Balance mod (prototype)

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Balance mod (prototype)

This topic contains 257 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by  Zaskow 6 years, 3 months ago.

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  • #239524

    Zaskow
    Member

    Greetings!
    I’ve created a small balance mod (will release on steam soon) for multiplayer and need feedback.
    Here is planned changes:
    Classes changes
    Archdruid
    – Poison Domain is Tier 3 now and costs 300 research. Maintain cost – 15 mana, Mana cost – 80. Poison damage – 12.
    Dreadnougnt
    – Reload of Cannon now needs 3 action pts.
    – Fire Mortar on Juggernauts now needs Reload.
    Necromancer

    Rogue
    – Urban Cover now works on Infantry and Support too (except Succubus).
    Sorcerer
    – Mass Stasis – spell strength changed from 13 to 11. On failure affected units lose 25% of move pts, not 50%.
    Theocrat

    Warlord
    – Warbreeds – get Infantry type and become immune to Fearsome and Fear Strike abilities.
    – Pounce ability (Tigran Manticore exclusively) – starts with 1 turn cooldown, targets can retaliate.
    Racial changes
    – Halfling Nightwatch costs 45 gold now.
    – Halflings have 15% physical weakness (was 20%).

    I need your opinions, suggestions and feedback. I’ve looked around latest balance topics here and tried to fix most obvious problems.
    Small notice: this mod will be for original multiplayer only. I’ve never played PBEM and don’t know about balance problems of this mode.

    #239534

    Hiliadan
    Member

    First, thanks for this very good initiative! We need balance mods.

    I suggest to split the mod into several mods, so that people can choose which balances they want to play with or not. Because I doubt many people will agree with ALL your changes.

    I may be wrong but I do not think all the changes you made were advocated by many players in the posts in this forum. For example Poison Domain and Warbreeds? (I may have missed some recent posts though? or it’s old discussion)

    You did not modify anything about Necro?

    I am interested only in changes for PBEM and among your balances, the only changes I would like to use are:
    Rogue
    – Urban Cover now works on Infantry and Support too (except Succubus).
    Warlord
    – Pounce ability (Tigran Manticore exclusively) – starts with 1 turn cooldown, targets can retaliate.
    Racial changes
    – Halfling Nightwatch costs 45 gold now.

    For the other, I did not read or see anything that convinced me they are needed.

    Also, you may want to add the comparison with the official version to your change log. Not everyone knows everything by heart (maybe they should, but still).

    #239561

    Zaskow
    Member

    For example Poison Domain and Warbreeds?

    About AD at all: http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/rework-archdruid/
    Obviously, Poison Domain is much worse than Glyphs of Warding.
    About Warbreeds. There are no topic exclusively about Warbreeds, but some MP players in chatting with me complained about weakness of WB against fearsome units. I think this change will be fair from balance and even lore reasons. Same goes for Infantry trait. WBs with it will be inflicted by very nice Warlord upgrade – Training Regiment. So, people will use them more often.

    You did not modify anything about Necro?

    I plan to buff Necro economics. Something like that – +5-7% to all types of income for each level of Racial Governance.

    I am interested only in changes for PBEM

    Small notice: this mod will be for original multiplayer only. I’ve never played PBEM and don’t know about balance problems of this mode.

    However, if you connect with other PBEM players and make concrete suggestions and ideas I could make mod exclusively for PBEM players.

    #239565

    Zaskow
    Member

    I plan to buff Necro economics. Something like that – +5-7% to all types of income for each level of Racial Governance.

    UPD
    Testing and implementing were successful. Upgrades works fine, however I need to add description texts and set all races, not only draco.
    City income without RG ups:

    Gold with all RG ups

    Mana with all RG ups

    Knowledge with all RG ups

    Production with all RG ups

    Dead pop

    #239568

    Mithlond
    Member

    I think this change will be fair from balance and even lore reasons. Same goes for Infantry trait. WBs with it will be inflicted by very nice Warlord upgrade – Training Regiment. So, people will use them more often.

    On the fearsome effect, fair enough, altough i have to disagree with adding the Infatry trait. Training Regiment Warbreeds sounds cost-effective overpowered quite frankly and dungeon Warbreeds is close to manticore damage with the the added killing momentum buff.

    #239575

    Zaskow
    Member

    Training Regiment Warbreeds sounds cost-effective overpowered quite frankly and dungeon Warbreeds is close to manticore damage with the the added killing momentum buff.

    Most players prefer to buy Manticores, instead Warbreeds, because Manticores have much better def, res, mobility and cost not too much with Training Regiment.
    WB is very vulnerable to support elemental attacks (all MP-players like to spam supports very much) and converting.
    Also I never count mystical building as balance factor, because they’re too randomly and unreliable.

    #239576

    Griffith
    Member

    I started making a balance mod also, but maybe I can put it on hold for now. Most of the changes you propose seems sensible. I’d like to make some notes however:

    – Poison Domain is Tier 3 now and costs 300 research. Maintain cost – 15 mana, Mana cost – 80. Poison damage – 12.

    This is quite a big boost. You cant really compare it exactly to glyphs of warding, cause poison domain causes poisoned status as well (which seems pretty powerful in theory). I’d up the upkeep cost to 20 at least.

    – Reload of Cannon now needs 3 action pts.
    – Fire Mortar on Juggernauts now needs Reload.

    That cannon change seems good, didn’t think of that option myself. Not so sure that juggernaut nerf is necessary though. I think I’d prefer not to nerf it for now. Dreadnought could additionally use some buff to engineer and musketeer possibly.

    Rogue
    – Urban Cover now works on Infantry and Support too (except Succubus).
    Sorcerer
    – Mass Stasis – spell strength changed from 13 to 11. On failure affected units lose 25% of move pts, not 50%.

    These changes look good. Rogue could use some other buffs too. I made almost the same changes to mass stasis, although I put the strength to 12 instead of 11. Dunno which is better. Inflict stun could be dropped to 7 strength, but not sure. Better option could be to make new inflict ability, as discussed in earlier threads on the topic. Also please drop summon fantastic creature cost to 100 mana (I’m fairly sure it wouldnt be unbalancing, and would make the spell more attractive to use).

    Warlord
    – Warbreeds – get Infantry type and become immune to Fearsome and Fear Strike abilities.
    – Pounce ability (Tigran Manticore exclusively) – starts with 1 turn cooldown, targets can retaliate.
    Racial changes
    – Halfling Nightwatch costs 45 gold now.
    – Halflings have 15% physical weakness (was 20%).

    Warbreed change seems good, would make the unit pretty decent with WL / RG buffs (although maybe it could use a small penalty then, -1 defense maybe?). As for tigran manticore, I think I’d prefer pounce removed from it altogether. Also, we discussed this with Abed, and agreed it would be better to give tigran berserker pounce only with experience (silver medal maybe?).

    Not sure if that halfling physical weakness change is necessary, it would only make the warlord eagle spam strategy more uber at least. Luck is already good enough to compensate imho.

    The necro economy boost could be good idea, hadnt gotten around to looking into it yet. At least Abed suggested something similar.

    Also I had put human and tigran settler discount down to 15% from racial governance. Although we could try putting it to 20% at first, would make for more nice even numbers. 🙂

    #239579

    Zaskow
    Member

    I started making a balance mod also, but maybe I can put it on hold for now. Most of the changes you propose seems sensible.

    I need more feedback from players, maybe I missed something.

    This is quite a big boost. You cant really compare it exactly to glyphs of warding, cause poison domain causes poisoned status as well (which seems pretty powerful in theory). I’d up the upkeep cost to 20 at least.

    Poison Domain is more expensive and come later even with all my buffs.
    http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Glyphs_of_Warding

    Inflict stun could be dropped to 7 strength, but not sure. Better option could be to make new inflict ability, as discussed in earlier threads on the topic.

    Problem with storm sisters comes. They’ll have 2 instances of Inflict Stun on elite and will be enormously powerful. If you want completely new Inflict ability I’m listening…

    Also please drop summon fantastic creature cost to 100 mana (I’m fairly sure it wouldnt be unbalancing, and would make the spell more attractive to use).

    I also can manipulate with probability of summon certain creatures. What do you want exactly?

    As for tigran manticore, I think I’d prefer pounce removed from it altogether.

    Personally I don’t like this idea. Tigran Manticore will lost all her originality. I explained what I can nerf more in pounce here: http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/tigran-manticores-really/#post-239471 , so maybe we could make compromised decision without deleting.

    Also, we discussed this with Abed, and agreed it would be better to give tigran berserker pounce only with experience (silver medal maybe?).

    Price drop must come with this change, right?

    Not sure if that halfling physical weakness change is necessary, it would only make the warlord eagle spam strategy more uber at least. Luck is already good enough to compensate imho.

    I think you know about Halfling weakness on auto battles, so my buff helps Halflings not suck so much on auto. About Eagles we could think about their specific nerfs.

    The necro economy boost could be good idea, hadnt gotten around to looking into it yet. At least Abed suggested something similar.

    See here: http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/balance-mod-prototype/#post-239565
    This is first variant – +5% on all RG. Your opinions?

    #239598

    Mithlond
    Member

    Most players prefer to buy Manticores, instead Warbreeds, because Manticores have much better def, res, mobility and cost not too much with Training Regiment.

    Manticore is Tier IV and should be preferable most of the time. My point is that Warbreed would become too cost efficient relative to the other Tier III units with Training Regiment. I think the pricing is right considering the overall strenght of the Warbreed, otherwise they risk becoming too good generalists obsoleting other Tier III.

    WB is very vulnerable to support elemental attacks (all MP-players like to spam supports very much) and converting.
    Also I never count mystical building as balance factor, because they’re too randomly and unreliable.

    Keep in mind Warbreed is supposed to be the mobile battering ram for the Warlord armies, although i agree it is vulnerable to support attacks then again many units are.
    High hp, regrowth and 36 movement helps mitigate the support bombardments somewhat. Warlord also has means against convert, blood brothers is a pretty strong one unless we’re talking mega battles involving several Warbreed stacks and likewise massed counter units. If i did anything i’d make them immune to fearsome like you already suggested, fits the theme and that’s a pretty large buff already, possible slightly lowered costs(10 gold or mana)

    #239599

    Zaskow
    Member

    My point is that Warbreed would become too cost efficient relative to the other Tier III units with Training Regiment. I think the pricing is right considering the overall strenght of the Warbreed, otherwise they risk becoming too good generalists obsoleting other Tier III.

    This is debatable. Let people test this change and I’ll nerf it if needed.

    Keep in mind Warbreed is supposed to be the mobile battering ram for the Warlord armies, although i agree it is vulnerable to support attacks then again many units are.

    Nobody uses WB as battering ram in MP. Most players wait a few turns more for Manticores and begin mass produce them. People build around 3-5 WB and stop. There is no need of ram with Manticores, because Flying.

    #239602

    Mithlond
    Member

    – Warbreeds – get Infantry type

    And also not to forget the Infantry tag would enable Martial Art upgrade and the less important Arena Rank medal. It has to be weighted against other units, Warbreed with all those buffs would obsolete several of the racial Tier IIIs for certain, i don’t think that’s good for balance or Warlord unit diversity.

    Consider the Warbreeds defence toolset is lack of polearm counter(for a fast unit) and a free heal every turn plus above average hit points & damage, it’s already an ok generalist and specialist in the mobile siege department. The balance point has to be somewhat cost inefficiency against focus fire both physical and elemental and vulnerability against strong status effects. Straight up mitigation(martial arts) is where the need for armored disciplined soldiers like Knights, Phalanxes etc comes in. Perhaps 20% spirit protection could be considered to help mitigate the easy converts. Since the nature of the Warbreed is a brute with low intellegience and with a preference for smashing things, thus some protection against religious conversions or seduction could be justifiable.

    #239603

    Mithlond
    Member

    Nobody uses WB as battering ram in MP

    That’s an issue then, wall crushing is a utility they have and shouldn’t be neglected in my opinon.

    #239610

    Hiliadan
    Member

    After both our posts Zaskow, I realized that we were talking of a split between the PBEM version and the live MP version. Is it what we really want? Two different games?
    The meta, strategies and tactics are different in both types of multiplayer but I think it would be best if we could keep an unique version for everyone.

    In addition to the previous things I said I agree with, I now think Poison Domain is a good change.
    For Necro, in PBEM, it is already very very powerful, so giving him additional economic bonus would clearly make it overpowered. Please check http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/necromancers-ways-of-acquiring-too-strong-in-pbem-at-least/ and http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/inflict-goul-curse-game-breaking-in-pbem/ and see if balancing these issues would be problematic in live MP.

    Also, you were not convinced by my proposition to split the mods in parts? So that people can take only the modifications they like.

    EDIT: one last thing, why don’t you guy register your games on the Battlefield? http://www.the-battlefield.com/aow3/index.php?page=community It would be helpful to have better indications on what is overpowered (or at least played a lot) and what is not.
    For instance, I can tell you that in PBEM duels, Dreadnought is not played at all and does not deserve any nerf for the cannons.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by  Hiliadan.
    #239621

    Lightform
    Member

    Zaskow
    Thanks for putting in so much effort to improve this game. It would be great if we could get a group of 10 or so experienced MP players to vote on the changes as they come up for review, although I know this is unlikely. So far those changes sound pretty good. My thoughts :

    Pounce – I like 1 turn cool down but would prefer it to be no retaliate, and no D after use. If we went with the suggestion of making it only available to berserkers on medal rank, then tigran berserkers would become weaker than the others I think.

    Inflict Stun – I think this is the most complained about thing in the game, and mostly because of sorc supports I think. One idea would be to change the sorc upgrade to grant static shield instead of inflict stun. Or maybe go with a second inflict skill as Griffith suggested, and make that the one the sorc supports get.

    Warbreed – Yeah they need something, I never use them. I’m not sure about making them inf.. I think Mithlond might be right, if they were significantly cheaper then I would probably stop ever making pikemen. The problem I find is that their regrowth ability really isn’t all that helpful. Any decent player will pick them off one by one, so they don’t get to heal at all anyhow. What about giving them projectile resistance and MC immunity ? That would mean they aren’t quite as bad cannon fodder to physical range, and have extra utility vs MC attacks.

    Settler bonus – I vote to have this nerfed as far as it can go.. 15% would still be effective.

    Settlers – Any chance of the incremental price increase ?

    #239622

    Azazir
    Member

    Almost impossible to balance live MP and PBEM in 1 mod. This is already two different games in fact, because so many units/classes/abilities shine in pbem and pretty useless in live MP.

    As for the changes…Most important one are:
    1)Buff warbreed, infantry tag at least. Mb later we will need a slight cost increase to compensate training regime.
    2)Nerf mass statis, rly, it is in fact the most OP spell ever.

    – Mass Stasis – spell strength changed from 13 to 11. On failure affected units lose 25% of move pts, not 50%.

    Seems ok to me, lets see.

    3)Necromancer needs that economy buff desperately..
    Live classes got about 50% bonus in lategame plus all those happy events (+400 lore or +600 gold form a big city, that is insane).
    Today necro economy is just…dead, you know. And all those ”pbem imbas” like ghnoul curce and etc…are so terribad in live mp.

    4) I am ok with pounce start on cooldown on manticores (well, not every player can place his army perfectly and manticores can hunt weak heroes at first turn.
    Still i am against of relation strike to pounce and nerfing bersercers, they are pretty glasscannon and eazy to counter.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by  Azazir.
    #239630

    Lightform
    Member

    Azazir
    What exactly can you do to counter mass pouncing berserkers. They have such a long range that I’ve never seen any particular way to stop them zooming over and doing at least as much damage to the enemy, as the enemy can inflict on the next round in retaliation ?

    Also.. why isn’t inflict stun on your list of required fixes ?

    I agree about the skills in PBEM vs Live. The MC skills aren’t a problem in Live, but in PBEM it equals endless free units.

    I do think that the racial settler bonuses are too imba compared with what the other races get though, because expansion = late game power. So obviously if you can expand more it is equivalent to being stronger than your opponent later. The alternative buffs to T1 units are meek in comparison.

    #239638

    Just a though re Necromancer, instead of upping their economic power, why not up their production capacity?

    It makes them slightly more like a Dreadnought and less like a Warlord, fits in with their existing bonuses (i.e. just up their existing extra prod capacity, which is +15% iirc).

    Zombies making money just feels off to me, Zombies as untiring slave labour seems more fitting!

    #239639

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    BBB, upping Necro’s production makes no sense – you don’t produce that much.

    Let’s for a moment just assume that Necro is OP in PBEM and UP in Live MP; the reason for this cannot be the “inferior economy”, because there is no difference in ECONOMY when it comes to those two different games. No, the reason is, that in live MP you cannot make optimum use of the Necro creature obtaining strategies OR level up your heroes ASAP, simply because you have no control over battles.

    In my opinion you can’t balance this at all. I made some suggestions in the other thread of how to “nerf” the things that make Necro OP in PBEM.

    The other change that would balance Necro without leveling him, would be to simply CHANGE the economy to a more Mana oriented upkeep – I mean, gold is fine for equipping Ghouls, but to keep them going, I’d say you need Mana.

    Let’s also take it as a given that Whispers is totally and utterly overpowered a spell. If Necro is getting a different economy by having to pay half Mana half Gold as upkeep for their troops, you could make Whispers earn MANA from the dead instead of research (2 or 3 Mana per dead tier of Souls sound good). Ghoul Settlers should also cost half Mana half Gold.
    This way Necro will have “free gold” and be able to rush more buldings, helping their economy.

    #239640

    Zaskow
    Member

    And also not to forget the Infantry tag would enable Martial Art upgrade and the less important Arena Rank medal. It has to be weighted against other units, Warbreed with all those buffs would obsolete several of the racial Tier IIIs for certain, i don’t think that’s good for balance or Warlord unit diversity.

    Problem is that WBs are obsoleted always by all these racial T3s (Shocktroopers, Firstborns and Knights mostly), because they come much earlier, cheaper and more powerful with all WL buffs. Maybe, later I’ll nerf WB for some stats and price.

    One idea would be to change the sorc upgrade to grant static shield instead of inflict stun.

    Sorc already has very nice spell for this. BTW, Apprentices aren’t very effective units, most people prefer to hire racials, because they’re cheaper and give all buffs from sorc. I talk about racial supports with healing abilities especially.

    What about giving them projectile resistance and MC immunity ?

    Projectile resistance in fact is pretty mediocre ability. +2 def against ranged is small. Maybe, making GREATER Projectile resistance could help. MCI won’t help. WB with MCI is still vulnerable to fear abilities.

    Settlers – Any chance of the incremental price increase ?

    Very little, I’m afraid. There is no mechanic in modtools to make unit price depended from quantity.

    The alternative buffs to T1 units are meek in comparison.

    Buffing and totally remake for RG ups (earliest especially) are on the way.

    If Necro is getting a different economy by having to pay half Mana half Gold as upkeep for their troops, you could make Whispers earn MANA from the dead instead of research (2 or 3 Mana per dead tier of Souls sound good). Ghoul Settlers should also cost half Mana half Gold.
    This way Necro will have “free gold” and be able to rush more buldings, helping their economy.

    I can say that typical ghouls with price “half mana, half gold” are almost impossible to implement (at least I can’t see a way to make this through modtools yet). However, such price and maintenance for some Necro class-specific unit are possible.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by  Zaskow.
    #239642

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    To be fair, I’ve been playing Necro more or less throughout since the release of EL, and I do think, that Triumph would do good to go for something like an 1.8 overhaul patch, dealing exclusively with Necromancer.

    For example, I don’t see any reason why Necro Class shouldn’t get a tech to simply increase the amount of work a Ghoul can do: you boost a town with Mana, and they get more out of things.
    I think you can solve a lot of issues with Necro by simply accepting that logically, gold is only needed to buy resources like stone and wood and so on for buildings and for weapons and armor and so on, but that it’s MANA to keep things really going, not gold. This way you can boost economy to the same level than the others – but of course you also have to do something to bring down the military gain via unit acquisition down to a reasonable level as well.

    #239651

    Zaskow
    Member

    Hey, I have one idea about Dread.
    What do you think about adding to him Imperial Upgrade which speed up Machines on roads and plains?

    #239737

    Hey, I have one idea about Dread.
    What do you think about adding to him Imperial Upgrade which speed up Machines on roads and plains?

    Doesn’t the logistics research do this?

    BBB, upping Necro’s production makes no sense – you don’t produce that much.

    I’m confused! I was saying that giving them a gold boost made less sense than a production boost.

    I’m reading your post as saying the same thing when you state:

    Let’s for a moment just assume that Necro is OP in PBEM and UP in Live MP; the reason for this cannot be the “inferior economy”, because there is no difference in ECONOMY when it comes to those two different games.

    Perhaps we’re getting our wires crossed wrt “economy”? I’m using that to mean gold production. Do you mean the same thing or are you including hammers?

    My reasoning is that Necros can rush units without happiness penalties and in testing, iirc, it was originaly a flat 30% prod bonus, which led to the strange situation of being able to rush produce a Gryphon Rider by turn 10, if you played your cards right, in live mp. I think Fen had the record for this.

    Naturally that was nerfed somewhat.

    What I was suggesting is a slight nudge towards that.

    I do think however that pbem and live mp are now very much different beasts, so I second Azz’s suggestion to split this mod in 2.

    Those that are pbem gurus (not myself) should list all the exploits they would like to see fixed (I’m seeing a lot of complaints directed towards conversion)

    Problem is that WBs are obsoleted always by all these racial T3s (Shocktroopers, Firstborns and Knights mostly),

    valid point, but is this a problem more with WBs or with all the penultimate class units? I recall a long discussion on Node Serpents…:S.

    Buffing and totally remake for RG ups (earliest especially) are on the way.

    Ideas?

    Anyway, @ Zaskow, well done for taking the initiative on this.

    I would ask though, is this aimed at total balance, from t1 through to t4, looking at every unit and class interplay (which is a daunting task) or is this aimed at sprucing/patching things, e.g. cheaper Human and Tigran settlers?*

    In either case, good luck, because the task is daunting.

    *I did make a small mod that I used myself where Settlers were pushed to Siege Halls and then Master’s Guilds, and in my own testing, it made a difference. There may have been confirmation bias because the intent was to introduce more opportunity cost in getting a Settler.

    Exception was Goblins who had it at the Builder’s Hall.

    #239740

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I’d like you to read my suggestions for Necro in the general forum which include a, well, strengthening of Cadavers. The AI definitely does Raise Cadavers with Necro (heroes), so what you need is a way to make more use of cadavers, actually for a couple of advantages, not the least of which is getting usable “Class” units for very low MANA upkeep.

    The extreme difference in MP and PBEM (single) play for Necro is the result of the fact that you can raise/ghoul an empire from nothing, if you know how to do it and fight your battles accordingly, which is something the AI cannot do – and also SHOULDN’T do, because executed correctly there isn’t much you can do against that because it completely replaces your regular economy and research making them somewhat unnecessary.

    So the solution must be to make snowball-ghouling impossible on one hand and give MP players something else on the other. Cadavers ARE something to, well, take the pressure out of unit production, plus they cost Mana upkeep, so if Cadavers could be put to more use, MP play would profit.

    In my suggestion I mention a 350 T4 research tech giving Cadavers a HP boost and stop (or decrease) their deterioration rate (the tech could also be a T3 for 240 or so). If it was possible, I would also like to allow Offering of Bones to give a permanent HP increase for Bone collectors – say, 20% of each Cadaver’s HPs offering itself (as a possibility) – this would obviously allow another decision, once Bone Collectors were available: do I keep my army bolstered with Cadavers or do I bolster one or more Bone Collectors with them (the latter making Bone Collectors more viable a playing option).

    Imo, Cadavers and their options are completely underrated; this becomes obvious when you consider that there is no specific cadaver tech. A more cadaver-oriented Necro could solve all problems while still retaining the special Necro feel.

    #239744

    Zaskow
    Member

    Doesn’t the logistics research do this?

    Yep, forgot about it. 🙂 Problem with this research is that it needs a lot of ‘useless’ techs (most players in typical live-mp matches don’t go into seafaring upgrades). My tech will come earlier and help to address some huge issues with Dread mobility. Don’t worry, I’ll nerf Logistics for machines if you support idea of this tech.

    valid point, but is this a problem more with WBs or with all the penultimate class units? I recall a long discussion on Node Serpents…:S.

    That’s why I proposed small buff, actually – working Training Regiment for WBs. I think it would be nice and enough. I can force to work discount even without giving ‘Infantry’ trait to WBs if most people will complain that inf-WBs are OP.
    Immunity to fear abilities is proposed from lore and background reasons. Scared WB is ridiculous. Giving ‘Strong will’ is easiest, but very dumb way, so no.
    New suggestion
    What do you think about giving WB ability similar to ‘Projectile Resistance’, but stronger? Something like: ‘Tough skin’ – gives +3 def/+3 res against ranged attacks?

    Ideas?

    A lot. Warning: this was the very first brainstorming and unfinished for some ups.

    I would ask though, is this aimed at total balance, from t1 through to t4, looking at every unit and class interplay (which is a daunting task) or is this aimed at sprucing/patching things, e.g. cheaper Human and Tigran settlers?*

    More first than second…

    #239754

    Thanks for reply and links Zaskow. Will read before replying.

    edit: what does the red highlight signify, in the doc you linked?

    If you’re looking for a total rebalance it might be worth you getting a collection of what people feel are the main overpowered and underpowered things.

    If this is for live mp (because it seems you’d have to seperate pbem and live mods) then I would suggest a compilation of things such as:

    Humans:

    RG issues blah blah (someone will say Settlers :))

    Orcs:
    blah blah

    Warlord: blah blah
    etc.,

    Basically, what the community as a whole thinks are the most glaring offenders, and what to do about it.

    For my money I think research income should be toned down accross the board, so that research sites are more valuable (also a slight boost to Elves) and so that the progression to higher tier units is slowed down slightly.

    @ JJ, your paragraph:

    In my suggestion I mention a 350 T4 research tech giving Cadavers a HP boost and stop (or decrease) their deterioration rate (the tech could also be a T3 for 240 or so). If it was possible, I would also like to allow Offering of Bones to give a permanent HP increase for Bone collectors – say, 20% of each Cadaver’s HPs offering itself (as a possibility) – this would obviously allow another decision, once Bone Collectors were available: do I keep my army bolstered with Cadavers or do I bolster one or more Bone Collectors with them (the latter making Bone Collectors more viable a playing option).

    actually sounds like a good idea.

    I’d need to play a tonne more Necro to get upto speed again, but I do like me some cadavers and I did get the impression Bone Collectors needed a little something, and it seems like this would kill 2 birds with one stone (then reanimate it for more stone throwing?)

    #239759

    Zaskow
    Member

    edit: what does the red highlight signify, in the doc you linked?

    Vanilla unchanged RG ups (where I have no idea how to remake it).

    If you’re looking for a total rebalance it might be worth you getting a collection of what people feel are the main overpowered and underpowered things.

    Hmm, depends from what you think about rebalance itself.

    My main targets:
    – Make every (well, as much as possible) unit of every race valid alternative for hiring. For example, what swordsman you’ll recruit when have access to all races? Obvious answer: dwarf or orc. I think it’s not very good. If I can’t make unit great through abilities or stats it must balanced through price.
    – Buff old original specializations. Currently, they’re obsoleted by new content – Grey Guard mostly.
    – Find strange quirks and bugs left by Triumphs (yep, they’re present).
    – Buff or remake some UP class skills (examples: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7) or very rarely seen spells/skills for new strategies.
    – Fix obvious balance problems and holes (Mass Stasis is most noticeable example).

    #239762

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    @ JJ, your paragraph:

    In my suggestion I mention a 350 T4 research tech giving Cadavers a HP boost and stop (or decrease) their deterioration rate (the tech could also be a T3 for 240 or so). If it was possible, I would also like to allow Offering of Bones to give a permanent HP increase for Bone collectors – say, 20% of each Cadaver’s HPs offering itself (as a possibility) – this would obviously allow another decision, once Bone Collectors were available: do I keep my army bolstered with Cadavers or do I bolster one or more Bone Collectors with them (the latter making Bone Collectors more viable a playing option).

    actually sounds like a good idea.

    I’d need to play a tonne more Necro to get upto speed again, but I do like me some cadavers and I did get the impression Bone Collectors needed a little something, and it seems like this would kill 2 birds with one stone (then reanimate it for more stone throwing?)

    Yeah, I’ve been playing a lot of Necro, and between Banshees and all the good Ghouled units Bone Collectors are somewhat “expensive” to come by.
    My impression is, that the whole Ghouling business is overpowering the whole Class. I’m not even sure whether Necro heroes should not be able to get it all, not because of power reasons, but because of the fact that this would force players to wait for Death Bringers to go ghouling, which in turn would make Cadavers and Bone Collectors more important.

    Another option might be to make Inflict Ghoul Curse check weaker for each try of the same hero per combat: the first unit a hero would hit in a battle would have an 8 check, the next a 7 check, and so on, making it increasingly unlikely to ghoul more units, but I don’t know whether that is even possible.

    #239801

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Guys, I’m a PBEM-only players and I still think we should not split the game in 2 by doing live-MP mod and PBEM mod.

    Your modifications can be accepted in PBEM I think. It would just be better to see if some are not that useful and drop them.
    And I’m sure you can take some modifications that are necessary for PBEM without affecting too much live-MP balance, especially those regarding conversions (including from Necro).

    A mod fixing the Necro is urgent. The solution is not yet agreed upon though, but a mod with one solution implemented (probably the one proposed by JJ) would be good: we could test it.

    And I still think a balance mod should be split in sub-mods because when you have more than 20 changes, clearly not everyone wants to play with all of them.

    #239803

    Zaskow
    Member

    Guys, I’m a PBEM-only players and I still think we should not split the game in 2 by doing live-MP mod and PBEM mod.

    I’m not sure that this is possible. Simplest example: nerfing ghouling by deathbringers makes this unit completely unusable in live-MP (even now it’s pretty mediocre).

    And I’m sure you can take some modifications that are necessary for PBEM without affecting too much live-MP balance, especially those regarding conversions (including from Necro).

    Currently I think that this ones will be acceptable both PBEM and live-MP community:
    – nerfing Greater Reanimate Undead – only YOUR undeads can be raised again with 75% HP.
    – nerfing Inflict Despair – lowering strength to 8-9, Spirit Weakness inflicted by this ability will be lower from 20% to 10-15%.

    And I still think a balance mod should be split in sub-mods because when you have more than 20 changes, clearly not everyone wants to play with all of them.

    A pretty complicated and could cause additional conflicts and bugs.

    #239807

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Simplest example: nerfing ghouling by deathbringers makes this unit completely unusable in live-MP (even now it’s pretty mediocre).

    Actually, no-one suggest to remove ghouling from deathbringer (JJ did but he changed his ming, as far as I know).

    Ok, so bad that having sub-mods could cause bugs. Then maybe one “core balance” mod with things agreed by most people and “beta balance” with the rest?

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