, just let it be in the game! :3

    P.S. What wonders me most is that there is no way to summon the Dread Monkey. There is simply no such spell, not at all (not talking about Summon Wild Anmial list (though adding it to the Summon Wild Animal list would decrease the chance of appearing Serpents and Spiders furthermore)). There is a spell to summon Dire Penguin, but no such thing for Dread Monkey. Why, I say?

    You are pretty much proposing a serious nerf here in exchange for AP. Although AP works on boar, so I have no problem with this, I do have a problem with reduced MP. You yourself explained well why Dwarfs on Boars are slower than Boars without Dwarfs, I see no reason to change this. Wetland Foraging is a crap perk in comparison to fast regen btw.

    Now About Gryphons: I would perfectly be happy if they could evolve. First – the only T2 Animal, capable for evolving, second – their weakness will only stimulate player to keep it tight and alive, as does Serpents and Spiders.

    But unfortunately I do think it’s unlikely, since appearance of the King Gryphons could be possible only with another Expansion which means we can not see it in Vanila game, which in it’s turn make an appearance of the King Gryphon unlikely itself, which is a pity.

    I would like to see this as well. It doesn’t necessitate a new expansion, only the will and investment of the dev team – and not quite a lot of investment at that, since Gryphons are already made.

    #217476

    Akinaba
    Member

    You the boss. 😉

    Yet I stated my opinion and I do not share some of yours, but I do not want to intrude into that same discussion, so, yeah, you the boss. 😉

    #217479

    Zaskow
    Member

    Take a look at summon circle. Why do you consider spiders and serpents be preferred above all other animals – it’s just and the only because of their Evolving potential.

    T1 Spiders themselves are good units with nice paralyzing ability.

    Just decrease the chance of serpents and spiders to appear by increasing the chance of appearing of non-evolving creatures and voila, you have no complaining about too powerfull spell.

    Then we will complain about spell that provides us crappy combat units.

    I totally agree that Wargs and Boars just do not feel uniqe and worth playing (even now after late modification, still not changes that much) partly because their boring appearance, partly because they have no distinctive roles to play, they just do not have clear destinctive niche, because they feel like almost the same creature, with slightly different abilities. So what I would suggest is to differentiate Wargs and Boars furthermore, but not to separate them completely.

    Reason is simpler actually. Boar and warg are just weaker than even racial irregular (in dmg output mostly).

    Boars
    * -4 movement points (was 36 should be 32) to depict their heavier and tanky role
    * Armour Piercing
    * (Optionally) You can throw out Fast Healing if you like (never actually useful ability on my POW)

    Is this a joke? Do you really think that these changes make boars more attractive to use?

    Additionally, I think that would be wise to make them worthwile of training. For that case I though that Boars could have Tireless on gold (instead of crippling wounds)

    I don’t think that without changing main stats boar survives to gold medal.

    Wargs
    To give them something do compensate their poor health and defense and also to make them somewhere alongside with Boars would be nice to give em
    * Wetland Foraging (that would also fit their lore)

    Fully dependable from map.
    Fast healing is far better.

    #217483

    Wargs and boars are very useful because they charge fast ahead of hunters (usually high elf or halfling or tigran), die, and then can be replaced cheaply. They are the most important summons for Archer evolution (since the ad doesn’t have a phantasm warrior equivalent).

    The problem is that this change ends up increasing the power of the strong already. Halfling and especially high elves don’t need an extra dire bear chance (since bears are going to be forest based).

    If you really wanted this, I’d make it dependent on the ultimate class building tree. So that makes the terrain chosen double the chance of the type of unit (forest bears, wetland serpents, blight spiders and bleak tusk boars, snow polar bears and mammoths).

    That would auto balance, since the best bit (more serpents) goes to goblins.

    #217488

    Zaskow
    Member

    Wargs and boars are very useful because they charge fast ahead of hunters (usually high elf or halfling or tigran), die, and then can be replaced cheaply.

    Not very cheaply. 40 mana/cp, 9 mana/turn is a quite expensive for such crap.
    Also auto. AI won’t use such tactics.

    #217489

    Akinaba
    Member

    If you really wanted this, I’d make it dependent on the ultimate class building tree. So that makes the terrain chosen double the chance of the type of unit (forest bears, wetland serpents, blight spiders and bleak tusk boars, snow polar bears and mammoths).

    That would auto balance, since the best bit (more serpents) goes to goblins.

    The bad side in this suggestion that I can see a simple abuse here:
    One will be simply preferably cast the spell on Wetlands and in Caves to have an increased chance of Spiders and Serpents to appear. Hence, there would be no alternative, but rather predetermined behavior.

    #217490

    ExNihil
    Member

    It would work if the choice is between having a good chance to get a useful combat unit or a crappy evolving one.

    I don’t see a problem with spiders being a higher chance summon in the UG – after all, both Dwarf and Goblin are not very powerful ADs.

    As for Dread-Monkeys and why there is no spell – they are a great unit, when levelled they function like a weaker but quicker version of scoundrels. If you get a Summon Dread-Monkey spell, whoever has it will be very dangerous to DN, which is problematic. Yet giving this unit on the AD summons list is not a problem IMO, you wouldn’t have many of them and if you wanted to use them as scoundrels you need to level them and keep em alive, so it would be balanced.

    #217496

    Akinaba
    Member

    I had an idea a year ago to push Inflict Crppling and Bleeding wounds of the Boars and Wargs on the XP0 level or Veteran and give em Tireless and Guard Breaker accordingly on Gold, but:
    1. No T1 unit has two upgrades on their XP line;
    2. It seemed to turn them into killing machines.

    Would that and giving x2 chance to summon each of them make a player happy?

    #217501

    Wargs and boars are very useful because they charge fast ahead of hunters (usually high elf or halfling or tigran), die, and then can be replaced cheaply.

    Not very cheaply. 40 mana/cp, 9 mana/turn is a quite expensive for such crap.
    Also auto. AI won’t use such tactics.

    Yes it does, because melee units go up to do maximum damage (that is why cavalry died all the time). Now, the cavalry die less because they stick with slower melee units.

    If you have a stack where the only melee units are boars and wargs, then they will all charge forward, keeping units away from your archers. If you have penguins spiders and the like, then they will engage closer to your archers.

    It is just about mp, rather than tactics.

    #217517

    Zaskow
    Member

    1. No T1 unit has two upgrades on their XP line;

    A lot of them actually. Dire penguin for example.

    2. It seemed to turn them into killing machines.

    With 8 dmg melee only? Definitely not.

    #217522

    Akinaba
    Member

    Speaking of Guard Breaker and Tireless on gold. I just thought that the letter so much fits the lore of the Boar that I tried to came up with something equivalent for the Warg that will motivate a player to keep and train that creature up to gold, bun did not manage to do that. Keep in mind that an ability must be taken from vanila game and also perfectly fit the lore.

    As an alternative previously mentioned Backstab could do.

    Also, Animal Slayer could be nice replacement for obviously never-gonna-happening Predator.

    #217585

    ExNihil
    Member

    Do we know for a fact that some abilities don’t exist in Vanilla now? They might have been introduced in DLC content, but don’t the exist in the main game itself with the current updates? And are Triumph unwilling to implement these in Vanilla? Also Guard Breaker was not in Vanilla, it was introduced in EL I believe and implemented also on Vanilla content, so there are examples of this.

    #217876

    shifted
    Member

    If you gave boars Guard Breaker that could be interesting. They could also get Bleeding Wounds, or something new-ish like Festering Wound (just rename something appropriate). I like Bleeding Wounds though because it means your weaker summons could still contribute to your good summon’s murder spree.

    I’m of the opinion that Wild Animal is fine though, sorry. You have cheap animal buffs to throw around and make them better units if needed. Even though they’re less than ideal scouts they do fine for the ~5-10 turns before you start getting some of the best scout / scout hunters in the game in the Hunter and Gryphon.

    #217947

    ExNihil
    Member

    It could work, need some more dmg though. I don’t think you unlock and cast Eldrich this quickly – there is no advantage in going for it in 10 turns without serious mana income and CP, and I doubt it could be done in 5 without very lucky scrolls.

    #217971

    quo
    Member

    You could give Wargs Devour Corpse. That ability didn’t exist until recently and seems fairly fitting for what that unit is supposed to be, which from the graphics is some kind of crazed feral wolf thing.

    Also, Tigers need Pounce, even if it means taking a hit to their Defense score or turning them into T2 units. A Tiger should feel like a Tiger.

    #217987

    Wallthing
    Member

    You could give Wargs Devour Corpse. That ability didn’t exist until recently and seems fairly fitting for what that unit is supposed to be, which from the graphics is some kind of crazed feral wolf thing.

    Also, Tigers need Pounce, even if it means taking a hit to their Defense score or turning them into T2 units. A Tiger should feel like a Tiger.

    Carcharoth! and Fenris too. I like it.

    I’ve said it before but I wouldn’t mind giving Tigers and Dire Panthers Forest Concealment too.

    #217988

    NINJEW
    Member

    i don’t know why tigrans have pounce and tigers don’t

    i guess that extra humanoid body really helps. humans are well known for their superior-than-tigers leaping ability.

    the real answer is probably because tigrans are an EL race, pounce is an EL ability, and tigers i believe came in with GR?

    #217990

    ExNihil
    Member

    I would like to see tiger stats nerfed and pounce included. I love the Devour Corpse idea +10 for originality 😃.

    #218069

    Akinaba
    Member

    Also, Tigers need Pounce, even if it means taking a hit to their Defense score or turning them into T2 units. A Tiger should feel like a Tiger.

    Tigers need to be nerfed (-2 Melee strength at least) in before. After that maybe they could have pounce to have some flavour to play.

    I’ve said it before but I wouldn’t mind giving Tigers and Dire Panthers Forest Concealment too.

    Giving an early scout any kind of concealement is not likely. I remember how the idea of giving Urban Concealement to Grimbeak Crows was strongly rejected, inspite the fact that there is not much undefended structures in the early game and that it perfectly fits on their lore.

    #218108

    NINJEW
    Member

    the difference is probably that crows can fly while tigers and panthers have to walk, but i don’t particularly care about either side of that conversation. note though: hunters already have concealment and are AD’s primary scouts

    #218111

    TaxableApple
    Member

    IIRC lost souls have blight concealment as well.

    #218116

    quo
    Member

    I’m doubling down on my suggestion of giving Devour Corpse to Wargs after reviewing their flavor text:

    “There’s a fable about a girl in a crimson cloak who meets a Warg. The Warg convinces her to pick some flowers, while it rushes ahead to eat her granny. I assure all children out there, that even if your parents are not trying to kill you by letting you wander a warg-infested forest alone, a real warg won’t stop to talk, it will eat you. Sure, wargs are smarter than average wolves, but they are also more vicious. Further, it is unlikely to find just one warg, because they hunt in packs. The Moral of the story: Even if your parents want to kill you; disobey and don’t enter a warg-infested forest alone.”

    IIRC lost souls have blight concealment as well.

    Yep they do, and they can be summoned much more reliably to form invisible stacks.

    #218123

    Akinaba
    Member

    Yep they do, and they can be summoned much more reliably to form invisible stacks.

    Then I definitely vote for goving Grimbeak Crows Urban Concealement, but still do not think Tigers should have the Forest one. In such logic all Animals should have it.

    #218130

    NINJEW
    Member

    as a rogue, i would love to be able to sit my crow down on some randomass goldmine that got cleared by my opponent’s army 20 turns ago and have an nice, invisible watch over the surrounding area

    #218145

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well, I wasn’t against concealment for Crows before and I’m not against it now. I feel that Rogue needs more concealment options always – it used to be quite bad, it was less sneaky than some other classes which was a bit absurd, and now its better, but crows are expansive as shit and don’t hold their own in a fight. Urban concealment is really nice but I don’t think it’s game breaking – but perhaps that is not the subject of an AD Summons thread. If any of you guys is willing to take on the shit storm discussion that will ensure I will put my +1 there :).

    #218188

    Zaskow
    Member

    Tigers need to be nerfed (-2 Melee strength at least) in before. After that maybe they could have pounce to have some flavour to play.

    Honestly, I don’t think that exchange stats for pounce is worth. Leave tigers alone. Just make some buffs to wargs and boars. 8 melee dmg is ridiculous.

    Giving an early scout any kind of concealement is not likely. I remember how the idea of giving Urban Concealement to Grimbeak Crows was strongly rejected, inspite the fact that there is not much undefended structures in the early game and that it perfectly fits on their lore.

    This is very strange logic, because in warfare scouts MUST be invisible to be effective. Also we have already introduced this in game – lost souls as mentioned before, hunters, almost whole race has inherent concealment (frostlings).

    I see a few ways to fix crappy AD summons (I meant wargs and boars).
    Make them more effective in combats by buffing main stats or giving some abilities.
    Delete them completely. AD will have enough diversity in Wild animal spell even without wargs and boars.
    Make them decent scouts. Now they’re poor scouts – no concealments, no additional moving options, no swimming.
    Decrease chances of their summoning. At least AD will suffer from wasting mana/cp less.
    Exchange for some more interesting and effective animals. Dread monkey, for example, or fellhorse.

    #218195

    NINJEW
    Member

    as a rogue, i would love to be able to sit my crow down on some randomass goldmine that got cleared by my opponent’s army 20 turns ago and have an nice, invisible watch over the surrounding area

    guys i was being sarcastic that would be pretty op

    #218215

    Lol @ Ninjew.

    I got what you meant.

    Wargs losing first strike and gaining devour corpse is a good idea.

    #218216

    Ultimatum
    Member

    sarcasm on the interest..no way!

    #218236

    Akinaba
    Member

    guys i was being sarcastic that would be pretty op

    More OP then parking a Hunter far in the forest behind the enemy lines an having a nice invisible overwatch from there?

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