Balance based on hard data from the PBEM tournament

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Balance based on hard data from the PBEM tournament

This topic contains 160 replies, has 19 voices, and was last updated by  Hiliadan 6 years ago.

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  • #242973

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I don’t know where you get that from. No, on the contrary. I think players are SMART, so they avoid something unreliable; I’d take Halflings only when I felt I might be inferior against someone – kind of as a joker (in this case I’d be prepared to bet a lot on being lucky.

    Which means, it’s in the nature of things that in COMPETITIVE play a majority will avoid something that is unreliable and based on happenstance and luck and randomness, more so than it’s anyway. So in theory, assuminmg Halflings would be as much “balanced” as possible, I’d still expect Halflings to be picked picked rarely, because playing them you are more dependent on “blind Luck”.

    #242986

    Zaskow
    Member

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=658796827

    This mod contains changes for Halfling racial units and RG upgrades.

    Changelog:

    – Halflings have 15% physical weakness (was 20%).
    – Halfling Nightwatch costs 45 gold now (was 50), High Morale on Veteran.
    – Jesters cost 70 gold (was 75), High Morale on recruit, Solace on Elite, scorching projectiles and Explosive Death deleted.
    – Brew Brother – Throw Cleavers – no range fall off, +5 HP, Minor Bard skills on recruit, High Morale on elite.
    – Farmer – new price 45 gold (was 50). Mighty Meek on elite, Armor Piercing deleted.

    Changes for RG upgrades:

    – Patron Military – Irregulars and Infantry get +100 Morale
    – Patron Economic – Outposts and Villages get additional +75 population (Necro variant gains +75 dead population)
    – Protector Military – will add Hunters to the list.
    – Protector Economic – Public Baths generate +100 Population and +8 Gold (Necro variant – Cathedral of Bones in Hafling Cities gives an additional +100 dead population and +8 Gold).
    – Champion Economic – Your Halflings no longer dislike or hate Arctic or Volcanic terrain (Champion Economic Necro – The Eagle Nest now costs 100 gold and gives the Halfling Eagle Rider 2 extra ranks.).
    – Prophet Economic Necro – Lucky Cloverfields in the domain of dead Halfling cities generate +10 gold, +10 mana and +50 dead population. Haste Berries in the domain of dead Halfling cities generate +10 production. Sunflowers in the domain of dead Halfling cities generate +5 mana, +5 gold, +5 production and +5 research. Pumpkins in the domain of dead Halfling cities generate +10 gold and +10 mana.

    #243066

    Hiliadan
    Member

    – Patron Economic – Outposts and Villages get additional +75 population (Necro variant gains +75 dead population)
    – Protector Economic – Public Baths generate +100 Population and +8 Gold (Necro variant – Cathedral of Bones in Hafling Cities gives an additional +100 dead population and +8 Gold).
    – Champion Economic – Your Halflings no longer dislike or hate Arctic or Volcanic terrain (Champion Economic Necro – The Eagle Nest now costs 100 gold and gives the Halfling Eagle Rider 2 extra ranks.).
    – Prophet Economic Necro – Lucky Cloverfields in the domain of dead Halfling cities generate +10 gold, +10 mana and +50 dead population. Haste Berries in the domain of dead Halfling cities generate +10 production. Sunflowers in the domain of dead Halfling cities generate +5 mana, +5 gold, +5 production and +5 research. Pumpkins in the domain of dead Halfling cities generate +10 gold and +10 mana.

    Updated Ha21, Ha23 for Necro RG.

    You Champion Necro is the current Prophet Necro right? Why don’t you keep it “-100 gold for Eagle Nest”? I added it as Ha24c.
    Also, why don’t you keep the Tomb idea for Prophet Econoic Necro? I added your idea sa Ha26a.

    I sent a PM to cbower to get his feedback on the changes regarding Halfling… waiting his answer.

    #243067

    Zaskow
    Member

    You Champion Necro is the current Prophet Necro right?

    Yep. I think all upgrades for eagles must be on one level.

    Why don’t you keep it “-100 gold for Eagle Nest”? I added it as Ha24c.

    I didn’t change anything, except additional ranks. Vanilla has wrong description and game really reduces cost of Nest to 100 gold. 🙂

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/nmuok9yne7b8lh8/%D0%A1%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%88%D0%BE%D1%82%202016-04-04%2019.48.31.jpg

    #243139

    Lykus
    Member

    I am somehow not able to ask for writing permissions in the document. Also is was told this is the right discussion for my proposal to enigeners.

    Wouldn’t it be better to remove maintenance and then maybe move emergency repair to a lower medal. I never got maintenance. 3 HP per round are far to low. But 5 HP are pretty high almost as high as natural healing for non-machines and it is stackable. It would also be possible to introduce a new tech which grants emergency repair or machine repair to engiees. We could even call it structural insight/mending.

    @zaskow: Maybe silver/bronze. I thought the problem with engiees was mostly that they dy to easy in auto. I have few problems levelling them against indies in SP.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 1 month ago by  Lykus.
    #243142

    Zaskow
    Member

    I have few problems levelling them against indies in SP.

    This.
    My mod tries to make their survivability acceptable on auto.

    #243447

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Ok so we failed to get feedback from cbower for Halfling, so I suppose the discussion is on hold for this as no agreement has been reached.

    I know that some players are not happy with the current PBEM balance mod and that’s an issue because our aim is to have people play it (especially for next tournament), so it’s time to address these issues. It looks like main issues are the lack of changes to address this:

    Theos and Necros (and druids to some extent) are too strong in general. It’s a fact. Power leveling is possible trough usage of the additional abilities (won’t list them here, as there are too many), have done it myself, have been on the receiving end. Also when doing early battles that extra +6 regeneration is invaluable, and as we know Theos and druids also get first healing skills on lvl 3 (correct me if I am wrong) in addition to regeneration, whereas the Rogues, Dreadnoughts, Sorcerers (not counting spell as a heal), don’t get this kind of bonus. (played tigran rogues quite a few times, had situations when was down to 0x hp for all units, and had to wait 2-3 turns to replenish some of hp, or rush towards the watermelons to get at least some hp back)
    Since removing regeneration auras seems like ruining the class gameplay, i’d suggest either to create similar regeneration skills for the mentioned heroes/classes or give them some healing skill, that’d allow for some extra HP regaining.
    Then taming/convertion/raising the dead/ghouling – to remove it would mean to lose uniqueness of the class. However they definitely must be limited, as it is possible to convert a tier 4 unit early in the duel (just mentioned powerleveling and healing effects), and it’d snowball even further afterwards. I’d suggest to limit converts to T3 (for starters, if needed reduce the strength of ability), (know that GRD is limited to own units in Zaskow’s mode, so for the ghoul curse – maybe get less strength behind it?) and then see what changes in the general plan for these.

    If you look at data from the tournament (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1z28mJy6bHfYKgHgwu8RbwpuldHqaF-CRj6pp0xJ7Kx8/pubhtml?gid=768678073&single=true), here are the results for AD and Theo:
    – 2 most played classes (15 and 13) but not overwhelming.
    – win ratio normal or mediocre: 53% for AD and 38% for Theo

    I personally don’t think there is a major issue with AD and Theo. However, I agree that they may have too much healing. Personnally, I think the “Healing” ability at level 7 for Theo and 9 for AD is too much and can be slightly abused in tactical combat (by stalling and healing all your troops). I believe it should be removed without a need for compensation.
    I don’t think giving additional healing capacities to Rogues, Dreadnoughts, Sorcerers is necessary. Dread has the healing Flame and Sorcerer has a spell which heals 30 HP and Mend Magical Being which can targets their invocations. Only Rogue has no access to healing. But if all classes had access to healing, what would be the specificity of Theo?

    So I add the changes here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1flsHncpzAmJa_2xMHZ6Tlp-mf69ej2mYrSGNc4V3_QA/edit?usp=sharing:
    – AD03: Archdruid Heroes and leaders cannot choose Healing at level 9 any more
    – Th02: Theocrat Heroes and leaders cannot choose Healing at level 7 any more
    – So06: Sorcerer heroes and leaders can now choose Healing aura at level X for Y points
    – So07: Sorcerer heroes and leaders can now choose Guardian Flame at level X for Y points
    – Ro05: Rogue heroes and leaders can now choose Healing aura at level X for Y points
    – Ro06: Rogue heroes and leaders can now choose Guardian Flame at level X for Y points
    – Dr15: Dreadnought heroes and leaders can now choose Healing aura at level X for Y points

    As I said, I’m opposed to the changes to Sorcerer, Dread and Rogue to give them healing.

    Regarding Necro, there has already been a lot of discussions about it in other threads. I add the proposed solutions but I prefer Ne05 and Ne06. + I suggest to discuss this directly in the dedicated thread(s)…
    – Ne05b: Greater Reanimate Undead works only on T1, T2 and T3 (was up to T4)

    #243457

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    You still have to solve XP-gaining and hero level-up first. It’s no solution to allow fast hero-leveling and make heroes uniform and uninteresting in leveling them up.

    That’s why I have suggested to try my mod. If that’s not enough, things CAN be tweaked so that Heroes will level up even slower. It’s basically just a question of what tier a hero is supposed to be for touch and hit abilities and how the ladder works (plus a couple of details).

    The mod in its current state treats heroes as Level 2.5 (was 3) for combat contacts and as Level 1.5 with touch contacts (was 3). You could get that down, obviously (and/or tweak XP ladder) – but things have to be TESTED; you can’t get that right in theory only, and I can test only so much.

    #243463

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Well, I don’t know if you noticed but 1/ I’m trying to get things tested, that’s the main reason of my previous post, 2/ there are several parallel discussions ongoing, so of course we need XP farming to be solved, but this topic supposes that XP farming issues are solved and then consider what are the other balance issues to solve.
    AlX and others in his game didn’t say they didn’t want to test the mod because of XP issues. They mentioned Theo and AD. So sorry but the priority is not XP (+ there is already a topic about that…).

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 1 month ago by  Hiliadan.
    #243467

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I don’t know how often I have to repeat this, but don’t you think that all cases that could be described as “effects of hero abilities” are primarily affected by the time you get them? I mean, it is one thing to reach level 3 in turn 2, level 5, in turn 3, level 7 in turn 5, and level 9 in turn 7, it is another to reach Level 3 in turn 5, level 5, in turn 9, level 7 in turn 13 and level 9 in turn 17, and it is yet another to reach level 3 in turn 6, level 5 in turn 12, level 7 in turn 18 and level 9 in turn 25.

    With the first one, it pretty much doesn’t matter what you do, everything powerful will come too fast, while in the last one it makes a big difference when you give Guardian Flame at Level 3, Nourishing Meal at Level 5, Bestow Iron Heart at Level 7 and Healing at Level 9, so you can differentiate a lot more and a lot better.

    As I said, if you test too many changes at the same time, you may gain a strange result. I think that all work on hero abilities (including Necro) makes sense only, after the XP-gaining stuff is firmly established, simply because changes there will change the whole hero ability balance.

    #243479

    Zaskow
    Member

    So I add the changes here

    You should mark changes decided and needed to implement in different color. Because I’m confused a bit what I need to do or no.

    #243481

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Yes, they are already in a different color: light green is decided and implemented; dark green is decided but not yet implemented (currently only GC04 about XP for hero kill and Ne06b instead of Ne06a); yellow is for priority changes.

    As we have very little feedback outside you, BBB, JJ, me (and some other players but not comprehensively), it’s hard to make decisions on other proposed changes.

    What do you think about the latest proposed changes (and especially – AD03: Archdruid Heroes and leaders cannot choose Healing at level 9 any more; – Th02: Theocrat Heroes and leaders cannot choose Healing at level 7 any more)?

    #243482

    Zaskow
    Member

    What do you think about the latest proposed changes (and especially – AD03: Archdruid Heroes and leaders cannot choose Healing at level 9 any more; – Th02: Theocrat Heroes and leaders cannot choose Healing at level 7 any more)?

    If you’re sure that these changes make PBEM balance better, I’ll do this. But for main (live MP) mod I won’t make this. Nerfing of healing in earlier official patch caused very negative reaction among live MP players.

    #243484

    kwibus
    Member

    Just to contribute by saying that I appreciate every bit of work you guys put in balancing the game, for me personally most of all PBEM as I don’t play multiplayer.

    I don’t really have much game time so I’m going to refrain from actively discussing and helping balancing the game else I won’t be able to play it anymore;)
    Either way.. Necro’s are OP that’s best I can say and I was under the impression that Flash Bang didn’t work as it should work in your mod. Text said it was still a single hex target.

    #243507

    Zaskow
    Member

    Text said it was still a single hex target.

    Maybe wrong description, I’ll check this!

    #243513

    Hiliadan
    Member

    If you’re sure that these changes make PBEM balance better, I’ll do this. But for main (live MP) mod I won’t make this. Nerfing of healing in earlier official patch caused very negative reaction among live MP players.

    Ok but then maybe we need another version of Healing, usable once per battle. That would not affect live MP much because auto-combat rarely last long enough for the abilities to be used several times.
    I added:
    – GC06: The Healing ability of heroes and leaders (Theocrat and Archdruid upgrade and item’s ability) can be used only Once per battle (was 2 turns cooldown)

    Following a suggestion by gabthegab, I added:
    Ha24d – Halfling economic RG3: Halflings no longer dislike or hate Subterranean terrain, they get Lesser Night Vision (+1 vision range underground) and Lesser Cave Crawling (-0.5 MP spent for each movement underground) (was Lucky Colverfields bonus)

    Zaskow, you said that kind of modification (Ha24b) is not possible through mod tools but then how does the Goblin RG which affects Volcanic terrain works?

    #243514

    Zaskow
    Member

    Ok but then maybe we need another version of Healing, usable once per battle. That would not affect live MP much because auto-combat rarely last long enough for the abilities to be used several times.

    It’s interesting, but auto isn’t issue here. 🙂 Sometimes in PvP you need healing more often than just once per battle if it takes too long.

    Zaskow, you said that kind of modification (Ha24b) is not possible through mod tools but then how does the Goblin RG which affects Volcanic terrain works?

    I think it’s misunderstanding here, because this change is already implemented in test halfling mod. Check changelog.
    I said that this is impossible to make like spell “One with element”.

    #243533

    If you’re sure that these changes make PBEM balance better, I’ll do this. But for main (live MP) mod I won’t make this. Nerfing of healing in earlier official patch caused very negative reaction among live MP players.

    Ok but then maybe we need another version of Healing, usable once per battle. That would not affect live MP much because auto-combat rarely last long enough for the abilities to be used several times.
    I added:
    – GC06: The Healing ability of heroes and leaders (Theocrat and Archdruid upgrade and item’s ability) can be used only Once per battle (was 2 turns cooldown)

    Healing must be usable on CD in PvP to prevent the other player from destroying half your army with damage spell spam or nuking heroes to death. In PBEM it’s a different story of course.

    IMO it would be better to ask Triumph if that can make battles vs roaming mobs/sites be treated uniquely such that all abilities are once-per-turn (aside from attacks and walk/swim). That change would fix many PBEM XP farming issues without changing the game much for most players. Any remaining XP related issues could be fixed by decreasing the XP contact counter. An added benefit of this is that the same ruleset would be used by PBEM and live MP.

    And with regards to hero balance, all heroes should have a stack regeneration ability. Call it “camp supplies” or “field medic” or whatever is generic enough to go on all heroes. If the player doesn’t spawn close to a patch of watermelons, it’s really annoying having to wait a few turns doing nothing just to regenerate HP; it is very detrimental to dynamic gameplay.

    I don’t think there is any good reason why every hero shouldn’t have a stack regeneration ability, considering how important it is when it comes to clearing sites in a reasonably timely manner. With regards to hero uniqueness, even if every hero had a stack regeneration ability, AD and Theocrat would by far still have much superior stack regeneration.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 1 month ago by  Dementophobic.
    • This reply was modified 6 years, 1 month ago by  Dementophobic.
    • This reply was modified 6 years, 1 month ago by  Dementophobic.
    #243538

    Hiliadan
    Member

    I think it’s misunderstanding here, because this change is already implemented in test halfling mod. Check changelog.

    Ok, I corrected.

    So what do you think of Ha24d?
    Actually gab would like something even more radical:
    Ha29 – Halflings no longer dislike or hate Subterranean terrain
    Fr02 – Frostlings no longer dislike Subterranean terrain
    El02 – Elves no longer dislike Subterranean terrain
    Go01 – Goblins get a -2 HP malus (was 5 HP)

    I’m against all first three because I believe the advantage UG of some races (Goblin, Dwarf, and in a lesser extent Tigran, Orc) and the disadvantage of others is a big part of the balance and of the fun. All races should not be able to play UG. So I prefer a RG3 that gives access to UG to Halfling (Ha24b), that makes much more sense.
    Go01 is supposed to compensate for the 3 others. So against it too.

    gab also said “why not?” for the 9 priority changes for Halfling, so I put him “for” them in the table.

    Zaskow, should I understand that you’re against GC06 too?
    And you didn’t say what you thought of giving healing abilities to classes such as Rogue, etc.

    #243548

    Hiliadan
    Member

    IMO it would be better to ask Triumph if that can make battles vs roaming mobs/sites be treated uniquely such that all abilities are once-per-turn

    Well, please do ask Triumph. However, you may have noticed development has stopped.
    + do you mean once per battle or once per strategic turn? Once per strategic turn seems like a big big nerf to me, unjustified. And it does not solve XP farming. XP farming issue is linked to XP, not to abilities.

    If the player doesn’t spawn close to a patch of watermelons, it’s really annoying having to wait a few turns doing nothing just to regenerate HP; it is very detrimental to dynamic gameplay.

    It may be but AoW3 is not a RTS… I don’t play AoW3 to have a dynamic gameplay where I have everything I want immediately.

    I don’t think there is any good reason why every hero shouldn’t have a stack regeneration ability, considering how important it is when it comes to clearing sites in a reasonably timely manner. With regards to hero uniqueness, even if every hero had a stack regeneration ability, AD and Theocrat would by far still have much superior stack regeneration.

    How? If you give +6HP/turn to all heroes, I don’t see how AD and Theo are any special.

    I write you are “for” these changes, but I’m very strongly against them.

    #243556

    Eskild
    Member

    Hi there, I read through the whole of this discussion, and it´s kind of too much information for me to proper digest and give decent input to every issue in the google docs document.

    I have only played halflings 2-3 times in PBEM games and have not had much luck with them (in live MP, I would probably not dare to use them of the fear of losing everything to the autocombat). Therefore, in general I´m for changes buffing this race. The sheriff idea is cool, I think, perhaps maybe just some of the skills of that unit could appear on medals on the pony riders.

    About the other halfling changes I´m for most of them, but would not be able to foresee if they would make halflings OP, but I don´t think that could happen in any instances. I don´t like the idea of switching the units around, even though the jesters and nightwatches are kind of weak´ish.

    I think a lot of uniqueness would be lost by letting all races suddenly not dislike/hate the UG environment, and I do not like the idea of losing healing on AD and Theocrat heroes – mainly for lore, but also gameplay, reasons.

    I think sorceror, dreadnought and rogue heroes should not get healing aura, for the same reasons as other stated, mainly their spells, the sorceror spell (can´t remember the name), the dreadnought guarded by flames ability, and the rouges quick dash. Perhaps rogues are the weakest point here, and one could consider compensating them somehow, not that I have the idea for that one.

    So a whole lot of nothing in those words, I was asked for my input, I hope you can use in either way.

    By the way, my orc victory in the PBEM tournament shouldn´t count as that one was won in turn 1.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 1 month ago by  Eskild.
    • This reply was modified 6 years, 1 month ago by  Eskild.
    #243560

    Zaskow
    Member

    IMO it would be better to ask Triumph if that can make battles vs roaming mobs/sites be treated uniquely such that all abilities are once-per-turn (aside from attacks and walk/swim). That change would fix many PBEM XP farming issues without changing the game much for most players. Any remaining XP related issues could be fixed by decreasing the XP contact counter. An added benefit of this is that the same ruleset would be used by PBEM and live MP.

    I think this feature is difficult to implement.

    And with regards to hero balance, all heroes should have a stack regeneration ability. Call it “camp supplies” or “field medic” or whatever is generic enough to go on all heroes. If the player doesn’t spawn close to a patch of watermelons, it’s really annoying having to wait a few turns doing nothing just to regenerate HP; it is very detrimental to dynamic gameplay.

    I don’t think there is any good reason why every hero shouldn’t have a stack regeneration ability, considering how important it is when it comes to clearing sites in a reasonably timely manner. With regards to hero uniqueness, even if every hero had a stack regeneration ability, AD and Theocrat would by far still have much superior stack regeneration.

    Agreed here. I’ll implement field medic for Rogue, it will help them to suffer less on auto. Also players often drop some types of heroes, because they have no healing.

    So what do you think of Ha24d?

    On military side you have very lucky eagles. I think upgrade must be better, like for goblins, i.e 2 types of terrains must present.
    Also Night Vision and Cave crawling look strange for race which never live in UG.
    Bonus for Lucky Cloverfield is senseless.

    Fr02 – Frostlings no longer dislike Subterranean terrain

    Maybe, no. Frostlings never lived in caves.

    El02 – Elves no longer dislike Subterranean terrain

    Agreed here. Dark Elves liked to live in UG, so implementing this through RG is logical.

    Go01 – Goblins get a -2 HP malus (was 5 HP)

    Will help them on auto, need to ask other live mp guys.

    Zaskow, should I understand that you’re against GC06 too?

    Against – in main mod, don’t care – in PBEM mod.

    And you didn’t say what you thought of giving healing abilities to classes such as Rogue, etc.

    I support limited (strategic) healing for Rogues, because people don’t hire them often from this reason (absence of healing).

    It may be but AoW3 is not a RTS… I don’t play AoW3 to have a dynamic gameplay where I have everything I want immediately.

    Surprisingly, but AoW3 has a lot of similarities with RTS on simultaneous turns in live MP. At least high APM is needed. 😀

    How? If you give +6HP/turn to all heroes, I don’t see how AD and Theo are any special.

    Theo and AD has aura healing, lesser healing abilities and normal Healing as addition. Even if aura healing will present on all types of heroes, AD and Theo would be much superior in healing.

    #243589

    Hiliadan
    Member

    The sheriff idea is cool, I think, perhaps maybe just some of the skills of that unit could appear on medals on the pony riders.

    Ok, I consider that for Against “Ha05 – Introduce a T2 Sheriff with smokey haze (poison units which attack it), poison resistance and possibly pistol, available at War Halls”
    and for a new “Ha05b – Pony Riders get Smokey Haze (poison units which attack it), Poison Resistance and Pistol on medals.”

    Given that we have 4 people against it and 1 for it, I think we can consider Ha05 as a candidate “dropped” suggestion. Anyone disagree?
    I think Ha05b is interesting but not sure about Pistols as it’s a Dread tech.

    About the other halfling changes I´m for most of them, but would not be able to foresee if they would make halflings OP, but I don´t think that could happen in any instances.

    Could you be more specific?
    I’ll consider you’re for all the priority changes:
    Ha03d
    Jesters get High Morale on Veteran, Solace on Elite (was Scorching projectile and Explosive Death on Elite)
    Ha06
    Give a lesser version of Mighty Meek (+1 def, +1 dmg by tier level difference) to Halfling T1
    Ha08
    Halfling cities get +75% on “Produce merchandise”
    Ha09b
    Brew Brothers’ Nourishing Meal resets the counter on Farmers’ Throw Chicken.
    Brew Brothers have Inflict Crippling Wounds
    Ha09d
    Brew Brothers ignore ranged penalty
    Ha09e
    Brew Brothers’s Nourishing Meal has an effect similar to Bolster on its target
    Ha15
    Halfling Assassins get Pass Wall on Veteran (was on Elite)
    Ha15a
    Halfling Assassins get a new ability Shoot Poisonous Darts, short range, 1 physical damage, 4 poison damage, Inflict Noxious Vulnerability, Inflict Enfeebling Fever, Inflict Exhausting Fatigue, Inflict Severely Poisoned, and costs 10 gold more
    Ha24a
    Halfling economic RG3 also provides bonus for haste berries, clover, flowers, melons

    I don´t like the idea of switching the units around, even though the jesters and nightwatches are kind of weak´ish.

    Ok so against Ha05a and Ha04.

    I think a lot of uniqueness would be lost by letting all races suddenly not dislike/hate the UG environment

    Ok so against Ha29, El02, Fr02.
    What about making it available as Racial Governance upgrades? It makes more sense because it’s a strategic choice. And it should not be available before Champion RG.

    I do not like the idea of losing healing on AD and Theocrat heroes – mainly for lore, but also gameplay, reasons.

    So against Th02 and AD03.
    What about Th03 and AD04, which makes Healing a Once per battle ability?

    So a whole lot of nothing in those words, I was asked for my input, I hope you can use in either way.

    Yes, very useful, thanks! And do not hesitate to continue providing inputs (if possible by quoting the #ID of the changes directly).

    #243591

    Hiliadan
    Member

    So what do you think of Ha24d?

    On military side you have very lucky eagles. I think upgrade must be better, like for goblins, i.e 2 types of terrains must present.
    Also Night Vision and Cave crawling look strange for race which never live in UG.
    Bonus for Lucky Cloverfield is senseless.

    Ok I dropped Ha24. I think we should make a mix of Ha24a and Ha24b but with Subterranean only.
    So bonus for all types of vegetables + no malus for UG.

    El02 – Elves no longer dislike Subterranean terrain

    Agreed here. Dark Elves liked to live in UG, so implementing this through RG is logical.

    Ok but El02 is not through RG, it’s direct bonus.
    So you’re against El02 and for a new change which would implement it through RG. Through RG3 I guess?
    I’m also against implementing through RG3. I still believe races should keep uniqueness and strengths through terrains and climates. Doing this would just make them more uniform.

    And you didn’t say what you thought of giving healing abilities to classes such as Rogue, etc.

    I support limited (strategic) healing for Rogues, because people don’t hire them often from this reason (absence of healing).

    Ok but not for Sorcerer and Dread? And not a healing skill (Ro06)?
    I think it’s a mistake for Rogue. If their heroes are bad, let’s boost them so that they’re chosen for a reason. We should not choose heroes only for healing.
    For instance, I previously never chose Sorcerer heroes, until I realized Master Illusionist was really strong + they had some nice spells that could be useful in tactical fights.
    We could make Rogue’s concealment abilities cheaper (like I proposed earlier) or their fighting abilities cheaper or available earlier. Or think about a new ability worth chosing Rogue.

    How? If you give +6HP/turn to all heroes, I don’t see how AD and Theo are any special.

    Theo and AD has aura healing, lesser healing abilities and normal Healing as addition. Even if aura healing will present on all types of heroes, AD and Theo would be much superior in healing.

    Yes they would but not for clearing sites, an aura can be sufficient. And Healing is not available early game.

    #243628

    Zaskow
    Member

    I think Ha05b is interesting but not sure about Pistols as it’s a Dread tech.

    I think Pony Rider is okay in current version. Pistols would be interesting addition (I always like some elements on AoW3 units from previous AoW-games), but yes, dread is problem.

    And it should not be available before Champion RG.

    Not sure. If we make only 1 type of terrain neutral, I think it’s possible to place it earlier.

    So bonus for all types of vegetables + no malus for UG.

    Honestly, it’s mediocre bonus. Vegetables and plants are too random. IMAO, 2 types of neutral terrain give more noticeable boost as RG3.

    I’m also against implementing through RG3. I still believe races should keep uniqueness and strengths through terrains and climates. Doing this would just make them more uniform.

    The truth is some races are too good on most terrains, while others suffer a lot. Their advantages can’t compensate this often.

    I think it’s a mistake for Rogue. If their heroes are bad, let’s boost them so that they’re chosen for a reason. We should not choose heroes only for healing.

    Problem is that heroes with healing are good and useful heroes themselves, not worse than Rogues at least.
    Take a look:
    AD – very mobile, can be used in shock flying stacks, has powerful range attack for beginning (longbow) and possibly has much more powerful variant (Lightning), very tough (+5 hp bonus and regrowth), good aura protections (poison and) gives economic bonus through volunteer stack, spells are not too powerful.
    Theocrat – morale bonus for stack, bonus non-physical attack for stack, very good nuke spell (smite), one of the the best convert ability(!), economic bonus through volunteer stack, divine justiciars (!!!111) and good spells.
    I don’t mention any healing…

    #243654

    Hiliadan
    Member

    I think Ha05b is interesting but not sure about Pistols as it’s a Dread tech.

    I think Pony Rider is okay in current version. Pistols would be interesting addition (I always like some elements on AoW3 units from previous AoW-games), but yes, dread is problem.

    Ok, I’m not clear what you mean? Do you mean you’re against adding Smokey Haze and Poison resistance on medal but think adding Pistols would be a good addition?

    And it should not be available before Champion RG.

    Not sure. If we make only 1 type of terrain neutral, I think it’s possible to place it earlier.

    So bonus for all types of vegetables + no malus for UG.

    Honestly, it’s mediocre bonus. Vegetables and plants are too random. IMAO, 2 types of neutral terrain give more noticeable boost as RG3.

    They are random but if you play Halfling, you can choose to put your cities next to them, with the RG3 in mind.
    The bonus you gave in your Necro RG4 are huge I think:
    “Lucky Cloverfields in the domain of dead Halfling cities generate +10 gold, +10 mana and +50 dead population. Haste Berries in the domain of dead Halfling cities generate +10 production. Sunflowers in the domain of dead Halfling cities generate +5 mana, +5 gold, +5 production and +5 research. Pumpkins in the domain of dead Halfling cities generate +10 gold and +10 mana.” (Ha26b) This + no morale malus UG is a huge boost and it certainly deserves to be RG3, not RG2. If you put only no morale malus UG but no bonus for vegetables and plants, then RG2 is ok.

    I agree with you that AD and Theo are very good heroes, even outside healing.
    But then we need to significantly boost Rogue, or nerf them.
    Possibilities for Rogue (I add them in the file):
    Ro07 – Master of Poison: all units in the stack get Inflict Severely Poison – cost 5, available at level 11
    Ro08 – Tireless – cost 5, available at level 13
    Ro09 – Assassin’s training: all units in the stack now have Backstab (stackable with other Backstab) – cost 7, available at level 11
    Ro10 – Scouting: all units in the stack gets +4 MP – cost 10, available at level 13
    + modifications of existing skills:
    Ro11 – Assassins of King costs 5 (was 6), available at level 9 (was 11)
    Ro12 – Urban Stealth Commander costs 5 (was 6), available at level 7 (was 9)
    Ro13 – Stealth Commander costs 4 (was 5)

    #243664

    Zaskow
    Member

    Ok, I’m not clear what you mean? Do you mean you’re against adding Smokey Haze and Poison resistance on medal but think adding Pistols would be a good addition?

    Yes, I’m not very happy with smokey haze, but think pistols could be.

    They are random but if you play Halfling, you can choose to put your cities next to them, with the RG3 in mind.

    I’m not sure. Very lucky eagles is very good buff too.

    The bonus you gave in your Necro RG4 are huge I think:
    “Lucky Cloverfields in the domain of dead Halfling cities generate +10 gold, +10 mana and +50 dead population. Haste Berries in the domain of dead Halfling cities generate +10 production. Sunflowers in the domain of dead Halfling cities generate +5 mana, +5 gold, +5 production and +5 research. Pumpkins in the domain of dead Halfling cities generate +10 gold and +10 mana.”

    Do you forget RG4 up for living halflings?
    +150 happiness to all cities. Easy and guaranteed. No place for random here. Happiness is much more powerful bonus here than ANY bonus for RMG structures. Sadly, but happiness won’t work for dead cities, that’s why I must create this…

    This + no morale malus UG is a huge boost and it certainly deserves to be RG3, not RG2. If you put only no morale malus UG but no bonus for vegetables and plants, then RG2 is ok.

    Halflings dislike UG, not hate, so it’s not so huge bonus as you think.

    Ro07 – Master of Poison: all units in the stack get Inflict Severely Poison – cost 5, available at level 11
    Ro08 – Tireless – cost 5, available at level 13
    Ro09 – Assassin’s training: all units in the stack now have Backstab (stackable with other Backstab) – cost 7, available at level 11
    Ro10 – Scouting: all units in the stack gets +4 MP – cost 10, available at level 13
    + modifications of existing skills:
    Ro11 – Assassins of King costs 5 (was 6), available at level 9 (was 11)
    Ro12 – Urban Stealth Commander costs 5 (was 6), available at level 7 (was 9)
    Ro13 – Stealth Commander costs 4 (was 5)

    Ro7 – mmm… I would upgrade existing skill – Poison Knowledge.
    Ro08 – could be, don’t know.
    Ro09 – good idea.
    Ro10 – excellent idea! Must have (in live MP additional mobility is priceless), but I suggest to decrease needed level. Divine Justiciars is on level 11.
    Ro11 – I suggest cost 4.
    Ro12 should cost less, than Ro13, because Ro12 is better and gives you possibility to hide on wider types of terrain.

    It seems that only we make conversation here… 🙁

    #243671

    Narvek
    Keymaster

    But others read 🙂

    #243674

    Leon Feargus
    Member

    Ah yes, I am reading too.

    Hiliadan wrote:
    Ro10 – Scouting: all units in the stack gets +4 MP – cost 10, available at level 13

    Ro10 – excellent idea! Must have (in live MP additional mobility is priceless), but I suggest to decrease needed level. Divine Justiciars is on level 11.
    Ro11 – I suggest cost 4.

    Although a good idea indeed, let me warn you that in early beta Archdruids used to have the ‘Pathfinder’ ability, giving free movement (iirc) to the whole stack. But the AI couldn’t deal with it because it would move units out of the stack, which then no longer had forestry, forfeiting their movement paths and freezing. Thus, the ability was removed.

    So, if just for live mp without AI, go for it!
    Otherwise, be aware!

    cheers

    #243677

    Zaskow
    Member

    But the AI couldn’t deal with it because it would move units out of the stack, which then no longer had forestry, forfeiting their movement paths and freezing. Thus, the ability was removed.

    This problem is common for different aura healings, for stealth abilities too. So, I think it’s not big problem.

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