Attacking after Retreating

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Attacking after Retreating

This topic contains 70 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by  NINJEW 6 years, 9 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 31 through 60 (of 71 total)
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  • #219614

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    All boils down to it being a dick move if you think it is…

    And it not if you think not.

    Exactly. Except that usually there are rules (mechanics) against dick moves to avoid those. Take sports. Feigning being fouled in sports in order to provoke a penalty is clearly a dick move, because it involves acting and lying to the referees. Consequentially you can get a penalty if you are caught in the act and even in hindsight with the benefit of watching things on TV.

    If there is universal agreement about something being a dick move, then the mechanics should be changed accordingly.

    #219633

    Zepheyr
    Member

    It’s a “dick move” and anyone suggesting otherwise I feel is attempting to justify what most people would consider rude and unsportsmanlike behavior. Hardcore players who take advantage of what are clearly unintended game mechanics help drive unfamiliar newbies away from multiplayer. No one anywhere wants to play with someone who abuses a mechanic to gain an unintentional advantage.

    #219638

    wait there are rules to war since when? you do what you got to win why should it matter how you won?

    #219647

    It’s a “dick move” and anyone suggesting otherwise I feel is attempting to justify what most people would consider rude and unsportsmanlike behavior. Hardcore players who take advantage of what are clearly unintended game mechanics help drive unfamiliar newbies away from multiplayer. No one anywhere wants to play with someone who abuses a mechanic to gain an unintentional advantage.

    How is this unintended mechanics? There’s a whole bloody specialisation built around this.

    From what I gather it was simply good play.

    I’ve done similar stuff before. I’ve been purposely lost fights in the hope of draining CP so I can fight another fight elsewhere without having to worry about CP.

    Seems to me people are whining over the use of that single extra unit, not the concept of draining CP.

    Opponent should have just moved even a single hex. I would have, in any case, just so my opponent didn’t know where I was.

    #219649

    BTW, This isn’t even new. I’ve had it happen to me.

    I was pisssed, but the ‘counter’ is such common sense to me that I wonder how this is blowing up.

    I’d be moving that stack away precisely because CP draining woks an also to remove it from view, possibly to another stack, or maybe keep it just in view to taunt.

    #219659

    Taykor
    Member

    By the way it’s just another way how casters could be screwed. And it’s very rarely accounted for in discussions about power of spells or comparisons with mostly producing classes.

    #219660

    Hiliadan
    Member

    AoW3 is supposed to be a turn by turn game. People plays simultaneous turns in MP because it’s faster. So your suggestion of moving the defenders one hex seems a bit strange to me.

    In a classical turn configuration, it would be possible to do what cbower did and it for me it would be a normal situation. I don’t see why it would be a dick move or not fun. People do not use that tactic now so it seems odd and abnormal but maybe people should use it more?

    For me, it’s totally different than clocksnipping. It’s not an abuse but just a tactic of making your ennemy use their resources then attacking again.

    #219661

    NINJEW
    Member

    If you already have your group – what are you complaining about?

    i’m not complaining, i’m arguing the opposing view point? since no one has any conception of why this would be a dick move.

    So, considering that thousands played and STILL PLAY turn-based games where 1 moves and the other(s) sit around, your point is null and void. playing turn-based IS fun enough, if you play with a strict time-limit. Sure, things take more time, but heck, you are sacrificing most of the fun anyway by playing autocombat.

    actually that archaic ass shit is boring as hell in other games too, so when given the option to just play your game instead of having “playing my video game” comes with the requirement of “have something to do instead of playing my video game” i can’t imagine why you wouldn’t see why going simul turns isn’t desirable (also if you want to go that route i’d say that you’re sacrificing most of the fun of the game by only playing tactical against a stupid AI instead of an intelligent human :v)

    Look, FOR ME, the idea of playing a turn-based strategy game with tactical battlefield that is centered around combat with SimTurns and autocombat is the antithesis of having fun, dick moves or not, so don’t expect any understanding from my side for your idea of fun.

    thanks once again for your input on a live mp situation from your “doesn’t play live mp ever” perspective but ok

    But don’t go and tell others what is a dick move and what not because you play a certain mode only to save time. It’s not about racing through a game – that could be described as “dick move” as well because it amounts to the question who can perform best under time pressure. Keep in mind, I’ve been playing that crap for a long time – automatism more than anything else and actually not that much fun.

    automatism does sound pretty lame, so i’m glad that live MP isn’t actually like that.

    this is amusing since you seem pretty fine with the “commonly accepted” Dick Move of opportunistic stack splitting, which basically everyone who plays mp agrees is stupid bullshit (but no one can agree on a good way to solve edge cases, which is why for the tournament there’s no official rule on it). the concept of “dick moves” is there for even the most hardcore players, from my understanding, since opportunistic stack splitting is always frowned upon, so it’s not like this is some radical new concept that i am proposing.

    All boils down to it being a dick move if you think it is…

    And it not if you think not.

    Personally, I’d just move my stack if the attacker retreated.

    That’s click army and click destination. Attacker has to bring in extra units and reinitiate.

    Cbower used raise militia well here.

    IMHO, not a dick move.

    fair enough.

    #219662

    NINJEW
    Member

    Exactly. Except that usually there are rules (mechanics) against dick moves to avoid those. Take sports. Feigning being fouled in sports in order to provoke a penalty is clearly a dick move, because it involves acting and lying to the referees. Consequentially you can get a penalty if you are caught in the act and even in hindsight with the benefit of watching things on TV.

    If there is universal agreement about something being a dick move, then the mechanics should be changed accordingly.

    the entire way that simulturns functions kind of makes changing things like opportunistic stack splitting and clock sniping really, really hard. it seems like it’d require a lot of code rewriting. which is the main reason why it hasn’t been chanced i’m pretty sure

    wait there are rules to war since when? you do what you got to win why should it matter how you won?

    this is true if you’re an asshole who plays video games with other people to win and doesn’t play video games to have fun

    In a classical turn configuration, it would be possible to do what cbower did and it for me it would be a normal situation. I don’t see why it would be a dick move or not fun. People do not use that tactic now so it seems odd and abnormal but maybe people should use it more?

    For me, it’s totally different than clocksnipping. It’s not an abuse but just a tactic of making your ennemy use their resources then attacking again.

    if someone steps into a shrine to get, say, regrowth, and the other player attacks them with a single irregular, thus negating the shrine buff before a major battle, do you feel like that’s not a dick move?

    #219666

    iceassassin77 wrote:

    wait there are rules to war since when? you do what you got to win why should it matter how you won?

    this is true if you’re an asshole who plays video games with other people to win and doesn’t play video games to have fun

    i can’t fun have out thinking my enemy and crushing them from all angles when they are unprepared? Fun can different for every person, i play strategy games to out think my opponent. Why not soak up spells with cannon fodder hit other places hard.

    and when i turn on a game i don’t really care that much if my opponent is having fun i care if I’m having fun

    #219671

    NINJEW
    Member

    and when i turn on a game i don’t really care that much if my opponent is having fun i care if I’m having fun

    this is true if you’re an asshole who plays video games with other people to win and doesn’t play video games to have fun

    #219672

    and when i turn on a game i don’t really care that much if my opponent is having fun i care if I’m having fun

    this is true if you’re an asshole who plays video games with other people to win and doesn’t play video games to have fun

    so we should all play to lose to make the other person feel good?

    #219673

    NINJEW
    Member

    no, just don’t be a dick about it. the game is fun because both players are trying to win. trying to win shouldn’t come above having fun, however.

    #219674

    NINJEW
    Member

    the idea that you have no concept of “don’t be a huge asshole to the other player” without it also necessitating “throw the game for them” is somewhat alarming

    #219675

    no, just don’t be a dick about it. the game is fun because both players are trying to win. trying to win shouldn’t come above having fun, however.

    so if i want to outsmart them to win I shouldn’t cause the other person might get mad? fuck that I’m going to keeping having fun. It could be a skill level thing why use simple tactics win I know more complex ones?

    #219677

    the idea that you have no concept of “don’t be a huge asshole to the other player” without it also necessitating “throw the game for them” is somewhat alarming

    i do that’s what it means to play with people of your skill level, why should i limit my self so others can have fun?

    #219678

    NINJEW
    Member

    because it’s really fucking lame when someone does shit like opportunistic split stacking to you, so by agreeing to not do it you also make sure that the other person doesn’t pull that shit on you.

    neither side is frustrated and it’s an equal match since the rules apply equally, so you aren’t throwing the match.

    clocksniping is a similar deal, except that by agreeing to not clocksnipe you also make the game go faster because part of clocksniping is that you’re running down the clock needlessly, so it’s just more enjoyable for both sides

    “don’t be a dick” kind of assumes that the other person also isn’t being a dick to you. you’re both playing under the same limitations, so you don’t have to let the other guy win or not try your hardest, you just have to be aware that some moves that “try your hardest” leads to are dick moves and that neither side should be pulling that shit.

    #219682

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    If you already have your group – what are you complaining about?

    i’m not complaining, i’m arguing the opposing view point? since no one has any conception of why this would be a dick move.

    So, considering that thousands played and STILL PLAY turn-based games where 1 moves and the other(s) sit around, your point is null and void. playing turn-based IS fun enough, if you play with a strict time-limit. Sure, things take more time, but heck, you are sacrificing most of the fun anyway by playing autocombat.

    actually that archaic ass shit is boring as hell in other games too, so when given the option to just play your game instead of having “playing my video game” comes with the requirement of “have something to do instead of playing my video game” i can’t imagine why you wouldn’t see why going simul turns isn’t desirable (also if you want to go that route i’d say that you’re sacrificing most of the fun of the game by only playing tactical against a stupid AI instead of an intelligent human :v

    Look, FOR ME, the idea of playing a turn-based strategy game with tactical battlefield that is centered around combat with SimTurns and autocombat is the antithesis of having fun, dick moves or not, so don’t expect any understanding from my side for your idea of fun. )

    thanks once again for your input on a live mp situation from your “doesn’t play live mp ever” perspective but ok

    Little do you know. AoW 3 is a game I would start Live MP again for – just not Sim Turns and Auto, but in “archaic ass shit” way, turn by turn and manual combat – who cares how long it takes, if it`s fun.

    But don’t go and tell others what is a dick move and what not because you play a certain mode only to save time. It’s not about racing through a game – that could be described as “dick move” as well because it amounts to the question who can perform best under time pressure. Keep in mind, I’ve been playing that crap for a long time – automatism more than anything else and actually not that much fun.

    automatism does sound pretty lame, so i’m glad that live MP isn’t actually like that.

    this is amusing since you seem pretty fine with the “commonly accepted” Dick Move of opportunistic stack splitting, which basically everyone who plays mp agrees is stupid bullshit (but no one can agree on a good way to solve edge cases, which is why for the tournament there’s no official rule on it). the concept of “dick moves” is there for even the most hardcore players, from my understanding, since opportunistic stack splitting is always frowned upon, so it’s not like this is some radical new concept that i am proposing.

    In my opinion, all special rules are bullshit insofar, that all players in a game have to accept them, and if they don’t, you can opt to not play against them, period. Doesn’t matter how you call things, but it makes no sense to start belittling players who are of different opinions. See below.

    Exactly. Except that usually there are rules (mechanics) against dick moves to avoid those. Take sports. Feigning being fouled in sports in order to provoke a penalty is clearly a dick move, because it involves acting and lying to the referees. Consequentially you can get a penalty if you are caught in the act and even in hindsight with the benefit of watching things on TV.

    If there is universal agreement about something being a dick move, then the mechanics should be changed accordingly.

    the entire way that simulturns functions kind of makes changing things like opportunistic stack splitting and clock sniping really, really hard. it seems like it’d require a lot of code rewriting. which is the main reason why it hasn’t been chanced i’m pretty sure.

    I understand that you inore things you have no ready answer for, but let me repeat that HoMM V had SimTurns as well – except the game would switch to turn-based if human players had “contact”.
    Admittedly, people OF COURSE complained, it would be a giveaway – but, hey, you have to make compromises and the worst one is, expecting people you don’t know at all to behave like you would like them to. See below.

    if someone steps into a shrine to get, say, regrowth, and the other player attacks them with a single irregular, thus negating the shrine buff before a major battle, do you feel like that’s not a dick move?

    No it’s not a dick move, it’s basic and fundamental tactics. It would in fact be a severe oversight not to (in the aforementioned HoMM it was standard to remove all momentary buffs by a phony attack; since only Heroes could do that, you’d always have one with you for that purpose only.)
    I mean – what about Hellfire? (Armageddon in aforementioned game)? You walth into a siege battle with a Fire Elemental or two (couple of creatures, actually, in the other game) and cast Hellfire. Double the cost, sure. But at that stage … Twice. Then you move in. Dick move?
    Same with big force comes marching. Attack with Fire Elemental cast Armgeddon twice. Go
    in and kill the rest.
    Dick move?
    In the aforementioned game there was a discussion about Kamikaze attacks, and there were some spells allowing to do massive damage that way. The thing is, you can more or less counter everything, just not every time.
    In HoMM it was a matter of who’d have best initiative or maybe an artifact (of which there were some), so that those tactics were never without risk.

    So I actually don’t see a reason for debate. You like to play with special rules – look for people who share them. Case closed. And let the sharks play amongst each other.

    #219686

    NINJEW

    Member

    because it’s really fucking lame when someone does shit like opportunistic split stacking to you, so by agreeing to not do it you also make sure that the other person doesn’t pull that shit on you.

    neither side is frustrated and it’s an equal match since the rules apply equally, so you aren’t throwing the match.

    clocksniping is a similar deal, except that by agreeing to not clocksnipe you also make the game go faster because part of clocksniping is that you’re running down the clock needlessly, so it’s just more enjoyable for both sides

    “don’t be a dick” kind of assumes that the other person also isn’t being a dick to you. you’re both playing under the same limitations, so you don’t have to let the other guy win or not try your hardest, you just have to be aware that some moves that “try your hardest” leads to are dick moves and that neither side should be pulling that shit.

    strategy isn’t fair? that’s the whole point. If your looking for a game that’s fair I think the 4X gene is wrong place to look, it exploit as one of the X’s. You don’t have to play against those people just quit and play against the AI they wont hurt your feelings…. or will they? Dun Dun Dunnnn!

    #219691

    NINJEW
    Member

    Little do you know. AoW 3 is a game I would start Live MP again for – just not Sim Turns and Auto, but in “archaic ass shit” way, turn by turn and manual combat – who cares how long it takes, if it`s fun.

    i don’t know about you but i do so very much enjoy “doing things other than play my fun video game” when i play my fun video game

    plus not everyone has like 6 hours to blow all in one game. 3 hours is a good amount of time to play a game and under simul will get you pretty far into the game, and it’d take 6 hours to get that far in classic. 3 hours and have a decent few pvp fights towards the end is way more appealing than 3 hours with no pvp and maybe we’ll pick it up later.

    In my opinion, all special rules are bullshit insofar, that all players in a game have to accept them, and if they don’t, you can opt to not play against them, period. Doesn’t matter how you call things, but it makes no sense to start belittling players who are of different opinions. See below.

    if you honestly can look at opportunistic split stacking (something that even “the sharks” agree is stupid and bullshit) and say that you have no problem with that then i don’t think there’s much reason to continue this discussion, there’s just plain no common ground then.

    the answer to the rest of your post is “would still take forever and people do that by saving and quitting and rehosting sometimes anyway” and “that example was intentionally more of an edge case than a hard example” by the way

    strategy isn’t fair? that’s the whole point. If your looking for a game that’s fair I think the 4X gene is wrong place to look, it exploit as one of the X’s. You don’t have to play against those people just quit and play against the AI they wont hurt your feelings…. or will they? Dun Dun Dunnnn!

    or i could play with people who aren’t assholes? you know that that is a valid option too right? is that actually a difficult concept?

    #219692

    or i could play with people who aren’t assholes? you know that that is a valid option too right?

    I’m sure the AI wont hurt your feelings but you never know. Quitting is a option when people make smart tactical choices.

    #219694

    NINJEW
    Member

    i’m glad to hear that you don’t understand the concept of not playing games with assholes

    #219698

    i’m glad to hear that you don’t understand the concept of not playing games with assholes

    i’m also fond you believing we should all play they way you want, but AI will always be there for you give it a try.

    #219701

    thabob79
    Member

    I might be mistaken but I thought that strategy games were all about getting unfair within the rules. The partisan sphere is based on that. After playing a while, regaining used skills and running from spells are pretty much the only uses I saw of guerilla. Yes this is unfair. Is it counterable? Yes. BBB mentionned a counter. After falling prey once or twice if you expect that strategy, attack first or try to focus your cp elsewhere.

    I see 4x games as a chance to do the best with the card i’ve been dealt with.

    Happy gaming

    #219702

    NINJEW
    Member

    nah the ai sucks dude

    i’m not saying other people need to play my way man. it’s not a demand, it’s an explanation of why someone might not find what the OP described acceptable? the OP didn’t ask “am i allowed to do this?” he asked:

    or does this just kill the fun of the game.

    hence the discussion on etiquette, not on strict “is this the way to win”

    #219711

    hence the discussion on etiquette, not on strict “is this the way to win”

    there is no etiquette in war, use what you can for what ever reason you see fit. If you dislike it that much AI will be there for you.

    #219719

    NINJEW
    Member

    the AI or, you know, people who aren’t assholes about video games

    if you don’t think there is a question to be asked period from the op i’m not sure why you’re continuing this

    #219747

    @ Hilliadan, when the attacker retreats he has no mp left.

    Move your stack even one hex and he can’t pull off this “dick” move.

    That’s why I said the counter is pretty straight forward.

    @ Ninjew, art to shrine buffs, dammed right I’d initiate and retreat. Those buffs are powerful!

    You know, for some people, winning is the fun. Not everyone sees such a distinction between ‘fun’ and “questionable” moves.

    #219749

    That said, there are some moves I have and will quit games over.

    I have that choice.

    This isn’t one of those moves.

    An example of such a move is people who run single Scouts away in tactical to try and run the clock down. That for me is a pretty boring move. With more than 2 players, it really slows the game down for no good reason.

    If I show up with 3 swordsmen and all you have is a Crow, no spells, just surrender.

    I would.

    #219761

    Wallthing
    Member

    That said, there are some moves I have and will quit games over.

    I have that choice.

    This isn’t one of those moves.

    An example of such a move is people who run single Scouts away in tactical to try and run the clock down. That for me is a pretty boring move. With more than 2 players, it really slows the game down for no good reason.

    If I show up with 3 swordsmen and all you have is a Crow, no spells, just surrender.

    I would.

    Sounds like you’re more or less agreeing with what Ninjew’s saying – just not in the OP’s particular example. Both examples being things that some people may not find fun or may think of as too gamey. As someone who doesn’t give a shit because he’ll probably never play this game MP the only difference I can see in the two is that running the clock takes up time.

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