Bone Collectors & collect bones

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Bone Collectors & collect bones

This topic contains 10 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  Jolly Joker 4 years, 7 months ago.

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  • #240905

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Maybe it’s me who doesn’t know how to counter it, but I have the feeling that Bone Collectors, and especially their ability Collect bones, is currently too strong!
    I faced them very rarely but each time, it was very difficult, and the latest time, in my current match against Lightform for the PBEM tournament, the Bone Collector reached 320 HP, 27 resistance and something like 30-40 physical damage…. How can you possibly fight such a monstrosity? It was on a 18 vs 11 fight (he had 11 units and obviously he won).

    Apart from my specific fight mentioned above, I think there is something wrong with the Bone Collector and something wrong with Collect Bones.

    First about the Bone Collector (in combination to the current Collect Bone) itself, having Killing momentum + Collect bone means he can kill a unit, eat it and then go kill another one. I guess it’s what the dev wanted but I find it a bit strong for a combat unit to be able to kill 2 units in one round and heal 20 HP at the same time…
    The Bone Collector is reinforced so it is hard to kill it with ranged physical damage. But with the current Collect Bones, he increase its resistance, so it can become impossible to kill it with ranged elemental damage too.

    Then about Collect Bones… when you’re on a big battle, this ability is way too OP.
    Sure, you could counter it with Healing Essence (http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Healing_Essence) but that’s a Master specialization tier IV spell….
    Getting +20 total HP AND 20 HP healing AND +2 damage AND +1 res, seriously? And you can stack it?? And it does not require any action point???
    Just getting +20 HP and healing would be OP in itself. Getting the +1 res is ridiculous, and the +2 damage is very strong.
    When in auto, in PBEM, there is nothing you can do against a 200 HP, 30 damage, 20 resistance unit which heals itself each time it kills one of your unit. And which in addition is fearsome (at gold but not too hard to get)!

    Possible fixes:
    – require 2 or 3 action points for collect bone or make it end the turn of the unit (so that you cannot use Killing momentum to collect and then kill another unit)
    – Collect Bones: only +10 HP? no boost to resistance. Give +5% spirit weakness each time?
    – remove Killing momentum?

    #240908

    Zaskow
    Member

    OPness of Bone collector is well-known issue. However, Necro hasn’t any decent ‘tank’ except Collector so nerfing them could cause some bigger problems.

    #240910

    Gloweye
    Member

    It’s a fairly unique unit. Also, it’s not always that good – and it’s pretty expensive if it doesn’t get rolling.

    It’s also got a rather unique place in the necro line-up.

    But perhaps I need some more experience with them in order to make a good argument. I rarely build them, since I generally go right ahead for the Deathbringers if I’m there already.

    I once faced one in the campaign I had some trouble with, but in the end I just treated it like you treat a T4 – flank and drain AP. Makes it impossible to heal for it.

    As for potential changes, I believe you can cap the number of stacks. Capping it at like 3 stacks should keep it from getting that out of hand, while also keeping the healing working.

    #240911

    Zaskow
    Member

    It’s a fairly unique unit. Also, it’s not always that good – and it’s pretty expensive if it doesn’t get rolling.

    180 gold – this is comparable with any racial T3s.

    since I generally go right ahead for the Deathbringers if I’m there already.

    Big mistake. DBs are very mediocre as troopers. They’re mostly units for farming neutrals.

    #240912

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    In my Mod which I will write a changes log for, I simply set Collect Bones on a 2-turn cooldown. This makes chain-collecting impossible and opponents time to take care of the threat. In a standard fight, Bone Collectors have a lot of “competition” what to do with Cadavers, and since all advantages gained are limited to the battle, it’s a pretty standard thing. The Kicker in a larger, especially in a siege battle is, that the Bone Collector is able to soak up losses to keep going, should a battle last. 1 turn Cooldown may be enough, but I’m going to try it with 2.

    Keep in mind that Necro has a lot of tools to their disposal – they might also cast Raise Corpses, for example, which means, in a big battle, say 18 vs. 18, once you have enough dead units in the ranks of opponents, raising them might decide the battle as well, since the Cadavers will disrupt opponent’s formation (any may disable shooters).

    Playing against a Necro, your best bet is – hiring a Necro yourself and leveling them up asap, because it allows you to counter the cadaver deal. Corpus Furia, cast yourself, will destroy all Cadavers, for example. If you can get Necromantic Aura, you may take Control of opponent’s units and so on.

    In PBEM you are of course dependent on how the AI plays it. If Collect Bones is on a cooldown, the AI cannot abuse it, obviously.

    I’m going to “announce” the Mod, soon, with a changelog and all. Testing takes a lot of time, since a lot of the changes affect midgame end endgame.

    #240915

    Zaskow
    Member

    In my Mod which I will write a changes log for, I simply set Collect Bones on a 2-turn cooldown.

    I’ll set on 1 turn cooldown probably.

    Playing against a Necro, your best bet is – hiring a Necro yourself and leveling them up asap, because it allows you to counter the cadaver deal. Corpus Furia, cast yourself, will destroy all Cadavers, for example. If you can get Necromantic Aura, you may take Control of opponent’s units and so on.

    In live MP most players doesn’t rely on cadavers much. Corpus Furia is high risky against your own non-undead troops.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 7 months ago by  Zaskow.
    #240918

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    In my Mod which I will write a changes log for, I simply set Collect Bones on a 2-turn cooldown.

    I’ll set on 1 turn cooldown probably.

    I’ve written in my notes that 1 turn may already be enough – matter of testing, and if you test with 1 turn, we are more likely to find out what is right. 🙂

    Playing against a Necro, your best bet is – hiring a Necro yourself and leveling them up asap, because it allows you to counter the cadaver deal. Corpus Furia, cast yourself, will destroy all Cadavers, for example. If you can get Necromantic Aura, you may take Control of opponent’s units and so on.

    In live MP most players doesn’t rely on cadavers much. Corpus Furia is high risky against your own non-undead troops.
    [/quote]Well, it depends. Live MP’s climax should be PvP battle, and facing a Necro always comes with additional factors, because the fallen units are important. Whether for Bone Collectors, whether with Corpus Furia, or Raise Corpses – the dead bodies are kind of a threat, and it obviously pays to have ways to not look helpless. A Necromancer with you can, at the very least raise Cadavers, diminishing the playing field of the opponent. Of course – Corpus Furia IS dangerous, but if it*s your turn, you can move everyone into safety and simply detonate them, annihilating them as a threat.

    It’s generally difficult to beat Necro in a roughly equal battle, because they have so much healing and reanimating powers.

    #240920

    Zaskow
    Member

    It’s generally difficult to beat Necro in a roughly equal battle, because they have so much healing

    In version before 1.703 – maybe. After massive nerf to healing – doubtfully.

    #240928

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Putting a 2 turns timer may be a good option.

    I agree that in most cases, the Bone Collector is ok. But in big battles, especially played by the AI (PBEM settings), it is really devastating.
    So if a solution can nerf it in big battles but left it untouched in other situations, that would be good. Capping the use of Collect Bones to 3 times would be great but I think it’s not possible through mods?

    #240930

    Zaskow
    Member

    Capping the use of Collect Bones to 3 times would be great but I think it’s not possible through mods?

    Nope.

    #240949

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    It’s generally difficult to beat Necro in a roughly equal battle, because they have so much healing

    In version before 1.703 – maybe. After massive nerf to healing – doubtfully.

    Before 1.703 it was more or less impossible (after Healers of the Dead). Now? Depends on your army composition. After Healers ALL supports have Heal Undead – which includes Frostling Queens. All Reanimators get Lesser Reanimate which helps themselves and all supports (except Frostling Queen). All Necro heroes are L7 EASILY after Healers of the Dead, so they have lesser and Greater Reanimate Dead.
    Typical Necro stack has: 1 Hero, 1 Banshee, 1 Reanimator, 1 Support (different damage channel); the other 2 units are 2 of (in no order) racial T3, racial T2 Cav, Bone Collector, Death Bringer. May vary of course. When you play Elven Necro, a focus chamber produced Longbowman is outrageously powerful with RG. But that just underlines the point:

    Heal Undead and Lesser Reanimate makes the T1 and T2 units so much better – and some of them are not bad to begin with. I mean – think about a Tigran Mystic. Fire/Spirit damage; can change into a Beast (with Pounce), can be Healed; can Heal itself; can be Lesser Reanimated by Hero and Reanimator. That’s just massive.
    You see how they cover each other with Healings and Reanimations, and how you can all dead use immediately?
    That’s very difficult to overcome. I think Bane of the Unnatural is the bestyou can have, but that’s creation, which makes a lot of people cringe (not me, but still).

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