Balancing sites

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This topic contains 19 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  Hiliadan 3 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #247018

    Hiliadan
    Member

    There is currently an issue with some high-level structures (Legendary and Mythic and to a lesser extent Epic) with high rewards but too little risks. It brings unbalance to the game because players who do them early gets very good rewards which further help them to do this kind of sites, and they snowball into very strong stacks too early.
    The main issue is I think that some high level sites can be done in many turns, with a lot of turns to position yourself, then a lot of turns to play cat and mouse, heal, use immobilization abilities, etc. So I propose to systematically add damage battle enchantment to high-level sites, which will make these tactics much harder because players will take damage every turn.

    Dungeon
    The best example of this issue! It is a Legendary sites, which give the 2nd best types of items and which also give the best reward to snowball: 2 T3 (or sometimes T2 instead) but it has <u>no battle enchantment at all<!/u>!!!
    Suggested battle enchantments:
    The damage one I think could be relevant (physical like most of Dungeon’s units)
    – Suffocate cast on a human player unit every turn (http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Suffocate)
    Other possibilities (but I think it’s necessary to have damage so Suffocate is probably better):
    – Bloodbath for AI units (http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Bloodbath)
    – Mass Battlefield Panic with cool down at 3 on start up (http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Mass_Battlefield_Panic)
    – Relentless Army for AI units (http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Relentless_Army)
    – Sadism (http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Sadism)
    Other suggestion:
    Reduce the value of the units in the reward by 30%

    Forbidden Sanctum (Legendary)
    This site can be a game changer when you get Earth Elemental as a reward for instance. We may want to remove Earth Elemental (and maybe all Elementals) from its reward list.
    Its current battle enchantment is pretty ridiculous for a Legendary sites: Mass Bless. Ok it makes units inside harder to kill, but that’s not really a true obstacle when you have a strong army.
    I would suggest the following replacements:
    – Pandemonium cast every turn, start with 3 turns cooldown; but may be too strong for a Legendary site + it also affects AI units (http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Pandemonium)
    – Chaos Rift cast every turn, start with 4 turns cooldown; same, it may be too strong (http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Chaos_Rift)
    – Cosmic Spray cast every turn, no cooldown; maybe too similar to Wizard Tower (http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Cosmic_Spray)

    Sunken City (Legendary)
    Again, no battle enchantment!!!
    – Chain Lightning cast every turn, start with 4 turns cooldown; may be a bit too strong (http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Chain_Lightning)
    – Vengeful Frost cast every turn on 1 unit of the player; may be too weak (http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Vengeful_Frost)

    Sphynx Temple (Legendary)
    Greater Immolation is good but a little too weak, it should probably affect 2 units every turn or 1 to 2 units every turn, but not sure if it’s possible to mod?

    Shrine of the Frozen (could be considered Strong or maybe Epic) beauty vs Hall of the Forefathers (Legendary)
    The first one provides less rewards but has Hailstorm (20 phys damage and 5 frost damage in 2 hex radius, randomly) while the other has Glacial Totem that gives no damage (but makes the units more susceptible to frost, which is good but not good enough)! I think it clearly needs to be switched here! Hailstorm makes stalling fights very very risky, it clearly belongs to a high level site.

    And now the Mythical ones!
    Ziggurat (Mythical)
    Can you believe it? Yes, no battle enchantment!
    So proposals:
    – Pandemonium cast every turn, start with 3 turns cooldown (http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Pandemonium)
    – Chaos Rift cast every turn, start with 4 turns cooldown (http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Chaos_Rift)
    – Filth Pit (the racial defence of Goblins: http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Buildings#Racial_Defense_Buildings)

    Lost City (Mythical)
    Same issue!
    Not sure what to add but could be for instance:
    – Shock Missile cast every turn on 1 unit of the player (http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Shock_Missile)
    – Bell Tower (racial defence of Humans http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Buildings#Racial_Defense_Buildings)

    Castle of the Lich King (Mythical)
    It is a very hard site but there is one issue: Warlord’s Blood Brother allow to do it very easily. I propose to change its Undying Army battle enchantment to make it custom for this site and also give 20% Spirit Weakness, making units with Blood Brother take at least some risks.

    Other lesser issues:

    Spring of Life / Corrupted Spring (Epic)
    No battle Enchantment.
    Could add Revive Instinct on cooldown 4 at start (http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Revive_Instinct).

    Flowrock Quarry (Epic)
    No battle Enchantment.
    Not sure what to add.

    I considered only adding existing spells for battle enchantment to make things easier to mod (except for Castle of the Lich King). But we should certainly consider making custom-made spells to be more balanced.

    Any ideas?

    #247019

    Gloweye
    Member

    Dungeon:

    I kinda like Sadism. Nothing wrong if you do it neatly, but losing stuff is under heavy penalty.

    Forbidden Sanctum: It actually has multiple adventure sets, and alternates Mass Bless and Mass Curse, depending on defenders.

    Now, I actually think both of these are very strong. Turnly Shock Missle would fit in nicely with it’s magical nature (30 mana income, magic type rewards), but I actually think that would be weaker.

    Sunken City:

    That much of a trouble? Warships and Krakens are pretty strong for their unit set value….

    That said, perhaps something like a Mass Curse-type enchantment affecting only embarked units. Call it “unpredictable waters” or something like that. (cause of all the structures which are just submerged, but can perhaps damage boats.)

    Sphinx Temple:

    I must say immolation really sucks, considering there’s often Watchers in there that know what to do with the resistance malus. Also, I think the fire damage will already disencourage stretching battle length.

    Shrine of the Frozen Beauty:

    I don’t think Hailstorm should be on a high level site – it’s a massive double-edged sword already. It might hit the guards instead of you. Also, it’s plenty rewarding to clear – stack Frost Aura is strong and can easily give a leg up against stronger dungeons, like Lost Cities and Dungeons can often easily be cleared with it, moreso than other shrines enable.

    Hall of the Forefathers:
    It actually is also a stacking debuff that reduces defense, and every single guardian has frost damage. I don’t think this is to weak.

    Ziggurat: Good point, but gold dragons are scary. Then again, it spawns double manticores as well, which is to weak. It’s possible to only affect those, if we want to. Perhaps this is a good place for Tireless Army ? (or however it’s called). Otherwise, double down on toxicity and give them Total Awareness Army.

    Lost City: What about mass bless ? It’s really incredibly annoying to deal less damage against regrowth naga’s and healing serpents, while webbing gluttons gets a lot harder. Also, the morale boost is lethal on sprinting serpents…

    Castle of the Lich King: Think it’s good the way it is. I think a spirit debuff is to lethal for the rest of the world.

    Spring of Life / Flowrock Quarry:

    Unlike the others (excluding shrine), you can attack these with multiple stacks, and their rewards (especially from the spring) are significantly lower(unicorn or 69 gold from killing a Dire Bear / Shaman and it’s buddies? ). I don’t really think there’s an issue.

    Corrupted Spring doesn’t spawn in vanilla RMG, and the only mod that adds it that I know of is Decodence RMG. While you could argue for a battlefield enchantment, I don’t really think it’s that important.

    #247022

    ezysquire
    Member

    Making the treasure sites more dangerous for the player will have the effect of slowing the game down as players go longer without taking the sites on. This is not a great thing for a game like AoW III which is already an epic to play.
    It’s also a change that impacts average players more than top players as top players can find ways to deal with the new challenges, whereas many average players struggle enough with these sites as they are. Is that fair?
    That said, some tweaks are probably OK, but I don’t believe introducing high tier spells as enchantments all over the place is a good idea.
    It’s also important that the enchantments don’t stand to ruin a player’s top stack on the roll of a dice. For example, adding Mass Panic is going too far as a player could potentially lose their whole stack on a bad dice roll. ie everything panics and gets slaughtered by a bunch of zerkers. Not fun and kills your game, all through no fault of your own.
    Mass effect spells are dangerous in this way. Damage-dealing and mind-control enchantments should only affect one unit at a time so the player has the chance to use their other units to make up for and cover/protect the one that got hit.
    I agree some enchantments could be added/changed, but this should not go too far. I also think it’s OK for some sites to have the same enchantment, so with this in mind – perhaps introducing the lost library’s anti-magic field enchantment in more sites might be a better fix to the issue of slow-down technique abuse.
    Changes that I think are OK:
    Dungeon: Slow (with cooldown)
    Forbidden Sanctum: Anti-Magic Field
    Sunken City: Mass Curse
    Ziggurat: Sadism
    Lost City: Mass Bless

    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by  ezysquire.
    #247024

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Making the treasure sites more dangerous for the player will have the effect of slowing the game down as players go longer without taking the sites on. This is not a great thing for a game like AoW III which is already an epic to play.
    It’s also a change that impacts average players more than top players as top players can find ways to deal with the new challenges, whereas many average players struggle enough with these sites as they are. Is that fair?

    You touch the heart of the issue here. The exact aim of these changes would be to slow down the game. You are new on the Battlefield so I do not know your level yet, but do you think it is normal that Dungeon can be done on turn 2 (or turn 4 if it’s far from your throne) on Strong Defender and Weak starting army? Do you think it’s normal to do Mythical Sites on turn 10 as gab or cbower can do? Do you think it’s normal that by turn 20 (on Strong Defenders and Weak starting army again), you can relatively easily get a lvl 15 hero if you focused on it and you can routinely do all types of sites? Several players on the BF can do that, including me, even though I’m worst than gab and cbower. That makes creating a ubber stack with no produced units more important than building an empire and producing units.
    Actually, I believe this will affect more top players than average players. And my aim is to affect top players more than average players anyway. Because currently average players cannot take high level sites early anyway. After the changes, they will still not be able to take them, but top players won’t either. Top players will have to build units instead of just getting 1 or 2 ubber heroes with crazy items, 100% resistance in several channels, resurgence, life stealing, tireless, etc. Top players will need to adapt.
    My aim is that the power surge from producing units more or less come at the same time as the power surge for focusing on making a “stack of death”. Right now, the latter comes several turns before the former.

    Now, I agree with you that the ultra-strong battle enchantment I proposed are probably too strong (Chaos Rift, Pandemonium, …). And yes, it’s probably better to make battle enchantment that hit units one at a time.
    But I somehow disagree with Mass Battlefield Panic being able to destroy a whole stack on the roll of a dice: if it starts with a 4 turns cooldown, it means you know exactly when it will hit and you can prepare for that, both before the fight (do not bring units with low resistance of spirit weakness) and during the fight: make sure your units are far from exits (which is easier in Dungeon because there are only 2 exit areas and the map is big) and will not take too many attacks of opportunity. And the spell would hit only once. I think that is manageable. Remember that it is a Legendary site and it gives one of the best (short term) reward.

    Mass Bless and Mass Curse are really weak I think. Until recently I didn’t even noticed the difference between battles with our without them! Sure, it reduces damage or increase enemy’s damage and capacity to convert/paralyze/etc. you. But when you come with several T3, high def/high res heroes, regrowth units, etc. you will anyway strike big blows and kill the units you attack in 1 turn anyway.
    Legendary and Mythical sites really require battle enchantment that cause damages or really make a big difference.

    Anti-Magic Field is good (because one of the secrets of doing high level sites early is to cast combat spells wisely) but it does not impact at all the fact that you can take time for positioning and use a lot of abilities because you have time. When I’m talking about abilities, I’m talking about Touch of Faith, Awaken, Healing, etc.

    Mmh, one thing we also need to keep in mind for this balancing is that in v1.2 of the balance mod, Healing will be once per battle for heroes and leaders (and very likely twice per battle for normal units who have it). That will also hurt a lot.

    #247025

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I hate to repeat myself, but this is also a consequence of the fact that Heroes are leveling up too fast even if XP spamming is halfway kept in check.

    It’s also noteworthy that Lich King and Lost City come with a lot lower risk for Necromancer, especially after Harbingers of Death, because Reapers can’t invoke death against them and Naga Matriarchs cannot Charm them (Stiffen Legs putting the Glutton out of the equation).
    That’s why maybe Bane of the Unnatural would be an interesting spell for Lost Cities.

    Of course, all Shrines are quite good, but Guardian Angel gives a really massive edge. No matter what you do to strengthen sites, when you happen to have that one in reach, you’ll really prepared for everything (and it also happens that you have two or even more Shrines in easy reach). Making the sites generally harder to take would make shrines even more important, and since their placement is purely random …

    #247026

    ezysquire
    Member

    do you think it is normal that Dungeon can be done on turn 2 (or turn 4 if it’s far from your throne) on Strong Defender and Weak starting army?

    I am no elite player, nor noob – just somewhere in the middle, but I certainly have never cleared a dungeon on turn 2! Is there a thread that describes how this can be done? Particularly given the strong defender and weak starting army twist?
    Are exploits being used to achieve such feats? Or is it just a bit of stiffen limbs or slayers doubt? If no thread on how to do this, is it possible to share a brief description of the tactics? And is this something only achievable by certain race/class combinations or is it something many mixes could pull off?

    Because currently average players cannot take high level sites early anyway. After the changes, they will still not be able to take them, but top players won’t either.

    This would be absolutely true I agree. Any increase to the difficulty of the site though will also delay an average player in trying to clear it.
    So let’s say a top player may have to wait 10 more turns to clear a site, how can you be sure that there will be a net gain for the average player who might also need 10 more turns to prepare before attempting to clear it?
    Is it possible that the change makes it so hard for the average player that it might even make the balance worse with them needing 15 more turns to the pro’s 10?
    A tough line to walk to achieve a net gain for the average player for sure.

    My aim is that the power surge from producing units more or less come at the same time as the power surge for focusing on making a “stack of death”. Right now, the latter comes several turns before the former.

    A worthwhile goal. Have you thought about approaching this from a buff the cities end as opposed to a nerf the heroes direction?
    Is it possible to introduce a hammer overflow carryover mechanic in city production? That could go some way to achieving this balance with greatly improved city production output, including the chance to produce multiple units in a single turn.

    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by  ezysquire.
    #247031

    Hiliadan
    Member

    @jj: yes you’re right about heroes leveling. I proposed to increase the level ladder for them, based on your idea (but with a different slope).

    @ezysquire: for Dungeon, you need to play Necro, otherwise I think it’s too difficult on turn 2, but the idea is the same: you can do Dungeons pretty quickly. If you’re Necro, use Stiffen Limb 2 to 4 times to slow down the Manticores and Phalanxes. Split them with a cadaver that you send at the other side (so you need to do at least 1 fight before to have at least 1 cadaver) and try to have a group of 2 and a group of 4. Then you take down the group of 2 pretty easily. Then you split them again thanks to Stiffen Limb and the fact that they don’t move at the same speed (so you need to cast Stiffen Limb late enough). If you have a second cadaver (which you should if you do it on turn 2!), you can raise it after it’s killed and at least one unit will spend one more turn hitting it, giving you more time to kill it with ranged attacks.
    It’s difficult but do-able.

    Regarding the issue of pushing the clearing of high-level sites by 15 turns for average players and 10 turns for top players… Well, first, it’s not completely an issue: it’s normal that top players are better, right? 😛 Then, I think that is not so important because as long as the average (for tactical combat) player reach turn 30 without being whipped out by a death stack from the top player, he will have had enough time to produce (or summon) an army and then he can fight the top player more easily. Getting 2 strong items or 2 T3 or +400 research is less important by turn 30 than by turn 10. So getting it on turn 30 or turn 40 doesn’t make as much of a difference as getting it on turn 10 or on turn 20. Because if you get it on turn 10, it may win you the game.

    Regarding the possibility to boost production/summoning instead of nerfing tactical combat progress… Well, for one thing, I think it would be much more complicated to balance, it’s much more complicated to tinker with this vast aspect of the game. And also, I think most players would like games to reach the production of race T3 or even class T4 more often. In my 24 games reported on the BF, I have never seen anyone produce a T4 except Dwelling’s T4 (I saw T4 such a Dragons summoned). Of course, it depends on the settings we use but I think with our settings, we should see some if the game was balanced a bit differently.
    Production’s overflow is not possible to mod.

    #247043

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    @ Hiliadan
    The “slope” is actually still “in development” with my mod; with the last version it gets too steep at the end (and meanwhile I’ve been testing yet another one which looks promising). The lope depends of course on the XP gain as well.

    Note, that in my mod, Stiffen Limb has a duration of 3 turns only … In general, Necro is better equipped to go for big stuff, because of
    a) Stiffen Limbs (modded)
    b) better Starting Force (comes with additional cost in mod)
    c) Battle Healing (reduced to 20 in mod)

    #247057

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Yes. a) modded too, b) is going to be tackled in v1.2 probably, c) not sure, and you do not mention d) reanimation abilities, equivalent to extra healing, e) additional targets through cadavers brought from other battles.

    EDIT: but we’re deviating from the original topic

    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by  Hiliadan.
    #247060

    cbower
    Member

    Well the way I do most mythical and the like early is all about splitting and positioning and maybe some spells. Honestly if you want to make it difficult the random damage spells make the most difference. Through splits, positioning, and spells you can negate some of the impact of mass bless and so on. Wizard Towers are dangerous early because you take damage every turn you try to set it up. Low level units get eaten alive by prismatic spire. So it makes it less profitable to take your time. I think random damage spells like this will have and impact.

    Pandemonium and Choas Rift are huge spells. That would make site not workable without a disjuncting it or serious units. This is basically going to remove these sites for most every game.

    To @ezysquire, I have seen alot of games where I go deep into opponents territory mid to late game and they have not cleared their mythical sites. Some of these sites are already off players radars for the most part. I am in a game right now with a very decent player who waited 50+ turns to start doing mythical sites. He had waited until he was producing t4 units. He knows what he is dong but he is not clearing specialist. The average player does not snowball at the same pace, and they wait until they are able to produce units that can take the fight. @ezysquire you are NOT an average player, you do level and snowball. From what I can tell in our game you play the clearing game at a high level, and are frustratingly patient in you attacks. Seriously just make a mistake already :P. These changes are good for the average player. They will hurt you, myself, and others. We will have to adjust to a more production based game. The point is to give people who do not clear at a high level but do understand the game well, a chance to play. Currently unless it is a FFA with plenty of time left alone, these player do not get a chance to play because they get rolled over by another’s snowball.

    #247067

    ezysquire
    Member

    Seriously just make a mistake already :P.

    @cbower ha! it is only a matter of time.

    I’m quite new to trying to clear big sites early on and have found that much of it is about finding the courage to try.
    With high stakes at trying in PBEM, I worry that for new and average players putting tough high damage spells in play as enchantments will only make the sites more intimidating and off-putting for the unsure or average player.
    So, I had a thought. What could help teach players to have the courage to try?
    Perhaps some of the visit structures could also get damage spell buffs (like the arctic one) and perhaps an upgrade to defenders (is that mod possible?), so that players can learn to take on more powerful sites with the safety net of being able to field more than six units.
    This could be applied to Flowrock Quarry and Mercenary Camps and the like also.
    I’m no expert in this and perhaps a change like this have some adverse effects and is a bad idea; I don’t know. I just try to bring a newer and learning player’s perspective to this topic.
    At the end of the day, if elite players are clearing sites on turn 5, 10 or after changes at turn 20, then this will still be too soon for the average player who waits for turn 50 with, or without changes.

    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by  ezysquire.
    #247069

    ezysquire
    Member

    Sorry for double-post, but I had another thought. Perhaps a different approach to level the playing field is not about site difficulty, but the reward.
    Is it possible for the reward for clearing a site could change depending on what turn it happens?
    If yes, then rewards could be set to improve as the game progresses so that someone who clears a site early, while gaining the xp for the kills, will not get such great items/gold/etc as someone who waits until turn 50.
    This means elite players must choose between early xp with a poor reward and a great reward in the late game.
    The average player would not get this choice as they are unable to clear the site early – but they at least will not be punished by an elite player’s early snowball on the back of an early research boost or gold etc from clearing a big site early.
    If everyone waits till turn 40 then everyone gets the same reward :p

    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by  ezysquire.
    #247160

    I’m pretty sure cbower was referring to me as the player that mostly knew what he was doing, but didn’t clear high-level sites until getting T4 units. I know that exploiting tactical combat is my weakest area, and that I’m not so good at judging when I should be attacking sites. I’ve been getting better at it though. I’m not bad at tactical combat itself, so my advice for newer players to improve in this area is to just attack before you think you are ready. You will lose a lot initially, but you’ll also start to see just how easy it is to actually clear a lot of sites.

    In the game with cbower, that was actually the first time I had ever attacked a legendary or mythic site (whatever the higher level one is; I can’t remember the difference between these two,) and I was expecting them to be a lot harder than they actually were.

    On another note, since most PBEM multi-player balance seems to be based around tactical combat against the AI, my inability to abuse this is precisely why I don’t feel comfortable contributing to balance discussions. I do have a few things I feel safe saying though.

    First, I don’t see it as inherently bad that some sites don’t have field enchantments. It makes a lower-level player feel safer when clearing these sites, since they will be easier to deal with. I do think that higher-level sites should all have fairly powerful enchantments though, both to challenge players when clearing them, and to provide some tactical considerations and variety. Needing a more specific composition to clear a high-level site without losses makes for a more developed strategic game, since that then becomes another consideration when assembling your army.

    I’m also opposed to sites getting better rewards over time. This seems unintuitive and pushes the game to be more passive, when I think that it’s actually one of the strengths of this series that it is so active right from turn 1. Also, I’m not sure that such a change would really have as much of an effect on helping weaker players as you’d initially think. What I see happening in this scenario is the better player clearing his sites, invading the worse player, and then clearing that player’s sites for higher rewards. I’ve seen other players play before in big multi-player games, and when invading them many of the less-skilled players inevitably have uncleared sites everywhere still. So, the suggestion to increase site rewards over time would actually just further benefit the stronger players in my opinion.

    #247616

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Is it possible for the reward for clearing a site could change depending on what turn it happens?

    I think it would be quite complicated to implement, knowing that it is apparently very hard to tinker with rewards in the first place (the way rewards are calculated, especially their value in gold, seems quite complicated).

    I still believe, as did cbower, that it is necessary to add direct damage to all Legendary and Mythical sites, otherwise, it doesn’t change anything for top players. Sadism in particular would not change much because you DO NOT lose any unit if you want to.
    So here is a list of proposals (I haven’t added them in the summary table yet):
    GC24 Dungeon’s battle enchantment is Suffocating Sadism. Every turn, one enemy unit is hit by 15 physical damage, Undead, Machine, Elemental and Incorporeal are immune. Every time an enemy dies, all defenders of the Dungeon get +100 Morale and +1 melee strength.
    GC25 Earth Elemental cannot be obtained as a reward any more in the Forbidden Sanctum
    GC26 Forbidden Sanctum’s batte enchantment is Mass Bless / Mass Curse and Shock Missile cast every turn on a random enemy unit
    GC27 Sunken City’s battle enchantment is Frost Missile (cast every turn on an enemy unit)
    GC28 Sphynx Temple’s Greater Immolation affects 2 enemy units every round (was 1)
    GC29 Hall of the Forefather’s battle enchantment is Vengeful Totem: enemy units are affected by Glacial Totem and one enemy unit is hit by Vengeful Frost every turn
    GC30 Ziggurath’s battle enchantment is Filth Pith
    GC31 Lost City’s battle enchantment is Bell Tower
    GC32 Castle of the Lich King’s Batte Enchantment is Lich King’s Undying Army: all defenders have Undying and enemy units get 20% Spirit Weakness.

    I think we need to continue the brainstorm here but time is limited for v1.2 (it will still be time to adjust later on) as I’d like to finalize the changelog maximum by the end of the month and if possible earlier.

    #247620

    Campaigner
    Member

    Is there a video of when someone does high lvl sites? Cause the only thing I can think about is to send a sacrifice low lvl unit away to draw away half the guardians and try and gang up on one enemy at a time.

    #247756

    xlnt
    Member

    Take a dungeon early on
    my thread from back in the days

    I’ll never post video – i can explain with details – no problem. I hate the amount of lazy learning with video clips nowadays (:

    Ask the questions, but please – try it first (; I mean – try 100 battles in a dungeon or at least 10

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by  xlnt.
    #250312

    Hiliadan
    Member

    I would like to confirm how rewards for sites work:
    – a site has a list of possible rewards: item reward sets, techs, mana, gold
    – a site has a value in gold (Sale Gold Cap)
    – items, techs, mana and gold has a gold equivalent. For items, it’s based on its rarity (common, strong, etc.) which has itself a gold/mana equivalent. For techs, how does it work? And 1 mana = 1 gold?
    – the reward is thus: the items and/or techs and/or mana + an amount of gold equal to [value of the site] – [sum of gold value of all the other rewards]. Am I correct?
    – the alternative reward, in gold, is equal to [value of the site]
    – the value of the site is multiplied by a factor depending on the Defenders’ strength. What is the factor? Does it multiply the alternative value of the site (that you get if you refuse the rewards) or the value of the site that determines how much gold you get if you choose the reward? I think it’s the 2nd but then what I wrote above is incorrect

    If I am right about the gold value of items, then classifying items correctly is very important as it determines the strength of items you’ll get in a given site. E.g. if a site has a Sale Gold Cap of 100, it cannot yield a Legendary item even if it is in the reward set because Legendary items have a value of 90 gold, 23 mana.

    It also means we can balance site by reducing (or increasing) their Sale Gold Cap.

    What are the other factors associated to sites in the mod? Excess Reward Scale? What’s this?

    #250314

    Gloweye
    Member

    1.) Yes.
    2.) Yes, this is a max value. Seperate parameter.
    3.) Don’t know how the values are established, but that’s the idea. I know mana and knowledge can be converted for any ratio the modder chooses.

    The reward starts as an abstract value, which just so happens to be gold. This value is multiplied by the Site Defenders strength map option(I believe its 1/1.5/2 for Normal, Strong Very Strong, but not sure.). A random modifier of like 20% or something is applied to this. Then, a maximum of 2 Items/Spells/Units are picked, and their value subtracted from the reward value. The remainder is converted to either Mana, Knowledge or Gold and awarded, and the modder can just pick one of them(Excess Reward Scale is a multiplier here). There is a bias for more valuable rewards, which is why you get T3’s from dungeons that have normal reward values, while there’s also T2’s in the set.

    Of course, the explorer can choose to convert it all to gold, at like a 20% penalty and subject to another cap.

    #250315

    Zaskow
    Member

    – items, techs, mana and gold has a gold equivalent. For items, it’s based on its rarity (common, strong, etc.) which has itself a gold/mana equivalent. For techs, how does it work? And 1 mana = 1 gold?

    From that I’ve seen I think that gold equivalent for items isn’t based on rarity. Every item has defined price in items.rpk.

    For techs, how does it work?

    Very simple. Some structures has certain list of available skills.

    #252595

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Some ideas for when we come back to this topic:
    – Sunken City, Forbidden Sanctum and Wizard Tower Ruins all give high-level spells, they need a good battle enchantment to defend them. Wizard Tower already has one. The two other need damage dealing battle enchantments.
    – for other sites, we probably need to divide by 2 the value of their rewards.
    – before that, we also need to make sure the reward sets are appropriate. For instance Sanctum, Sunken City and Wizard Tower should not give “Killer Instinct” as it’s shit compared to “Summon Obsidian Dragon”. The item sets need to be reviewed, etc.

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