Are Public Baths, Hospitals and Grand Temples any good?

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Are Public Baths, Hospitals and Grand Temples any good?

This topic contains 45 replies, has 22 voices, and was last updated by  Gloweye 6 years, 8 months ago.

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  • #223991

    Zakharov
    Member

    I almost never find myself building any of these buildings. They’re expensive, and the time taken to build them could generally be better spent on unit production buildings or units. Is there something I’m missing?

    #223993

    Hieronymous
    Member

    From my mostly single player perspective, yeah. I like happiness events in my cities, which the bath and hospital help attain. Great Temple is costly but, meh, more mana income is nice. Besides that, can’t get a Grand Palace without them. But, I imagine most MP demands less dawdling over city upgrades.

    #224002

    Gehennas
    Member

    1. Great temples are good for caster classes like AD, Sorc or Necro. Your need in mana will grow fast enough to consider building great temples.

    2. Public bath is not so useful but it pays off in long term.

    3. Hospitals are not so useful but you need them for Grand palaces.

    This is from SP point of view, of course.

    #224007

    Gloweye
    Member

    Agree on Great Temples for Necro. The class can really starve from mana.

    #224014

    Zakharov
    Member

    I haven’t had many mana troubles as a necro; building shrines in most cities covers it, building temples in every city would be overkill before having to resort to grand temples.

    #224015

    Garresh
    Member

    Grand Temples are useful for rogue in mid and lategame or if going deep into aggressive casting. I generally dump gold into a handful of them around turn 50-80 to prep for the hardcore spell wars if a game is going that long. Baths are meh. Same for hospitals.

    #224019

    How would you make them less “meh ?”

    #224036

    Motasa
    Member

    How would you make them less “meh ?”

    With modding tools! 🙂

    Seriously though, I also rarely build Public Baths and Hospitals. Grand Temples are useful for the caster classes who generally build the prerequisite Shrine and Temple for the support units and extra mana income. As a Warlord or a Dreadnought, for example, I won’t waste resources on the Shrine, let alone the Grand Temple.

    I think the Public Baths are to costly for the early game. It just costs to much time and gold to build them and their bonus is either a hit or miss. The extra 100 happiness can get your city to higher happiness level, but most of time I still need to rely on Terraformer to get my cities to a higher happiness level. Because of that, I almost solely build them when in mid to late game (when my cities grow to metropolises), since then I’ve got enough gold and production to build them quickly and I have Terraformer researched. The “problem” with this building is that it isn’t really worthwhile to build it early. A town or village with a small domain and just a modest amount of income with a positive modifier thanks to building a Public Baths isn’t nearly as lucrative as a city or metropolis with a large amount of income.

    The same goes for the Hospital, when having such a large city, the added population growth isn’t why I build them. I build those generally in frontline cities/metropolises where there is heavy fighting (20% healing can come in handy). The cost of this building and the time to build it, however, can really screw the production of units. So in an average game (medium map size, 4-6 players) I build 0-2 hospitals.

    To get to Grand Palaces is for me nearly impossible, since wasting my time and resources to build all prerequisite buildings takes forever. Besides, it goes against my general strategy to specialize cities. The extra happiness doesn’t matter that much at this point and the extra 10 casting points aren’t worth the hassle. Racial Governance tiers affecting Grand Palaces make my choice really easy; go for the military upgrade. Maybe this building is for those that play beyond 100 turns.

    #224037

    kwibus
    Member

    Public baths and hospitals repay themselves on the long term and it will improve your production as well!

    They generate happiness and an happy city produces more of everything (hammers,gold,mana)

    Actually it are buildings that aren’t top priority, but if possible I try to build them asap since it improves your economy quite a bit.

    Great temples if you need a lot of mana capacity and mana.

    #224104

    @ Motas, 😛

    I meant what effects would you give these buildings, how would you price them etc?

    I’m in an Xl game as Warlord and have yet to build a hospital…

    I typically go production and research.

    Rarely do I need any extra mana, and I’m too busy recruiting and fighting to bother with hospitals!

    I’m starting to think maybe the building chain is too clogged up?

    For a mod, maybe make Grand Palaces unlock t4 racial units (because you know those will come back!)

    #224110

    Garresh
    Member

    Well we can’t overdo it with happiness, so the question becomes do we lower the costs of public baths and hospitals, or add additional effects? Personally I think the baths could maybe increase growth again and reduce cost of settlers? Hospitals are rarely used, but totally have a place in siege scenarios potentially…

    The issue is baths are the weak link. If they get buffed hospitals might follow without needing a buff younknow?

    #224125

    I do think all those building are fine the way they are, but I have a couple os suggestion to make them more interesting:

    – Grand Temple: Same that I suggested on the Node Serpent Thread, each temple you own granted a 5% Summoning CP reduction (to a max of 30-50%)

    – Hospital: If you defend in a city with a Hospital you will start the defence with an extra unit called Field Doctor)
    – Field Doctor: Tier 2, 40HP, 10def, 10res, low attack/no ranged option, First Aid Ability (No cooldown, Heal 10-15 both to living and undeads that also removes anything that Cure disease does). He is there just to heal/removes diseases. I know First Aid is very strong, but it would be linked just to this unit in the game. It will require a new unit, so I don’t see it happening, unless someone modd it.

    Thre could be something similar to what I suggested to Hospital Linked to one of the prodction building, that granted a extra unit on the field that would be a Balista.

    – Public Bath: Nothing comes to my mind.

    #224129

    – Public Bath: Nothing comes to my mind.

    Clean civilians means less stinky peasants to bother the rich and noble elite of the society, giving an increase in tax from their side (+X amount of gold for every size increase your city has)

    #224136

    ephafn
    Member

    One possibility for the Public Baths would be something similar to the Necro Embalmer Guild: +5 HP for every living units produced in the town. Grand Temples could get a +1 medal to units summoned in domain buff.

    #224142

    Hieronymous
    Member

    I know Shrines for racial supports was too easy, but now it’s just weird that the Temple is both their prerequisite, and their medal building. Move the medal up to the Great Temple. Not that that creates the greatest incentive to shell out for a Great Temple, but still.

    Maybe the Public Bath could give bonus happiness to units trained or garrisoned at that city? (probably OP for Halflings though) Pop growth would make sense; Cleaner, more attractive people, and fewer dying from filth and disease. (And for goblins, a grand public cesspool to splash around in) My first thought was, well, +gold income, but I notice that no city buildings innately give gold income, and I figure that’s intentional.

    Hospitals could give an ‘inoculation’ bonus of +20% blight resist to trained living units, but that might be OP vs goblins, forcing more reliance on Plague Doctors / other sources of Weaken.

    #224146

    thabob79
    Member

    Maybe great temple could reduce cost for own spells and raise cost for enemy’s that target the city (maybe upkeep too).
    Bath: maybe à buff for some turns that add morale or blight resist to units stationned in the city
    Hospital could reduce population loss from combat spells (or global)

    #224153

    Motasa
    Member

    I meant what effects would you give these buildings, how would you price them etc?

    To answer this question I think I have to use the question of Garresh.

    Well we can’t overdo it with happiness, so the question becomes do we lower the costs of public baths and hospitals, or add additional effects?

    For 150 gold you can do so much more than build a Public Baths. It either needs to cost significantly less (say 100 gold) or it needs something extra. I like that the Store House grants population growth, the Public Baths happiness and the Hospital doubles these effects. It’s just that the price of this chain of buildings and the production needed to build them requires you to put more useful things on hold; military , research and extra-production buildings or units.

    I’m too busy recruiting and fighting to bother with hospitals!

    I share this stance towards Hospitals. Therefore I’m inclined to favour reducing the costs of both the Public Baths and Hospital with 50, for example. Increasing the happiness makes building this building almost a no-brainer, since then you need to add something meaningful, like 50 extra happiness. But that is something I don’t want and doesn’t really sway my decision to build them yes-or-no. My major gripe with these buildings is that I consider building them past halfway into a game, when I’m overproducing units and other buildings that help me directly in my war-effort. So for me it is a reduction in cost, that would make me think about building them earlier and possible more often.

    the Temple is both their prerequisite, and their medal building

    Actually, it is the Laboratory that gives Support units its extra medal. Personally I think that’s a bit odd, but think the Grand Temple is a building with a price too steep to allocate the Support-medal to.

    #224156

    Zakharov
    Member

    The medal for supports is on the Laboratory.

    My suggestion: Switch the order of Hospital and Public Baths. Make Hospital cost 100G, give +100 happiness and heals every unit in the city domain by 50% of their max HP per turn. Make Public Baths cost 200G, +150 happiness +100 pop. Getting an early Hospital is a way to regen your early creeping units if you keep them near your hospital city.

    Maybe Grand Temple should grant truesight in the city’s domain? Supports get truesight, so it’s thematically appropriate for the support chain to give truesight.

    #224169

    quo
    Member

    I think they’d be most interesting if given conditional effects, so they aren’t needed in every city but are good when used in ideal locations.

    Grand Palace: Heart structures within this city’s domain operate as Spelljammers, radius 6 tiles

    Grand Temple: Any Mana Node in domain that receives a Mana Node Bonus from specializations has a small chance each turn to conjure a minor elemental

    Public Bath: Inns can offer armies as gifts, just like vassals can

    Granary: Haste Berries take half as long to recharge

    Harbor: Trading Posts occasionally procure magical items

    #224242

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Hospitals are rarely used, but totally have a place in siege scenarios potentially…

    Something like 3HP healing per combat round to friendly non-Machine/Undead/Elemental(let’s be realistic on Elementals). Useful, but not that overbearing for the attacker to overcome either. Or simply 15HP per combat round to lowest HP friendly unit.

    Possibly even only to friendly units still inside the walls(like how they changed Defensive Structures to only attack enemy units outside walls only).

    #224252

    alf978
    Member

    Hospitals are rarely used, but totally have a place in siege scenarios potentially…

    Something like 3HP healing per combat round to friendly non-Machine/Undead/Elemental(let’s be realistic on Elementals). Useful, but not that overbearing for the attacker to overcome either. Or simply 15HP per combat round to lowest HP friendly unit.

    Possibly even only to friendly units still inside the walls(like how they changed Defensive Structures to only attack enemy units outside walls only).

    I was thinking along those same lines, but strategically.
    What if it were to give 3hp per turn for friendly units inside the domain, to help with early clearing, and cycling out wounded units?
    Make it an earlier investment to compete in the building chain. It would help Elves primarily, but also Orcs with too damaged units where Victory Rush isn’t enough to compensate. Goblins could get essentially fast healing inside their domain? just a thought…

    #224255

    Garresh
    Member

    TBH, I feel that tech branch shouldn’t directly affect combat. THat’s more the Production branch and the military branch. With that being said, it’s interesting to me that cities can increase mana gains, but gold requires time for the city to grow. With that being the case, that particular tech branch is the closest thing to a gold increasing branch. Perhaps giving Public Baths like 10 gold per turn in addition to minor happiness?That alone would be enough to justify the purchase.

    #224286

    Leon Feargus
    Member

    These are my favorite solutions:

    – Hospital: If you defend in a city with a Hospital you will start the defence with an extra unit called Field Doctor)
    – Field Doctor: Tier 2, 40HP, 10def, 10res, low attack/no ranged option, First Aid Ability (No cooldown, Heal 10-15 both to living and undeads that also removes anything that Cure disease does). He is there just to heal/removes diseases. I know First Aid is very strong, but it would be linked just to this unit in the game. It will require a new unit, so I don’t see it happening, unless someone modd it.

    The extra unit is not needed imo, just make it like the racial defensive building.

    Grand Temples could get a +1 medal to units summoned in domain buff.

    Not massively powerful,but ah well.

    With that being said, it’s interesting to me that cities can increase mana gains, but gold requires time for the city to grow. With that being the case, that particular tech branch is the closest thing to a gold increasing branch. Perhaps giving Public Baths like 10 gold per turn in addition to minor happiness?That alone would be enough to justify the purchase.

    I would think +5 gold is sufficient.

    #224290

    NINJEW
    Member

    if public baths gave +10 gold every turn on top of happiness i would always build them in every city as a high priority building

    #224302

    Crivvens
    Member

    I like the +gold concept, and while the summon medal sounds neat I’m always wary of dumping medals on things. Area healing on the hospital also sounds pretty good, though 3hp sounds pretty anemic.

    #224339

    Garresh
    Member

    if public baths gave +10 gold every turn on top of happiness i would always build them in every city as a high priority building

    Eh I suppose. A lot of people in MP don’t even build storehouses since long term investments are usually not necessarily worth it. Factoring in all costs, it would take 25 turns to break even on gold. I would definitely make it a priority, but I don’t feel that it would outclass other structures vying for my attention.

    #224340

    ExNihil
    Member

    Perhaps if Hospitals gave Support units a Field Medic ability to enhance sustain they would be worth it, or alternatively give all produced units +3-5 HP base. As it stands there is really no reason to go there in MP usually. Same goes for Public Baths, funds need to go elsewhere. Perhaps Public Baths could increase morale of stationed troops as well, which will be a nice addition.

    Store Houses need to be cheaper, I say -25 gold to -50 gold, and then they will be a must have building.

    Grand Temple is really a wasted building, for a t3 building it gives too little return, I would like it to give +10 more mana at least, or possibly to give the +1 domain radius you currently receive from stone walls (problematic). Alternatively it could give a serious defensive bonus, say +2 resistance or +1 resistance and +20% spirit resistance to all stationed units. Or perhaps volunteer to stationed units?

    #224349

    NINJEW
    Member

    Eh I suppose. A lot of people in MP don’t even build storehouses since long term investments are usually not necessarily worth it. Factoring in all costs, it would take 25 turns to break even on gold. I would definitely make it a priority, but I don’t feel that it would outclass other structures vying for my attention.

    i think not building storehouses has a lot to do with how not only do you get no immediate benefit, but also the benefit you get is somewhat vague and relatively minor. city size ups are significant, but a storehouse isn’t a city size up, it’s getting city level upgraded somewhat faster than normal, which may or may not ever be worth it, compared to the upfront gold cost that you already know for sure would be valuable in other places too.

    happiness buildings get it a bit better, since you can see what the immediate short term value is, and it’s a fairly concrete value too. the problem is that you have to go through the storehouse first, and one happiness building won’t necessarily get you any benefit immediately for that investment. i use them if i need some more production and it’ll push me up a happiness threshold.

    throw on +gold though and between that concrete value + the already arguably worthwhile happiness and population boosts, and you bet i’ll be going after that every time.

    #224350

    NINJEW
    Member

    grand temple i think is ok. if you really need more mana and are willing to throw more gold at it, grand temple has your back. it’s in a good place where it’s not a must have building by any means, but a good option to take if you find yourself in need of mana and few cities to build shrines/temples in. something you consider as the game situation changes than a building you really work into a build order or plan on having.

    #224353

    ExNihil
    Member

    Perhaps Grand Temple could give 50% mana bonus instead of +10 mana? This will automatically translate to at least +10 mana and often more, which will be a substantial and worth while boost, and will make it a good building. As it stands now it’s not worth 200 production units IMO.

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