Boosting Dreadnought heroes

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Boosting Dreadnought heroes

This topic contains 40 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by  Zaskow 3 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #249897

    Hiliadan
    Member

    A poll has been launched recently on “What classes of hero do you generally refuse if they are proposed on turn 1? (because they are the worst heroes to start with)” https://www.the-battlefield.com/aow3/index.php?page=bf_poll&pollnumber=17

    Dreadnought came on top of the most refused classes of heroes. A discussion on Steam highlighted their weaknesses early game and late game, though they have nice leadership abilities.

    gladis just had an interesting idea which we subsequently improved: to give them a Leadership ability that gives Gas Mask to units in their stack: units with Gas Masks are not affected by Choking Fume, Disgusting Stench, Suffocate, Weakening Breath, Inflict Noxious Vulnerability and other similar spells/abilities. Maybe it could reduce by 50% damage by Gas Breath or even make units immune to it?

    I like it a lot, it makes Choking Fume much more interesting and can be interesting in other cases too.

    It could for instance cost 3 at level 7. That’s not exactly a top ability but still interesting.

    #249901

    Gloweye
    Member

    Weakening Breath, Inflict Noxious Vulnerability

    Why these ?

    Then again, it could be a case to make it Gas Masks: 40% Blight Protection and immune to Choking Fumes, Suffocate and Disgusting Stench.

    However, that’s kinda midgame, and IMO the only place their leadership doesn’t suck.

    Early on, how about Fire Blunderbuss ? 5 Pts at level 3 ? Probably enough to make them really interesting early on.

    Needs something for late as well…How about an upgrade just giving them 100% Fire Protection for like 4 pts ? Kind of similar to Strong Will(Theocrats get it as just an upgrade for 4 pts). And you can build around it with Mana Core.

    #249903

    Hiliadan
    Member

    About 100% Fire Protection, Lava Walking would be nice, but maybe too much.

    #249908

    gladis
    Member

    Regarding to “Gas Masks”: I made up my mind and would suggest to implement it in “Pest Control Squad”. This already is very expensive with 5 Points – I think Wizard Hunters is better due to offer +1 Resistance and cost only 4 Points! Regarding their effects, it should work only for debuffs which came affects the lung ofc. Hiliadan and I think no blight protection is needed because a mask won´t help you when you get bitten by a snake or hitten by a dart etc. Logic is always a big question though 😛

    So I would suggest to make Units with Gas Masks unaffected by:
    Choking Fume, Disgusting Stench, Suffocate.
    Weakening Breath gets inhaleted, so I think of puttig this in as well.

    In case of Gas Breath, you can argument ofc.

    I think Noxious Vulnerability works in the blood, so no change here for me.

    And I had another idea yesterday: Maybe switch the Weapon Kit (Fire Blunderbass, Throwing Net and Sabotage ability) from a spell to a touch ability? Maybe with some changes.
    And Rapid Reload could be reduced from 3 to 2 points.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 8 months ago by  gladis.
    #249910

    gladis
    Member

    Machines and maybe other units shouldn´t gain Gas Masks ofc.
    They aren´t unaffected by all the mentioned abilities as they get affected by Weakening Breath. Could this be implemented?

    #249911

    gladis
    Member

    Sry for spaming, can’t edit mit posts. I came to the conclusion that it’s unlogical that Machines get affected by weaking breath but units with masks don’t. So cancel this special ability.

    #249919
    #249935

    Fluks
    Member

    @Hilidan or someone else, can you link to the steam discussion or give a short wrap up why dreadnought is bad early and late? I personally think Dreadnought heroes are awesome and always take them when I get them… But then I’m no hardcore competitive player. But how can a Hero with guardian flame, morale boost, wizard hunters, good melee stats and musket shot be bad?

    #249936

    Hiliadan
    Member

    The Steam discussion is here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/226840/discussions/0/142261352659725694/
    I was myself a bit surprised so many people dislike Dreadnought heroes. But it’s true that they don’t have any late game skills. Compare to Arch Druid with Regrowth or Call Lightning and Theo with Divine Justicar, or Sorcerer and Master of Illusions… and Dreadnought appear pretty bad for late game.

    #249937

    Fluks
    Member

    Thanks! Seems mostly like a playstyle thing. I do autocombat against indys so my heroes don’t level so fast anyway. Probably thats why I’m quite fine with dreads, and somewhat dislike necros. While people that finetune everything and make sure they have their divine justiciars stack by turn 10 are unhappy with dread 🙂

    #249940

    Griffith
    Member

    Maybe people dislike dreadnought heroes, cause they find their abilities somewhat boring. But as group leaders they’re one of the best out there. Fire protection bonus is especially important in competitive games, as its commonly used element. Also dreadnought has some surprisingly good spells.

    #250475

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Ideas discussed with BBB today:
    -leadership ability to give Lava Walking
    – a change to Bomb Squad to give “Bomber” or whatever name for the ability to sacrifice your unit to cause huge damage (but I fear the AI will use it very badly)
    – partly transform your units into machine with a leadership ability (more HP, Tireless, …)
    – ride Golems (!) leadership ability
    – leadership ability giving a nerfed version of Force Field as an ability that can be activated OR give several choices of leadership ability, one for each element (Fire, Shock, etc.), but they are mutually exclusive so you can get only 1 element.

    #250476

    Yes, it was a good chat :).

    Dreadnought just feels somewhat clunky to play, and imho massed machines is a bit of a trap. The party boosts are quite good though. In my current game however, my Dread leader got to lvl 15 and there was nothing interesting for him to pick. A lvl 15 Sorceror has mass illusionist, projectile reflection, inflict stun, inflict spirit breaking all available by that point. A Theocrat gets divine Justicars about then iirc…

    Dread could also get a party ability that lets all units in the party shoot or something. There is a spell that allows targeted infantry or Pike unit to gain sabotage and blunderbuss or something iirc.

    #250478

    Zaskow
    Member

    -leadership ability to give Lava Walking

    Mostly useless.

    – a change to Bomb Squad to give “Bomber” or whatever name for the ability to sacrifice your unit to cause huge damage (but I fear the AI will use it very badly)

    Yep, AI is problem.

    – partly transform your units into machine with a leadership ability (more HP, Tireless, …)

    Don’t know…

    – ride Golems (!) leadership ability

    Visual problems.

    – leadership ability giving a nerfed version of Force Field as an ability that can be activated OR give several choices of leadership ability, one for each element (Fire, Shock, etc.), but they are mutually exclusive so you can get only 1 element.

    Looks really interesting. And real.

    #250483

    Hiliadan wrote:
    – ride Golems (!) leadership ability
    Visual problems.

    Well you could just have them “transform” into Golems for the duration of battle.

    Hiliadan wrote:
    – partly transform your units into machine with a leadership ability (more HP, Tireless, …)
    Don’t know…

    Was my idea, and don’t like it much myself either. Feels very Necromancer like to me.

    Hiliadan wrote:
    – leadership ability giving a nerfed version of Force Field as an ability that can be activated OR give several choices of leadership ability, one for each element (Fire, Shock, etc.), but they are mutually exclusive so you can get only 1 element.
    Looks really interesting. And real.

    And hopefully simple enough for the AI to use it.

    #250694

    Hiliadan
    Member

    The answer “Make all heroes and their abilities more interesting (e.g. boost Dreadnought’s late game abilities) ” is #2 most voted in the poll about the directions the balance mod should take in the coming months https://www.the-battlefield.com/aow3/index.php?page=bf_poll&pollnumber=18 so this will probably the first topic we tackle (as the #1 is newer and will require more time to brainstorm). So anyone has any other new ideas to boost Dreadnought’s abilities?

    I’ll open another topic about other heroes later.

    #250788

    gladis
    Member

    add machines to sites on land (e.g. Golems on mines or Magma forges) and made them accessable to repair by the DN-spell after you killed them
    add a leader ability to bestow +1 Vision range or even truw sight for all Units in the party

    #250814

    Griffith
    Member

    If one really wanted to give dreadnought some late game ability, maybe I’d give it some lesser version of flame throwing or fire mortar at level 11+. That seems to make some thematic sense, and would be plenty powerful. Although not sure if it really needs it, dreadnoughts are pretty good heroes alrdy in my books.

    Or could give some builder options (roads, watchtower or fortress), those also would make sense. If it could get even build roads at like level 11+, you wouldn’t really need expander specialization so much anymore, which could be interesting twist. Cause atm, it seems to me that dread player needs rugged pioneers and advanced logistics to be truly formidable.

    I wouldn’t give it more leadership abilities though, he alrdy has enough of those.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by  Griffith.
    #251129

    Ludomancer
    Member

    I have a few suggestions:

    * Gunpowder Maker (passive): While this hero is the leader of the army, all Mounted units gain Fire Pistol and all irregulars gain Fire Blunderbuss.
    * Fire Mortar (attack): The usual Fire Mortar skill. Suggest 7 cost.
    * Shield Wall (passive): While this hero is the leader of the army, unit with Shield or Armored gain Defender and Defensive Strike.

    Ludomancer

    #251133

    Hiliadan
    Member

    I wouldn’t give it more leadership abilities though, he alrdy has enough of those.

    Yes, I broadly agree.

    Another idea for high level ability: Vigilant.

    #251187

    Zaskow
    Member

    Actually, I was thinking about some analog Divine Justicars for Dreads, but only for machines.
    Also Maintenance ability should be added for Dread too.

    #251431

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Another idea: Road destruction and even at level 13, structure destruction.
    Road destruction would allow the Dread hero/leader to remove Roads from the strategic map and replace them by Barren land, e.g. for a cost of 5 gold per hex.
    Structure destruction would allow to destroy sites such as Gold Mines, Haste Berries, etc. for a cost of 50 gold.

    Zaskow, do you confirm it’s modable? And is it possible to add a duration cost for Structure destruction? (e.g. you need to stay 1 turn on the hex)

    #251443

    Zaskow
    Member

    Road destruction would allow the Dread hero/leader to remove Roads from the strategic map and replace them by Barren land, e.g. for a cost of 5 gold per hex.

    Well, it’s possible, but not in same way as building roads, for example. Only way to destroy roads I saw in Warped Domain spell and it’s free ability. I need experiments to say what I can or no.

    Structure destruction would allow to destroy sites such as Gold Mines, Haste Berries, etc. for a cost of 50 gold.

    Zaskow, do you confirm it’s modable? And is it possible to add a duration cost for Structure destruction? (e.g. you need to stay 1 turn on the hex)

    No it’s not. Possibility to destroy building or no is defined in structures strings.

    #251446

    Nerdfish
    Member

    Dread heroes are not competitive because they don’t get a good high level ability. So how about this instead of the bomb squad:

    Tank Commander – 10 Skill Pts @ Level 12
    Replace the hero’s base stats, abilities and model with that of a Flame Tank (60HP, 12Def, 28 Moves, Machine, Flame throwing but no Melee attack). The hero retain 15 Base CP and all hero upgrades, as well as all stats and skills from equipment.
    Emergency Repair and Repair machines can now be cast on self.

    You don’t have to worry about it being a downgrade since at this point The hero is likely capable of emergency repair. If not you can give them a repair machine item from the forge. With the right gear (static shield ?) such a hero can mow down small armies.

    They are also far from invincible. Unlike lifedrain heroes they can’t attack AND repair themselves on the same turn. They are also likely to draw a lot of attention because they are both a HERO and a ranged unit doing Elemental AOE damage.

    Makes sense in the lore too, why wouldn’t a harbinger of technology bring their own tank ?

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by  Nerdfish.
    #251617

    Hiliadan
    Member

    The idea of the Tank Commander might be interesting but not sure if it would be possible to mod in terms of models for the hero.

    A few ideas, inspired by Eomolch’s Hero mods where you can transform some units into Monks in the battlefield, giving them abilities they keep on the strategic map:
    – Replace Tree Crusher by “Woodcutter toolkit”: an active ability that can be used once per battle and which gives the old Tree Crusher ability to one allied unit (it keeps it for ever on the strategic map). Woodcutter toolkit cannot be used by the AI. That would allow to selectively give Tree Crusher to a few units who would then be tasked with cutting the annoying woods.
    – Replace Bomb Squad by “Bomb toolkit”: an active ability that can be used once per battle and which gives Explosive Death (until the end of battle) to its allied target. Now you can selectively create suicide bombers (1 per battle).
    – New lvl 11 ability: “Builder toolkit”: an active ability that can be used once per battle and which gives Build Watch Tower to one allied unit (it keeps them for ever on the strategic map). Might be a bit strong, so we could also give that unit -3 def, -2 res, remove melee attack, but then we would need to prevent the AI from using that ability.

    #252219

    gladis
    Member

    maybe add flame throwing ability to the party buff “Bomb Squad. So all Units get flame throwers. Well, maybe not for machines (except Golems). Would be really nice to have flame throwing Golems 😀

    #252240

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Summary of the proposals:
    D1. Gas Mask: units in the stack led by this unit are immune to Choking Fume, Disgusting Stench, Suffocate and Weakening Breath. They also suffer 50% less damage from Gas Breath. Undead, Elemental, Machines and Incorporeal are not affected. Gas Mask can be chosen at level 7 for 3 points.
    D2. (alternative) Gas Masks: units in the stack led by this unit get 40% Blight Protection and immune to Choking Fumes, Suffocate and Disgusting Stench. Undead, Elemental, Machines and Incorporeal are not affected. Gas Mask can be chosen at level 7 for 3 points.
    D3. Dreadnought heroes can choose Fire Blunderbuss for 5 points at level 3.
    D4. Dreadnought heroes can choose Lava Walking for 4 points at level 9, it also gives them 100% Fire Protection.
    D5. Weapon Kit is available as a Once per battle touch ability for 4 points at level 5 for Dreadnought heroes (unchanged for Leader).
    D6. Dreadnought heroes can choose Lava Walkers for 5 points at level 11: Units led by this hero have Lava Walking.
    D7: Bomb Squad gives “Bomber” (or whatever name) to units in the stack led by this hero: units with bomber can sacrifice themselves to cause 10 physical damage and 10 fire damage to units adjacent to them.
    D8: Dreadnought heroes can choose Mechanisation for 6 points at level 11: Units led by this hero are Machine, have Tireless and +5 HP.
    D9: Dreadnought heroes can choose Personal Golem at level 11 for 5 points to ride a Golem (could be made a leadership ability too): they gain Machine, Wall Crushing, Demolisher, Tireless, Reinforced, 40% shock weakness.
    D10: Dreadnought heroes can choose Force Field Generator Gear for 7 points at level 13: Units led by this hero get Force Field Generator: self-buff ability that can be used Once per battle for no action point and gives 40% fire, 40% frost and 40% shock protection for 3 turns.
    D11 (alternative): Dreadnought heroes can choose any of 5 elemental Force Field Generator Gear for 4 points at level 13: Units led by this hero get [Element] Force Field Generator: self-buff ability that can be used Once per battle for no action point and gives 40% [element] protection for 3 turns. The 5 abilities are mutually exclusive so only one can be chosen. Elements include: Fire, Frost, Shock, Blight, Spirit.
    D12: Dreadnought heroes can choose Flame Throwing for 6 points at level 13
    D13 (alternative): Dreadnought heroes can choose Fire Mortar for 8 points at level 13
    D14: Dreadnought heroes can choose Shield Wall for 5 points at level 13: Units with Shield or Armored led by this hero get Defender and Defensive Strike.
    D15: Dreadnought heroes can choose Vigilant at level 11 for 5 points.
    D16: Dreadnought heroes can choose Road destruction at level 11 for 4 points.
    D17: Tree Crusher is replaced by “Woodcutter toolkit”: an active ability that can be used once per battle and which gives the old Tree Crusher ability to one allied unit (it keeps it for ever on the strategic map). Woodcutter toolkit cannot be used by the AI.
    D18: Bomb Squad is replaced by “Bomb toolkit”: an active ability that can be used once per battle and which gives Explosive Death (until the end of battle) to its allied target.
    D19: Dreadnought heroes can choose Builder Toolkit for 4 points at level 11: touch ability that can be used once per battle and which gives Build Watch Tower to one allied unit (it keeps it for ever on the strategic map).
    [Might be a bit strong, so we could also give that unit -3 def, -2 res, remove melee attack, but then we would need to prevent the AI from using that ability]
    D20: Bomb Squad gives Fire Spit to units it affects.

    Personally, I’m in favour of: D6, D15, D17, D18, D19.

    And I think we should not implement: D3, D14.

    If we do that, Dread would have truly good high-level abilities with the Wood Cutter, Bomb Toolkit, party Lava Walking, Vigilant, the possibility to both build roads (through Engineers) and Watch Towers (through Builder Toolkit). It would not work very well for live MP but well… looks like we can’t easily converge between live MP and other modes anyway.

    #252243

    marcuspers1
    Member

    Personally I like D2 (less situational than D1) but for 5-8p, 3 is way too low.
    D3 is also a good and obvious one. Simple 🙂
    D4 is interesting, but I would suggest increase the cost, maybe 6?
    D6 I would assume they also get 100% fire res? Then that’s an ultimate skill, maybe increase cost to 10-15p
    D9 is a fun skill, but I would make it “transform to a golem” so you can choose what is best time to transform into the golem
    Im also for D10, this is a real good idea
    D15 for, but increase cost
    I would also like to test D19, but might be too good

    Against D8 is extremely dangerous, imagine a pikeman machine, with first strike, tireless etc

    The rest i’m indifferent for.

    #252245

    HellBrick
    Moderator

    D1-D2 (Gas masks) are somewhat situational, but nice. I’d prefer D2, but for 5 UP (since other +40% resistance abilities cost 4 UP).

    D4 (Lava walker for the hero) probably won’t make a big difference, but will allow removing annoying scouts from lava, which is nice.

    D6 (Lava walking for the whole stack) is going to be incredibly annoying, almost turning dreadnought into an UG-specific sorcerer =) I’d say let’s give it a shot for 10 UP: while it’s not quite Master illusionist, it’s still a very strong skill.

    D7 (Self-destruct for the Bomb squad): definitely like it, I’ve been thinking the ability to self-destruct on purpose was missing for quite some time.

    D8 (Mechanization): against, I find the concept weird and the fact that Dreadnought suddenly becomes a great stack healer at level 11 not really fitting the class. I think it would make more sense as a low-level empire upgrade that turns Engineers and Musketeers into machines with Tireless. And/or make it a once-per-battle touch ability that turns any unit into a tireless machine until the end of battle (this way you can probably add another bonuses/weaknesses to the mix, similar to the personal golem).

    D9 (Personal golem): for as long as it stays personal, making it a leadership ability invokes the same problems as Mechanization.

    D10-D11 (Force field generator): for, prefer D10.

    D14: no for affecting units with Shield and giving Defensive strike, yes for affecting Armored units and giving them Defender only (and maybe +1 def).

    D16: probably won’t really matter, but why not.

    D5 (Weapon kit touch ability): I don’t see the point, there’s already a spell that can be casted multiple time based on hero’s CP, there’s no need to add an ability for this.

    D15: against, I don’t see what this ability has to do with Dreadnought.

    D17: against, that sounds like a hack that would be better off being a Dreadnought skill/spell that gives Tree crusher to some unit type (machines?).

    D19: against, for similar reasons.

    D18: against, I prefer original Bomb squad, it’s more inconvenient to the opponent.

    I don’t care one way or another about D3, D12, D13 and D20.

    #252248

    gladis
    Member

    The costs could be discussed later I think.

    D1. For. I would add it to Pest Control Squad though.
    D2. For (rather D1 because I think they have already enough leadership skills) I wanted a synergy with the spell Choking Fumes in the 1st place. Another 40% protection is not really needed but would make some sense ofc.
    D3. Against
    D4. For
    D5. Against (too strong)
    D6. Strictly Against. If the Heroe dies in combat at lava, all units will die. The same if you move him by accident on the strategic map out of the stack or the leadership the stack changes because the 2nd heroe has a leadership skill added or you move with another heroe or your leader to this stack. Too risky for me.
    D7: For (you forgot to write that this ability replaces Bomb Squad?!)
    D8: Against, too strong
    D9: More info please: Ability intactical battle like Dire Pantehr for Tigran Supports? How much MP? And what about the mount you are riding on?
    D10: Against, too strong
    D11 (alternative): Agaisnt
    D12: Dreadnought For but + Explosive Death
    D13 (alternative): Against
    D14: Against. Should be rather a skill for WL Heroes who have no good leadership abilities except Blood Brothers
    D15: Against
    D16: Against. They should use roads for their tanks, not destroy them
    D17: Against. It would be spamed. And it could be used to gain a lot of gold if you do terraforming and crush the trees on the next turn. Maybe remove the gold bouns, at least for that ability. Then it could be ok.
    D18: For, rather than D7, should be named D7a 😛 I would like to add bestow Strong Will as well. Or at least Mind Control Immunity.
    D19: Unsure. If we include it, only for Engineers
    D20: Against. I think it´s too strong (like my fire breath ofc) Would be nice to have though 😛

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by  gladis.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by  gladis.
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