Class units diversity

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Home Forums Update v1.5 – Open Beta Balance Class units diversity

This topic contains 125 replies, has 24 voices, and was last updated by  Zaskow 7 years, 2 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 61 through 90 (of 126 total)
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  • #171829

    Zaskow
    Member

    Hot damn, grapeshot would be a cool ability, even just for regular cannons. Both the cannonball and grapeshot could share a 1 turn cooldown. I don’t know how balanced it would be, or if it would just be like a stronger blunderbuss with purely physical, but still.

    In terms of game mechanics grapeshot will be look like siren scream. Same damage, same effect. Maybe for balance grapeshot will need additional reload before using (changing cannonball on grapeshot).

    #171832

    Dagoth Ur
    Member

    The Warbreed ideas are all really good!

    #171940

    I’m mostly an Archdruid player so I’ll start from there. The AD has a problem in the sense that whenever one refers to an AD, he will most probably be referring to the obnoxious High Elf. This is bad for obvious reasons. Hopefully this thread helps remedy this elf infestation.

    HUNTER:
    Goblin
    The goblin niche is that they are the best Hunter for scouting. I think if the goblin hunter is to best that dastardly High elf Hunter, we have to play to Goblin’s scouting strength. Plus adding blight damage to everything Goblin is plain boring and is outclassed in the late game.

    Cave Concealment, Mountain Concealment, +1 Vision Range Upgrade, in addition to inherent Wetland Concealment
    This way, Gob Hunters will lose in a straight up fight with Elf hunters, but no one will be able to question Gob scouting supremacy.

    Draconian
    Whenever one mentions Draconian Hunters in this forum, some bloke somewhere will always come up with an impassioned defense by saying “But oh, they can be buffed by Dragon Ancestry! Bet your elf hunters can’t touch this” Maybe this obsession with fire is the way to go?
    Whenever this unit deals fire damage, it has a chance (9 res) to inflict immolation

    This is an out-of-the box mechanic and without precedence, but it also opens up new tactics with Fire Halo, Bane of the Unnatural, Forge Priest etc and reinforces an established Draconian Elder play style. Might be worth looking at.

    Dwarf
    The Dwarf situation is a bit complicated in the sense that Dwarfs are not known for their archery prowess. Personally I’m inclined to go with a simple “Armor Piercing” buff, which the Dwarf Crossbowman gets at Gold medal. This reflects superior dwarf metal, which they use to make the arrow tips.

    If we take this further, I’m also interested in an anti-reinforced ability, perhaps “Mithril Arrows” which gains +4 ranged damage against units with reinforced (Though I’d doubt any full-blooded dwarf would be willing to ping away their mithril hoho!) Maybe replace Martial Arts at Gold.

    Halfling
    Monster slayer is redundant with Favored Enemy, and Slingshot is purely cosmetic, so I would not go that route. That being said, not a big fan of Halflings so not sure what to do with this lot.

    SHAMAN:
    Human
    Human Shamans should have better synergy with their Hunters. A simple “Water Concealment” buff without cost increase should suffice. Was a bit annoying that shamans revealed themselves in rivers whilst the Hunters remained hidden.

    Orc
    The Orc Shaman in this game is woefully underutilized imo. For such an iconic combination (seriously, the orc shaman should be the shaman, no questions asked), I would go all out. I’ll throw out a couple of suggestions here:

    1) Call Bleak Warg. Summons a Bleak Warg next to the Shaman to assist in combat until the end of the fight. Warcraft-Inspired. OP? Maybe. Synergy? Hell yes. At the very least, we get a ready chump to “Awaken Spirit” or cast Savage Rage on. I think production in the range of 160g 40m would balance this. Or

    2)Thrill of the Hunt. All orcs within a 3 hex radius of this unit gain the War Cry ability for this turn. 1/2 turn cooldown. Basically a mass War Cry and who better to have this than the Orc Shaman? With enough Shamans, you could perma-War Cry your entire army. Orc support at its finest.

    #172205

    Zaskow
    Member

    Draconian: Double the frost vulnerability to 40%, replace crippling wound on veteran with fire immunity and replace charge on gold with minor flame breath (7 hex blunderbuss template) on elite.

    Good suggestion.

    Dwarf: Give it a beard and make the skin more hairy. Got to be made. Add Projectile resistance or armoured. Replace inflict crippling wounds with demolisher on veteran, turning it into a proper walking battering ram.

    Toughness on elite better, instead Projectile resistance or armoured?

    #172222

    Teehon
    Member

    I would love to know if the topic is still followed by Tombles or someone else from the devs team…

    In general, I think Warbreeds and Machines are the ones who require attention right now. The problem is especially strong with Dred, because if you decide or forced to use high-tier armies, your race will NOT matter at all, you will have exactly the same units as ANY other Dred, and I find it wrong. I am not asking for brand new units, just small reskinning and adding some differences in abilities will do the job.

    (And PLEASE add beard to Dwarf Warbreed and a Crossbow to Dwarf Hunter.. People are really happy with the new Orc Hunter, I think the dwarven one can go the same way)

    #172281

    Zaskow
    Member

    And PLEASE add beard to Dwarf Warbreed

    Beard behind mask.

    In general, I think Warbreeds and Machines are the ones who require attention right now. The problem is especially strong with Dred, because if you decide or forced to use high-tier armies, your race will NOT matter at all, you will have exactly the same units as ANY other Dred, and I find it wrong. I am not asking for brand new units, just small reskinning and adding some differences in abilities will do the job.

    We had to go with concrete suggestions. Now everyone has his own opinion and point of view. We need to compile our ideas into one list.
    I’ll try to do this for warbreed.
    Draconian: minor flame breath (7 hex blunderbuss template) on elite, veteran with fire immunity (http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/class-units-diversity/page/2/#post-170914). My suggestion was: inflict scorching heat OR/AND inflict immolation
    Dwarf: Projectile resistance or armoured. Replace inflict crippling wounds with demolisher on veteran (http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/class-units-diversity/page/2/#post-170914). My suggestion was Defensive strike.
    Goblin: disgusting stench. Add spit poison on expert. Add 20% fire vulnerability and increase blight protection by 20 to 60 (same post). My suggestion was Disgusting stench only.
    Elf: Add 40% fire weakness. Replace inflict crippling wound with entangling touch on veteran. Replace charge with defender on elite. My suggestion was High Morale +200 or First Strike.
    Halfling: Add projective resistance from all that blubber and add 20% physical resistance on expert, balancing out the halfling vulnerability. My suggestion was backstab on expert/elite.
    Human: Add overwhelm. Replace inflict crippling wound with armour piercing on veteran. Add polearm on expert. My suggestion was Overwhelm OR devastating charge at elite, instead normal Charge.
    Orc: Add war cry with tireless. Replace charge with fearsome on elite. Still the best warbreed and worth the increased cost. No my suggestions, mostly coz orc warbreed is the best in line.
    I didn’t write suggested work with warbreed appearance. I think, that look is the last thing to upgrade.
    So, discuss.

    #172739

    Mythabril
    Member

    I just realized something that may make it impossible to add racial variance to dreadnought machine units: They don’t come with a race tag, unlike other class units. So without the race tag, a racial variance cannot be attached.

    Maybe a developer can shed some light on that?

    #172742

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    We can make racial variants of machines if we like, it’s just more work! Frostlings get a Frost Tank, for example. You need to remember we’ve already made new models for each of the racial variants of assassins and things, adding variants for all the different tanks and things is a ton of work.

    Another issue is how easy it is to come up with a good version and making sure you don’t gimp the unit by accident or anything. For example, having a poison tank for goblins might be a good idea, but it will probably be worse 9 times out of 10 than a flame tank.

    #172754

    Epaminondas
    Member

    We can make racial variants of machines if we like, it’s just more work! Frostlings get a Frost Tank, for example. You need to remember we’ve already made new models for each of the racial variants of assassins and things, adding variants for all the different tanks and things is a ton of work.

    Another issue is how easy it is to come up with a good version and making sure you don’t gimp the unit by accident or anything. For example, having a poison tank for goblins might be a good idea, but it will probably be worse 9 times out of 10 than a flame tank.

    That could be nice, but I’d prefer priority placed on racial class unit diversity (i.e., all racial class units get something unique, the way, say, Dwarf Crusader gets Defensive Strike and Orc Crusader gets Relentless).

    #172801

    Mythabril
    Member

    We can make racial variants of machines if we like, it’s just more work! Frostlings get a Frost Tank, for example. You need to remember we’ve already made new models for each of the racial variants of assassins and things, adding variants for all the different tanks and things is a ton of work.

    Good to know. It doesn’t always need to be a full model switch to add racial flavour, too. Just some stat changes, a boost here, a nerf there and it becomes more unique. One can take care to use existing assets for effects, further reducing the scope of work needed for the modifications.

    Another issue is how easy it is to come up with a good version and making sure you don’t gimp the unit by accident or anything. For example, having a poison tank for goblins might be a good idea, but it will probably be worse 9 times out of 10 than a flame tank.

    Balance is always delicate. I think the current balance is very good. So if racial variety adds a boost to a unit, there needs to be a equal nerf, too, to keep the balance intact. Of course, one also needs to keep an eye on the big picture, for racial synergies and avoid damaging them, as in your example of the goblin flame tank.

    #172839

    Zaskow
    Member

    For example, having a poison tank for goblins might be a good idea, but it will probably be worse 9 times out of 10 than a flame tank.

    There is lot of ways to make unit with poison damage useful and devastating. Simple idea about poison tanks. Just give to their poison breathing “Weakening” status effect. That’s all. Unit will be useful against units with poison immunity (undead and machines) and pretty devastating against other target.

    You need to remember we’ve already made new models for each of the racial variants of assassins and things, adding variants for all the different tanks and things is a ton of work.

    I know creating or changing 3-d model is very expensive and difficult, so…
    What about using same models for each variants? 🙂 Maybe, not very immersive, but cheap and not difficult. As for me, it’s acceptable. Thing is to give to each variant his own list of abilities and stats.
    I prefer same look for tanks and different abilities instead 1 unit for every race.

    Balance is always delicate. I think the current balance is very good. So if racial variety adds a boost to a unit, there needs to be a equal nerf, too, to keep the balance intact. Of course, one also needs to keep an eye on the big picture, for racial synergies and avoid damaging them, as in your example of the goblin flame tank.

    Current state of balance has small quirks here and there, but not very critical. However, guys, who play quick duel games have their own point of view on balance. Very-very different I had to say…
    In my suggestion I try to not give too imbalance things. Or give them on medal upgrades. For example, does disgusting stench for Goblin warbreeds make them too OP? I suppose, no. Still, I can balance thing by putting price nerfs or buffs here and there.
    QUESTIONS TO DEVS
    Can you say me, how you operate with prices in game? Can you set ANY price for units or must stay in definite area? Price must be aliquot to some number?

    #172878

    Gloweye
    Member

    Simple idea about poison tanks. Just give to their poison breathing “Weakening” status effect. That’s all. Unit will be useful against units with poison immunity (undead and machines) and pretty devastating against other target.

    Smells OP. Weakening Breath does something like that, but has a chance that depends on blight resistance, and is already pretty strong.

    #172884

    Dagoth Ur
    Member

    There is lot of ways to make unit with poison damage useful and devastating. Simple idea about poison tanks. Just give to their poison breathing “Weakening” status effect. That’s all. Unit will be useful against units with poison immunity (undead and machines) and pretty devastating against other target.

    I don’t think that works on units with a 100% Blight protection, like you can’t stun units with 100% fire protection with pure fire attacks.

    #172894

    Zaskow
    Member

    Weakening Breath does something like that, but has a chance that depends on blight resistance, and is already pretty strong.

    Weakening Breath has low damage. At least when i fought obsidian dragon or blight elementals I didn’t suffer much from their breathing.
    Now you can see how using additional ability can move unit from crap to OP :), because devs said different things:

    For example, having a poison tank for goblins might be a good idea, but it will probably be worse 9 times out of 10 than a flame tank.

    I think, good decision for poison tanks can be found, just need tweaking.

    I don’t think that works on units with a 100% Blight protection, like you can’t stun units with 100% fire protection with pure fire attacks.

    When I say ‘weakening’ I meant status effect, which inflicted by Goblin town defense building. It can do Poison weakness even on Poison immunity units.

    #172993

    Astraflame
    Member

    As the warbreed is concerned, IMO the only right thing is to replace it for any none beast race .. It’s an aesthetically/lore freak.
    Dwarves could get the giant mole back in it’s place, halflings a melee variant of the centaur etc. Warbreed is really just fit for orcs and passable as goblin/draconian. That’s if more dlcs will be made after this expansion, asking for this now is silly of course.

    #173157

    Zaskow
    Member

    I’m okish with warbreeds aesthetic side. This is a result of selection or magical experiments. And it works in same way even for different races.
    I’m concerning more about their ‘inner’ state. Now warbreeds are just a copypast of each other. I’d like to see them such as different like manticores.

    #173180

    Astraflame
    Member

    High elf warbreed/halfling… i’m sorry but nothing can justify their existance, then human and dwarf is the second worst thing. It’s so bad idont allow them in my games, it’s the main reason i’m all for race specific class units.

    #173186

    Zaskow
    Member

    High elf/halfling on steroids. 🙂 Why not?

    #173321

    Dagoth Ur
    Member

    High elf/halfling on steroids. :) Why not?

    All the cool kids are doing it!

    #173400

    Zaskow
    Member

    So. Are all agree with suggestions in this post? Any questions or remarks?

    #173409

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    That could be nice, but I’d prefer priority placed on racial class unit diversity (i.e., all racial class units get something unique, the way, say, Dwarf Crusader gets Defensive Strike and Orc Crusader gets Relentless).

    Sure, but if you look at the OP of this thread, we’re a good way towards that already, and it would be nice if the Dread got some attention in this regard.

    #173426

    Zaskow
    Member

    I suppose, no major changes will be implemented until DLC release?

    it would be nice if the Dread got some attention in this regard.

    What kind of suggestions do you want to see from fans? Separate suggestion for every dread unit for every units? It’s pretty hard, I have some ideas only for tanks. Or every race get only one special Dread unit?

    #173428

    Bob5
    Member

    I like a bunch of them, especially the Disgusting stench for Goblin Warbreeds, I think that’s quite appropriate.

    I also like War Cry on Orc Warbreed, forces you to think between maximizing Tireless efficiency by going Guard mode or actually benefiting from War Cry which only lasts until the end of your own combat turn, or just cast Killing Spree on them to get both. That said, War Cry also combo’s well with Killing Spree to get more out of it.

    For armouring Dwarf Warbreeds you need at least to model the Warbreed again in my opinion, which takes a lot of work. I also don’t think Defensive Strike is very appropriate for a Warbreed, I like to think of Warbreeds more like mindless killing machines, not like careful considerate sneak-attackers. I think just Demolisher would already work.

    About the rest I’m not sure either way, I think maybe Total Awareness could be better for Elves than anything else.

    For the poison tank, I don’t know if it’d be better or worse than Flame Tanks. I think Beetles and blight doctors (or even untouchables as cannon fodder, they get blight immunity from bronze onwards) all being immune helps. But they’d probably need something more, so perhaps just not make them start on cooldown and give them some debuffs right from the start, like Inflict Bloating Gas and maybe Inflict Disgusting Stench (Bloating Gas is currently a random mutation from Wild Magics Spontaneous Mutation spell, it gives a blight explosive death effect), just to make them really unique. You can go for the regular blight debuffs but some others are nice for variety. It’s difficult to estimate how well blight will do with the undead probably being more prevalent in Eternal Lords. Maybe inflict Weakening at gold medal if they still need more buffs, since AoE weakening is kind of powerful.

    #173430

    Bob5
    Member

    Devs, even if you don’t make Poison tanks, please still make that Inflict Bloating Gas skill, I think being able to cause your enemies to explode with gas from the inside would be incredibly fun, and right now Bloated with Gas is just seen far too little. Best for Goblins though, they wouldn’t mind the collateral damage too much. And apply the debuff before death if the attack causing the inflict is a killing blow.

    #173431

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Sure, but if you look at the OP of this thread, we’re a good way towards that already, and it would be nice if the Dread got some attention in this regard.

    Yes; you’ve done an absolutely masterful job in gradually improving the variety of class racial unit line-up since release. (In general, I’ve never seen a game get this kind of continuous and meticulous support/improvement – ever.) Still, I’d like to see this process more or less completed regarding class racial units before we get to machines – especially because the latter apparently will take more resources and creativity. Also, another consideration is that I frankly think some of the suggested machine “improvements” will actually make them worse.

    #173515

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    QUESTIONS TO DEVS
    Can you say me, how you operate with prices in game? Can you set ANY price for units or must stay in definite area? Price must be aliquot to some number?

    We can set what we like, typically though we give a unit a new thing and then add 5 or 10 to it’s cost. For extreme examples, like the High Elf Manticore rider, we can add more.

    As for the machines, any suggestions are welcome! Another thing I should have mentioned though is that each unique unit needs it’s own description text, which needs to be written and then translated (which costs money). This is another reason I didn’t add new machines this patch, despite liking some of the ideas like the Steam tank. We are currently on text lockdown, we can’t add any new text to the game, since it’s too late to have it translated.

    Anyways, I can’t promise anything, but I’ve gone through the list and grabbed some of the most promising ideas for internal discussion. Like I already said, I’m not sure we can afford many big changes this close to release, but maybe we can fit in one or two of the best ideas.

    #173516

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Also, another consideration is that I frankly think some of the suggested machine “improvements” will actually make them worse.

    That worries me as well! In a way you can argue that worse isn’t that big a deal. A poison gas spewing tank is worse 8 times out of 10 than a fire one, but we can make it cost less, or make it do more damage, or make it ignore line of sight since it’s a gas. It’ll still have less use that a flame tank, but it would be capable of doing a few things that a flame tank isn’t, and we are trying to add diversity.

    #173553

    Epaminondas
    Member

    That worries me as well! In a way you can argue that worse isn’t that big a deal. A poison gas spewing tank is worse 8 times out of 10 than a fire one, but we can make it cost less, or make it do more damage, or make it ignore line of sight since it’s a gas. It’ll still have less use that a flame tank, but it would be capable of doing a few things that a flame tank isn’t, and we are trying to add diversity.

    Yeah, fair enough – especially since you are not restricted to 1 race when producing units.

    #173557

    Astraflame
    Member

    So. Are all agree with suggestions in this post? Any questions or remarks?

    Remarks; Wont use them, halfling/human/elf/dwarf no matter the new cool abilities, (beard warbreed? :d that CGI thing in the first Hobbit movie was bad enough, let’s not make it worse) IMO leave them be until a new Dlc or mod replaces em with something acceptable, i suppose if the right thing won’t be done those suggestions are pretty good, i rather see devs focus on other things, like improving the dread final spell that needs attention.

    #173562

    Astraflame
    Member

    Strangely, i have two warbreed suggestions of my own. Halfling warbreed; make it the size of the goblin version and give it clothes, i’d like to think of an oversized brewmaster bred for war when i see them, possible a farmers hat and the throw chicken ability.

    High elf warbreed; cover the skin with bark and let branches grow out from the head area, i’d like to think of a mutated nature elemental rather than elfs doing things worse than the former dark elf culture and their experiments.

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