Archon Military

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This topic contains 26 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  Draxynnic 7 years, 3 months ago.

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  • #170076

    Hieronymous
    Member

    Because I can’t help myself, here’s an imagined lineup for the Archons. The character of the army is hopefully somewhat unique and interesting.

    Racial Characteristics – 40% spirit resist. +1 to Spirit Damage channels. +1 Resistance? If so, +10% unit cost might be in order, given they have no weakness.
    Archon Cities have a mana bonus and a gold penalty – Archons are spiritually powerful, but gilding everything in sight isn’t cheap.

    Hierodule – Tier 1 Irregular
    Temple slaves, pledged to the service of the Hierophants while young, Hierodules perform menial labor, assist in temple ceremonies, and act as couriers until they are of fighting age. Their lanterns are lit by a golden, undying flame with which to light paths and cast signals for their legionary brethren in even the worst conditions.
    – 32 Movement, Night Vision
    – Sacred Lantern – single shot spirit bolt. Spirit and physical damage in melee.
    – Illuminate – Adjacent allies get +100 Morale.
    – Volunteer.

    Eagle Bearers – Tier 1 Pikes
    – Polearm, Strike First, Pike Square.
    – +Spirit damage in melee. 60% Spirit Resistance. Minor Bard Skills.
    – Legion Banner – Adjacent Archon units inflict +1 spirit and physical damage on attacks, and have +200 Morale. However, every Eagle Bearer regiment that is slain in combat gives -100 Morale to allied Archon units for 3 turns.
    – Protect the Banner! – The Eagle Bearer regiment gets +1 Defense, phys/spirit melee damage, and resistance when reduced to half health. (And visually, the guy holding the banner is the last to die.)

    Fire Archers – Tier 1 Archers
    Squads of Archon soldiers with bows and braziers for lighting their arrows.

    – Short Bows, Shields
    – Flaming Arrows – +3 fire damage on arrows.
    – Brazier Smokescreen – Disables flaming arrows for 1 turn to throw up a smokescreen for 2 turns that boosts the archers’ defense and resistance. Activated like War Cry; that is, it’s basically a free action.

    Legionary – Tier 2 Infantry
    Archon Legionaries march shoulder to shoulder, creating high, impenetrable shield walls from which they hurl mighty spears to cripple foes as they advance.
    – Shield
    – Shield Wall – Legionaries adjacent to one another gain Defender.
    – Shield Glare – 3 turn cooldown. The Legionaries blind foes with light from their gilded shields. Activated ability, like War Cry. For 1 turn, they Inflict Dazzle on their melee attacks.
    – Spears Up! – Legionaries in Guard Mode gain Polearm and Pike Square.
    – Pilum – Single shot ranged physical. These heavy throwing spears catch in enemy shields and armor, weighing them down. Movement and defense malus on enemies with armor or shields.

    Charioteer – Tier 2.5 Cavalry
    Archon Chariots sacrifice speed for a heavy gilded chassis, with scythed wheels that scatter tight infantry formations as they shred them to pulp.

    – 32 MP, Armored, Projectile Resistance, Vulnerable to Demolisher
    – Short Bow, with a brazier on the chariot for flaming arrows. Medal boosts to arrow damage alternate between physical and fire.
    – Polearm, Strike First. Does not benefit from ‘Pike Square,’ however.
    – Scythed Wheels – Break Guard of infantry on charge. +5 damage vs Infantry on charge.
    – Devastating Charge on gold.

    Hierophant – Tier 2.5 Support
    Archon high priests do not bandy gentle words or benedictions, but smite their foes with furious thunder.

    – A bit tougher, stronger, and more robust than the average racial support.
    – +Lightning & Spirit damage in melee.
    – Strong Will
    – 60% Lightning protection.
    – Holy Thunder – Lightning/Spirit bolts.
    – Gains Inflict Stun, Shocking, Dazzle, or Daze on medal. Not sure. Something thundery. But I just realized Inflict Stun would be hideously OP on breath.
    – Thunder Cry – ‘Breath’ attack. Minor physical, spirit and lightning damage, and Inflicts Spirit Breaking. 3 turn cooldown.
    – Dispel Magic, Steal Enchantment on medal

    Archon Titan – Tier 4 Infantry
    ‘Nuff said.

    – Armored, Overwhelm, Wall Crushing, Demolisher, Mountaineering, Strong Will
    – Titan – Susceptible to Giant Slayer. Vision Range Upgrade.
    – Stomp – Bonus melee damage vs roughly man-sized units, but this might be too much.
    – 20% Fire/Cold/Lightning resistance. Eventually, 40%.
    – At Gold Medal, can hurl a fairly strong, 1-turn cooldown, single shot thunderbolt. (HoMM3 titans, anybody?)

    So. It actually falls to your infantry and pikes to support one another, with shield walls, lanterns, and the standard bearer pike regiments, while the actual support unit is off maging it up with thunder shouts and bolts.

    #170083

    Hieronymous
    Member

    Instead of their bolts and shout, Hierophants might throw a spirit and shock-based aoe blast, like fire bomb. But that feels a little spare. They’re practically a big magic archer, at that point, with no distinguishing support powers. Unsure.

    And my original plan had Legionaries being the pikes and shield infantry in one, until I realized that’s a bit too much like the Phalanx. So I’d remove the Spears Up! ability from them, probably.

    #170090

    Gyor
    Member

    Slaves don’t really fit the archons.

    #170097

    Hieronymous
    Member

    Yeah, you’re probably right. I just picked hierodule, which means sacred/temple slave, to go with hierophant. First name ideas for the irregular were ‘Fleet Foot,’ ‘Torchbearer’ (oops) and ‘Runner.’

    #170120

    Draxynnic
    Member

    I was going to give a more detailed description, but my browser tab froze and I don’t really have time to go over again from now.

    That said, though, historically the archons have had some of the most powerful healing around (including outright resurrection in Shadow Magic and multiple combat units with healing in AoW1). For an archon lineup to not have healing would be a bit weird.

    More comments to come, but in my mind, archons without strong healing just aren’t archons.

    #170209

    vota dc
    Member

    Archons have more resistance of the regular humans, but no more than the regular halflings, so they don’t need the +1 resistance. I would just give 20% spirit protection and +1 ranged and melee spirit IF present, no need the price increase for the class unit, maybe some racial unit could have a bigger base cost. We have to keep in mind that Archons of the previous games are THEOCRAT Archons.

    The early T 1 pike and T 2 melee sounds funny, I would give to the T 2 melee the pike slayer skill to help the cavalry, also the pilum should disable the shield.

    The chariot on the other side shouldn’t be a T 2.5 because is still puny compared to a mammoth! I would make it a glass cannon with some ranged ability, reinforced, shield and devastating charge but that melts in melee and needs T 2 infantry support.

    The T 2 support could be the saint. A lone saint archon with the equivalent of blight doctors skill but based on spirit. It could use some kind of spirit aura too, higher resistance, but less HP because he would be just one figure while other T 2 support are three figures.
    I had the idea from the first scenario of Babylon campaign in Age of Empires where you start with just one priest.

    Titan should be 100% fire protected.

    #170229

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Okay, somewhat more detailed thoughts:

    As vota said (and this was in my initial writeup) archons don’t actually have resistances that much higher than humans. Spirit protection is probably sufficient, particularly if you do consider the historical archons to have been theocrats.

    Possibly something like 40% Spirit Protection, Holy Champion, and Devout. The latter could be an interesting synergy if the archons have an ability to mark heretics… but mostly it’s there as the downside to being an archon.

    Aesthetic-wise, I’m somewhat tempted to progress them to Byzantine to make it easier to come up with a pikemen and an infantry unit, although that may not be necessary. Either way, though, here are the design considerations that I would have if I was making the lineup:

    * As noted above, archons without great healing aren’t really archons. They should also be good at hurting undead, but Holy Champion combined with a high availability of spirit magic should do most of that. If that’s not enough, then distribute Turn Undead liberally, as in previous installments.

    * To me, the Paladin, as a hybrid between a support unit and cavalry, is much more iconic to the archons than the chariot.

    * The Titan, while closely allied to archons, is not itself an archon. Personally, I’d like to see the pegasus rider return. If yet another flying cavalry is too samey, though, it could be a souped-up chariot, a souped-up support unit (Saint or Avenger), Avengers as a souped-up irregular unit, or something else.

    #170257

    Hieronymous
    Member

    The Titan could be a weird, divinely/whatever-touched morph of a regular Archon, as the Sphinx is for the Tigrans. To me, the Archons just don’t feel complete without their titans, and I hate the idea of the other races being able to march with them as mere Dwelling recruits. I honestly think all the racial lineups should be shaken up a bit, giving some T4 units, or extra T2’s and siege weapons, etc.
    And yeah, I skipped Pegasus because we’ve already got Gryphons, Eagles, Flyers, and now, Sphinxes, though I briefly considered a Pegasus-drawn chariot.

    The Saint, just by name alone, seems like a higher tier than the average racial support, or even a unique, Theocrat-only Archon unit. I never really liked the Saint, though, and purposely left it out to try and explore something different. Maybe some Archon units could get a ‘healing touch’ power. Heal 5 with 2 turn cooldown, Heal 10 with 3 turn cooldown, or Heal 10 once per battle, or something. But yes, the support probably needs straight-up Healing as its basic support power, or maybe a healing spell that also cleanses debuffs. Or an aura-type healing spell that healed everyone in base contact. ‘Base contact…’ I should say, directly adjacent. Warhammer and Mordheim have infected my thoughts.

    Devout and/or Holy Champion as racial traits could be interesting. Forgot about Turn Undead. Yes that probably needs representation somewhere in the list.

    As for Paladins, I guess I felt Theocrat Crusaders were enough if someone wanted paladin-like units.

    @vota dc
    You’re absolutely right. Chariot would have to be bumped down. I dislike Titan having fire immunity, even if he did in AOWSM, and edged toward a heavenly, stormy, thunder theme for them and the hierophants, High Elves be damned.

    #170405

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Crusaders are paladin-like thematically, but if archons are reintroduced as a race, I don’t think they’re a substitute for the paladins that have been a key part of the archon lineup in each previous installment (especially when fighting undead).

    When it comes to titans – I’d have to do some digging to find the article in question that isn’t convenient to do on the phone, but titans are explicitly not just overgrown archons. They’re explicitly a type of giant – specifically, the titans were the leadership caste of the giants that directed them, on behalf of the Allfather, in their duties during the shaping of Athla.

    #170409

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Given the previous lore, I really don’t think you can squeeze Titans in as a tier 3 racial unit. It frankly has to be a T4, and among the stronger T4s.

    At any rate, I obviously want Archons back, as they were by far my favorite race – in fact, the only race I played pretty much (is this surprising, given my AoW 3 tendencies? ;)!

    Edit:
    Ok, my mistake. I thought the OP had Titans as a T3, but he has them as a T4. That’s an even bigger no-no. I don’t ever want to see a racial T4.

    #170413

    Thariorn
    Member

    Hmmm, I dunno, I feel like if we have Archon Revenants as a Dwelling, we can only get Archons back as a Dwelling (to allow Purify/Desecrate options on Archon Dwellings :P).

    Would feel weird to have (racial) Titans killing (un)dead dwelling-Titans :S

    I’d go with Byzantine theme for them too tho.
    In AoW4 thexy’ll be PErsians then and in 5 Chinese and…. *insert next AOW and another random (ancient) highculture*

    #170424

    Stormwind
    Member

    Aw, when I read the title I thought you meant something like :
    http://www.achrongame.com/site/

    Age of Wonders with time travel…that could be kinda cool too.

    #170431

    Nerdfish
    Member

    I really like the idea of T2 infantry.
    Perhaps Archons should have their Pikes and Inf at T2 and archers and Cavs as T1 Auxiliary.
    Works well as a dwelling too.

    #170433

    Fenraellis
    Member

    (Pardon my following theorycrafting)

    * The Titan, while closely allied to archons, is not itself an archon. Personally, I’d like to see the pegasus rider return. If yet another flying cavalry is too samey, though, it could be a souped-up chariot, a souped-up support unit (Saint or Avenger), Avengers as a souped-up irregular unit, or something else.

    A fair enough point. Harkening back to the original game, the Titans and Valkyries were part of the Highmen line up, but not Highmen themselves(lacking the innate True Seeing and such that even their basic Infanty and Archers had).

    A very combat oriented T3 ‘Support’-Irregular(I could see it going either way, but really its skill set and combat style suits Irregular better) Avenger with Strong Will, Spirit Blast(I think that’s the name of the single-shot on Lesser Spirit Elementals), Turn Undead, high Resistance(13 on a non-Support?). Also, instead of Holy Champion, although that’s a decent setup against Evil/Monster/Undead, how about a sort of innate ‘Bane of the Unnatural’, albeit weaker in amplification, and as a result it excludes anti-Evil.

    The Avenger would be mediocre at best against normal racial fighting units and Machines(i.e. bad against Warlord/Dread/Theocrat in particular), aside from the value of high Resistance and a single shot ranged attack, but it would be a terror against the Bane of the Unnatural target types of enemies(i.e. Summon-using Druid/Sorc, later-game Rogue and Necro in general, and many Dwelling units).
    Physical, with minor Fire/Spirit on its melee(enhanced with its special ability against the right targets) is a given.

    Mmm, Avenger:
    — 65 HP
    — 11 Def/13 Res
    — 32 Move(no special move settings, unless we really wanted to make them like the old Avengers who essentially had Free Movement + Swimming to chase their targets anywhere). Greater than 28 for their particular Zeal to catch their target.
    — Melee Strike: 11 Physical, 2 Spirit, 2 Fire
    — Spirit Blast(ranged): 15 Spirit
    (OR)
    — Spiritual Radiance: medium(10-ish) ##Spirit Strength 1 or 2 radius radial aoe from the Avenger(…a Spirit-based Round attack of sorts). Can apply Inflict effects and Higher Calling. 1 or 2 turn CD, depending on the functionality of the move.
    — Higher Calling: +3 Spirit, +3 Fire Strength(Ranged and Melee) against Monster/Undead/Summoned/Magical Origin targets (no bonus against Fey/Giant/Dragon). If possible, I would even consider adding ‘enemies dedicated to other alignments than this unit’, but that may be tricky.
    — Turn Undead
    — 20% Fire/Frost/Shock Protection, like a Monster Hunter. Spirit Protection is Strong Will + Racial bonus. Physical is base. Blight is either base, or 20% Protection.
    — +Racial modifiers
    — At Bronze = + Spirit Breaking
    — At Gold = +Blinding Aura or Instant Wrath(can be a rank upgrade) or even Shield of Light(especially if it applies the passive non-stacking Spirit Weakness effect!)
    — +1 Spirit ranged strength upgrades at Bronze and Gold. Normal HP/Def/Res upgrades, and alternating Spirit and Fire Melee strength.

    So, as mentioned, mediocre at best against normal T3 fighters with their modest HP and Def(even Ice Queens have 12 Def), but powerful against elemental-based enemies and an outright terror against those things which go bump in the night.

    —–
    Just my own idea for an Avenger like unit that has its own niche within the current unit matrix.

    As for other units, Paladin as a Cavalry with a once-per-battle unique ‘Lay on Hands’ ability, or just Bestow Iron Heart, would fit them VERY well.

    Saint as their Support should work. Either with the outright Healing ability(an odd counter-synergy to playing Theocrat, but meh), or some new unique ability such as an ability which applies combat Regrowth(or some other flat healing rate for combat, or #-turns duration). Combat Resurrection on a racial T2 Support would be way too good, unfortunately. Yes I know the unique ability I proposed is pretty darned good, too, so that’s saying something. Turn Undead is a given for them.
    Maybe they would have innate Floating, in honor of Shadow Magic, but… they didn’t in the original(where most of my concept is based on here), so it’s probably best to avoid that.

    I quite liked the OPs Legionary idea for a T2 infantry, actually, albeit mostly for the Shield, Shield Wall and Spears Up! abilities. That alone makes them very solid, so I wouldn’t give them Shield Glare or Pilum(besides their T3 Melee would have some form of non-melee attack already).

    Archers with Shields due to formations is a nice idea, but they would have to sacrifice something for that. Combat Slow effect, or a damage loss of some sort. They could regain something like those Fire Arrows the OP proposed at Gold rank, but not before.
    To be honest, I would actually steal Blessed Arrows from Humans and give them to the Archon Archers, while giving the Humans something else(maybe even just the Fire Arrows from here instead), but who knows.

    Pike unit, since the Legionary idea fits quite well as a T2 Infantry as above, is tricky. A Banner Bearer idea like yours is interesting, although it would obviously need tweaking as appropriate.

    Irregular would probably just be their Militia from AoW2, except with the ability to fire a single shot Spirit projectile as well. I would say give them their Spirit Puppet unit, which was immune to all except for Fire and Physical, and generally an odd little unit, but that’s not a racial unit.

    —–

    Anyway, enough of that for now.

    #170456

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Here’s the stuff on the titans: http://ageofwonders.com/dev-journal-the-powers-and-lore-of-giants/

    I’d go with Byzantine theme for them too tho.
    In AoW4 thexy’ll be Persians then and in 5 Chinese and…. *insert next AOW and another random (ancient) highculture*

    Actually, there is a thematic link running between the classical Greeks, the Romans, and the Byzantines. The Byzantine Empire was essentially the portion of the Roman Empire that survived the fall of the Western Roman Empire – in fact, the Byzantines themselves never used the term. They regarded themselves as the true Roman empire (as opposed to the German “Holy Roman Empire”, which as the joke in the period went, was neither holy, Roman, nor an empire) although over the centuries Greek influences began to win out.

    Additionally, while contemporary history tended to downplay its influence due to the conflict between Orthodox and Catholic denominations, the Byzantine Empire was important in maintaining European culture, both in being a part that didn’t collapse when the west did, and because of the way it shielded Europe from invasion from the Middle East until the rest of Europe could recover from the Dark Ages. In fact, some historians think that the fall of the Byzantine Empire in the 1400s was a contributing factor to the Renaissance, as it meant an exodus of educated people, particularly people educated in classical modes of thought, into the rest of Europe at a time when the rest of Europe had become receptive to those ideas again.

    So, basically, it’s extending the same general theme in a less anachronistic form. Persians and Chinese and other random ancient cultures would be departing from the theme.

    Also, instead of Holy Champion, although that’s a decent setup against Evil/Monster/Undead, how about a sort of innate ‘Bane of the Unnatural’, albeit weaker in amplification, and as a result it excludes anti-Evil.

    Well, one of the things I didn’t like so much about Holy Champions is that it’s fire – the archons had some association with fire through the Astra, but it wasn’t that strong. Possibly it could be something that adds spirit damage when attacking undead or Dedicated to Evil units.

    They could also have a downside that they get significant happiness penalties when sharing a stack with one of those units. They don’t actually have Dedicated to Good, because archons are prone to fanaticism in seeking to achieve their goals which can look like evil to others (and at best is invoking ends justifying the means) but even when they’re taking dubious actions themselves, they don’t like associating with (what they regard as) true evil.

    or some new unique ability such as an ability which applies combat Regrowth(or some other flat healing rate for combat, or #-turns duration).

    That’s pretty much what I was thinking. Another possibility – especially if combined with healing paladins – is a ‘holy cleansing’ ability (name up for consideration) which provides a heal and also removes debuffs (possibly limited to blight-based debuffs, like a Cure Disease with a heal attached).

    As for other units, Paladin as a Cavalry with a once-per-battle unique ‘Lay on Hands’ ability, or just Bestow Iron Heart, would fit them VERY well.

    I’d be inclined to give them a once-per-battle heal of about 10. Not a huge amount, but I think having cavalry with any heal at all will have a big enough strategic effect that that’s all that’s really necessary. Turn Undead could come as a medal upgrade.

    #170458

    Nerdfish
    Member

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triarii

    Hastati or Triarii would be an good option for a T2 pike units. However, historic Triarii and Hastati did not have pikes, they had spears and did not fight in pike walls.

    It’s hard to think of a roman unit that fought in pike walls, mostly because Romans were defined by their dislikes for that tactic.

    I just had the idea, what if legions are both sword and spear unit for archons ?

    Paladin with lay on hands is a brilliant idea.

    #170495

    Draxynnic
    Member

    At the time the Romans had triarii, they fought in phalanx-like formations similar to the Greeks, although as you observe the hastae was a relatively short spear rather than a true pike. On the other hand, despite the term, I don’t think there are any true pikes in AoW3 – the weapons used by units classed as pikemen usually appear to be around 6-10′ long. So a unit based on them would work, albeit being a little anachronistic when combined with legionaries (which mostly fought as swordsmen in melee).

    It’s part of the reason, in fact, why I suggested progressing to the Byzantines – as I think they did have both what AoW3 would call infantry and what AoW3 would call pikemen. (Also, incidentally, allows for javelineers as the tier 0 irregular if one doesn’t go for something more exotic, although this would overlap somewhat with orcs and archons probably do deserve something more exotic there. Thinking on it, both legionnairies and some Byzantine units effectively fought as infantry with a couple of javelins to give some melee capability, so I’d probably make archon infantry behave like this – carry a javelin for a single ranged attack, otherwise fight as sword-and-shield infantry. Another point of possible distinction is using the solenarion as a means of generating a unique archer, although I’m not familiar enough with it to know just how it would be translated into AoW3 terms.)

    #170512

    I like the idea of the Archons progressing to Byzantine Times. As long as they don’t get too Byzantine of course, we wouldn’t want them to suddenly have emperors and gladiators and some such.

    Likewise the temle slave, as others said before, has to go, that doesn’t fit with how the Archons were portrayed. After all they are basically humans ascended to a semi-divine status. So I was actually not that much a fan of them being suddenly so extremely Roman in AoW 2 and Shadowmagic.
    Though I’m also a bit fumbling to find a better name for the OP envisioned here…the best I can come up with is either Acolyte or making it female and call it a Temple Maiden/Virgin.

    With the Sphinx being hand waved as a special kind of Tigran, there’s nothing against having the Titan as a special kind of Archon. I always assumed that ascended human souls reincarnate as Archons, so how about the idea that a Titan is multiple ascended souls incarnated as a single, colossal and powerful being?
    Though personally I’d also prefer a flying unit. Too bad angels are already covered…something like the Asura again? Would be doubly awesome since it would work against the Greco-Roman theme.

    #170515

    Nerdfish
    Member

    Hold on a sec. emperors and gladiators and some such existed in Roman Empire, before Byzantine.

    And Archon would not have slaves or gladiators just because they have a classical military society, they are too righteous for it.

    The funny thing is. The Term Archon refers to an GREEK political office.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archon

    I don’t know if Archons should have more curves in their architecture. I personally wouldn’t mind it.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_architecture

    #170518

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Though personally I’d also prefer a flying unit. Too bad angels are already covered…something like the Asura again? Would be doubly awesome since it would work against the Greco-Roman theme.

    I suggested the return of the pegasus rider (although that’s also Greek) – potentially with some new abilities so it’s distinct from the existing flying units. For instance, the mythological Pegasus could create magical springs by stamping his hooves – a unit inspired by this could have an ability that allows them to provide some boost to nearby units through creating such a spring. (One lazy way of doing this could be to give it a once-per-battle ability to generate a Healing Showers effect centered on itself.)

    Titans, I referenced above. They’re giants who were allied to the archons, not archons themselves. Besides, we should probably also leave space for the syrons, who explicitly do have members of their race with gigantism.

    #172103

    Hold on a sec. emperors and gladiators and some such existed in Roman Empire, before Byzantine.

    The Byzantine Empire still had emperors. I admit I forgot about the gladiators being dissolved in the 2nd (?) century, but they did exist much longer unofficially, I think I conflated them with the chariot racers of Constantinople. I’m not sure it would be very Archon-like to indulge in competition? Not sure…what do others think?

    And Archon would not have slaves or gladiators just because they have a classical military society, they are too righteous for it.

    That was my point… I would not want them to be swallowed up completely by a cultural identity at the expense of their original identity/concept.
    I played a mod for Shadowmagic once that actually gave them gladiators and vestal virgins and emperors and all such. I meant I hope I don’t see a repetition of that.

    I don’t know if Archons should have more curves in their architecture. I personally wouldn’t mind it.

    If you look at the Hagia Sophia/Blue Mosque it does look very…regal? Clerical?
    It is this weird combination of ethereal and veiling? It’s not nearly as airy as Greek or Roman architecture was, much darker and very ornate, same with the clothes. I think it would fit a version of the Archons that fights a losing battle for the Multiverse.

    #172110

    the emperor of the byzantine empire castrated my son once because I kept him imprisoned for 20 years and went independent with the country of Sicily. also he poked out all eyes of every vassal I had. that person is not an nice guy you know and especially not good.

    still I think that the archons should be byzantine based. or add least late roman.

    #172115

    I suggested the return of the pegasus rider (although that’s also Greek) – potentially with some new abilities so it’s distinct from the existing flying units. For instance, the mythological Pegasus could create magical springs by stamping his hooves – a unit inspired by this could have an ability that allows them to provide some boost to nearby units through creating such a spring. (One lazy way of doing this could be to give it a once-per-battle ability to generate a Healing Showers effect centered on itself.)

    I admit that would be very cool! And well, Pegasoi, like many elements of Greek mythology eventually found their way into pan-European culture.

    Titans, I referenced above. They’re giants who were allied to the archons, not archons themselves. Besides, we should probably also leave space for the syrons, who explicitly do have members of their race with gigantism.

    Sphinxes were retconned to be mutated Tigrans, Gluttons were retconned to be Nagas, it would be easy to retcon Titans to be gigantic Archons.
    But I do see your point and yes, we should avoid repetition like that.

    #172182

    Gyor
    Member

    We already have Archon Titans, and it spefically calls them Archon Titans (okay they’re undead, but its still true. The reason why Archons shouldn’t get Titans is because Titans are a Tier 4 unit, although a secret Summon Titan or a Specialization Spell for a new Specialization with a Summon Titan Spell could work. Here is the think, whatever you do to the Archons, they will be compared to they’re undead breathern, so either the living race mirrors some what from the Undead Dwelling, or you create a meaningful twist that sets the living Archons on a very different cultural/evovlutionary path then the Reverant Archons, perhaps including a name change. So how does one twist the Archons, especially when one can play evil shadowborn Archons?

    I say focus more on the fact that the Archons have been traveling the planes, both good and bad, so I’d focus on giving them a planetouched feel.

    As for Roman Culture, Archons are evovled. from human beings so while the Archons Athlas has experience with show a Grecoroman style, other Archons could have evovled from very different human cultures. In fact any Archons introduced as a living race might have had no connection to the original Archon settlers at all, and might even be in conflict with the original race of Archons. Heck the original race of Archons could be but a small segment of a much larger Archon Culture.

    #172200

    Gyor
    Member

    An Example thought maybe the race as a whole are called Highmen, but the local subrace traditional to this world is call the Archons and an subrace of Highmen came, maybe based on Ghana Empire of Africa instead of Grecoroman, have a conflict with the Archons because of how they handled Athlas and because of the Necropolis on Athlas see the Archons, even the living as tainted, and as such come to clean up the Archons mess, only for the curse to sublte infect them as well, making them less pure and more corruptable.

    #172554

    Well “High Men” as a race name was apparently removed because it sounded too much like “hymen” and I guess they chose Archonians because they were at a loss at what else to call them, though Archons do exist in gnosticism as servants of the Demiurge, which sorta fits the Archons in AoW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archon#Gnosticism

    I do like the idea of other “cultures” of Archons from around the multiverse, same with Elves really, they seem to be just as widespread as Archons, since the two races work together on a multiversal scale.

    #172558

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Here is the think, whatever you do to the Archons, they will be compared to they’re undead breathern, so either the living race mirrors some what from the Undead Dwelling,

    First, dwellings obviously work under different rules. The undead archon dwelling also has wraiths and wraith kings which never had anything to do with living archons except as enemies. (I’d also think that an introduction of living archons would necessarily require that the current archon titan be renamed to avoid confusion, possibly simply to ‘revenant titan’.)

    Second, there are ways to explain the sphinxes and gluttons without either being a retcon. The only thing that makes the sphinx appear not-tigran is the face – tigrans in AoW2 shared with draconians the title of the most physically morphic Athlan race. The human face could purely have been an illusionary affectation that was dropped over the centuries. Gluttons are a little more complicated, but could be explained simply by gluttons being a mix of naga and orc all along. Or the nagas could have adopted gluttons that wandered in to their territory, without those gluttons actually technically being naga (they lack quite a few of the traits that other naga have in common)

    However, both of these really only have a fairly ‘shallow’ influence on AoW lore. Archons and titans, however, are key figures in Athla’s multiverse and creation. Changing the relationship between them will fundamentally rock the bedrock of AoW’s lore in a way that reimagining a couple of isolated (if high-tier) units in AoW2 would not. Particularly considering that this lore includes the archons being ascended humans – a relationship that becomes more difficult to explain if there are suddenly giants as part of the archon race rather than simply being allies. (It can be explained, sure. You can make up an explanation for anything. However, just because you can come up with an explanation doesn’t mean that it’s a good idea to do what you’re coming up with the explanation to justify.)

    Even if we put the lore consideration aside, there’s also a balance consideration. The existing undead titans are tier 4. To incorporate them with living archons, you have three options:

    1) Make the living archons a dwelling. I’ve given reasons in the past why this might actually be the most fitting treatment, although it would be disappointing on some levels to have them only available as a dwelling that you may or may not find than as a race you can play. This would also resolve the lore issue, since as noted above, dwellings follow different rules – a dwelling usually has a common theme, but there are allowed to be groups of allied but otherwise not closely related creatures in a dwelling.

    2) Make the titan a tier 3 unit. At which case, you have the comparison between the living and unloving archons again, but instead of being about having titans versus not having them, it’s about wondering why the undead titan is that much more powerful than the living. Also raises the question of how the tier 3 titans were able to control and direct the other (tier 4) giants.

    3) Make the archons a special race that has a tier 4 unit. This… is a potential balance nightmare. I know some people want racial tier 4s, but I don’t think it’s appropriate to have one race have one while the others do not, nor do I think it’s appropriate to try to use one race as a ‘thin edge of the wedge’ to push them.

    Finally, there’s that bit where we also need to consider other races. Syrons without their giant warriors (which were their only representatives in AoW1, and explicitly were members of the syron race that just happened to grow bigger) just wouldn’t be syrons. If we were to have both – and it wouldn’t surprise me if they both appeared in the same expansion – they would need to be distinct (particularly if they are released simultaneously), and they’ll keep that distinction much better if they don’t both have giants as their tier 3s. Archons have lots of good options for a tier 3, while syrons basically have one.

    As for Roman Culture, Archons are evovled. from human beings so while the Archons Athlas has experience with show a Grecoroman style, other Archons could have evovled from very different human cultures. In fact any Archons introduced as a living race might have had no connection to the original Archon settlers at all, and might even be in conflict with the original race of Archons. Heck the original race of Archons could be but a small segment of a much larger Archon Culture.

    It’s a possibility, but remember that the majority of the “original Archons” left shortly after Shadow Magic, the revenants are the result of someone desecrating the tombs they left behind.

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