Concerning Dragons

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This topic contains 17 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  vota dc 7 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #142848

    ESCL
    Member

    Hello and merry Christmas to you all,

    Since the Golden Realms expansion and the accompanying patch with the change to the elementals I’ve felt that there is something missing with the dragons and wyverns. As it is now they are all quite similar with slightly different status effects and elemental attacks/resistances. I would like this to change. These are examples of the changes I would like to see:

    Frost dragons/wyverns:
    Currently the weakest dragonkin, the frost dragons/wyverns will become even weaker with the upcoming frostlings and necromancers – since both likely will have frost protection. I would like to see the frost dragons/wyverns as the most mobile and versatile dragonkin instead, possibly with a preference for ranged attacks as well. It would still be the weakest in a straight up fight, but would be superior on the strategic map. Maybe consider adding skills like arctic concealment, projectile resistance and some lightning protection too. It is after all a being of both water and air. Sprint at gold?

    Fire dragons/wyverns:
    The middle ground of the dragonkin spectrum, useful for evil dragonmasters and is only hampered by the fact that fire protection is quite common. I would like to see it as the most offensive of the dragons – much like the fire elemental. Stronger attack than even its golden counterparts, although it would still lose in a straight up fight because of the latter’s fire immunity. Killing momentum at gold?

    Golden dragons/wyverns:
    The kings of dragonkin, and rightfully so – the golden dragon is the strongest unit in the game, and a reason to be a good leader. It should stay a powerhouse but I would like to see it lose its frost weakness and gain even more elemental protections. I see it as a creature that can be killed, yes, but lacks a real weakness.

    Obsidian dragons/wyverns:
    The rare and sneaky obsidian dragonkin are so rare that I think I’ve only seen a couple during all of my games. Since I’ve never used it myself, I cannot really comment on whether it’s strong enough. I think it should stay a sneaky debuffer, but it looks like its stats could be improved. Is weakening breath really enough on its own? Only one damage channel? Maybe a bit of physical and frost protections? Backstab? And please place them in the Dragons Peak.

    What do you think? Do you agree or do you consider the dragons fun enough as they are?

    #142874

    SaintTodd
    Member

    Sounds good, but not too sure about golden dragons stronger.

    #142886

    Yuriohs
    Member

    Obsidian dragon’s can’t actually be built by players right?

    #142902

    vota dc
    Member

    My suggestions are:

    Bone Dragon the weakest but can be risen from any killed dragon.

    Frost Dragon the weakest alive dragon but also the fastest like AOW1.

    Fire Dragon I agree with the proposal of making him the best brawler.

    Golden Dragon deserves to be the most versatile, for the sake of D&D. Could lose frost weakness but also blight and fire protection reduced to 60 or 40% but gain gas breath and fire breath.

    Obsidian Dragon could just gain +1 or +2 blight attack….always find weird that it debuff resistance and increase blight weakness without being the one to gain from it, after all is supposed to be a ninja dragon that hunts the prey alone, now is a goblin friend lol.

    #142973

    ESCL
    Member

    @sainttodd: Well, stronger versus elemental attacks and lacking in real weaknesses – would probably mean reducing its damage a bit and other suitable nerfs. Further increasing the price is also a possibility.

    @yuriohs: As it is now, no. Hopefully this will change in the future.

    @vota dc: Making the golden resistant to many but immune only to spirit is certainly a way to go. Not sure about the other breaths though, a dragon being able to use a breath attack every turn is really strong. Maybe adding some fire damage to the normal spirit breath.
    Yes adding blight damage to the obsidian seems like a good plan – or giving it gas breath too. Since weakening breath deals very litte damage and none to already weakened targets this would not be as strong as another combination of breaths

    #142993

    Gloweye
    Member

    On top of that, already weakened targets are immune to weakening breath, and take no damage from it. I really think the Obsidian Dragon needs a boost of awesome, getting a bit of health, damage, and breath usefullness. Whether blight is the way to go, I don’t know – its already being used in the bone dragon. I suppose it could be a physical dragon, but maybe with some awesome inflict abilities. Also, it should be available at the Peak.

    #143029

    ESCL
    Member

    @gloweye: Yeah, you might be right about the blight – it doesn’t really feel like a blight unit either. Just a shame the weakening breath still would be quite useless without blight support. Having it as a melee debuffer could definitely be good though.

    #143038

    Lannister
    Member

    Frost dragons were known for having the best breath attack, freezing . I dont use them and dont recall atm, but do they still freeze if not that should be their inherent advantage; feared for the breath freezing.

    #143046

    ESCL
    Member

    @lannister: At the moment, Inflict Freezing Cold is awarded at gold and is a 8 resistance attack. Also, the effect frozen is just a 1 turn stun in AoW3 – not that a 1 turn stun is weak but still not then frozen from AoW2. Giving it some extra speed and Inflict Freezing Cold at a earlier level could be enough to make it competitive.

    #143064

    vota dc
    Member

    @vota dc: Making the golden resistant to many but immune only to spirit is certainly a way to go. Not sure about the other breaths though, a dragon being able to use a breath attack every turn is really strong. Maybe adding some fire damage to the normal spirit breath.

    They could find a way to put all the breaths on cooldown when you use just one. For innate breath make sense since it comes from the body and not from an artifact. Would be funny to see a golden dragon versus an unicorn, a machine and an undead.

    #143069

    Lannister
    Member

    Increased speed is also worth considering, just keep in mind that they will synergize with frostling and may become more popular, i would further reduce their hp or armor then increase the speed and inflict freezing cold inherently, the description suggests they are fragile for dragons but mentions their deadly freezing ability. New gold medal could be artic concealment.

    #143131

    UltraDD
    Member

    Per each dragon type :p :

    Ice Dragons : Its kinda silly dragons are even for entry level hunters (Lore) since they are supposed to be among the most dangerous creatures around. Being fragile could be better represented with a 20% physical weakness yet increased armor (Weaker vs armor reductions). Ice dragons are kinda strong vs frostlings (immune to cold) dunno why would they be weaker toward them. Giving them MP as they level sounds fitting for ex-air sphere top-tier dragons. I’d even lose them the fire weakness because extreme cold should protect from heat not make you weaker to it :P.

    Fire Dragons : Kinda fine as they are.

    Gold Dragons : Overlaps too much with fire dragons and even appears as the always go-to alternative. I’d remove fire damage all together from its breath so it isn’t that top-tier (Also they synergize with almost everything and would hard counter necromancers and archons too much). Dunno if they should be nerfed or all other dragons should out perform them in something. (Lets face it, you’d only build one of the other 2 if they extremely counter the enemy).

    Obsidian : Should have BACKSTAB. Its a very hard to detect dragon that is also insanely rare to encounter. Weaken breath should apply something that actually synergizes with them instead of this weak breath! Maybe apply a fragile attribute that causes +20% physical weakness to things they breath on.

    Bonedragons : Reduce armor a bit but give them tireless and projectile resistance to compenstate. Also teach the AI that biting is superior vs a single target most of the time than breathing. And to destroy a gate if its allies are too weak to do it quick enough. Give them fire resistance to counter the undead weakness (Light weakness is already devastating enough, they are also dragon kin)

    All Wyverns : Single projectile attack gained on gold level.

    #143138

    Gloweye
    Member

    Gold Dragons: Remove blight and Fire immunity. They’re silly. Also, its still the best dragon even without those. Since it’s dedicated to good and all that, give it Holy Champion instead.

    As for the Obsidians, how about Unholy Champion? Also, I like the aforementioned inflict for physical weakness.

    #143147

    Dragons are not elementals: they are fundamentally the same type of thing with differences based on preferences for life energy, cold, fire, etc.

    Frost Dragons are, if anything, more important with frostlings and necromancers. After all, what dragons do you want to fight shadow stalkers with? Dragons that have frost weakness, and can be frozen, or one that is immune to most of their damage and effects? Also grant frozen flames is quite good for them.

    You also have to consider balance here: Dragons are already so powerful that boosts would have to be neutral in power. Killing momentum, for instance, would allow a fire dragon to breath fire, kill stuff, and still defend (without even quick dash or revitalize).

    Obsidian dragons should be added, yes, yes they should. If they were there, however, their uber concealment means that their stats can’t really be improved that much. Backstab would be ok, and there are some new abilities that might work as well. I’ll see what I can do about that.

    Gold Dragons: Remove blight and Fire immunity.

    Blight immunity, as well as spirit, represent their power over the things used by necromancers, who are subverters and enemies of light. Fire immunity comes from their gold status, because they are the highest of metal dragons, who have to deal with elemental metal shaping stuff.

    #143151

    woolfsmck
    Member

    Obsidian is a really hard substance…

    therefore -50percent physical

    Frost Dragon breath should have a higher resists , like 11 or so .. to make them stronger

    Plus and Cystal Skin buff to make them physical and heat resistant

    #143168

    ESCL
    Member

    Well, I actually wouldn’t like them to be all that much stronger – just more different. With the possible exception of Obsidians. As for some of the skills I mentioned, like killing momentum – are definitely too strong without an substancial nerf. And going the elemental way of giving them crippling weaknesses is probably not the best way to go. However giving them more flair, and not just letting them be the same unit with fire instead of frost based skills, is still something I’d really like to see.

    #143173

    Gloweye
    Member

    Obsidian dragons should be added, yes, yes they should. If they were there, however, their uber concealment means that their stats can’t really be improved that much

    Regarding that concealment….They’re visible only when on Fertile Plains or Barrens that aren’t blighted or subterranean. Wouldn’t it be simpler to just give it invisibility?

    #143190

    vota dc
    Member

    Blight immunity, as well as spirit, represent their power over the things used by necromancers, who are subverters and enemies of light. Fire immunity comes from their gold status, because they are the highest of metal dragons, who have to deal with elemental metal shaping stuff.

    In SM they were immune to poison and fire but not to death magic because D&D thing that golden dragon can use both fire breath and gas breath, in AOW1 were resistant to fire.

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