Class units diversity

We’ve moved over to the paradox forums. Please come visit us there to discuss:
You can still read the collective wisdom - and lolz - of the community here, but posting is no longer possible.

Home Forums Update v1.5 – Open Beta Balance Class units diversity

This topic contains 125 replies, has 24 voices, and was last updated by  Zaskow 7 years, 2 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 31 through 60 (of 126 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #168780

    Thariorn
    Member

    But the main problem, how would 4 shots work with the current green-yellow-red system of movement points?

    As said, that 4-shot thing would still count as a 1-shot.
    So regardless of AP, you’d fire all shots.

    #168800

    Shockhazard
    Member

    Good suggestions, but I think Human Shamans should get bonus spirit bolts as well as having their poison bolts, kinda like how draconians work now with fire bolts. Instead of replacing like I got the impression of in your post. Now for the empty spots:
    Dreadnought
    Engineers Halfling – Good moral +200

    Theocrat
    Exalted Elf – Good Moral +200 or Projectile Resistance?

    Warlord
    Berserker Elf – Inflict Bleeding Wounds or Projectile Resistance?
    Berserker Human – Guard Break or Inflict Crippling Wounds
    Monster Hunter Human – Net or +1 spirit damage in range and melee
    Phalanx Halfling – Projectile Resistance?
    Warbreed Elf – Good Moral +200 or First Strike?

    Rogue
    Scoundrel Halfling – Inflict Bleeding Wounds or Projectile Resistance?
    Scoundrel Elf – Projectile Resistance or Inflict Bleeding Wounds?

    Reasoning behind suggesting projectile resistance is size of halflings and reflexes to elves. Good moral for engineer is perhaps the one that take the most sense. ^^ Inflict bleeding since more units in game will combo with it in xp?

    #168957

    Zaskow
    Member

    Engineers Halfling – Good moral +200

    Exalted Elf – Good Moral +200 or Projectile Resistance?

    Good morale trait was a good suggestion.

    Berserker Elf – Inflict Bleeding Wounds or Projectile Resistance?

    All Berserkers already have Inflict Bleeding Wounds on veteran.
    Dwarf berserker already has Projectile Resistance. I don’t prefer copies.

    Berserker Human – Guard Break or Inflict Crippling Wounds

    Inflict Crippling Wounds is good, Guard Break combined good with orcs, probably.

    Monster Hunter Human – Net or +1 spirit damage in range and melee

    Throw Net is elite upgrade for all Monster Hunters. Additional spirit damage acceptable, but not very fun.

    Phalanx Halfling – Projectile Resistance?

    I couldn’t come up with anything, so why not?

    Warbreed Elf – Good Moral +200 or First Strike?

    +1

    Scoundrel Halfling – Inflict Bleeding Wounds or Projectile Resistance?
    Scoundrel Elf – Projectile Resistance or Inflict Bleeding Wounds?

    Projectile Resistance is veteran upgrade for all Scoundrels.

    #169115

    Shockhazard
    Member

    Good some of the suggestions was useable, btw it’s called High Moral, I remembered wrong. 🙂
    Regarding human hunters, Elemental Slaying? However I feel that is something dwarfs should have really, blessed tools of trade make more sense for humans. However if you wanna avoid spirit damage, Armor Piercing or the old classics I suggested on other units Inflict Bleed or crippling wounds?

    Scoundrel Elf – Armor Piercing?
    Scoundrel Halfling – Slingshots instead of tiny crossbows? Might be a pain for developers to make the change, and quite the buff with 3 shots instead of 1. Or give them some slaying like adventures? Dunno if it fits with animal and monster slaying on them.

    #169126

    Dagoth Ur
    Member

    You don’t HAVE to give every unit something special… 😀

    #169346

    Zaskow
    Member

    You don’t HAVE to give every unit something special… 😀

    Actually, the main target of this thread is to give EVERY class units of EVERY race something special.
    We have first success – Orc mounted archers got Razor projectiles as suggested. Not very big success, but still. Devs are listening us and try to make our wishes real. I hope, this thread will get second life after DLC release. And I’ll try to write, support and suggest here until all (or mostly) units in game will have some diversity. Or devs just locked this thread, being tired from my persistently. 🙂

    Regarding human hunters, Elemental Slaying?

    Actually all of Monster hunters need this trait.

    Scoundrel Elf – Armor Piercing?

    Acceptable. Some elf regular units (cavalry) has it.

    Scoundrel Halfling – Slingshots instead of tiny crossbows? Might be a pain for developers to make the change, and quite the buff with 3 shots instead of 1.

    Yes, slingshots will be the best decision. Implementing depends from devs’ free time.

    Or give them some slaying like adventures? Dunno if it fits with animal and monster slaying on them.

    Disagree with that, because we already have Archdruid Hunters for such targets. Scoundrels have another purpose – killing, looting and plundering everything in sight.

    #169355

    Gloweye
    Member

    Shockhazard wrote:
    Scoundrel Elf – Armor Piercing?
    Acceptable. Some elf regular units (cavalry) has it.

    This stems from the Unicorn, not from the Elf on top. Just like the Phase.

    #169368

    Zaskow
    Member

    This stems from the Unicorn, not from the Elf on top. Just like the Phase.

    Yes, wrong explanation from me. But still, why not?

    #169441

    haloloki
    Member

    I dont knoe if these units have been said and some might already have some uniqueness at least 1 im about to say does but here are some suggestions

    Dwarves
    Dwarf Hunter, monster hunter, bard, scoundrel. Shoot heavy crossbow
    Dwarf mounted archers armored if not already and shot heavy crossbow
    Dwarf Warbreed gain shatter
    Dwarf musketeers get fire Hand cannon – movement 2 turn cd/reload (rapid reload -1 turn)
    Dwarf Exalted change to shatter at veteran and petrifying touch at elite

    Halfling
    Evangelist veteran inflict misfortune
    Halfling hunter use slingshot, monster slayer
    Halfling sucubbus Throw misfortune instead of curse

    #169571

    Zaskow
    Member

    Dwarf Hunter, monster hunter, bard, scoundrel. Shoot heavy crossbow

    Already suggested, except Hunter.

    Dwarf mounted archers armored if not already and shot heavy crossbow

    Armored trait in list, crossbow had to discussed further, coz bow can do a lot more damage, than crossbows, especially when unit doesn’t move.

    Dwarf Warbreed gain shatter

    Thinking about this ability. It’s very situational and combine badly with warlord, which heroes and units (except elite monster hunters) haven’t any immobilizing skills.

    Dwarf musketeers get fire Hand cannon – movement 2 turn cd/reload (rapid reload -1 turn)

    Too imbalance, I think, coz you might use 2 engineers at one musketeer.

    Dwarf Exalted change to shatter at veteran and petrifying touch at elite

    We already have Stunning touch for all Exalted on elite. Inflict petrifying makes a more sense, probably on elite.

    #169606

    haloloki
    Member

    Dwarf musketeers get fire Hand cannon – movement 2 turn cd/reload (rapid reload -1 turn)
    Too imbalance, I think, coz you might use 2 engineers at one musketeer.

    prob write there how bout just has to reload two times

    anyway some more
    high elves Total awareness if it doesn’t already, being able to get attacks of opportunity on flying units trying to fly by

    Humans
    Warbreed Changed to devastating charge at elite (from charge)
    Monster hunter start with throw net and at elite throw net is replaced with coup de grace
    Bard Gains bestow iron heart from beginning or lvl up not sure which
    succubus loses 20% blight 20% fire resistance gains 40% spirit protection
    so a total of 40/40/40 fire blight spirit protection

    #169806

    Zaskow
    Member

    Warbreed Changed to devastating charge at elite (from charge)

    Good point.

    Bard Gains bestow iron heart from beginning or lvl up not sure which

    Hmm, you can hire human priests easily and get bestow iron heart. Anyway, healing support for rogue would be useful.

    succubus loses 20% blight 20% fire resistance gains 40% spirit protection
    so a total of 40/40/40 fire blight spirit protection

    Hmm, interesting to hear other opinions, as for me, this will be nerf of human succubus.

    #169835

    Astraflame
    Member

    You don’t HAVE to give every unit something special… 😀

    Yup, IMO giving almost every unit something would not be a good idea. For example Theocrat. Human evangelists spirit ray gave human something special, like dwarf now have armored evangelists, orcs already had tireless crusaders and draconian fire bolt evangelists. One or two special units should suffice per class, there’s no need to further buff orcs or draconian Theocrats, same goes for any other class.

    Dwarves
    Dwarf Hunter, monster hunter, bard, scoundrel. Shoot heavy crossbow

    A good example, dwarf Warlord isn’t lacking. Improved berserkers and phalanxes, dwarf also gives class units mountaineering which happens to be powerful with fast warlord units.

    Dwarf ArchDruid on the other hand don’t have nearly as much, currently just armored shamans? One more special unit makes more sense here, altough shoot heavy crossbow is far worse IMO than shoot bow.

    #169942

    Zaskow
    Member

    Yup, IMO giving almost every unit something would not be a good idea. For example Theocrat. Human evangelists spirit ray gave human something special, like dwarf now have armored evangelists, orcs already had tireless crusaders and draconian fire bolt evangelists. One or two special units should suffice per class, there’s no need to further buff orcs or draconian Theocrats, same goes for any other class.

    I’m disagree. If some units have stronger abilities, there is less sense to buy usual unit without new abilities. Differences in price don’t make a lot of sense, coz it’s not very high. Player should choose race, which class units combine with player’s gamestyle better. Human assassins are best for assassin spam, draconians are best in sieges.
    For example, if you have access to human bard or to high elf bard, what do you choose?

    #169985

    Dagoth Ur
    Member

    The thing is, now it’s fun to grab the town of a certain race because that allows you to recruit that racial equivalent of a certain class unit because it’s better. Like; you’re playing Orc Theocrat for the Crusaders, get a Draconian town, you start building Evangelists there.
    If everything has something special, you won’t really be hoping to get the Draconian town anymore, since the patch a Human town would do too. Ergo: Draconian town becomes less important. Your advocating diversity but in the end you’re getting more uniformity because of the abundance of choices. There’s a balance there somewhere.

    Ever walked into a store and you wanted to get some apple juice and there are these endless shelves of different brands of apple juice and you think “Hmm, I just want some decent apple juice, why have all these choices?“. And the truth is, yes, all these brands of apple juice do taste a little different, but in the end you don’t really care. That’s basically what it’s like to give every unit a unique skill.

    #170010

    Astraflame
    Member

    I’m disagree. If some units have stronger abilities, there is less sense to buy usual unit without new abilities. Differences in price don’t make a lot of sense, coz it’s not very high. Player should choose race, which class units combine with player’s gamestyle better. Human assassins are best for assassin spam, draconians are best in sieges.
    For example, if you have access to human bard or to high elf bard, what do you choose?

    There is more to it than that, while you’ve mentioned the plus side of multi race armies the downsides is terrain/climate incompatibility, one might prefer orc crusaders or dwarf over human but those won’t benefit from fertile plains like the human crusaders and the rest of the human forces. You might prefer elf bard over human, but don’t underestimate costs(especially human with +10 prod) and elfs not liking tropical climate or gaining anything from fertile plains.

    For example as Elf i always try to attack or defend from dense vegetation whenever i can(once terraforming is available even better) What happens if i have human/draconian units mixed with the rest of my elf forces, those unit won’t gain any hapiness neither will draconian be happy in artic whereas elfs can make strategic use of it.

    And finally, with Governance there are more reasons to stick with your main race whenever you can to rapidly unlock the good stuff.

    . Ergo: Draconian town becomes less important. Your advocating diversity but in the end you’re getting more uniformity because of the abundance of choices. There’s a balance there somewhere.

    Good point, i agree.

    #170015

    Zaskow
    Member

    The thing is, now it’s fun to grab the town of a certain race because that allows you to recruit that racial equivalent of a certain class unit because it’s better. Like; you’re playing Orc Theocrat for the Crusaders, get a Draconian town, you start building Evangelists there.

    Honestly, I can’t see a lot of fun in limited tactics and choices for players. Only Draco/Human Evangelist, only orc crusaders. Boring.

    Your advocating diversity but in the end you’re getting more uniformity because of the abundance of choices.

    Did you read first post? In most case I couldn’t create equivalent variants of all class units. Some of them still better. I just suggest to make other variants less worse.

    #170043

    Dagoth Ur
    Member

    There are already the inherent racial traits which is kind of a deal already, especially if you play Warlord.

    Yes I’ve read the first post and I think you try too hard to differentiate for the sake of it in some cases (like the Tanks), though I think there are some very good suggestions as I’ve stated before. My judgement is positive mostly, but if it’s too hard to come up with something, why not leave it at that?
    Some of the ideas are too far-fetched just because it is your intention to give every unit something special, as you’ve stated before, and this is where we disagree.

    #170065

    Zaskow
    Member

    There are already the inherent racial traits which is kind of a deal already, especially if you play Warlord.

    Mostly inherent racial traits have too small effect or even don’t have it in battles/global map. Only Halflings play really differently. When other races are just copypast of each other with different models and +/- to stats. I don’t like this really.

    Yes I’ve read the first post and I think you try too hard to differentiate for the sake of it in some cases (like the Tanks)

    I suppose, changing of tanks won’t happen. Still this needs separate thread.

    Some of the ideas are too far-fetched just because it is your intention to give every unit something special, as you’ve stated before

    Examples, plz. If you think, that some my decisions are far-fetched, let’s discuss. Main target of this thread is to hear opinions of other people.

    #170385

    Jubeithar
    Member

    I don’t understand something here, why are you deeming the draconian beserker/mounted archer as ‘good enough’ when they got nothing ‘unique’ that seperate them from the other variants? I’m not taking racials into account because you want to avoid that in your suggestions.

    #170421

    Zaskow
    Member

    I don’t understand something here, why are you deeming the draconian beserker/mounted archer as ‘good enough’ when they got nothing ‘unique’ that seperate them from the other variants?

    Maybe because draconian berserkers have Improved wall-climbing and mounted archers have 6 physical and 6 fire melee damage?

    #170572

    Jubeithar
    Member

    Maybe because draconian berserkers have Improved wall-climbing and mounted archers have 6 physical and 6 fire melee damage?

    But those are ‘racial’ traits because the racial units of there race have also the same benefits. For the beserker you could argue with improved wall climbing that it’s sufficient by itself, i’ll give you that but for the mounted archer? That physical/fire melee is really going to help the performance of his archery compared to the other variants.

    #170597

    Zaskow
    Member

    I made some changes in my suggestion list and used feedback from this topic.
    Changes or additional suggestions (community suggestions will be write in bold):
    Dwarf Hunter – Armored (like racial archer) OR Projectile Resistance (typical ability amongst many dwarf units) OR Heavy crossbow (needs additional animations and model rework)
    Goblin Hunter – poison arrows – +2 blight range damage, -2 range physical damage OR Poison darts (needs additional animations and model rework)
    Halfling Hunter – Monster slayer (like adventurer) OR slingshot (needs additional animations and model rework).
    Halfling Engineer – High morale – not the best variant, honestly, needs additional feedback.
    Dwarf assassin – add Cave Concealment.
    Elf assassin – Martial arts on Elite OR/AND 20% Blight protection (Assassins work a lot with different poisons).
    Halfling Scoundrel – Slingshot (needs additional animations and model rework).
    Halfling succubus – Minor bard skills on medal (veteran) OR Throw misfortune (like rabbit borrows do).
    Elf crusader – Martial arts on Elite (someone suggested this for elf swordsman).
    Elf Evangelist – add Stun on Elite (not sure, may be OP).
    Goblin Berserker – Disgusting Stench
    Human Berserker – Inflict Crippling Wounds on veteran
    Dwarf Mounted archer – Armored (like a Boar rider) OR Shoot heavy crossbow
    Halfling Phalanx – Projectile Resistance (small size and agility of Halflings – still, not very acceptable variant)
    Elf Warbreed – High Morale +200 or First Strike (with medal probably)
    Human Warbreed – Overwhelm (racial swordsman and halberdier) OR Devastating charge at elite instead Charge
    Units with additional abilities-placeholders or without it, which needs to be discussed:
    Draconian Hunter – fire arrows – +2 fire range damage, -2 range physical damage
    Goblin Engineer – +1 blight damage
    Draconian Bard – +2 range fire damage, -1 range physical damage
    Draconian Martyr – +1-2 fire melee damage, -1 melee physical damage
    Elf Martyr – +1-2 shock melee damage, -1 melee physical damage
    Elf Exalted – ?
    Draconian Monster hunter – +2 range fire damage, -1 range physical damage
    Human Monster hunter – ?
    Goblin Mounted archer – Poison arrows – +2 blight range damage, -1 physical range damage OR Overwhelm (Like Warg rider)
    Halfling Mounted archer – Strong will on elite (like pony rider)
    New version of changes in attachment
    Elf Monster hunter – +2 shock melee damage, -1 melee physical damage

    but for the mounted archer? That physical/fire melee is really going to help the performance of his archery compared to the other variants.

    It makes them a bit stronger in defense at least.

    Attachments:
    1. Class-units-v2.doc
    #170914

    Mythabril
    Member

    On Warbreeds:

    Draconian: Double the frost vulnerability to 40%, replace crippling wound on veteran with fire immunity and replace charge on gold with minor flame breath (7 hex blunderbuss template) on elite.

    Dwarf: Give it a beard and make the skin more hairy. Got to be made. Add Projectile resistance or armoured. Replace inflict crippling wounds with demolisher on veteran, turning it into a proper walking battering ram.

    Goblin: Add disgusting stench. Add spit poison on expert. Add 20% fire vulnerability and increase blight protection by 20 to 60, pointing to a closer relation to trolls instead of ogres for breeding them.

    Elf: Make them tree kin, turning the skin into a bark textured brown. Add 40% fire weakness. Replace inflict crippling wound with entangling touch on veteran. Replace charge with defender on elite.

    Halfling: Add projective resistance from all that blubber and add 20% physical resistance on expert, balancing out the halfling vulnerability. Maybe have them double the regrowth for a few turns after given food from a brew brother.

    Human: Add overwhelm. Replace inflict crippling wound with armour piercing on veteran. Add polearm on expert. These warbreeds are to destroy any lesser armed soldiers.

    Orc: Add war cry with tireless. Replace charge with fearsome on elite. Still the best warbreed and worth the increased cost.

    I found warbreeds generally lacking a bit compared to other units available to a warlord. Giving them some more distinct ability would make them a more valid choice, I think.

    #171326

    Teehon
    Member

    On Warbreeds:

    Draconian: Double the frost vulnerability to 40%, replace crippling wound on veteran with fire immunity and replace charge on gold with minor flame breath (7 hex blunderbuss template) on elite.

    Dwarf: Give it a beard and make the skin more hairy. Got to be made. Add Projectile resistance or armoured. Replace inflict crippling wounds with demolisher on veteran, turning it into a proper walking battering ram.

    Goblin: Add disgusting stench. Add spit poison on expert. Add 20% fire vulnerability and increase blight protection by 20 to 60, pointing to a closer relation to trolls instead of ogres for breeding them.

    Elf: Make them tree kin, turning the skin into a bark textured brown. Add 40% fire weakness. Replace inflict crippling wound with entangling touch on veteran. Replace charge with defender on elite.

    Halfling: Add projective resistance from all that blubber and add 20% physical resistance on expert, balancing out the halfling vulnerability. Maybe have them double the regrowth for a few turns after given food from a brew brother.

    Human: Add overwhelm. Replace inflict crippling wound with armour piercing on veteran. Add polearm on expert. These warbreeds are to destroy any lesser armed soldiers.

    Orc: Add war cry with tireless. Replace charge with fearsome on elite. Still the best warbreed and worth the increased cost.

    I found warbreeds generally lacking a bit compared to other units available to a warlord. Giving them some more distinct ability would make them a more valid choice, I think.

    Very solid ideas.

    Also, it would be super nice if different Dreds had different machines, or some small variety at least. Doesn’t make sense that ALL races make exactly the same machines (Look at modern armies, even thought most assault rifles function similarly, different units vary quite a lot)
    F.E


    etc etc

    #171483

    Zaskow
    Member

    Also, it would be super nice if different Dreds had different machines, or some small variety at least.

    I suggested different types of tanks, but didn’t get much support… 🙁

    #171542

    Teehon
    Member

    I suggested different types of tanks, but didn’t get much support… 🙁

    Doesn’t have to be tanks, there might be just one unique unit (the same base and animation, just some small visual changes hopefully):

    For example:

    Dwarves: Masterwork Cannon, has an additional “Grapeshot” ability and 1 more point to defense

    Orcs: Orcish Golem, some kind of Killa Kan unit (more powerful, more expensive, still volnurable to magic)

    Elves: Tesla Cannon (lol idk but something with Electrical damage, maybe something using overcharged Mana Battaries)

    Halflings: Party Robots of course!

    Goblins: warp cannon!

    Frostlings:
    Frost Tank

    Tigrans:
    Out of ideas 🙁

    #171801

    Zaskow
    Member

    No need to steal ideas from Warhammer Fantasy. 🙂

    #171811

    Teehon
    Member

    No need to steal ideas from Warhammer Fantasy. 🙂

    They are just examples of how it could be done 🙂

    #171825

    Hieronymous
    Member

    Hot damn, grapeshot would be a cool ability, even just for regular cannons. Both the cannonball and grapeshot could share a 1 turn cooldown. I don’t know how balanced it would be, or if it would just be like a stronger blunderbuss with purely physical, but still.

    On Warbreeds:

    Great ideas.

Viewing 30 posts - 31 through 60 (of 126 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.