AI dispels meditate instead of casting

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions AI dispels meditate instead of casting

This topic contains 25 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  Hiliadan 5 years, 7 months ago.

Viewing 26 posts - 1 through 26 (of 26 total)
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  • #239656

    HjAa
    Member

    Why does the AI focus so much on dispelling meditate, rather than boosting its own units/do some certain damage with offensive spells? The dispel only works half of the time anyway and most of the time the AI would gain more from using its own powerful spells. Seeing as how meditate doesn’t even cost an action anymore it almost paralyses an opposing AI’s spellcasting for free! Anybody else encountered this?

    • This topic was modified 6 years, 4 months ago by  HjAa.
    #239660

    I did, and reported it. A fix of it would be very nice if there will ever be an update, as I enjoy playing as KotP.

    #239661

    HjAa
    Member

    Glad to hear it! I do hope it gets fixed. It’s especially annoying when you’re playing cooperatively and your ally’s battles turn out much easier as the AI won’t use the same powerful spells on him/her, but only focuses on dispelling.

    #239662

    Gloweye
    Member

    It’s not really a bug.

    When evaluating what to do with it’s spell of the round, first preference is obvious choices – kill a unit, remove (de)buffs. All of these are rather straightforward and honestly, removing the meditate buffs is never a bad thing.

    However, trouble is, it doesn’t know the difference between “cheap” buffs like meditate, or stronger ones like Blessed. It can’t, it’s not in the code.

    The only thing I could see done would be a Meditate buff, making it’s status effects undispellable, but I don’t really like that.

    #239663

    Well, as I said in the other topic, dispelling single unit buffs should not be an AI priority (expecially in large scale battles). I think that, example given, an AI sorcerer that is engaged in a big battle should avoid dispelling single unit buffs and go straight for killing damage spells (if possible) or battlefield enchantments, like Chaos Rift. Trying to disjunct battlefield enchantments is instead a good thing, and I’d like AI to keep doing that.

    True, it’s not a bug, but I feel that it’s a consequence of AI programming that was not desired (remember that, IIRC, before Meditate there was no occasion of having buffed troops at the start of the battle, so it’s more likely than not that the AI was never written with this issue in mind).

    #239698

    Draxynnic
    Member

    There’s a valid point there. Previously, if a unit had a buff on it, it was a good bet that the unit in question was one the player intended to make good use of. Now, it’s possible for them to simply be a matter of being a Torchbearer and being in the stack. I had one battle in a game recently where the AI dispelled a Meditate on a unit of knights in a siege, where it was highly unlikely that those knights would influence anything.

    Not sure what can be done about it, though. I guess one thing could be to give the AI some targeting priorities, so that it only dispels a buff on a unit if that unit presents a credible threat in the first place (so, a unit on the offensive side in a siege that lacks wallclimbing, flying, teleporting, wallcrushing, or any means of getting in on its own apart from through the gates is bottom priority unless there’s already a breach).

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 4 months ago by  Draxynnic.
    #239700

    The easiest way I could think about is having AI avoid dispelling Meditate and other buffs that an unit can start with (if there are others). I don’t konw if it’s possible to forbid the dispelling of a specific enchantment, though. A dev answer would be nice here. How did you summon one?

    #239701

    HjAa
    Member

    Yes, that’s probably the easiest way. The best thing would (of course) be if the ai could weigh the benefit between dispelling against casting its own spells. But I’m guessing that would be more of a coding challenge..?

    #239743

    kwibus
    Member

    Well that definately would be a coding challenge.

    I personally prefer the AI focusing on it’s own spells more instead of trying to dispel everything.

    #239798

    HjAa
    Member

    Agreed, if that’s the alternative! Would be nice to get some developer feedback…?

    #240014

    SikBok
    Keymaster

    Someone asked for developer feedback?

    I’d like to answer this question in two ways, starting with the general answer. Unfortunately writing AI for a game like AoW3 is a technical challenge of the same type as writing an AI for GO.

    To make matters worse, go AI is something academics have been working since 1968 and they’ve still not developed one that’s at the same level as chess AI. For us to solve a similar challenge within the time we have is – unfortunately – not feasible.

    Then to address the specific issue, we have a setting for buffs and debuffs that flags it as a target for dispel. Flipping that setting should resolve the issue with meditate. Would that – taking into account the general point I made earlier – resolve the issue?

    #240016

    No, Triumph, we’re expecting you to do a breaktrhough in AI research! You could pick some scrolls somewhere, just be aware of phantom warriors.

    Sikbok, thanks for your answer. I’m aware of AI programming issues, and I suggest to simply do what you said. Dispel is really situational, and I couldn’t be able to write some objective criteria for an AI to use it well. So I vote for flipping the setting, expecially if the AI will continue disjuncting battlefield enchantments.

    A curiosity: could you set flags (de)buff by (de)buff or only globally?

    EDIT: misspelling, I’ve always read your nick Sikbox.

    #240017

    HjAa
    Member

    Yeah, I agree. Dispel will still be valid through units using the ability from time to time. Better if the AI focuses on casting its own spells/buffs/debuffs. At least they will have a 100% chance of effect.

    #240024

    Gloweye
    Member

    Then to address the specific issue, we have a setting for buffs and debuffs that flags it as a target for dispel. Flipping that setting should resolve the issue with meditate. Would that – taking into account the general point I made earlier – resolve the issue?

    IMHO, yes. A flag for only the AI to ignore it would be better(more player choice), but if that’s more work I don’t think it’s worth wasting your time on.

    There’s also the lore argument that it’s a result of the unit’s dedication and state of mind, which would give more excuse than you need to say that it’s not a magical effect(and therefore unable to be dispelled).

    #240026

    Yes, make meditate undispellable please.

    #240027

    Ops, I did not understand: you’re just talking about making meditate undispellable? I proposed to remove the ability to use the spell “Dispel” for the AI, but this solution seems better.

    #240028

    HjAa
    Member

    As I understood it from SikBok’s post, the suggestion was just for the ai to stop dispelling meditate. To me, that sounds like a good solution. Considering, however that the buffs from the corresponding abilities that Shadowborn and Greyguard are not dispellable, it could be an option to do the same with meditate, now that it’s automatically cast at the start of battle.

    #240057

    SikBok
    Keymaster

    No, Triumph, we’re expecting you to do a breaktrhough in AI research!

    Reading the news today I found out that an AI defeated a professional Go player for the first time. LoL

    A curiosity: could you set flags (de)buff by (de)buff or only globally?

    If I understood correctly it’s per buff / debuff.

    IMHO, yes. A flag for only the AI to ignore it would be better(more player choice), but if that’s more work I don’t think it’s worth wasting your time on.

    The setting should already be there, it should only be flipping that Boolean in resources.

    #240058

    Zaskow
    Member

    Yes, make meditate undispellable please.

    This is pretty easy to do. Just need to change type of Meditate to Physical debuff. 😀

    #240074

    SikBok
    Keymaster

    This is pretty easy to do. Just need to change type of Meditate to Physical debuff.

    ‘Type Link’ is already set to ‘Physical Debuff’.
    And – iirc – will only change which type of dispel will effect the ability.

    The thing to change is the ‘AI Allow Dispel’.

    [Update]
    Just committed the change I described, so this fix will be in the next patch.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by  SikBok.
    #240076

    Many thanks!

    #240079

    HjAa
    Member

    Wonderful!! Thank you!

    #240080

    Zaskow
    Member

    ‘Type Link’ is already set to ‘Physical Debuff’.

    Are you sure? 😀

    The thing to change is the ‘AI Allow Dispel’.

    Not effective, because limit only AI players artificially.

    #240083

    Gloweye
    Member

    Not effective, because limit only AI players artificially.

    How so? If people somehow choose do dispel meditate, I don’t know why we should stop them.

    If the AI ignores it, it’s enough.

    #240222

    SikBok
    Keymaster

    Are you sure?

    Whoops, my bad.
    Confused my buffs and debuffs.

    Not effective, because limit only AI players artificially.

    It precisely addresses the issue raised by OP, so I think its the perfect fix.
    Also, I see no issue with artificially limiting an artificial intelligence ; )>

    #247533

    Hiliadan
    Member

    On a related topic, I just discovered that the AI loved to try to dispel Inspired, the buff from the Chtonic Guardian. I think it’s a waste of mana, CP and more importantly of “1 opportunity per combat round to cast a spell”. It would be ok if it dispelled it with Apprentice’s ability for instance but it’s a bit stupid for it to dispel it with its CP.

    From what I read in this post about Meditate, the only solutions would be either to make Inspired totally undispellable or to prevent the AI from dispelling it?

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