Baby Dragons

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Baby Dragons

This topic contains 34 replies, has 20 voices, and was last updated by  Flamespike 7 years ago.

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  • #165188

    Tetzer
    Member

    So I read about this and commented on the steam forums and was wondering what y’all think of having the baby dragons return and giving them the evolve mechanic to change into adult dragons, but also maybe adding a middle evolution inbetween since evolving units isnt particularly a hard thing to do, and having it harder to acquire them so that you cant just walk around with a stack of fully grown dragons faster than someone who has to build all the buildings in the dwelling before they can actually get their hands on a dragon to keep it balanced? Also I was hoping to find some clarification on the origin of the Draconians. I know they were created through wizard magic (thanks to Gloweye for that), but were they created from the combination of humans and dragons, or was there something else that happened that led them to being created?

    #165196

    Khelle
    Member

    Aren’t wyverns the actual baby dragons already?

    #165197

    Tetzer
    Member

    I believe they are within the same species, but they dont grow into dragons. In Age of Wonders shadow magic there were baby dragons that randomly evolved into adult dragons, and Wyverns were also in that game and yet they didnt evolve into fully fledged dragons. I understand that things change and arent always set in stone for a series, and maybe the wyverns have been changed to represent maybe the younger form of a dragon, but I am curious as to reason why this change happened cause I loved having the baby dragons evolve all the way up to full fledged dragons.

    #165225

    Thariorn
    Member

    I know they were created through wizard magic (thanks to Gloweye for that), but were they created from the combination of humans and dragons, or was there something else that happened that led them to being created?

    Because the humanoid races (mainly humans) hunted the Dragons, their numbers dwindled rapidly. To ‘compensate’, the Dragons tasked (read as payed) WIzards to create something to fight against the Humanoids and to guard their homes. Thay gave those wizards some Eggs and *plop* Draconians were created.
    At least that’s the short version ~

    Hmm, having T1 baby Dragons could be nice.
    Also, if they evolve into a random Dragon upon the second Evolve, you could finally accquire Obsdian Dragons.

    Theorectially, Baby Dragons could evolve into Wyverns which then evolve into Dragons, but I think that would unbalance the Dragon Lair, as getting Wyverns to Gold is quite easy AND Sorcerers have quite the easy time getting Wyverns through their spells.

    #165227

    Gloweye
    Member

    Theorectially, Baby Dragons could evolve into Wyverns which then evolve into Dragons, but I think that would unbalance the Dragon Lair, as getting Wyverns to Gold is quite easy AND Sorcerers have quite the easy time getting Wyverns through their spells.

    Hence in the Steam thread I proposed to put the intermediate stage between the Wyvern and the full dragon.

    Wouldn’t it be possible for the summoning spells from the Sorc and AD to summon Wyverns that wouldn’t have Evolve? (Or to put Evolve at a Dwelling variant of Racial Governance…)

    #165243

    Thariorn
    Member

    Wouldn’t it be possible for the summoning spells from the Sorc and AD to summon Wyverns that wouldn’t have Evolve? (Or to put Evolve at a Dwelling variant of Racial Governance…)

    Surely would be possible, but I got the feeling that confusing systems like this (Wyversn witha ndw ithout Evolve, seemingly identically but not) aren’t that well recieved by some parties.
    *wink,wink*

    #165253

    Ravenholme
    Member

    Well, wyverns aren’t actually the same species as dragons, so you would have to create a baby and intermediate stage for each dragon type, as with the serpents. I would be completely okay with that

    #165281

    I have to agree with lord Ravenholme here,

    if we check the mythology an wyvern is an snake that grew 2 legs and 2 wings (sometime 4 or even 8 wings).

    an European dragon is an 4 legged lizard (the looks of the dragon is based on dinosaur bones that where found in medieval times). (lets not talk about the Chinese dragon)

    if you really want an evolve path you can do something like baby dragon> young dragon> dragon.

    for wyverns you can do (gold/red/ice)snake > (gold/red/ice)wyvern

    #165286

    Joni
    Member

    Completely on board re the possibility of evolving dragons. A few thoughts:

    – make dragon eggs an acquirable item found in dungeons which would hatch into a baby dragon after X turns (to keep dragons quite rare and special and out of the early game and to add a new unique mechanic similar to the mount eggs)
    – baby dragons could be slightly modified/recolored draconian hatchlings (to save some development time)
    – young dragons should probably be tier 2 (I personally consider the power jump from the tier 1 to tier 3 snakes too big)
    – possibly add another evolving stage at tier 3, just labelled “Fire/Frost/Gold/Obsidian Dragon”, and rename the current tier 4 into “Elder Dragons” to add some more fine tuning and sense of achievement if you manage to fully grow one from egg to this stage.

    Admittedly quite a bit of work, but I would love to see something along these lines implemented. As an added benefit, this would also work to alleviate a popular concern regarding the fact that currently tier 4 dwelling units are too easy to obtain if you only allow for the tier 3 versions to be produced at Dragon Lairs.

    #165287

    ESCL
    Member

    Well, although I would like having an evolve mechanism from Wyverns to Dragons (preferably with a middle step using Young Dragons or something similar) it wouldn’t really fit with the new story for AoW3. According to the this old dev journal, wyverns are dragons born after the Age of Giants which means that no new ancient dragons have been born since then. That differs quite at lot from the lore of AoW2/SM where you could have baby dragons so maybe it could change back again.

    http://ageofwonders.com/dev-journal-about-dragons/

    #165311

    Jaduggar
    Member

    Hi, its me.

    Hence in the Steam thread I proposed to put the intermediate stage between the Wyvern and the full dragon.

    Yeah, do this ^

    …bye.

    #165333

    haloloki
    Member

    Well, although I would like having an evolve mechanism from Wyverns to Dragons (preferably with a middle step using Young Dragons or something similar) it wouldn’t really fit with the new story for AoW3. According to the this old dev journal, wyverns are dragons born after the Age of Giants which means that no new ancient dragons have been born since then. That differs quite at lot from the lore of AoW2/SM where you could have baby dragons so maybe it could change back again.

    http://ageofwonders.com/dev-journal-about-dragons/

    So…. there were obsidian dragons in the game as well. were they taken out early on or just getting redone eventually also what type of attack/breathe did they use? blight?

    #165337

    Gloweye
    Member

    http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Obsidian_Dragon

    They exist, but cannot be obtained in the current game. They are placed in some scenario’s, like for example in level 1 of the Golden Realms, to the east of your starting position.

    #165564

    Tetzer
    Member

    I love all the ideas, and I honestly dont care either way if they make wyverns the second evo, or just make young dragons be the middle evolution. I just want my different elemental variants of baby dragons eating and growing into full fledged adult dragons and spreading chaos across the lands.

    #165600

    This touches the highest of fantasy issues (if you disagree, you are wrong, do not pass go, and proceed directly to a turkish south american prison), so any solution must be well thought out.

    You can’t just give the intermediate stage to all wyverns, as some classes can summon them, and you don’t want Archdruids running around with dragons (even though that would be supper fun).

    Essentially the only way I can think is to make Wyverns built in the Dragon Dwelling with the Orb of the First Age (with a concomitant price increase) get an evolve at gold ability into Lesser Dragons. Lesser Dragons would, on Gold, become full dragons. Lesser Dragons could have smaller forms of their breath ability (like the various blasts, or weaken as opposed to the spirit/frost/fire/weakening/blight breath), possibly even keeping them as an alternative fire (as a reward for nursing them up to gold).

    You could also occasionally give lesser dragons for the morality quests (so 1 instead of two wyverns), and have them be given out as quest rewards just under full dragons.

    #165602

    Tetzer
    Member

    Well I figured that if the wyverns were made the second evolve form, that they would tweak and change the way things work for wyverns across the board in the game. I assumed that was a given when proposing new ideas and that ideas shouldnt be taken as they are when they deal with changes that would affect existing units in the game. So when I said I dont care HOW its done, as long as id be able to have baby dragons return, then it means just that. Whatever way Triumph if they do plan to find a way to make it work, that they would also find a way to change the way wyverns work, or just keep them the same and add the Baby Dragon—>Young Dragon—>Adult.

    #165606

    SaintTodd
    Member

    Evolving dragons from babies up to adults was a great mechanism in Ogrebattle 64 (one of my favorite games of all time), so yeah, I’m in favor of this.

    #165628

    Dagoth Ur
    Member

    They exist, but cannot be obtained in the current game.

    Is that… is that a smile?

    This touches the highest of fantasy issues (if you disagree, you are wrong, do not pass go, and proceed directly to a turkish south american prison), so any solution must be well thought out.

    You can’t just give the intermediate stage to all wyverns, as some classes can summon them, and you don’t want Archdruids running around with dragons (even though that would be supper fun).

    Essentially the only way I can think is to make Wyverns built in the Dragon Dwelling with the Orb of the First Age (with a concomitant price increase) get an evolve at gold ability into Lesser Dragons. Lesser Dragons would, on Gold, become full dragons. Lesser Dragons could have smaller forms of their breath ability (like the various blasts, or weaken as opposed to the spirit/frost/fire/weakening/blight breath), possibly even keeping them as an alternative fire (as a reward for nursing them up to gold).

    If they’d implement it, this would be the way.

    But I kind of hope evolving into Dragons won’t be implemented. Evolving is fun but it’s on the borderline of not being fun if a lot of units / strong units get it.

    #165656

    Gloweye
    Member

    Gloweye wrote:
    They exist, but cannot be obtained in the current game.
    Is that… is that a smile?

    My crusade is unsuccessful so far. If mod tools were to be released, it’s the first change I’d make. Maybe I can do something if I devote some more posts, but don’t count on it.

    #165781

    Erathil
    Member

    Honestly, this is something that’s bugged me.

    Shadow magic let you recruit dragon hatchlings as weak, vulnerable tier 2 units, but if you could level them up through combat you’d get a full dragon, albeit of a random and possibly incompatible type.

    But then the lore changed. Now, there hasn’t been a true dragon born in thousands of years, since the time when giants and dragons warred and shaped the world.

    This seems like an utterly baffling and unnecessary retcon to me. It adds nothing to the game, and weirdly invalidates a cool mechanic from Shadow Magic.

    #165792

    Thariorn
    Member

    recruit dragon hatchlings

    But then the lore changed. Now, there hasn’t been a true dragon born in thousands of years, since the time when giants and dragons warred and shaped the world

    I don’t know the Unit-Lore of the Dragon hatchling in 2/SM, but you could not produce them, just recruit them.
    Who’s to say the Baby Dragons in SM weren’t 11000 Years old already? (And yet still ‘mere’ babies).

    #165805

    Erathil
    Member

    Well… you ‘recruit’ them from Dragon Nests. Which were giant rocky spires with clutches of visible eggs on the top.

    And the unit lore implied that they were really young. Specifically, that recently hatched dragons didn’t have the distinguishing features of the adults, so you wouldn’t know if you were raising an evil black dragon or a good fairy dragon until you reached gold medal.

    #165831

    Hatmage
    Member

    If we are discussing mythology, Mr. Overlord, then stereotyping western dragons as having 4 legs, wings and fiery breath is similar to stereotyping all germans as simultaneously being Hitler and David Hasselhoff. If there were germans like that who lived in russia and had multiple heads*. I may be stretching this metaphor. But distinguishing Wyverns from Dragons from Lindworm from ordinary snakes from at least one legend seeming to describe an enormous lamprey** is a recent practice, and doesn’t really add much to settings based on mythologies without this distinction. But when we already have dragons breathing ice ans spirit, and only one actually being venomous, connections to mythology are tenuous at best.

    *Zmey are multiple-headed fire spitting russian dragons with poisonous blood. Don’t you wish more people used them in games?

    **The Lambton Worm. The moral of the story would seem to be Don’t throw gross fish in wells.

    #200325

    Flamespike
    Member

    Watching the new Game of Thrones season got me nostalgic hard for SM’s baby dragons… I really, REALLY hope we will get them back in a future patch/expansion.

    They could have 3 stages of growth before becoming tier 4 dragons (separate from wyverns).

    Rare reward from medium/high magic sites, you start with tier 1 hatchling and growing them all the way to full fledged dragons would be quite a challenge but really rewarding. And you would get rather attached to the beastie after going from:

    This http://tinyurl.com/jvpqg52
    to this http://tinyurl.com/ous5vrt
    and eventually this http://tinyurl.com/k683hvp

    Please devs let us be the mother/father of dragons 🙂

    #200344

    Actually, the distinction between types of dragons derives from heraldry. And the the moral of the story of the lambton worm was do not skip church on Sunday.

    As to infant dragons, I doubt it will be done. What if you exalted cleared a place, got one, and had a free full dragon by turn 30? Normally, you have to pay a lot of money for a dwelling and rush stuff.

    You might be able to have a cosmic event with dragons were killing the main stack got you loot and a baby dragon who would get some nice extra ability.

    In fact, I’ll propose the idea in full form shortly.

    #200355

    Wallthing
    Member

    http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Obsidian_Dragon

    They exist, but cannot be obtained in the current game. They are placed in some scenario’s, like for example in level 1 of the Golden Realms, to the east of your starting position.

    You mean obtained normally? I received an obsidian dragon as a reward for clearing a treasure site. I think it was one of the early sites in the 1st scenario of the EL campaign. Maybe I’ll look through my saved games…

    #200370

    They recently added the obsidian as a secret spell

    #200413

    Gloweye
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Gloweye wrote:</div>
    http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Obsidian_Dragon

    They exist, but cannot be obtained in the current game. They are placed in some scenario’s, like for example in level 1 of the Golden Realms, to the east of your starting position.

    You mean obtained normally? I received an obsidian dragon as a reward for clearing a treasure site. I think it was one of the early sites in the 1st scenario of the EL campaign. Maybe I’ll look through my saved games…

    Depending on the patch you’re playing, it could also be the Ghouling of the Obsidian Dragon that the Rogue has on start. Or the Summon Spell of course.(which was implemented after I wrote the above)

    #200460

    vota dc
    Member

    In the new lore wyverns are sons of Dragons but cannot evolve at all or they wouldn’t use draconians!

    In the first game they don’t seem so related:

    The Green Wyvern is a serpentine creature resembling a dragon in form, though not in wits. A bit dimwitted and rejected by other dragonkind as something quite a bit less, these creatures suffer from bouts of inferiority, making them quite nasty to all creatures inferior to them.

    #200490

    Gloweye
    Member

    In the new lore wyverns are sons of Dragons but cannot evolve at all or they wouldn’t use draconians!

    In the first game they don’t seem so related:

    The Green Wyvern is a serpentine creature resembling a dragon in form, though not in wits. A bit dimwitted and rejected by other dragonkind as something quite a bit less, these creatures suffer from bouts of inferiority, making them quite nasty to all creatures inferior to them.

    They seem to me…

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