Balance based on hard data from the PBEM tournament (continued)

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Balance based on hard data from the PBEM tournament (continued)

This topic contains 246 replies, has 27 voices, and was last updated by  StephenDat 2 years, 5 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 181 through 210 (of 247 total)
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  • #252524

    Hiliadan
    Member

    New priority change:

    GC46
    Domains of XXX spells can be researched by Necromancer (were not displayed in the research book of Necromancer) and their non-morale bonus apply to Undead, Elementals and units of Magical Origin (these three types of units still do not start to “Like” the climate due to the spell) (was Undead, Elementals and units of Magical Origin do not benefit from the stat boost)

    #252577

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Confirmed for v1.22:

    GC38a
    Spiders spawned by the battle enchantment of Shrine to the Queen of Spiders (Arachnide Hordes) do not provide XP when hit or killed

    Cr04
    Temperate Empire gives +1 defense and +1 resistance to allied units in your domain.

    Dr08a
    Musketeers do 11 melee damage (was 10) and gets +1 melee damage at Veteran and Elite

    Dropped:

    GC38
    The battle enchantment of Shrine to the Queen of Spiders (Arachnide Hordes) lasts 4 turns (was 7 turns)

    #252582

    Zaskow
    Member

    Dr08a

    This is weird suggestion. I can understand range bonus, but melee…

    #252583

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Musketeers are good melee units already, making them even better will make them more interesting to build because they will be useful while they reload and the enemy charge them.

    #252585

    Zaskow
    Member

    Musketeers are good melee units already, making them even better will make them more interesting to build because they will be useful while they reload and the enemy charge them.

    Nope. Reload ends their round. Any attacker unit (typical cavalry) is better than musketeer.

    #252586

    Dustinidede
    Member

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    #252597

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Nope. Reload ends their round. Any attacker unit (typical cavalry) is better than musketeer.

    And? +1 damage applies both when you attack and defend you know? Also, I was kidding when I say when they reload, what I meant is on the turn after they fire, they can go melee.

    Idea I note now to avoid forgetting it: T3 should appear in Inns later, e.g. not before turn 30 or even 35 or 40.

    #252599

    Zaskow
    Member

    And? +1 damage applies both when you attack and defend you know? Also, I was kidding when I say when they reload, what I meant is on the turn after they fire, they can go melee.

    So what? This change can’t make musketeers more preferable to recruit.

    #252601

    Hiliadan
    Member

    I don’t get why you don’t see that boosting the unit will make it more interesting to build? I play Dread often and I will be more willing to build Musketeers with this boost. It might not be enough but it’s a step in the right direction.

    #252607

    Zaskow
    Member

    I don’t get why you don’t see that boosting the unit will make it more interesting to build?

    Because it’s wrong boost.
    Musketeer won’t be better at shooting with this buff.
    Musketeer won’t survive longer with this buff (at least with current form).

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 10 months ago by  Zaskow.
    #252634

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Other ideas I note to come back to them later:
    – Stiffen Limbs do not affect Incorporeal
    – Ogres and Trolls and Warbreed cannot be found in low level sites (e.g. Farms) where they can be easily mind-controlled
    – Bards get Mind Control Immunity (only unit with mind control ability without MCI)
    – reduce income from plunders (see the discussion about “no city economy”)

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 10 months ago by  Hiliadan.
    #252635

    Stiffen Limbs do not affect Incorporeal

    My understanding is that this is quite deliberate, and it makes sense imho. Incorporeal means non physical…nothing to stiffen if you’re a ghost…

    Ogres and Trolls cannot be found in low level sites (e.g. Farms) where they can be easily radio-controlled

    I can udnerstand this. Personally I like them being there. Imho, if mind control is such a problem (and I understand the arguments for why it is) then isn’t the new modifier enough (the making them cost more upkeep modifier) because you can tweak that to make it 100% upkeep if you really wanted…

    Bards get Mind Control Immunity (only unit with mind control ability without MCI)

    From a gameplay perspective, that makes sense.

    reduce income from plunders (see the discussion about “no city economy”)

    Personally, I quite like plundering, so wouldn’t want to change this.

    Again, perhaps not useful perspective, as I don’t play very much these days, and not much pbem :(.

    #252741

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Hiliadan wrote:

    Stiffen Limbs do not affect Incorporeal

    My understanding is that this is quite deliberate, and it makes sense imho. Incorporeal means non physical…nothing to stiffen if you’re a ghost…

    Hiliadan wrote:

    Ogres and Trolls cannot be found in low level sites (e.g. Farms) where they can be easily radio-controlled

    I can udnerstand this. Personally I like them being there. Imho, if mind control is such a problem (and I understand the arguments for why it is) then isn’t the new modifier enough (the making them cost more upkeep modifier) because you can tweak that to make it 100% upkeep if you really wanted…

    About Stiffen Limbs, that’s the opposite problem. 😛 Right now it can target Incorporeals and I say it shouldn’t (like you).
    About Troll and Ogres, here the issue is not the upkeep but the fact that these units are too strong thanks to Regrowth. Getting them early means a serious boost to your snowballing, and changing the upkeep isn’t going to change that.

    Some updates following feedback by rrrrookie:

    Dropped:

    GC16
    Pounce requires 3 action point and has Medium range (was no action point and Short range)

    GC41
    Armor Piercing costs 1 upgrade point (UP) (was 2)
    Break Control costs 3 UP (was 2)
    Coup de Grace costs 1 UP (was 2)
    Inflict Severely Poisoned costs 4 UP (was 5)
    Stunning Touch costs 3 UP (was 2)
    True Sight costs 4 UP (was 3)
    Phase costs 3 UP (was 4)
    Projectile Reflection costs 3 UP (was 5)
    Inflict Immolation costs 3 UP (was 4)
    Rapid Reload costs 2 UP (was 3)
    Guardian Flame costs 4 UP (was 5)
    Martial Art costs 3 UP (was 2)
    Tireless costs 7 UP (was 6)
    Healing costs 5 UP (was 4)
    One with the Tree costs 5 UP (was 6)
    Life Steal costs 3 UP (was 2)
    Energy Drain costs 5 UP (was 4)
    [replaced by GC41b and GC41c]

    New priority changes:
    GC41b
    Break Control costs 3 UP (was 2)
    Inflict Severely Poisoned costs 4 UP (was 5)
    Stunning Touch costs 3 UP (was 2)
    True Sight costs 4 UP (was 3)
    Phase costs 3 UP (was 4)
    Projectile Reflection costs 3 UP (was 5)
    Rapid Reload costs 2 UP (was 3)
    Guardian Flame costs 4 UP (was 5)
    Martial Art costs 3 UP (was 2)
    Tireless costs 7 UP (was 6)
    One with the Tree costs 5 UP (was 6)
    Life Steal costs 3 UP (was 2)
    Energy Drain costs 5 UP (was 4)

    GC41c
    Armor Piercing costs 1 upgrade point (UP) (was 2)
    Coup de Grace costs 1 UP (was 2)
    Inflict Immolation costs 3 UP (was 4)
    Healing costs 5 UP (was 4)

    Th10
    The description of the tech Exalted Martyr does not provide any XP bonus to Martyrs (was saying it gave +50% but was actually not). Martyrs evolve on Champion I (was Elite).

    #252962

    driveby
    Member

    Werebear is overnerfed. Granted; concept of allowing a T3 support turn into a robust T3 melee animal unit is going to be powerful unless nerfed to a point of clunkiness and near unuseability. The ability *must* be strong if it is to exist at all.

    At present, any time a Tigran Shaman becomes engaged in melee combat the ability is near-useless (such as any time a unit resists entagle and if they do not and the shaman isn’t otherwise engaged a triple ranged attack will be more beneficial); Shapeshift becomes unuseable whenever the Tigran Shaman retaliates due to the 3 action point requirement. In a manual combat a human player can easilly coax retaliatory strikes or even attacks of opportunity ( even with Predator a shaman only hits for 11 ) to make shapeshift forever unuseable. In autocombat the scenario is plausibly worse because the combat behavior was designed under the assumption shapeshift was good. A Tigran shaman tagged with 13 some ranged damage will shapeshift, then be unable to move, essentially wasting a turn when it could have done something.

    The direction of the PBEM limitations on shapeshift might have been apt but overdone. Perhaps allowing shapeshift at any point but draining the shaman down to 1 action point ( red hex grid movement), or causing it to use only 1 action pt (my vote).

    There also is the other option. If Tigran only shapeshift was causing such concern perhaps all racial shamans need shapeshift and Tigrans be elevated to some T3 version of a Dire Panther (Werepanther?) It seems like an good direction with the number of Archdruid complaints centered around the class difficulties with blight resistance.

    (As an aside on Arch Druids: Awaken Spirit (and probably savage rage) should really have a alternative effects that can be applied to friendly mounted units. Casting points as a bottleneck in most matches and the random results from all summon animal spells make iconic animal composition in armies somewhat random. These abilities need alternative sources.)

    Reload Cannon’s 3 action pt requirement is excessive though not totally debilitating as it was for shapeshift as cannons don’t retaliate or spend melee on attacks of opportunity. With reload already ending the cannon’s turn a 2 action point consumption would be sufficient throttling of mobility.

    Do Dreadnoughts have a stand-in research ability for (moved) Structural Insight?

    Lesser Mighty Meek might needs to be capped at +2 or even +1. Seeing T1 halfling groups on farms and goldmines as hero wreckers is feeling a little absurd.

    Engineers should enter defend mode after reloading (as Martyr/Theocrats do when using absorb pain). This alone would solve many of their woes of being flanked off the field after reloading once.

    I’ve noticed some back-and-forth regarding musketeers and melee? Has anyone considered the addition of a Fix bayonets ability? Akin to antiquity style bayonets that were fitted into the muzzle of a musket: preventing normal use. Something along the lines of an ability that spent 8 movement to add +3 melee, polearm, & first strike (perhaps not? pike square. exact numbers and values up for debate). Prevent reload & fire musket until removed. I think the Dreadnought most needs a significant overhaul but will save that for a future wall of text that no one will read.

    I’m not sure why Undead were allowed immunity to the Blood Pavilion effect added to dungeons.

    Finally there’s Death March. Incorporating Cannot Heal & Cannot Be Healed, if it shuts down all healing circumvention that’s already a significant change. Stripping half health is already a significant penalty; if all the avenues of circumventing the health loss are removed I would really need to see how someone is able to “exploit” death march to significant force projection effect. Half-killed stacks are only half threatening. Do we really need a double cost as well?

    (PS paging a moderator. There seems to be a problem with random thread reply advertisement spam)

    #253110

    Hiliadan
    Member

    I’ll come back to your proposals later driveby, thanks for this feedback on balance! Just a quick note: we never modified Tigran Shaman in the balance mod (and I don’t think they’re UP).

    New priority changes following discussions in the core group (+ the discussion on the official forum about Dreadnought heroes):
    Dr18
    Dreadnought heroes can choose Gas Mask at level 7 for 5 points: units in the stack led by this unit get 40% Blight Protection and immune to Choking Fumes, Suffocate and Disgusting Stench. Undead, Elemental, Machines and Incorporeal are not affected.

    Dr19
    Dreadnought heroes can choose Lava Walking for 4 points at level 9, it also gives them 100% Fire Protection.

    Dr20
    Bomb Squad gives Self Destruct (was Explosive Death) to Draconian, Dwarf, Frostling, Halfling, High Elf, Human, Goblin, Orc, and Tigran units in the stack led by this hero: units with Self Destruct can sacrifice themselves to cause 10 physical damage and 10 fire damage to units adjacent to them. Bomb Squad costs 8 points (was 5).
    The AI cannot use this ability.

    Dr21
    Dreadnought heroes can choose Activate Golem at level 11 for 5 points to deploy and enter a Golem once per battle: until the end of battle, the hero gains Machine, Wall Crushing, Demolisher, Tireless, Reinforced, 40% shock weakness. He loses the bonus from his current mount, the Mounted ability (and associated bonus) and his MP are reduced to 28. He keeps his race’s, items’, etc.’s other abilities and spells. Activate Golem causes the heroes to enter Guard Mode and finishes their turn.
    Activate Golem cannot be used while on Water or Lava.

    Dr22
    Dreadnought heroes can choose Force Field Generator Gear for 7 points at level 13: Units led by this hero get Force Field Generator: self-buff ability that can be used Once per battle for no action point and gives 40% fire, 40% frost and 40% shock protection for 5 turns.

    GC11a
    Units acquired through Ghouling Strike have an upkeep increased by +25% gold/turn

    Ha06b
    Halfling T1’s Lesser Mighty Meek gives +1 physical damage by tier level difference with the unit attacking them (was +1 strength on all channels per tier difference with the unit they attack)

    #253328

    Hiliadan
    Member

    New priority change:
    GC49
    Public Bath costs 125 gold (was 150)

    #254860

    Hiliadan
    Member

    New proposal:
    GC40b
    CP upgrade costs for heroes are reduced to 5+5+5+5+6+7+7 = 40 in total to get to 85 CP (was 5+5+7+7+7+9+9 = 49)
    Destabilized Mana Core costs 60 CP (was 50 CP)

    New priority change:
    GC40a
    Spell upgrades for heroes cost 4 (was 5), except:
    – Chaos Rift (stay at 5)
    – Chain Lightning (stay at 5)
    – Last Stand (stay at 5)
    – Slayer’s Doubt (stay at 5)
    – Stiffen Limbs (stay at 5)
    – Repair Fortification: costs 3

    GC41d
    First Strike costs 4 UP (was 3)
    Shadow Step costs 4 UP for Rogue (was 5) and Necromancer (was 2)

    GC41e
    Break Control costs 3 UP (was 2)
    Inflict Severely Poisoned costs 4 UP (was 5)
    True Sight costs 4 UP (was 3)
    Phase costs 3 UP (was 4)
    Projectile Reflection costs 3 UP (was 5)
    Rapid Reload costs 2 UP (was 3)
    Guardian Flame costs 4 UP (was 5)
    Martial Art costs 3 UP (was 2)
    Tireless costs 7 UP (was 6)
    One with the Tree costs 5 UP (was 6)
    Life Steal costs 3 UP (was 2)
    Energy Drain costs 5 UP (was 4)

    GC41f
    Stunning Touch costs 3 UP (was 2)

    Dropped:
    GC40
    Spell upgrades for heroes cost 4 (was 5), except:
    – Chain Lightning (stay at 5)
    – Last Stand (stay at 5)
    – Slayer’s Doubt (stay at 5)
    – Stiffen Limbs (stay at 5)
    – Repair Fortification: costs 3
    CP upgrade costs for heroes are reduced to 4+4+5+5+5+5+5 = 33 in total to get to 85 CP (was 5+5+7+7+7+9+9 = 49)

    GC41a
    First Strike costs 4 UP (was 3)
    Invisibility costs 3 UP (was 4)
    Shadow Step costs 3 UP for Rogue (was 5) and Necromancer (was 2)
    Call Lightning costs 8 UP (was 7)

    GC41b
    Break Control costs 3 UP (was 2)
    Inflict Severely Poisoned costs 4 UP (was 5)
    Stunning Touch costs 3 UP (was 2)
    True Sight costs 4 UP (was 3)
    Phase costs 3 UP (was 4)
    Projectile Reflection costs 3 UP (was 5)
    Rapid Reload costs 2 UP (was 3)
    Guardian Flame costs 4 UP (was 5)
    Martial Art costs 3 UP (was 2)
    Tireless costs 7 UP (was 6)
    One with the Tree costs 5 UP (was 6)
    Life Steal costs 3 UP (was 2)
    Energy Drain costs 5 UP (was 4)

    #254895

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Demoted from Priority change to “To be dropped?”
    AD17
    Independent Spiders and Serpents lose the Evolve ability (only summoned and produced units keep it)

    We should have the first changes confirmed for v1.23 next week.

    #255334

    Hiliadan
    Member

    New priority change:
    GC40b
    CP upgrade costs for heroes are reduced to 5+5+5+5+6+7+7 = 40 in total to get to 85 CP (was 5+5+7+7+7+9+9 = 49)
    Destabilized Mana Core costs 60 CP (was 50 CP)

    New “To be dropped?”
    Th09
    Theocrat leaders and heroes can choose Convert at level 13 (was 9) for 7 points

    Put “On hold” the following (waiting to see more stats on the associated class/race)
    Ro06a
    Rogue heroes and leaders can choose Antiserum for 4 points at level 5. Antiserum is a touch ability which can be used once per battle on a unit suffering from a blight debuff: it heals 10 HP and gets 100% Blight Protection for one round.
    Antiserum does not heal units on the strategic map

    Ro07
    Rogue heroes and leaders can now choose Master of Poison: all units in the stack get Inflict Severely Poisoned – cost 5, available at level 11

    Ro09
    Rogue heroes and leaders can now choose Assassin’s training: all units in the stack now have Backstab (stackable with other Backstab) – cost 7, available at level 11

    #256126

    Hiliadan
    Member

    New Priority changes:
    GC33a
    Combat Healing starts with an initial 3 turns cooldown (was 4 turns).

    GC50
    True Resurrect costs 50 CP to cast (was 25 CP)

    GC51
    Heroes appearing in Cosmic Events have Mind Control Immunity

    GC52
    A new setting is available for “Defenders Strength”: “Strong with Normal rewards”: Treasure sites do not give +50% reward value any more

    #256127

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Dropped:
    AD17
    Independent Spiders and Serpents lose the Evolve ability (only summoned and produced units keep it)

    Confirmed for v1.23
    :
    Ne06h
    Ghouling Strike has strength 8 (was 9)

    De05
    Storm Magic is T5 (was T6).

    GC42
    Dirty Half Dozen costs 3 upgrade points (UP) (was 4)
    Infiltration Squad gives Improved Wall Climbing (was Wall Climbing)
    Chaplain costs 4 UP (was 3)
    Pest Control Squad costs 4 UP (was 5)
    Charge Command costs 4 UP (was 5)
    Fleet Command gives Fast Embark and Mariner (was Mariner)
    Holy Champion costs 4 UP (was 5)
    Nature’s Resistance costs 4 UP (was 3)

    Ne09a
    Energy Drain has a physical strength 10 (was spirit strength 10)

    #256128

    I *think anti-serum should just be named serum.

    Those look like solid changes for rogue.

    Also, has anyone tested

    Ne09a
    Energy Drain has a physical strength 10 (was spirit strength 10)

    Logically it makes sense imho, as having no energy is a physical thing. I’d be curious to try this.

    #256129

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Yes, the 3 changes for Rogue in my post above are quite strong and Rogue is already quite strong. With its top ability Scouting that was introduced in v1.21 (+4 MP to the stack at beginning of round), it probably doesn’t need more buffs. That’s why I put the 3 proposals “on hold”, so they won’t be implemented before some time, if at all.

    The Energy Drain change will happen only in v1.23, so probably in about 3 months. I was against it but a majority was for. I guess it’s a good change but we’ll see how it turns out.

    #256759

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Changed from Priority change to “To be dropped?” following change of mind of Skuns and me.

    AD12
    Baby Spiders have an intermediary T2 step in their evolution:
    Dread Spider Baby evolves into Mature Dread Spider Baby:
    HP: 48; Def: 10; Res: 10; MP: 32
    Melee Strike: 8 physical, 5 blight
    Abilities: same as Dread Spider Baby, 60% (40%) Blight Protection, Evolve (Dread Spider Queen)
    Hunter Spider Baby evolves into Mature Hunter Spider:
    HP: 43; Def: 10; Res: 10; MP: 36
    Melee Strike: 8 physical, 5 blight
    Abilities: same as Hunter Spider Baby, 60% (40%) Blight Protection; Evolve (Hunter Spider Queen)
    Vampire Spider Baby evolves into Mature Vampire Spider:
    HP: 44; Def: 10; Res: 10; MP: 32
    Melee Strike: 8 physical, 5 blight
    Abilities: same as Vampire Spider Baby, 60% (40%) Blight Protection; Evolve (Vampire Spider Queen)

    AD13
    Baby Serpents have an intermediary T2 step in their evolution: Adult Serpents

    #257350

    Hiliadan
    Member

    New Priority change:
    GC26a
    Forbidden Sanctum no long have a defender set containing Nymphs and Shamans

    @zaskow: I cannot check the mod tools right now because I’m on holidays abroad with my “not so powerful” laptop and it would lag too much, I’ll try to check the exact composition of this defender set later.

    The previous Priority changes (since May) have been sent to the extended group for balance discussion, so we should get some confirmation for v1.23 in the coming weeks.

    #257355

    Zaskow
    Member

    Forbidden Sanctum no long have a defender set containing Nymphs and Shamans

    What is the problem?

    #257370

    Hiliadan
    Member

    This defender set is too easy and allows to get secret spells too easily. It’s a piece of cake compared to other defender sets.
    More broadly, we’ll try to make all sites which give secret spells reach a “minimum difficulty threshold” so that it’s not possible to get game-changing spells too early or too easily.

    #257407

    Hiliadan
    Member

    New priority change: Ne21
    Ghouled cities can be Plundered and Hasty Plundered (was only possible to Purify, Raze or – if playing Necro – Migrate them)

    #258404

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Confirmed for v1.23:
    GC33a
    Combat Healing starts with an initial 3 turns cooldown (was 4 turns).

    GC49
    Public Bath costs 120 gold (was 150)

    GC40a
    Spell upgrades for heroes cost 4 (was 5), except:
    – Chaos Rift (stay at 5)
    – Chain Lightning (stay at 5)
    – Last Stand (stay at 5)
    – Slayer’s Doubt (stay at 5)
    – Stiffen Limbs (stay at 5)
    – Repair Fortification: costs 3

    GC51
    Heroes appearing in Cosmic Events have Mind Control Immunity

    New priority change:
    Dr18a
    Dreadnought heroes can choose Gas Masks at level 7 for 5 points: units in the stack led by this unit get 40% Blight Protection and are immune to Choking Fumes and Suffocate. Undead, Elemental, Machines and Incorporeal are not affected.
    Choking Fumes target all units on the battlefield when it is cast and gives them Choking until end of battle (was a battlefield enchantment and could be disjuncted to remove Choking). The Choking ability is a blight passive debuff: it can be removed by Cure Disease or Dispel Magic.
    Magma Forge casts Choking Fumes every turn (the battle enchantment can be disjuncted to prevent Choking Fumes to be cast every turn but units will keep Choking, except if cured or dispelled).

    #258461

    Hiliadan
    Member

    New priority changes:
    Ro17
    Succubi cost 150 gold and 30 mana (was 170 gold and 30 mana)

    Or03
    Orc Impalers get “Impaling” (Impalers get a chance with each attack to immobilize the attacked unit) and cost +5 Gold

    GC53
    Draconian Charger, Dwarf Deepguard, High Elf Union Guard, Halfling Farmer, Human Halebardier, Orc Impaler are available at Barracks (was War Hall).

    + one that needs refinement:
    – Give Infantry T1 Volunteer or a specific ability (like Night Watch’s Urban Concealment) to fill a specific role and be useful in complement to the basic Irregular

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