Classes "duplicates" and improved version of already existing racial units?

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Classes "duplicates" and improved version of already existing racial units?

This topic contains 10 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  Draxynnic 8 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #51831

    vota dc
    Member

    Let’s talk about of class units compared with same tier racial units that have the same purpose.
    One example seems to be the warbreed compared with big beetle (both tier 3 with wall crushing), but I guess we will have to wait warlord revelation day.
    ROGUE tier 1 scoundrels seem very similar to civic guard (they have crossbow too) but they are an improved version of them because they cripple. The others have all different purpose than racial units (no racial unit convert enemies, no racial units backstab and pass wall etc).
    SORCEROR surely phantasm warrior doesn’t have this issue. Don’t know nothing about Node Serpent, maybe Apprentice could collide with tier 2 support but they have triple elemental damage.
    THEOCRAT tier 1 Martyr you could use as irregulars, they even throw stones like dwarves prospectors (but I doubt they dig) but you won’t because you want them on the back after linking a strong ally, tier 3 exalted fly so have the same purpose of draconians and elves tier 3.
    ARCHDRUID is Hunter a tier 1? In that case it is an improved version of longbow (same thing with bonus against animal) and you can use to replace basic ranged except in some situation with goblins. Shamans collide with others racial support units?
    DREADNOUGHT don’t have this issue at all.

    #51875

    UndeadKoala
    Member

    Units sharing a trait or movement mode does not mean they share function or are duplicates. Class units also tend to have higher costs and upkeep than racials, and you don’t always pay for abilities that are useful in your situation.

    #51880

    Knjizhnichar
    Member

    Actually class units don’t have higher upkeep than racial units. Upkeep is tied to tier, it starts at 4g/turn and doubles with each tier (so it’s 4, 8, 16, 32).

    #51918

    Even if there is overlap with a particular race, it simply gives you options!

    You might not have any Goblins in your empire, or time/money/inclination to tech Goblin cities up, so as a Warlord you’d want to use Warbreeds, for example.

    #51970

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Honestly, your Elven Longbowman => Elven Hunter comparison is probably the most accurate. Aside from the Longbowman being armored(thus higher functional defense, barely), the Hunter has more movement distance and movement types(free movement moveset + swimming), Forest Concealment, a couple more Resistance, and Martial Arts at Gold Rank. The latter provides +5 Defense against Retaliations and Attacks of Opportunity, making it easier for them to disengage more safely so they can shoot an enemy. I think the HP is roughly the same.

    In a similar way, you could call Hunters essentially a pure upgrade for Humans as well, losing the Armored trait of the normal archers, and gaining the traits listed above.

    Shamans are a T3 Support unit, and like their fellow T3 Support, the Evangelist, are far enough removed from the standard supports, such that they are not simply ‘upgrades’.

    Civic Guard => Scoundrel does kind of work, too, I suppose, as you said.

    Martyr and Exalted are actually quite different from the comparative units in function.

    Apprentice is most similar to the Faery Dwelling’s Faeries, as it even uses a lower-end Faery Fire attack. It’s not a replacement for racial supports, though, at it’s more based on damage and utility, than on normal supports’ Buff/Debuff system. Oh, and it gets Invisibility at Gold rank, which is kind of like how the T3 Fairy unit is innately invisible.

    #51971

    High Elven Hunters are just the best, given their mobility and deadliness, so they are really the finest archer unit in the whole game.

    #52044

    amblingalong
    Member

    I was actually curious as to how Exalted and Draconian Flyers would work differently. T3 units with similar stats and abilities, aside from different resistances, no?

    #52055

    b0rsuk
    Member

    It looks like Scoundrels are hands down the best irregular in the game. I can’t see a reason to recruit anything else unless you need fire from hatchlings or digging. They really look like a strictly better version – they shoot, can sprint and cripple(?). The worst thing is, there is so much overlap. Virtually all Let’s Play videos have battles against Scoundrels, and I fail to see anything special about them. And it’s a class unit ?

    #52112

    Leon Feargus
    Member

    It looks like Scoundrels are hands down the best irregular in the game. I can’t see a reason to recruit anything else unless you need fire from hatchlings or digging. They really look like a strictly better version – they shoot, can sprint and cripple(?). The worst thing is, there is so much overlap. Virtually all Let’s Play videos have battles against Scoundrels, and I fail to see anything special about them. And it’s a class unit ?

    ‘Irregular’ is a standard term used not only for tier 1 units, so by that acknowledgement the Assassin is obviously better. As for Scoundrels being the best tier 1 irregulars … I don’t think so. The fun thing about the game is that things are always situational, so in some instances it will be the best unit to have on the spot (especially now that it has Sabotage) and in other instances you might wish you had built another Goblin Untouchable instead.

    It is true that there are many roaming indy Scoundrels. There are also roaming Spiders and Blightboars (Archdruid class) but other classes are under-represented in this aspect. This is probably because these units fit this role so well.

    #52113

    Edi
    Member

    Scoundrel is a rogue class unit, yes.

    #52202

    Draxynnic
    Member

    As people have already pointed out, just because two things fit into the same category (irregular, support, etc) does not mean they necessarily overlap with one another. A shaman, for instance, supports in a quite different matter to a human priest, who in turn supports differently to a draconian elder.

    That said class units that are built at cities (summons are a side issue due to the entirely different way in which they are recruited, which means that summons rarely actually replace conventional units or vice versa) generally do fit into two general categories: those that perform a similar role to a racial unit, and those that fulfill an entirely different role.

    Again, we can probably put the second group aside, as they aren’t directly competing with racial units, apart from a note that it may be larger than you might think (musketeers, for instance, do not really replace regular archers, but instead make for a deadly source of damage spikes). In the first group, though, they can probably be categorised into two subgroups:

    Subgroup 1: Class units that replace tier 1 units. In this category, the class units are generally better, although they might pay for this by being at a higher tier, and in specific circumstances that benefit a racial unit’s features the latter might come out ahead. The main reason for this is that low-level class units typically still require more investment than low-level racial units. Low-level class units require research (albeit less than the higher-level ones), which racial units do not, and the class building is more expensive to build than the basic barracks. The theocrat crusader unit and the warlord berserker unit are good examples – if you have the capability to build one of these at a city, there’s probably not much point building the racial basic infantry unit there. These represent specific strengths of the class in question.

    Subgroup 2: Class units that compete with tier 3 racial units.

    Note the word “compete” here, since at this stage they aren’t necessarily superior. To give the example that’s been floating around – a manticore rider may be more powerful than a gryphon rider, but two gryphon riders probably come out ahead unless you’re trying to squeeze as much power as possible into a stack. If you’ve got a city capable of producing tier 3 racial units, it is often a better idea to just let it keep building those. Basically, unlike the lower-tier units which are eminently replaceable, the higher-tier racial units become the signature units of those races and generally never become entirely obsolete.

    However, the benefit of these class units is that the investment to get them is largely empire-wide, while the investment for racial class units is usually city-specific. Generally, the first tier 3 units you’ll get access to in a given game will be your racial tier 3s, but to produce, say, a gryphon rider, you’ll need an elven city with the military branch of the building tree fully completed, which costs several hundred gold to get to that point. The manticore rider, on the other hand, can be produced at any city regardless of race as long as you’ve made the relatively cheap investment of the class building. Now, it might take a ridiculous amount of time to complete production if you tried to build a tier 4 unit at an otherwise bare outpost, but being able to produce manticores at nearly any city is an advantage to only being able to produce gryphons at elven cities at which you’ve made considerable investment.

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