Assorted Topics Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Assorted Topics Balance Discussion

This topic contains 14 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  Ravenholme 7 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #118793

    ExNihil
    Member

    Hi guys,

    This will be my last balancing discussion thread (I think) before the patch comes out. I want it to be concerned with all the stuff that doesn’t fall into the other threads.

    ——

    Ok, I’ll start with something I feel is very important – t3 Elementals. ATM these units appear too late in the mastery spells to become useful in MP games, and I must say I have never seen them used at all with the exception of once summoning an elemental myself – after having 2 stacks of horrors.

    The problem is that ATM the price of the “Summon x Elemental” tech is 1200RP, which is the price of a Produce Manticore-Rider, and if we factor in the entire branch of techs necessary to reach this tech, the cost is actually substantially bigger than teching to t4 units in almost all circumstances (allowing for randomness). This makes Elementals completely redundant in MP games, as a player who tries to obtain these units will have no class units in the meantime, and by the time he unlocks these he will be confronted with class t4 units, which are simply superior.

    I therefore think its really necessary to move the “Summon x Elemental” techs in their respective tech branches from tier 6 to tier 5 techs, reducing their price from 1200 to about 750RP (+-50RP). Doing this will allow non-summoning classes to try and obtain t3 elementals, to better use their mana and dual-channel production in the later stages of the game. Yet it will also ensure that if a player chooses to go this route before teching to t4, which is during the mid-game, he would have to commit his game to it, and he will definitely not overpower summoners, who both have better research and access to equivalent powered units for equal or less research.

    I’d be glad for some input, discussion and/or support!

    Race Threads:

    ORC Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/orc-balance-discussion/

    GOBLIN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/goblin-balance-discussion/

    HUMAN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/human-balance-discussion/

    HIGH-ELF Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/high-elf-balance-discussion/

    DRACONIAN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/draconian-balance-discussion/

    DWARF Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dwarf-balance-discussion/

    Class Threads:

    ROGUE Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rogue-balance-discussion/

    SORCERER Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/sorcerer-balance-discussion/

    THEOCRAT Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/theocrat-balance-discussion/

    DREADNOUGHT Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dreadnought-balance-discussion/

    ARCHDRUID Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/archdruid-balance-discussion/

    WARLORD Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/warlord-balance-discussion/

    Topical Threads:

    Random Map Generator, Underground and Map Elements Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rmg-ug-and-map-elements-balance-discussion/

    Blight, Spirit, Machines and Theocrat: Some Community Questions: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/blight-spirit-machines-and-theo-some-community-questions/

    Dwellings, Taverns and Bandits!: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dwellings-taverns-and-bandits/

    AI and Auto-Combat Balance Discussion (SP and MP): http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/auto-combat-balance-discussion/

    Support Units Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/support-units-balance-discussion/

    Leader/Heroes Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/leaderheroes-balance-discussion/

    Heal and Sustain Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/the-heal-or-sustain-issue/

    Assorted Topics Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/asorted-topics-balance-discussion/

    Misc. Threads:
    Ballista!: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/ballista/ (<– This is a unit suggestion rather than a balance discussion)

    And of course the original monster:

    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rebalance-of-existing-elements-in-next-patch/

    #118798

    Gloweye
    Member

    I agree on the issues with elementals – they are kinda useless right now. However, we’ve heard of lesser elementals in the patch, which I hope will lessen this issue a bit – you get an additional summon, so you wont be left with empty hands/zephyr birds in the meantime.

    Overall, I find the Specializations having very little impact on the game overall, maybe because I’m comparing them to the sphere’s of magic in earlier games, the importance of which has shifted to the classes. I’d love for all of them to be greatly expanded in options and usefullness.

    #118838

    syntax_vi
    Member

    Just be careful what you wish for. Elementals are like tier 3.5 and most hard counter a lot of the sorcerers tricks (being shock immune and float). In long sp games they are game changers even as is. Earth and water are the best t3 units in game IMO . Better than first born. Fire is also very good, and air feels the weakest but can still be better than most other t3.

    I like that they are powerful game changers, but I fear an earlier entrance would also inevitably lead to nerfs.

    Ps Ex I know English isn’t your first language, and I notice you use the word expansive (large or wide ranging) when I think you mean to use the word expensive (cost a lot/more)?

    #118859

    ExNihil
    Member

    Just be careful what you wish for. Elementals are like tier 3.5 and most hard counter a lot of the sorcerers tricks (being shock immune and float). In long sp games they are game changers even as is. Earth and water are the best t3 units in game IMO . Better than first born. Fire is also very good, and air feels the weakest but can still be better than most other t3.

    As I said, changing the research costs will *only* change the fact that currently nobody bothers using them. In effect these units would still appear roughtly at the same time as Horrors – if the sorcerer’s player is competent.

    I like that they are powerful game changers, but I fear an earlier entrance would also inevitably lead to nerfs.

    I have seen them used once in MP in over 800hrs. I have asked around, I am really not the only one who has hardly seen them – they are simply not used as is.

    Ps Ex I know English isn’t your first language, and I notice you use the word expansive (large or wide ranging) when I think you mean to use the word expensive (cost a lot/more)?

    It is indeed not my mother tongue, but I do know the difference between these two words :). Thanks though – I write stuff unconsciously – I’m sure you can comprehend my meaning even with small typos and letter exchanges.

    #118871

    ExNihil
    Member

    Do you want to post here about production spillover @gloweye? this is the thread for this in my book :).

    #118873

    Assume they come in earlier, you still need to commit to a Mastery, which has so many opportunity costs, and Elementals, whilst good, are fairly situational, that I don’t feel there would be much need to nerf them.

    This is one of Ex’s better ideas.

    #118887

    Gloweye
    Member

    Do you want to post here about production spillover @gloweye? this is the thread for this in my book :) .

    Well, can’t stay back now can I?

    The following comes from my thread planning to overhaul units into functional squads. this would make T1’s much weaker/cheaper, and as such, production overflow would be more important. However, the production overflow wouldn’t work different.

    Two Methods of achieving this:

    1) Construction overflow
    Construction not needed to create the current construction is spend on the next in queue, up to the point where you can use it to instantly create units if you have sufficient overflow from last turn. This enables a high-productive city to build half a squadron of basic (units) a turn, or both a riders hall and an arena. When producing Merchandise(or the like), there might need to be a way that would enable you to toss large amounts of construction to gold, instead of 50% bonus per turn, regardless of production capabilities. That never felt right anyway. For example, 1 gold for every 2 production points. Might need some tweaking, but generally speaking.

    NOTE: This could also be used for a CP generate effect someone at Arch-Druid Balance suggested

    2) Combined Production
    Allow simultaneous production of units of the same type.
    If one infantry costs 40 gold, two cost 80 gold. And since my city got 60 production, Im building 3 infantry together, so after 2 turns, I get 3 infantry at the same time. (Getting nothing after turn 1)

    I like solution 1 more, but I can see 2 is easier to implement, and it would not require revising producing merchandise and it’s pals.

    #118960

    Garresh
    Member

    Just be careful what you wish for. Elementals are like tier 3.5 and most hard counter a lot of the sorcerers tricks (being shock immune and float). In long sp games they are game changers even as is. Earth and water are the best t3 units in game IMO . Better than first born. Fire is also very good, and air feels the weakest but can still be better than most other t3.

    I like that they are powerful game changers, but I fear an earlier entrance would also inevitably lead to nerfs.

    Ps Ex I know English isn’t your first language, and I notice you use the word expansive (large or wide ranging) when I think you mean to use the word expensive (cost a lot/more)?

    For what it’s worth, I’ve literally never summoned an elemental in a MP game. Actually, I think I dropped a Fire Elemental once and then went back to spamming crows.

    #118961

    syntax_vi
    Member

    alright, if you guys seem to think that you won’t call for nerfs, then I drop my objection to making them come earlier.

    In SP / Very Slow / Very Large Maps, one of the Elemental Mastery is pretty much required, as playing without leaves you at a serious disadvantage, largely because of those elementals.

    I’m still not sure how the sorcerers will deal with this, but I guess we will cross that bridge when we come to it.

    #118970

    Gloweye
    Member

    How sorcerers will deal with it? I guess another Eldritch Horror.

    #119114

    syntax_vi
    Member

    Gloweye, i’m not in game at the moment but from memory all elementals have 100% shock protection (so no shock breath), 100% bight protection, reducing another channel of the horror’s damage. I’m not sure but I do think they all (?) still take spirit damage.

    In any case all elemental’s are great counters for many of the sorcerer’s summons. Horrors really are not very effective agaisnt them at all.

    The only real weakness they have is that they still can be feared.

    #119128

    ExNihil
    Member

    These are powerful units no doubt, but they are still t3 units regarding they def/res/hp and are vulnerable to physical damage first and foremost. They are vulnerable to the Sorcerer’s nuke Magic Fist, as well as to Banish and the Sorcerer’s unique mind control spell – Arcane Binding. Depending on the elemental at hand they are also vulnerable to some elemental damage types, although this is really their strongest suit.

    Finally, the Sorcerer can tech faster then almost all other class (Archdruid might be faster, depending on map circumstances and the randomness of the research trees). Therefore, it could also tech Elementals substantially faster than the competition, if the player so chooses.

    I would like though to point your attention in another direction – how will such a change potentially benefit classes that have no dual channel production, i.e. all classes but the summoner classes, who will therefore have a chance of competing with the summoner classes in some situations. Not all classes will benefit from this in the same way, the Dreadnought for instance would still be much better off teching his own stuff up. But the Rogue and WL would benefit tremendously, and this will enrich their gameplay as well.

    Finally – this is called the Assorted Topic Balance Discussion, because I wanted it to be about whatever topics didn’t fit in the other Threads. So if anybody got something to discuss – go ahead and bring it here!

    #119135

    Gloweye
    Member

    They all have Shock + Blight immune. And still they won’t win against an Horror. (Horror’s got fearsome after all, and the only resistance against that is 100% Spirit Protection.)

    Shock breath might not kill them, but that doesn’t mean they’ve got a chance. And unless you’re stacking them(Most likely takes to long+evident weaknesses, as their elemental is so much higher than the physical part, Fire Elemental for example: 6 Phys 15 Fire), the Horror can just Shock Breath the rest of your troops and Dominate one of them.

    #119136

    syntax_vi
    Member

    I hear what you are saying, and perhaps in multi you won’t have trouble dealing with them. I play regularly very large / very slow against teams of emporer AI’s (2-3 to a team). Sorcerer frightens me on these settings precisely until I have elementals, after that I can easily blunt most of their offensive power with elementals (especially earth and water). Arcane binding rarely seems to work, nor does dominate.

    In any case, i dropped my objection as no one is calling for nerfs. I guess we will see how it unfolds, but I think many players forget just how reliant on shock damage the sorcerer really is (very high ratio of units do half or more shock damage). Elementals certainly change the dynamic in SP in one swoop, we will see how it plays out in MP – even though I doubt I’ll ever play MP unless i can find people who like the same settings I do 😀

    @Ex I know what you mean about teching and sorcers also getting his/her own elementals out but my point is is that they don’t hard counter any other class quite as bad. Although druids might actually be pretty close as poison and shock are quite common on the upper tier units. Still entangle helps against them (even if you don’t lock them down you drain MP) where as sorc stuns simply don’t work unless other debuffs are active.

    In my type of game settings Sorcerer’s and Druids are probably the weakest classes. Warlords and Dreads are the strongest, with Theo and Rogue’s situationally in the middle. Elementals coming out sooner just makes them even weaker in the long SP game as elementals hurt Sorcerer’s and Druids the most when other classes have access to them.

    #119601

    Ravenholme
    Member

    Assume they come in earlier, you still need to commit to a Mastery, which has so many opportunity costs, and Elementals, whilst good, are fairly situational, that I don’t feel there would be much need to nerf them.

    This is one of Ex’s better ideas.

    Yeah, I’m going to +1 this idea too, I think it is a very good one. I am hoping that the lesser Elementals from GR will be summonable too, because I think that would go some distance to making Elemental Spheres more useful, and to allowing some deadlocks to have theoretical ways to break out (Thinking of how Theocrats get wrecked against Dreadnoughts because of spirit immunity – easier access to other elemental damage channels could really benefit that)

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