Converted units changed to 0 MP have more consequences than imagined?

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Converted units changed to 0 MP have more consequences than imagined?

This topic contains 6 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by  Jolly Joker 3 years, 2 months ago.

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  • #257194

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I admit I didn’t think about what I will show you now – I thought, the consequence of last patch’s change to set “converted” units’s MPs to 0 was, mainly, that you’d either have to stop in your tracks to “integrate” them, halting a possible advance, or leave them isolated and on their own, plus missing out on using converted units as scouts. A sensible change – but not the only consequence.

    Consider screen 1:

    The 2 white full stacks on the left in the middle, to the West of the Sorcerer town, initiate a battle against the 2 lavender stacks. The attacked stack is, yes, a single hero, the stack to the East is shown in the top bar, led by an Evil Eye, containing 2 Goblin Beetle Riders.

    Now consider screen 2:

    This is the situation after the won battle. Each white stack contained a Succubus, and they managed to seduce both Beetle Riders. Now look at how they were positioned. The Eagle Rider was the unit that initiated the attack and now occupies the hex the lone enemy hero sat in. Both Goblin Beetles sat in the hex East of it. One Rider has been put on the Hex Southwest to its initial place, adjacent only to the single advacing Eagle Rider of the attacking force (and not to any of the Succubi). The second Rider is – difficult to see – in the hex Northwest of the Northermost attacking stack (adjacent to one of the attacking Succubi, but not adjacent to the hex it was in OR ANY allied-occupied hex.

    Now consider the following: The attacking Eagle Rider HAS MP left, but consider the rest of the units strapped for movement points. There are a couple out of them all, some may move one hex, some even two…

    Positionally, this is pretty disastrous, right?. With the Eagle Rider having MPs, I can move back in line – isolating the seduced Beetle Rider, making it an easy target. Still, there is the other Rider, and there is no way to solidify ranks: the Goblin Rider will always be a target, no matter how you move A COUPLE of your units around (assuming that you are out of MP with units in both stacks and can move a couple still.

    I’m not quite sure what I make of that – the AI faces the same difficulty, mind you, with a disadvantage in positioning talent from the start. It makes conversion near the enemy more risky, which may be a good change, but the gained units are positioned in a completely random way, SEPARATED on ANY empty hex around the involved forces, which is the kind of liability that’s not pretty – or is this EXACTLY the thing needed to discourage “stretched” battles like this, coming up on last MPs to destroy a soft AI position?

    What do YOU think?

    #257213

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Positionally, this is pretty disastrous, right?

    What do YOU think?

    Improve your positioning.

    Check out this, what you describe cost us a big defeat in a 2vs2 Tournament match:
    Turn 28
    rickyroo moves recklessly toward the Archon Dwelling, kills the Dire Bear of rrrrookie and scan the area with his True Sight White Witch.
    rrrrookie comes out of nowhere and butchers the split army of rickyroo (who had retreated from a fight where he converted 1 unit, preventing him from moving and re-organizing his stacks to avoid the split). He takes almost no loss and makes rickyroo pay dearly for his recklessness (moving close to an area under the control of another player without perfect scouting and splitting his own troops).
    Jonny Thunder destroys the Fortress of Hiliadan west (that he had already rebuilt once), after it was left empty for just 1 turn.
    Hiliadan rebuilts the Fortress once again after killing the Crow that stayed on the Fortress’ previous location. He clears a Crystal Tree and a Magma Forge and starts moving back toward the Cave Entrance near Ghatel to intercept rrrrookie. He also spots an army of Jonny moving underground toward him (but still very far away).

    This happened before July, you’re a bit late.

    #257215

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Well, I don’t see any race on, with medals for those who spot something first, and what I also didn’t see was kind of a discussion about this.

    Also, you didn’t offer an opinion here.

    If it is YOUR turn, it’s no problem – you can always DISBAND a newly gained unit, when it becomes a liability, as a last resort, if the situation is too dangerous. In the example that you gave, the player RETREATED from a fight to get the converted unit, accepting total MP loss, deliberately risking something, so disbanding the unit was obviously no option, otherwise why retreat in the first place? I don’t have a problem with that – as I said, you can always disband a unit, should it be badly placed or whatever.

    But it can also happen, if it’s NOT your turn (and not because MPs are 0). It might conceivably even used AGAINST you. In PBEM, you can try this, especially against a Necromancer with Death Bringers – just send a unit to sacrifice itself. If it got ghoul-cursed in the resulting auto-battle, the Necro stacks are suddenly quite vulnerable. (If not, you may try it again.)

    Should that work, you MIGHT consider this a neat trick, but I can’t help thinking that this is kind of “dirty”, if you know, what I mean.

    I’ll check on whether I can force such an issue and report.

    #257216

    Hiliadan
    Member

    If you’re talking about defence, then the issue is only with mind control, not with the fact that the unit starts with 0 MP, because when it’s not your turn, you can’t move anyway. Right?

    #257230

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Yes, that’s why I added in brackets that it’s not an MP=0 related problem 🙂

    You get a unit “gifted” that is then attacked, thereby pulling part of otherwise well-positioned units into the battle.
    I’ll see whether I can make that work.

    #259242

    gladis
    Member

    Jilly Joker´s Beetles positions are very strange ofc, they should stay be positioned at least on the place they were at the first place. I always send Units away if I´m in danger and they split my army. I did so in my final vs Fist, I did so vs cbower. Lost both games anyway, but it was the right decision. And I wouldn´t hesitate to attack an enemy at his weakest point, if he didn´t do the same!

    But to send one T1 to a stack full of MC-Units to split it from another stack would be dirty. They should be positioned in a complete other hex, not in contact of any other stack. If this isn´t possible, this should be added to the rules of official games 😉

    PS: The title of the thread should be changed then 😛

    #259246

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    The title should probably be changed, yes.

    I think, this problem could be solved by giving converted units not 0 movement points, but 6. This would allow to “correct” unlucky placement (that is, move the unit away from contact), but avoid movement-related exploits (6 MPs aren’t that many).

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