Balance based on hard data from the PBEM tournament (continued)

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Balance based on hard data from the PBEM tournament (continued)

This topic contains 246 replies, has 27 voices, and was last updated by  StephenDat 2 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #244577

    Hiliadan
    Member

    To save people from reading 6 pages of “wall of text” posts, I open a new thread to continue the discussion on balance (focused on PBEM but if we can fix live MP issues too, it’s better).

    The current duel tournament underway on the Battlefield website provides hard data from 48 (50% more than when the initial post http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/balance-based-on-hard-data-from-the-pbem-tournament/ was opened) matches on the classes and races most used and most successful. You can find the data in 3 tables here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1z28mJy6bHfYKgHgwu8RbwpuldHqaF-CRj6pp0xJ7Kx8/pubhtml?gid=2052154804&single=true
    – first table list the choices of class / race
    – second table list the victories
    – third table is the win ratio (division of the figures in the second table by those in the first table)

    A color code has been applied to facilitate reading: red is a few and green is a lot, yellow is intermediary.

    Dread, Halfling and AD already got changes to balance them in the PBEM balance mod v1.1 and we also agreed on new settings that should boost Dread in following tournaments.
    Necro’s Ghoul Curse and Greater Reanimate Undead, conversions and XP farming have also been dealt with in PBEM balance mod v1.1.

    The full list of agreed and proposed changes can be found here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1flsHncpzAmJa_2xMHZ6Tlp-mf69ej2mYrSGNc4V3_QA/edit?usp=sharing

    Additional feedback on all the changes listed in that table is of course always welcome, to help us drop unwanted changes or promote some in the balance mod.

    Now, I think we can take several directions and I’m not sure which ones are the best:
    A/ make all class / race viable and thus boost combo that were not played in the PBEM tournament and nerf those who were played a lot
    B1/ make all specialisation equally useful and viable
    B2/ make all units equally useful and viable and make racial governance choices meaningful (i.e. you should really hesitate between the eco and military choice and not always choose one because it is better)
    B3/ make all heroes equally useful (currently AD and Theo heroes – and not leaders – are more useful because of healing and other abilities)
    C/ fix the remaining imbalances in abilities / specific units (e.g. Necro’s Energy Drain)

    I believe we should try to achieve all these aims but it will require a lot of energy and I am afraid there is not enough interest in the community for this. This would however greatly improve the game.

    For now, the priority should be C/.

    Here is a list of Priority changes which need more feedback to decide if we include them or not:

    AD07
    Frostling Shaman cost 130 gold and 30 mana (was 140 gold)

    Dr04b [+ please read all the variants: Dr04d to Dr04f]
    Engineers have Lesser Overload: give +20% damage to target machine or Musketeer until end of combat, but has a chance (physical strength: 7) to be stunned for 2 rounds after attacking.

    Ro10
    Rogue heroes and leaders can now choose Scouting: all units in the stack gets +4 MP – cost 10, available at level 13

    Ro12
    Urban Stealth Commander costs 5 (was 6), available at level 7 (was 9)

    Ha06
    Give a lesser version of Mighty Meek (+1 def, +1 dmg by tier level difference) to Halfling T1

    Ha08
    Halfling cities get +75% on “Produce merchandise”

    Ha15
    Halfling Assassins get Pass Wall on Veteran (was on Elite)
    Ha15a
    Halfling Assassins get a new ability Shoot Poisonous Darts, short range, 1 physical damage, 4 poison damage, Inflict Noxious Vulnerability, Inflict Enfeebling Fever, Inflict Exhausting Fatigue, Inflict Severely Poisoned, and costs 10 gold more

    Ha28
    Farmers cost 45 gold (was 50)

    Then a list of new proposed changes to tackle key remaining issues:

    Ne04a
    Inflict Despair causes “Holy Weakness” (non-stackable) and “Despair” (stackable) on the target and is strength 9 (non-stackable). Holy Weakness gives 30% Spirit weakness. Despair gives -200 morale. (was Inflict Despair is strength 10, causes “Despair”: 20% Spirit weakness, -200 morale and stackable)

    Ne09
    Energy Drain has a spirit strength 10 chance of draining 75% of the target’s MP and is non-stackable (was 50% and stackable)

    Or02
    Victory Rush heals 8 HP at the end of combat (was 6)

    Fr01a
    When Ice Queen uses Last Rite Of Winter, it loses 50% of its base HP (was: sacrifice Ice Queen)

    #244582

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Unable to edit, even with link http://aow.triumph.net/forums/reply/244577/edit/ 🙁

    So I add something that I forgot and that AlX reminded us on the Battlefield: there is an issue with evolving animals in PBEM as it is too easy to evolve Spiders and Serpents into T4.
    I would suggest adding an additional evolution step. It’s clearly needed for Spiders and it can be discussed for Serpents. Other options include: nerfing the baby ones (less HP, less defense, less resistance…) or making it harder to get them: nerfing further Befriend animal (but people who gave an opinion were against that) or decreasing the chance to get a spider or a serpent through the summoning spells.

    #244597

    Domino25
    Member

    So I have a few more thoughts on Dreadnought. I may even try to make a mod myself though I suspect the undertaking is bigger than I would expect.

    1) Engineers as a support class rather than Irregular. The mystical city upgrade with resurgence would solve their late game survival issues. It has minor synergy to then get your healing support as it would level your machine healing support. It also works nice if you happen to play with Tibbles tier 3 support unit mod that introduces “Armor of Faith” giving armor or bonus def to support units. which does lead to:

    2) “Armor of faith” Empire Upgrade from Tibbles mod be added to Dreadnought.

    3) with respect to Dr04b I think we should drop the chance for stun all together. We’re talking about +5 damage on a musketeer shot, or +2-3 damage on a golem. Compare that to the other support buffs which although tier 2, can do from +2 to +5 damage plus another very powerful effect like healing & resistance, strong mind, etc.

    4) An alternative to the DR04 series I think worth considering is a lesser force field which would not have a downside/risk like stunning and would help mitigate damage for the dreadnought since it has weak healing. It also has the benefit of not being exclusive to Dreadnought machines and musketeers so you could use it immediately and with racial units.

    4) Musketeers should get +2 ranged damage, +3 ranged damage or some alternating combination per level. Units that fire 3x a turn gain roughly +3 damage every level. They also get 3x the damage boosts from focused and Hero boosts. Musketeers fire every other turn, which cuts the effective damage buff from all levels and boosts in half again. One caveat to this is that High Elf musketeers using the racial governance ranged attack might be overpowered. I believe that attacks 3 times?

    #244599

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Thanks Domino for the proposal. However, I doubt the community will favour some of them (support instead of irregular for engineer, Armour of Faith). We have reached a step for Dread where it is necessary to validate or reject existing proposals before studying new ones I think (same for Halfling for instance).

    3) with respect to Dr04b I think we should drop the chance for stun all together. We’re talking about +5 damage on a musketeer shot, or +2-3 damage on a golem.

    Why don’t you count Cannons, Flame Tank and Juggernaut here?
    On cannons, it’s +6 damage, possibly on several targets.
    +20% is a lot and it combines with other buffs and with flanking. If we drop the stun, there must be another drawback.

    Ok, could you describe more precisely your point 4/? Cooldown? Exact effect? I don’t think it should boost racial units, that breaks the theme of Dread.

    Regarding your second point 4/, well… that’s also true for Cannons, Flame Tank, Draconian Flamer, etc. i.e. all units with one-strike attacks. I agree that they get boosted less but I don’t think we’re going to change that. It’s supposed to be reflected in their cost and also it compensates the fact that their damage output is superior to most units and they can thus contribute to one-shooting or killing important targets quickly.

    Would you have a link to the description of Armor of Faith by Tibbles? (I would not advise to add it in the table as I don’t think it will get support – I for one will be against – but if you insist, I’ll add it :P)

    #244698

    AlXStormrage
    Member

    Unable to edit, even with link http://aow.triumph.net/forums/reply/244577/edit/ :(

    So I add something that I forgot and that AlX reminded us on the Battlefield: there is an issue with evolving animals in PBEM as it is too easy to evolve Spiders and Serpents into T4.
    I would suggest adding an additional evolution step. It’s clearly needed for Spiders and it can be discussed for Serpents. Other options include: nerfing the baby ones (less HP, less defense, less resistance…) or making it harder to get them: nerfing further Befriend animal (but people who gave an opinion were against that) or decreasing the chance to get a spider or a serpent through the summoning spells.

    I’ve reviewed the statistics of the tournament, the choices are clearly in favour of the Theocrat and AD, although the win % is about 50% (the thing is the 100% from dread comes from the early matches – all the late matches use either theo, ad or necro). So the issue is there with these 3 classes(I’ve stated it dozen times before), however people who play these classes want to retain that advantage, therefore I believe team of respected players should be assembled, that could make decisions on whether the suggestion gets accepted or no.

    To the point -> I’ve posted the screenshots on the-battlefield where me and my partner play theo and dreadnought and our opponents – 2 AD. By the turn 25 I am rushed by 6 full stacks +some more scouts with the King Serpents, serpents, spider queens and so on.
    It doesn’t matter if majority of the AD players don’t agree with the nerfing of the BA and the Evolve limiting, there is an issue, and unless dealt with – there will be no true balance.
    BA should be available at least at the same level as Necros convertion, for at least the same amount of points.
    As for the evolution: in my opinion it should happen on the Champion medal, not on the gold, additionally the spiders and baby serpents should have -6 hp and -1 defense/resistance.

    On to the suggestions:
    Please explain the essense of the “Armor of faith”?
    Indeed Musketeers gain the less from the leveling up, but in my opinion it shouldn’t be their ranged damage that should be boosted, but rather HP and melee attack.

    AD07 – didn’t shaman cost the mana as well? I think the reason for them being expensive is due to them shooting the frost arrows – in this sense I believe price should be the same as draconian shamans.

    Dr04b – agreed with Domino25, it’s excessive to add stun, as the supports like WW, FP, DE are giving perma bonuses without drawbacks by sacrificing 1 turn.
    + very much like the idea to make engineers support class.

    Ro10 – in my opinion pretty useless for that amount of upgrade points. Either make it cheaper or remove the proposal.

    Ro12 – reducing level is a good idea, but I think price should stay the same 6 points.

    Ha06 – neutral about this, therefore could be implemented in the testing purposes.

    Ha08 – agree.

    Ha15 – against that, better would be – improved wall climbing.

    Ha15a – agree, but the darts shouldn’t be arking (without penalty)

    Ha28 – neutral about this – implement for testing purposes.

    Ne04a – I think this is overkill – let’s test already confirmed changes first and see if the necro is still so op as it was. (he should be a bit stronger because he nearly don’t get happiness bonuses)

    Ne09 – don’t see such a major issue with the drain energy – it’s useful, but is not op as the strength is 7 (if after the initial testing Necro heroes are still op – can be lessened to 6), so against it.

    Or02 – was under impression orc heal +10 after victories… either way – I believe this should be looked at in the conjunction with the priests – since orc priests don’t have the heal (which is 10-15 for the dwarfes and humans + the same amount divided amongst the stack ), with 1 support in the stack, 1 battle gives +20/+30 additional hp to stack per day. with the 2 battles – 30 to 45 hp.
    In this case, not all orcs have the victory rush, usually only melee units. so it is usually around 4 such units in the stack. with 1 battle it’d be 24, with 2 – 48 additional hp. This pushes orc to be aggressive on clearing, and I don’t see imbalance there, as the orcs can’t heal specific units. If anything I believe it must be enchanced. My verdict is – +6 is not enough, +7 is okay, may even need to boost to 8 as originally suggested.

    Fr01a – agree, but can even be up to 90% of her hp. (this should make player consider the drawbacks of such action)

    #244704

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Thanks a lot AlX!

    therefore I believe team of respected players should be assembled, that could make decisions on whether the suggestion gets accepted or no.

    Well sure. But this strategy has failed repeatedly. We will never get a team of respected players to review the changes. We need to work with only a limited number of players providing feedback. And actually, most of them are respected! 😀

    As for the evolution: in my opinion it should happen on the Champion medal, not on the gold

    That’s a very good idea actually! Not sure if implementable though.
    I add it as AD10.

    the spiders and baby serpents should have -6 hp and -1 defense/resistance

    Add it as AD11.
    I’m against it because they’re already very weak. I favour a new step in their evolution between the baby and the mature.

    AD07 – didn’t shaman cost the mana as well? I think the reason for them being expensive is due to them shooting the frost arrows – in this sense I believe price should be the same as draconian shamans.

    Yes, I modified the description of the change but I didn’t mention mana because it was the same (30 mana). Ok so you’re against then because Draconian Shamans cost +10 mana compared to normal Shaman. Does the change in damage type justify +10 mana or +10 gold? I don’t think so.
    I change AD07 to include Drac’s Shamans to go back to a normal price too.

    Dr04b – agreed with Domino25, it’s excessive to add stun, as the supports like WW, FP, DE are giving perma bonuses without drawbacks by sacrificing 1 turn.
    + very much like the idea to make engineers support class.

    Added the Support idea as Dr04g. I don’t see what it would bring? You would not benefit from Explorer any more and get what? Bonus from some Mythical City Upgrades?
    I put you in favour of Dr04b but with a comment. Giving +5 damage to already powerful machine is not the same as what some Supports do. But we can boost the damage bonus instead of removing the stun maybe?

    Ro10 – in my opinion pretty useless for that amount of upgrade points. Either make it cheaper or remove the proposal.

    Well, I’d be happy to take it at this cost in a match against you and crush you with it! 😀 It’s a very very strong ability. Movement is key in AoW. I don’t think it should be cheap.

    Ne04a – I think this is overkill – let’s test already confirmed changes first and see if the necro is still so op as it was. (he should be a bit stronger because he nearly don’t get happiness bonuses)

    I strongly disagree. Ok Necro is not 1000% OP as it was, but I am sure I can still get very very good results with it as it is now. We can do a test match 1 vs 1 anytime if you want (after the v1.1 is released).
    Same for Ne09. If these 2 abilities are left as is, it is very clear Necro will remain OP in PBEM (at least for players who know how to abuse it).

    Just look again my match against Eskild if you need convincing.

    Or02 – was under impression orc heal +10 after victories

    EDIT: ok I wrote bullshit. It is +10. Then I correct to +12 for Or02.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 9 months ago by  Hiliadan.
    #244707

    AlXStormrage
    Member

    Yes, I modified the description of the change but I didn’t mention mana because it was the same (30 mana). Ok so you’re against then because Draconian Shamans cost +10 mana compared to normal Shaman. Does the change in damage type justify +10 mana or +10 gold? I don’t think so.

    I think it does, as the shaman with dual attack types is benefited greater from

    Added the Support idea as Dr04g. I don’t see what it would bring? You would not benefit from Explorer any more and get what? Bonus from some Mythical City Upgrades?
    I put you in favour of Dr04b but with a comment. Giving +5 damage to already powerful machine is not the same as what some Supports do. But we can boost the damage bonus instead of removing the stun maybe?

    Didn’t quite get your point on the second part.
    I understand the mechanics of the skill as – lesser overload (or call it Field Upgrade) – would boost damage 15%-20% of the unit. Or just some fixed value – like +3.
    And if we look at WW for example – it adds additionally frost and fire damage to any unit
    As for the support class – there are 3 (if I am not mistaken) mystical city upgrades, that allow to boost supports and only 1 that boosts irregulars. Armored engineers can boost from up to 4. (Lost Library, Ziggurat, Forbidden Sanctum, Crystal Tree) + the explorer spec on the dreadnought would be a waste, since it has no more irregulars. (personal opinion)

    AlXStormrage wrote:
    Ro10 – in my opinion pretty useless for that amount of upgrade points. Either make it cheaper or remove the proposal.
    Well, I’d be happy to take it at this cost in a match against you and crush you with it! 😀 It’s a very very strong ability. Movement is key in AoW. I don’t think it should be cheap.

    Please read correct – at the cost of 10 points – it’s not something I’d pay for the +4 MP. at best it provides 1 hex more for the units in the army, BUT you need to account that not all units have the same terrain passing rate, and if there are any that don’t have wetland walking, you won’t have much from it. It can provide small boost, but is not a game changer. To be honest, I am currently against this option.

    I’d be happy to see how the mod will change the overall balance, so we can do a test game after release. Haven’t decided yet if I want to play for rank 😀

    #244709

    gabthegab
    Member

    I am for all this change and for dispel the – 5 hp for gobelin, dispel the don’t like under ground for halflin, korgelé and elf. Hillidian can you make a new post not for speak but with only link for some interresting mod please?

    #244711

    Hiliadan
    Member

    I think it does, as the shaman with dual attack types is benefited greater from

    I don’t play AD so I may be missing something but why do you say dual channels? Frostling and Draconian Shaman have a pure frost and a pure fire attack, no dual channels.

    Giving +5 damage to already powerful machine is not the same as what some Supports do. But we can boost the damage bonus instead of removing the stun maybe?

    I don’t know if that was this part that was unclear. What I meant is that there are very few ways to boost machine’s damages (less than normal units anyway) and that they already do huge damage. Increasing their damage further increase the chance of one-shots or of finishing off units that had been injured.
    So it means Lesser Overload would be quite strong.
    But at the same time, you’re right that Racial support’s boosts are at least as good in terms of additional damage and they’re not linked to any drawback. So we could boost the damage and put +40% instead of +20% for instance. And keep the stun.

    Please read correct – at the cost of 10 points – it’s not something I’d pay for

    Yes I did read that but I believe that it’s good at 10 points. +4 MP for a stack of concealed Assassins or of Shadow Stalkers is pretty good in my opinion. No-one will be able to follow you and you’ll move very fast on the map.

    @gab: link to the mod http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/balance-based-on-hard-data-from-the-pbem-tournament-continued
    v1.1 is under work and should be released this week or next.
    I write that you’re for all the priority changes then! I already noted you were for removing the morale bonus in UG for all races but you’re almost alone, sorry. I note that you’re for reducing the malus to Goblin’s HP (I don’t add: “no malus” because again you would be alone so not useful to add it in the table :D).

    #244713

    Domino25
    Member

    I’m sorry Hiliadan, I’m probably only going to add to your list rather than help refine it. I’m also adding a section in the bottom that is out of scope for what you want to do, but it gives me a chance to throw out some ideas and get feedback. There’s also a chance that someone else might think they fit in the scope of the balance mod.

    Added the Support idea as Dr04g. I don’t see what it would bring? You would not benefit from Explorer any more and get what? Bonus from some Mythical City Upgrades?

    I think Engineer as support for the resurgence mystical city upgrade which is HUGE. It drastically changes the survivability of the Engineers in mid-late game. That fixes the difficulties of having machine repair as well. However, I think it also fits a idea that Engineer would have a support type buff. Besides, who ever heard of getting better at engineering at a mercenary camp rather than a library?

    Would you have a link to the description of Armor of Faith by Tibbles? (I would not advise to add it in the table as I don’t think it will get support – I for one will be against – but if you insist, I’ll add it :P)

    The Armor of faith upgrade comes from Tibbles mod “Extra Support Units”
    Its description which I had previously slightly misread is the following:
    “The Dreadnought has a new skill called Armor Of Faith, which grants all support units Armored (including the +2 defense bonus) if they do not already have it. It also grants all support units +1 resistance.”

    The more I think about it though, the more I think this a symptom of one of the problems with Dreadnought which is that it favors Armored units to the point that you mainly see Human, Dwarf and Orc for it. In my opinion, support is probably the least important unit to adjust that for. Instead of Armor of faith, I think a better change would be to Great Blacksmith or Solid engineering to provide the Armored trait for Infantry, Pikeman, Calvary and maybe Archers who do not already have it. Giving the armored trait might include +1 Defense and would stack with Solid Engineering’s +1 defense. (I think the armored trait alone doesn’t give defense, In my mind the new vulnerability to armor piercing offsets the first +1 def). Great blacksmith & Solid Engineering would no longer repel players from other races.

    Why don’t you count Cannons, Flame Tank and Juggernaut here?
    On cannons, it’s +6 damage, possibly on several targets.
    +20% is a lot and it combines with other buffs and with flanking. If we drop the stun, there must be another drawback.

    A static damage buff might be better but you could still compare +6 damage to the Draconian’s support which gives +5 damage on ranged and melee attacks and other bonuses. A cannon can hit up to 4 targets which is pretty rare, but most Melee and ranged units can swing 3 times a turn. A unit with Tireless could get more in. If we drop stun and make it a static +5 damage would make it weaker than other support buffs but balanced by the fact that engineers have other abilities and are tier 1.

    Regarding your second point 4/, well… that’s also true for Cannons, Flame Tank, Draconian Flamer, etc. i.e. all units with one-strike attacks. I agree that they get boosted less but I don’t think we’re going to change that. It’s supposed to be reflected in their cost and also it compensates the fact that their damage output is superior to most units and they can thus contribute to one-shooting or killing important targets quickly.

    It’s true for single target one shots. AOE attacks would get +1 damage for each target, so they don’t lose out as much as say Crossbows and Musketeers. Then the fact that musketeers have to reload makes it worse. As far as the heavy alpha damage component, check the 1 turn damage on a fully leveled musketeers to say fully leveled human short bows. It takes more armor than you might think for the musketeer to out perform the short bow.

    Indeed Musketeers gain the less from the leveling up, but in my opinion it shouldn’t be their ranged damage that should be boosted, but rather HP and melee attack.

    Yeah, I think musketeers have an identity crisis. Beefier than most archers but weaker in damage. My preference would be to increase ranged damage per level, but you could go the other direction and give them more melee focus, adding +1 strength per level and the base HP of mounted Tier 2 units. If they went in that direction something like the “bayonets” change we talked about earlier would be useful but potentially too much for balance.

    Ok, could you describe more precisely your point 4/? Cooldown? Exact effect? I don’t think it should boost racial units, that breaks the theme of Dread.

    I believe this was in response to what a Lesser Force Field might be. The Dreadnought spell is 80% protection from Fire, Lightning and Cold for 5 turns. I was thinking 40% for 5 turns and once per battle. I would argue that Dreadnought’s theme does include boosts to racial units: Solid engineering, Sidearms, weapon kit, and Suppress Nature all do that. To me it would be more thematic for an engineer to give a unit a gadget that the unit can use rather than a simple buff spell. But if Engineers gave a “Lesser Force Field device” you would have 1 turn for the engineer to give it and a 2nd units turn for the receiving unit to activate it, which would be painful. Unless it was a buff you could activate without losing a turn, like warcry, and maybe only lasted 1 or 2 turns then?

    Now to completely go off the rails. Since I’m admittedly biased and dreadnought crazy, I started making my own mod to play with. I’m putting a few of the changes below with this disclaimer that I acknowledge I’m getting further from balance and more into making a Gary Sue class. However, it might provide ideas so I’ll put it here without the expectation for you to comment or add it to the balance change suggestion sheet.

    Sidearms becomes “Imperial officers” and applies to tier 3 units and heroes (excludes machines, summons, elementals, monsters etc). Imperial officer grants a sidearm (fire pistol) and tier 1 & 2 units in the same party as an Officer get “Quick Learner”. I also changed Dreadnoughts Imperial Authority hero upgrade to include the Imperial Officer property. (I had conversion classes in mind here. Where they can grab extra units and easier tier 3, I thought to make the dreadnoughts basic troops level quicker so with Champion Medals they can compete)

    Flashbang includes Scorching heat (-3 strength debuff) and leaves the unit that threw the Flashbang in guard mode. (I see this as an early game boost for Dreadnought reduce incoming damage since they don’t have heals)

    Bomb Squad hero upgrade to give sabotage to all units in the party in addition to Explosive death.

    I’m leaning towards an empire upgrade(s) that give tier 1 & 2 Infantry, Pikeman and archers more HP. It would also giving Archers Flashbangs, infantry a shovel for a once per battle ability to enter guard mode with Defender perk and pikemen a once per battle “smoke screen” ability that lets them avoid attacks of opportunity.

    The main point/theme is to give dreadnought racials more of a professional army organization feel. They have army structure and their most basic troops are well trained/equipped. I also tried to bias the changes towards benefiting the early Dreadnought game or alternatives to late game units but not furthering the already strong machines.

    EDIT: Huzzah, I correctly figured out how to use quotes.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 9 months ago by  Domino25.
    #244717

    I am confused by Or2. Orcs victory rush heal is 10 HP right now, this was changed a while ago (it was original 6, then buff to 12, then nerf to 10).

    It is already very powerful and makes Orcs a good race in PBEM.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 9 months ago by  Dementophobic.
    #244720

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Ok my bad, second bullshit I wrote noticed by AlX. 😀 But I still think it needs a slight boost. I played Orcs in 2 games in PBEM and a few more to train in solo, and I think their low resistance is not compensated sufficiently by Victory Rush. So I correct Or02 to: from 10 to 12.

    @domino: I’ll answer and update the table later, I let more people answer without having to read too much.

    #244725

    I disagree. Right now it is good enough. Orc also has +5 HP to help compensate for -1 resist.

    With normal armies start you can clear ~2 sites per turn, meaning each unit in the stack can heal +20 HP. That is more than what any support can heal.

    #244732

    Lykus
    Member

    Ok some more input on DN.

    Since we are at the mpment looking for buffs for engiees. How about the could give blunderbuss or whatever it is called to a target unit/only muskeeters as a touch ability. It would make them more like real support units. Both abilities could be once per battle. Personally I don’t think musketeers need this ability since the are already not bad in combat (for archers).

    Alternatively if you want to buff the racial DN units you could give the blunderbuss ability to archers/infantery (probably too strong). This would fit into the theme of more professional soldiers.

    Anyway I am in favor of Dr04a, Dr07 and Dr17.

    @hiliadan: Did you put the mod on steam? DN is my favorite class and these changes sounds like fun.

    #244777

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Yes the mod is here: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=661597466 v1.0 for now. v1.1 will be released soon.

    I don’t reply for now to let more people have the opportunity to reply with less text to read.

    #244793

    Eskild
    Member

    I was asked to give my feedback on this post, so here it is:

    For the directions in which to progress, I think A, B1-3 and C all sound neat, especially B3, which aims at making heroes equally potent in PBEM games. This game might as well get better if all race/class combinations are viable options, but nevertheless, everyone would still have their own favorite and arguments towards why a certain combination is good for them.

    Regarding the priority changes, here´s my thoughts:

    AD07 – fine for me
    Dr04 – I like the variant with a fixed chance of stun, but maybe 35% is a bit high, maintenance could be raised to 5 HP/turn; comment – I don´t have much experience with dread, but like the class.
    Ro10 – no opinion, rogue already has many upgrade options at high level
    Ro12 – fine for me
    Ha06 – fine for me
    Ha08 – agreeing that this might be too strong, so against
    Ha15 – fine for me, but I seldomly play halfling
    Ha28 – fine for me
    Ne04a – sounds good
    Ne09 – fine
    Or02 – can be 10 HP´s as you are currently discussing
    Fr01a – sounds really good

    Also, I´m for increasing upkeep of converted units.

    If you need comments on other issues from the very long list of changes, we could maybe take it through the team chatroom on the battefield.

    Cheers.

    #244809

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Following discussions with Markymark (and indirectly EarL + gladis), I added two new proposals in the table:

    AD12
    Baby Spiders have an intermediary T2 step in their evolution:
    Dread Spider Baby evolves into Mature Spider Baby:
    HP: 48; Def: 10; Res: 10; MP: 32
    Melee Strike: 8 physical, 5 blight
    Abilities: same as Dread Spider Baby, 60% (40%) Blight Protection, Evolve (Dread Spider Queen)
    Hunter Spider Baby evolves into Hunter Spider Baby:
    HP: 43; Def: 10; Res: 10; MP: 32
    Melee Strike: 8 physical, 5 blight
    Abilities: same as Dread Spider Baby, 60% (40%) Blight Protection; Evolve (Hunter Spider Queen)
    Vampire Spider Baby evolves into Vampire Spider Baby:
    HP: 44; Def: 10; Res: 10; MP: 32
    Melee Strike: 8 physical, 5 blight
    Abilities: same as Dread Spider Baby, 60% (40%) Blight Protection; Evolve (Vampire Spider Queen)
    AD13
    Baby Serpents have an intermediary T2 step in their evolution: Adult Serpents

    #244810

    Zaskow
    Member

    Maybe it’s just better to place hidden modifier for decreasing incoming XP?

    #244859

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Only for Spiders and Serpents? Yes, maybe, it’s another solution.

    I do not add the things proposed in the table for now, to let more people react without having to read too much (because if I add the opinions, I need to reply at the same time :P).

    One thought I had during my match against Eskild (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVegwVpl7gLENQGy5fjGryvor43W_GA3j) crossed my mind again: units acquired (ghouled, mind-controlled) during a fight should start with 0 MP and not full MP. Otherwise, you can just convert your way (or ghoul your way like I did in the crucial turn in my game against Eskild https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex0xiHzxgJw&index=5&list=PLVegwVpl7gLENQGy5fjGryvor43W_GA3j ) toward your opponent in 1 turn and significantly increase your strength and beat him – if you have the right sites in your path – and I don’t find this very fair.
    I added this:

    GC12
    Units acquired during a fight (mind-controlled or ghouled) start with 0 MP on the strategic map

    @zaskow: don’t play Solaris too much, we need the latest version of the mod! 😛 I’ve got more than 16 players waiting for it ^_^

    #244860

    Lightform
    Member

    I haven’t had time to read this thread. I just want to say that I’ve just started playing a PBEM duel using Zaskows current PBEM mod as elf AD, and I’ve already noticed that I still get exp for nourishing meal, I can still level my heroes 1 level per turn, and my theo hero still gets convert at lev 7.

    This means I get free units, often T3 after turn 7….. this is still screwed. Non converting heroes can not compete, and all these free units makes a mockery of the rest of the economic logistics of the game.

    #244863

    Lykus
    Member

    I think that GC12 is a really good idea.
    Maybe this could also be used for resurrected units (by necro and true resurrect).

    I am not sure if this can be done without effecting Resurgence. If not this could potentially nerf Theo very much.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 9 months ago by  Lykus.
    #244865

    Zaskow
    Member

    don’t play Solaris too much, we need the latest version of the mod! 😛 I’ve got more than 16 players waiting for it ^_^

    Stellaris. This game called Stellaris… 😀

    #244878

    Hiliadan
    Member

    I haven’t had time to read this thread. I just want to say that I’ve just started playing a PBEM duel using Zaskows current PBEM mod as elf AD, and I’ve already noticed that I still get exp for nourishing meal, I can still level my heroes 1 level per turn, and my theo hero still gets convert at lev 7.

    This means I get free units, often T3 after turn 7….. this is still screwed. Non converting heroes can not compete, and all these free units makes a mockery of the rest of the economic logistics of the game.

    You use this mod: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=661597466 ?
    Ok so it means there are bugs! Thanks for the report. Zaskow, could you please check this with Nourishing Meal?

    (I actually haven’t played with the mod yet, all my previous games used the “general balance mod”, all my new ones will use the v1.1 of the mod)

    #244893

    AlXStormrage
    Member

    AD12
    Baby Spiders have an intermediary T2 step in their evolution:
    Dread Spider Baby evolves into Mature Spider Baby:
    HP: 48; Def: 10; Res: 10; MP: 32
    Melee Strike: 8 physical, 5 blight
    Abilities: same as Dread Spider Baby, 60% (40%) Blight Protection, Evolve (Dread Spider Queen)
    Hunter Spider Baby evolves into Hunter Spider Baby:
    HP: 43; Def: 10; Res: 10; MP: 32
    Melee Strike: 8 physical, 5 blight
    Abilities: same as Dread Spider Baby, 60% (40%) Blight Protection; Evolve (Hunter Spider Queen)
    Vampire Spider Baby evolves into Vampire Spider Baby:
    HP: 44; Def: 10; Res: 10; MP: 32
    Melee Strike: 8 physical, 5 blight
    Abilities: same as Dread Spider Baby, 60% (40%) Blight Protection; Evolve (Vampire Spider Queen)
    AD13
    Baby Serpents have an intermediary T2 step in their evolution: Adult Serpents

    Thumbs up.
    Or decreasing exp modifier could be implemented, just as Zaskow proposed.

    #244927

    Zaskow
    Member

    Zaskow, could you please check this with Nourishing Meal?

    I’ve noticed through editor that leaders (but not the heroes) can gain EXP from touch abilities still. Fixing this now.

    my theo hero still gets convert at lev 7.

    I’ve overlooked this, my bad.

    That’s why testers needed. When I’m modder and tester in one… Well, you can see what happens. 😀

    Only for Spiders and Serpents? Yes, maybe, it’s another solution.

    Personally, I don’t like adding new units, because they need new model, new icons etc…

    #244936

    Hiliadan
    Member

    I’ve overlooked this, my bad.

    That’s why testers needed. When I’m modder and tester in one… Well, you can see what happens. 😀

    In v1.0 of the balance mod, Conversion was not changed, and except if you released v1.1 without telling, I don’t think Lightform could play with it. But you may have forgotten to do it in v1.1 if he hadn’t said it. 😀 So does it mean you’re almost done with the changes in v1.1?

    Yes, you’re right about the spiders and serpents. We would need models and icons. I’ll check if Charlatan or someone could do that but otherwise we’ll probably need to work with the reduced XP (if enough support for any of these changes, which is not the case yet).

    EDIT: cbower just told me it is possible to Dispel “Immune to Ghoul Curse”! I had never tried, this is quite crazy! So it means you can just dispel it, web the unit, and try again, until you manage to curse it (with Deathbringers, because now for heroes and leaders, it’s only once per battle). I propose to fix this and make it impossible to dispel!

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 9 months ago by  Hiliadan.
    #244952

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Ok, finally, I stop restraining from answering! 😀 I updated the table!

    I think Engineer as support for the resurgence mystical city upgrade which is HUGE. It drastically changes the survivability of the Engineers in mid-late game. That fixes the difficulties of having machine repair as well.

    I think the difficulty to have Engineer in late game is here for a reason. Triumph could have made the Engineer a T3 with much more abilities and punch but they made them T1 so that it is not too easy to repair T4 machines. I don’t think we should modify that. A better direction in my opinion is to make machines appear earlier (Golems) so that Engineers have some real use at the end of early-game, beginning of mid-game.
    Now I made up my mind and I’m opposed to:
    Dr04g
    Engineers are Support (was Irregular)

    Instead of Armor of faith, I think a better change would be to Great Blacksmith or Solid engineering to provide the Armored trait for Infantry, Pikeman, Calvary and maybe Archers who do not already have it. Giving the armored trait might include +1 Defense and would stack with Solid Engineering’s +1 defense. (I think the armored trait alone doesn’t give defense, In my mind the new vulnerability to armor piercing offsets the first +1 def). Great blacksmith & Solid Engineering would no longer repel players from other races.

    Well, that would be hugely OP!
    Again, I think a better direction is to boost class units of other races which are low on armors, to compensate for their lack of buff by Solid Engineering. Goblin, etc. Engineers and Musketeers could be boosted. But at the same time, we clearly lack data here to say that they are really behind. Here are the stats from all matches on the Battlefield http://www.the-battlefield.com/aow3/index.php?page=ladderstats
    Dreadnought Draconians was selected by 3 players (0% of total)
    Dreadnought Dwarves was selected by 16 players (3% of total)
    Dreadnought Elves was selected by 5 players (0% of total)
    Dreadnought Frostlings was selected by 2 players (0% of total)
    Dreadnought Goblins was selected by 3 players (0% of total)
    Dreadnought Halflings was selected by 2 players (0% of total)
    Dreadnought Humans was selected by 8 players (1% of total)
    As you said, we see more Dwarf and Humans but actually no Orcs (4 units armored)!
    By the way, Armored gives +2 def: http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Armored
    Dread Dwarves is clearly above but for the others, it is not so clear.

    I believe this was in response to what a Lesser Force Field might be. The Dreadnought spell is 80% protection from Fire, Lightning and Cold for 5 turns. I was thinking 40% for 5 turns and once per battle. I would argue that Dreadnought’s theme does include boosts to racial units: Solid engineering, Sidearms, weapon kit, and Suppress Nature all do that. To me it would be more thematic for an engineer to give a unit a gadget that the unit can use rather than a simple buff spell. But if Engineers gave a “Lesser Force Field device” you would have 1 turn for the engineer to give it and a 2nd units turn for the receiving unit to activate it, which would be painful. Unless it was a buff you could activate without losing a turn, like warcry, and maybe only lasted 1 or 2 turns then?

    I really like that actually! It would be pretty fun! The Engineer gives a Lesser Force Field Device to a unit, which gives it an ability activable for 0 action point which does what you said. It’s a pretty big boost though, so maybe Engineers should be made more expensive (especially considering what Zaskow already gave them). It would make them useful even without machines. I add it as:
    Dr04h
    Engineers have Provide Lesser Force Field Device: once per battle, it gives the ability “Lesser Force Field” to a touched unit.
    Lesser Force Field: the unit can get 40% resistance from Fire, Lightning and Colf for 5 turns once per battle, for 0 action point

    Bomb Squad hero upgrade to give sabotage to all units in the party in addition to Explosive death.

    This is interesting, it would make it more useful but then its price may need to be increased back.
    Anyone else likes the idea?

    For your other ideas, except if someone else supports them, I believe they indeed go outside of the balance effort and may make Dread too strong. 😛 But I think that kind of ideas should be used for Warlord’s heroes, which need some love I believe (not the leaders, the heroes).

    How about the could give blunderbuss or whatever it is called to a target unit/only muskeeters as a touch ability. It would make them more like real support units. Both abilities could be once per battle. Personally I don’t think musketeers need this ability since the are already not bad in combat (for archers).

    Ok so if you are yourself against this, I don’t add it. 😛 We try to reduce the list now, not expand it (and I believe Engineers are already buffed quite a lot in v1.0, we need more testing to check, they are not what make Dread unpopular I believe).

    Following Lykus and Eskild’s feedback, these got a “priority change” status, please give your opinion:
    Dr17
    Juggernauts produced in Halfling and Elf cities do not have Tree Crusher

    Ne04a
    Inflict Despair causes “Holy Weakness” (non-stackable) and “Despair” (stackable) on the target and is strength 9 (non-stackable). Holy Weakness gives 30% Spirit weakness. Despair gives -200 morale. (was Inflict Despair is strength 10, causes “Despair”: 20% Spirit weakness, -200 morale and stackable)

    Maybe it’s just better to place hidden modifier for decreasing incoming XP?

    Added:

    AD14
    Baby and Mature Spider and Serpents get 50% less XP

    #244973

    Zaskow
    Member

    EDIT: cbower just told me it is possible to Dispel “Immune to Ghoul Curse”! I had never tried, this is quite crazy! So it means you can just dispel it, web the unit, and try again, until you manage to curse it (with Deathbringers, because now for heroes and leaders, it’s only once per battle). I propose to fix this and make it impossible to dispel!

    It’s surprisingly for me that you don’t know about this. Make it non-dispellable is possible.

    Baby and Mature Spider and Serpents get 50% less XP

    No need to decrease XP for Mature Spiders, because spiders have only 2 stages in evolving.

    #245093

    I took the time to read and reply with a brief comment to the proposed changes as Hiliadan was asking me to give an opinion.

    GC06: Seems good.
    GC10: I don’t think it’s the correct way to address the problem so I vote no.
    GC11: Against it, doesn’t do much overall and seems to unnecessary complicate things.
    GC12: I’m ok with it, should also apply to evolved units tho (or at least those should keep the movement they had before evolving if possible)

    AD03: I’m against. I prefer GC06
    AD04: Against, I prefer GC06
    AD07: Agreed
    AD07a: I don’t like it, seems op.
    AD08: Ok
    AD08a: No, I think Sprint is too much.
    AD09: Ok
    AD10: I don’t like it. Just make them tier II if evolving is too quick and they are perceived too strong so they cost more and level slower.
    AD11: No, they are already very weak as is, the only reason they survive enough fights to evolve is due to players babysitting them. And when they are controlled by humans they do not take hits anyway. This would just impact auto-resolve and not much else.
    AD12: No, too much work imo.

    Dr04a: I like Dr04 more.
    Dr04b: Kinda like it.
    Dr04c: No, too big of a bonus imo. Easier positioning on the tactical map too..
    Dr04d: I like Dr04b more. Let’s favour Dwarf Dread 😀
    Dr04e: I like Dr04b more.
    Dr04f: I like Dr04b more.
    Dr04g: Ok
    Dr04h: No, that seems like giving them too much.
    Dr07: No, I don’t like the potential of having very early Golems.
    Dr08a: No, I think they do not need the boost.
    Dr08b: No, I like the way they are now.
    Dr08c: No, I like the way they are now.
    Dr09: No, I think cost is fine for what they do.
    Dr10: I like it.
    Dr10a: NO, I prefer Dr10
    Dr15: I do not like it.
    Dr16: Disagree, that would make machines too mobile.
    Dr17: Ok

    Ne04a: Ok
    Ne05: Seems cannot be done but I kinda like it.
    Ne05b: No, unnecessary imo.
    Ne05c: No, I’d like to test the other changes and evaluate them before.
    Ne05d: Ok
    Ne05e: No, too situational.
    Ne05f: No, I’m fine with the current level.
    Ne05g: No, I prefer the way it is now.
    Ne06: Ok
    Ne06a (there are two of them, I refer to the Inflict Ghoul as a touch ability one): No, I like other solutions better.
    Ne07: I like Ne07a more.
    Ne09: Ok

    Ro05: No, I don’t like giving powerful healing to rogue.
    Ro06: No, I think quick dash is enough for healing.
    Ro07: That seems quite powerful, I’m not sure..
    Ro08: No, combined with Total Awareness can be a problem.
    Ro09: Ok. Flavorful and cool, I like it a lot.
    Ro10: See Ro07 :p
    Ro11: Ok
    Ro12: Ok
    Ro13: Ok
    R015: Ok

    So06: No, seems out of place.
    S007: I like it, should balance X and Y tho..

    Th02: No, do GC06 instead
    Th03: No, do GC06 instead
    Th04: No, without the movement reducion is too risky I wont’ even try it.
    Th05: No, I think Divine Justicars is fine as is.
    Th06: No, I think Divine Justicars is fine as is.
    Th07: No, I think Divine Justicars is fine as is.
    Th09: I’d remove it entirely so..

    Fr01a: Is it a one time only? Or it loses 50% HP for every use? If it’s a one time only I like Fr01 more, otherwise I’m in favor of the change.
    Fr02: Gameplay wise I think it’s ok. Lore wise not so much, but I vote yes.

    Go01: No, quite a big boost, I think they are fine as is.

    Ha01b: Ok
    Ha03b: Ok
    Ha03c: No, I like Ha03b more.
    Ha03e: No cost reduction is too much, expecially if buffed via other changes.
    Ha03f: No, I like Ha03b more.
    Ha04: No, unnecessary imo.
    Ha05: No, unnecessary imo, make existent units viable first.
    Ha05b: Pony Rider are good as they are now, I would increase they cost by a little if these changes pass.
    Ha06: Ok.
    Ha08: Ok, but this is kinda powerful on large empires, need to test.
    Ha09: No, I like others Brew Brothers buffs more.
    Ha09c: No, this is powerful, I fear BB have been buffed enough already.
    Ha09f: See Ha09c
    Ha09g: See Ha09c
    Ha09h: See Ha09c
    Ha09i: Ok
    Ha10: Ok, I would even not increase the cost.
    Ha10a: No, backstab on flyers is dangerous.
    Ha11: No, I’d rather leave them as they are.
    Ha11a: See Ha11
    Ha12: Not form the start, make it on veteran or elite.
    Ha13: Ok
    Ha14: No, I think they are fine.
    Ha15: Ok
    Ha15a: Ok
    Ha16: Ok
    Ha16a: No, I’d only give them Ha16.
    Ha17: No, they are fine as is.
    Ha18: See Ha17, crusaders are ok.
    Ha19: No, don’t like healing on rogues.
    Ha19a: Ok, I propose Urban and Forest concealment
    Ha20: No, too big of a bonus imo.
    Ha20a: No, unnecessary.
    Ha21: No, but I like the -45 gold for Store House proposal instead
    Ha22: Ok
    Ha23: No, remove the gold bonus and it’s ok to me.
    Ha24b: No, prefer Ha24a
    Ha24c: No, I like the way it is now better.
    Ha24d: No, I don’t like removing terrain penalties.
    Ha27: No, too big of a bonus.
    Ha28: Ok
    Ha29: No, unflavorful and too strong on a morale dependant race.
    Ha28a: Ok

    El02: See Fr02

    Or02: I think Orc healing is enough as is.

    Anyway, my two cents regarding converted/ghouled units..

    I still think convert abilities should just be be removed from Leaders and heroes. CBower made a mod about it and it does work wonders into making cities the center of producion (as they should be imo).

    For the most part those abilities are perfectly fine on ‘produced’ units (charm on bards, convert on evangelist, befriend animal on shamans and so on) it’s heroes gaining them very early that unbalances everything. Maybe making those abilities strength 0 and upgrading them when you discover the appropriate tech would work too.

    #245116

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Following feedback from Fistandantilus (thanks a lot, it helps a lot!):

    New priority change:
    AD09
    Goblin Hunters get Blight Concealment

    Ne06
    Add a new “Lesser Inflict Ghoul Curse” skill with attack strength 9 and able to ghoul only one unit per battle available at level 9 for 7 points, and make it a prerequisite to choose “Inflict Ghoul Curse” moved to level 13 for 8 points (is it possible to remove the Lesser Inflict Ghoul Curse if you choose the main one?). “Inflict Ghoul Curse” needs the tech “Produce Death Bringer” to be researched in order to be active
    [reminder: right now, IGC has been replaced by Ghoul Strike for leaders and heroes, once per battle]

    Ne09
    Energy Drain has a spirit strength 10 chance of draining 75% of the target’s MP and is non-stackable (was 50% and stackable)

    Ro09
    Rogue heroes and leaders can now choose Assassin’s training: all units in the stack now have Backstab (stackable with other Backstab) – cost 7, available at level 11

    Ro11
    Assassins of King costs 5 (was 6), available at level 9 (was 11)

    Ro13
    Stealth Commander costs 4 (was 5)

    Ro15
    Rogue heroes and leaders’ Charm is a touch ability (was Short range)

    Changes almost approved for v1.2:
    AD07
    Frostling Shaman and Draconian Shaman cost 130 gold and 30 mana (was 140 gold and 30 mana for the Frostlind and 130 gold and 40 mana forr the Draconian)

    Ro12
    Urban Stealth Commander costs 5 (was 6), available at level 7 (was 9)

    Changes that are considered to be dropped but new more feedback to confirm:
    Ro05
    Rogue heroes and leaders can now choose Healing aura at level X for Y points

    Ha05
    Introduce a T2 Sheriff with smokey haze (poison units which attack it), poison resistance and possibly pistol, available at War Halls

    Dropped:
    Dr08c
    Musketeers’ Fire Musket does an area of effect damage of two hexes (in line)

    New proposed changes:
    AD15
    Baby Spiders and Serpents are T2
    (to increase the XP requirement to level up)
    I’m against it because it boosts their HP gain for each medal. I prefer adding a new step in their evolution or decreasing the XP they receive.

    Fr01a: Is it a one time only? Or it loses 50% HP for every use? If it’s a one time only I like Fr01 more, otherwise I’m in favor of the change.

    I changed the wording to make it clearer: it’s each time she uses it.

    I didn’t change the status of Halfling changes because I think we need to have more feedback on how strong they are with the boosts of v1.0. Boosting them more now may make them OP. So I propose to check their status after next tournament has started and we have some stats.

    I still think convert abilities should just be be removed from Leaders and heroes.

    Ok, I don’t add it in the table for now because I don’t think it would get much support + several people already expressed they would consider that breaking the game principles and would not play with it.

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