Can someone help me understand population constraints?

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Can someone help me understand population constraints?

This topic contains 16 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  Diair 7 years, 6 months ago.

Viewing 17 posts - 1 through 17 (of 17 total)
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  • #134461

    Diair
    Member

    Allright, so I just found out about this today (slowpoke.jpeg), and at first, it made me really happy because that would mean city spamming would be much less valuable. But then I tried figuring out how it worked, and found precious little information about the thing. I was also a bit worried about reports stating that upgrading your cities with stone walls and observatories would actually hinder you as they would ultimately mess with your other cities unless you settled them far away.

    Anyway, finding nothing online, I decided to do some testing myself, and what I found was confusing at best:

    – Building two cities next to each other so their domain borders each other but does not overlap results in constrained penalties.
    – The amount of domain touching other cities domains decides how big of a penalty there is.
    – Building domain enhancing buildings (e.g. Stone Wall) in a city that results in its domain bordering the domain of another city results in constrained penalty on the second city, but not in the one where the building was built. This might be a bug. Furthermore, the city that built said building will NEVER be affected by constrain penalties from the second city, no matter how big both cities grow.
    – If two cities grow naturally to have their domains border each other, both cities will get constrained penalties. Penalties will still apply even if you later build domain upgrades in these cities.
    – If two cities both have already constructed domain upgrades, once their borders meet either through further upgrades or natural growth, neither will get any penalties. Again, this seems quite buggy.
    – If two cities’ borders will meet because they are building stone walls that finish during the same turn, neither will get any penalties.

    Sooo… Has anyone else done similar testing? Is it supposed to work this way? It seems kind of silly that I can have to metropolises right next to each other just because I built a stone wall in both of them before their borders met…

    #134462

    Harleyquin14
    Member

    What information there is in-game regarding city constraints is in the city growth entry.

    I’m not very familiar with how buildings affect the mechanic, but what you’re describing sounds like the status quo so someone else will have to explain if you are witnessing a bug that needs to be fixed.

    #134472

    Diair
    Member

    All right, I may have jumped the shark a little, completely surrounding my throne city will make it stop growing eventually… Still doesn’t explain the vast differences when building something like stone walls to meet a neighboring city’s domain instead of growing there naturally.

    It’s so frustrating not knowing how stuff work, and the Tome is very vague :\

    #134473

    Harleyquin14
    Member

    All right, I may have jumped the shark a little, completely surrounding my throne city will make it stop growing eventually… Still doesn’t explain the vast differences when building something like stone walls to meet a neighboring city’s domain instead of growing there naturally.

    It’s so frustrating not knowing how stuff work, and the Tome is very vague :\

    This is probably wrong, but I think of it this way.

    City A builds stone walls, forcing an expansion of borders allowing city A and city B to reach overlap. In City A’s viewpoint, the stone wall acts like the outer extremes of the city meaning residents don’t bother making homes in that direction. However for city B, their residents are now faced with a big wall at what was previously unrestricted access to virgin land for settlement. So city B gets the growth constraint but city A doesn’t.

    What’s wrong with the tome? It’s quite clear that cities without a minimum number of hexes in its domain will experience population constraints. At any rate, the developers are looking to freshen things up for mechanics like these which aren’t crystal clear and easy to understand.

    #134486

    Diair
    Member

    Ah…

    I think I just got an epiphany. I’ve been thinking about this the wrong way the entire time, and now I feel dumb. And I’m bad at reading, lel.

    The reason why walls and observatories don’t incur any penalties is because it has nothing to do with bordering domain at all… It’s simply the amount of hexes inside the domain that decides if a city can prosper or not – and walls do not increase the required amount of hexes needed to prosper like upgrading from a village to town would. It’s the complete opposite; supplying the city with more hexes before it would even need them. Oh lawd I feel stupid now. I blame all the old threads I read on the system where people were saying it was all about bordering domains ;_;

    Of course, if I’d actually taken my time to read the tome entry properly it’s clear as day…

    Oh well, at least I understand it now, thanks for the discussion mate.

    EDIT: Is there a way to see the amount of hexes inside of a city’s domain? Would be nice…

    #134499

    Harleyquin14
    Member

    There isn’t an easy way to counter the number of hexes inside a city’s domain. There’s a general formula that applies as the borders expand via a mathematical formula, but I’ve never really figured it out since my mathematics is poor.

    It’s not hard though, if the hexagonal domain starts to skew because of interference from other settlements or dwellings before the settlement in question has reached metropolis status then growth constraints will kick in.

    #134522

    If you just want to know how many tiles are inside a city, looking at the city’s morale will tell you that and break it down by how many tiles of each type are in the city domain that your race likes or dislikes.

    The game could certainly use a bit of a tutorial to encourage new players, though, or an advisor, or something. It could simply be done as a small campaign with the map making tools already present. Even one map might be enough to do it. I know the elven campaign is supposed to be the “new player’s campaign” but it doesn’t really focus on teaching a new player the ropes, especially someone new to the genre in general. There is also little encouragement from the menu to go to the elf campaign, no “would you like to try the tutorial?” type of message. The game is fairly complex, some hand holding and teaching aids would help a lot more people pick it up and enjoy it that otherwise might not bother climbing over that learning curve.

    #134525

    AverageBear
    Member

    Thanks @diair for the testing… good to know about stone walls and observatories!

    They had been pretty low on my building list as I normally don’t want to take a penalty on city income and growth especially in early stages .

    #134526

    Kaiosama TLJ
    Member

    Actually, Domain Radius from anything other than the city’s natural size (and by that I mean Observatories, Stone Walls, etc.) USED to count on population constrain, but patch 1.4 changed that.

    #134531

    Diair
    Member

    It’s not hard though, if the hexagonal domain starts to skew because of interference from other settlements or dwellings before the settlement in question has reached metropolis status then growth constraints will kick in.

    Not quite – a Metropolis that’s fully upgraded including palace has access to quite a few more tiles than it actually needs, you can actually build two cities very close to each other without any penalties.

    If you just want to know how many tiles are inside a city, looking at the city’s morale will tell you that and break it down by how many tiles of each type are in the city domain that your race likes or dislikes.

    Unfortunately, looking at liked and disliked tiles only gets you so far. There is after all plenty of tiles that could be neither, and thus wouldn’t show up.

    Thanks @diair for the testing… good to know about stone walls and observatories!

    They had been pretty low on my building list as I normally don’t want to take a penalty on city income and growth especially in early stages <em class=”d4pbbc-italic” i=”end”>.

    Well, hope you weren’t talking about my first post, because basically all that info is bunk and useless as I was testing under the assumption that the thing that mattered where borders clashing.

    Ironically, stone walls and the like can actually be good for your city if it’s already being constrained – the extra tiles can very well give the city the needed tiles to reach ideal growth.

    Actually, Domain Radius from anything other than the city’s natural size (and by that I mean Observatories, Stone Walls, etc.) USED to count on population constrain, but patch 1.4 changed that.

    Oh, that’s neat, glad they changed that.

    #134541

    AverageBear
    Member

    @diair

    Don’t worry, I got the workings from your conversation with @harleyquin14 though @Kaiosama cleared up my confusion of seeing different behaviors in the pre-1.4 versions. Thanks to everyone in the thread!

    #134549

    Taykor
    Member

    EDIT: Is there a way to see the amount of hexes inside of a city’s domain? Would be nice…

    By the way, a needed number of hexes for an unconstrained growth is given in the ToW. And these numbers are simply default numbers (i.e. without stone walls, observatories or Warlord upgrades) of hexes for the next city stage.
    Default domain size for a town is N(r) = 1 + 3*r*(r + 1), where r is a default domain radius (not counting central hex). So default radius for a village is 3, a village has 1+3*3*4 = 37 hexes by default. For an unconstrained growth the sum of number of hexes in domain and free hexes on the border should be N(r+1) = 61 (which is a default domain size for a town, the next stage).
    A current number of hexes inside the domain is not shown, but if a town doesn’t have a growth constraint, than the sum of number of hexes in domain and free hexes on the border is greater than needed.

    #134643

    Diair
    Member

    Just for funsies, i decided to test just how close I could put cities together without suffering any constrained penalties: https://i.imgur.com/JbQP7Jy.jpg?Array

    The cities above had to build stone walls and observatories at the village level, but this lasted them all the way up to city with no penalties. After I then built palaces in all three there were no penalties yet again.

    It is, however, quite difficult to keep these cities at cheerful happiness due to the amount of tiles lost which could otherwise have been terraformed. In fact, the leftmost and top city would have to be enchanted to keep happiness at cheerful even after being fully upgraded. It’s likely the throne city to the south would need the same if not for having the imperial palace.

    #134984

    In all my time playing I never knew cities had population constraints before. I even spent time browsing the tome of wonders, but managed to miss that. I suppose some kind of optional advisor/tutorial would really help even long term players sometimes.

    #135053

    Mezmorki
    Member

    Yes, 1.4 changed the way the +domain bonuses were working – because with the old system +domain buildings increased the chances of domain overlaps and hence constraint. You could tear down your city walls/observatories and your constraint would go down. Thankfully, that was changed.

    The revised/current system looks to see how many tiles a certain size city is expected to need (e.g. a Village to Town needs 37 open hexes). It determines the current number of open hexes based on the current domain area, PLUS 1 HEX out (the new growth area), PLUS additional domain from +domain bonuses (stone walls, etc.).

    The result is that constraint is less influential overall in many cases, but more logical in how it is handled. Here’s an example:

    1) A basic town needs 37 hexes. So to grow into a town, a village wants the potential to have 37 hexes in its domain.

    2) Add together the number of hexes in the village’s current domain (including +domain bonuses) and the number of open hexes that border the village’s domain.

    3) If that number is greater or equal to 37, then the village is not constrained.

    4) If that number is less than or equal to 19, then the village is completely constrained and cannot grow at all.

    5) Otherwise, calculate how constrained the village is based on the where that number is between 19 (100% constraint) and 37 (0% constraint). So 22 would be highly constrained, while 33 would be slightly constrained.

    #135058

    Taykor
    Member

    4) If that number is less than or equal to 19, then the village is completely constrained and cannot grow at all.

    Actually, this has been changed and now fixed value of 5% growth is minimal (instead of 0%).

    #135088

    Diair
    Member

    Actually, this has been changed and now fixed value of 5% growth is minimal (instead of 0%).

    Is this a recent change? When I was doing this testing last week, I had a city completely surrounded by other cities, and that one had 100% contraint.

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