Dev Journal: About Dragons

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Dev Journal: About Dragons

This topic contains 94 replies, has 27 voices, and was last updated by  Gloweye 6 years, 2 months ago.

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  • #10278

    Brother JO
    Member

    Pointless? :O It was one of the more entertaining discussions we have had :D

    But the end result will always be: “Each to his own” i guess ;)

    Wasn’t that thread about AoW games are sandbox or not? And Lore sucks or not?

    If we accept Aow games as sanbox or not does it change anything? Nope.

    If Lore sucks or not does that change the fact we need lore? Nope.

    Though we can count second one as some sort of feedback, but it is not very clear and positive feedback at all.

    #10280

    Draxynnic
    Member

    If I have a lot to say, I’m going to say it. I’m not going to leave something unsaid just for your convenience.

    BUT in third game, it’s more about your Empire and your emperor.Just because you started with Elves do not mean that your empire is elvish empire. What represents your empire is your deeds and your emperor. You approach goblin settlement and they don’t say:” Welcome Theocrat of blasted elves”, they will say: “Welcome Theocrat of Blablabla Empire”.Because of this I expect the race you select will not be the most important factor in relations.

    There’s an important element you’re forgetting here:

    Your Leader has a race.

    This is actually a distinction from some of the AoW2 wizards. Some of them – mostly from Shadow Magic – were clearly from one race or another, but most of the Wizard’s Circle were essentially ‘roughly human in appearance, but who knows what they really are.’ Artica and Karissa, for instance, seem to have been elemental spirits of fire and ice, possibly a Frost Queen and the fiery equivalent.

    In AoW3, though, your leader is explicitly a member of one race or another, so even if it’s a genuine multicultural empire where everyone is equal (and avoiding having so much as an unspoken “first among equals” is easier said than done), creature settlements can still have initial impressions based on the race of your Leader. To pick the example which has the least contestable lore backing – the draconian race exists so that the dragons could have fast-reproducing, humanoid allies to call on, and thus most true dragons can certainly be expected to look more favourably upon a draconian leader. Humans, by contrast, have a long history of hunting dragons, and in one of the lore dev journals, it’s been mentioned that in the human-dominated Commonwealth “the Draconians that are despised because they believe they are dragonkin.” That says to me that humans and dragons are still not on friendly terms, and thus dragons are likely to react with distrust to an empire that is known to have a human leader.

    I think you’re also underestimating the role that races will play in AoW3. The campaign, at least to start off with, is shaping up to be a conflict between the human-dominated Commonwealth and the Elven Court, with the other races presenting both sides with potential allies or foes to conduct diplomacy with. Here, I expect racial relations to play a similar role to how they did in AoW1, rather than being largely swept under the rug in the conflicts between wizards as in AoW2. In fact, I suspect that in most cases during the AoW3 story, leaders of a particular race will be leading nations, or serving as the local commander of a larger empire’s forces, of the race they belong to. The two character’s we’ve been told about as the protagonists – Julia’s daughter and the idealistic Commonwealth officer – certainly are.

    At the bottom line, I think having some racial prejudices, both ways, add strategic and storytelling depth. Storytelling because, well, it makes sense that races that traditionally ally with a particular creature den would find it easier to do than races that are typically antagonistic towards them. Strategically because it’s another consideration to be made. Do I go after the obvious one, or do I woo the less obvious one because that’s what my opponent won’t expect? Will the forces of the creature den that doesn’t like me better compliment the forces I get from my race, and thus be worth the extra effort it takes to woo them over the proverbial low-hanging fruit?

    In fact, come to think on it, there’s another reason to have racial relations – not all neutrals are going to have the same synergy with every race. Consider draconians, for instance – they’re likely to already have flyers, firebreathers, and so on, and thus dragons might actually be less valuable to them than they would be to, say, dwarves. By contrast, if the draconians lack a heavy ground melee bruiser above tier 2 like they did in AoW2, then recruiting giants would fill that hole. Far from forcing players to always go in a particular direction, racial relations might actually serve as a balancing factor, providing a disincentive to players from always going for the creature den that best compliments their race and class.

    So, you say that you’re worried race relations would mean that each race has a ‘default’ creature den that they’ll always go for whenever practical? Removing racial biases isn’t going to stop that. Sooner or later, the meta is likely to settle to a point where people have a good idea which creature dens best compliment which races, at which point you’re going to have exactly the situation you’re afraid of – except the combinations that come out in the meta may have little or no resemblance to the expectations you’d get from the story.

    Diplomatic biases may serve to offset that somewhat – and even if it doesn’t, given a choice between a meta of favouring lore-appropriate pairings encouraged by diplomatic bonuses versus lore-inappropriate pairings encouraged by mechanical synergies, I’d much rather err in favour of the former.

    Of course, nobody’s saying the bonuses or penalties should be so extreme that it’s always a done deal for one race and virtually impossible for another, just that they’re there.

    TL;DR:

    Your Leader still has a race, which diplomatic partners with racial biases can respond to.

    Favoured combinations of race and creature den are going to come up with or without racial biases. I’d rather they were pushed towards combinations that were supported by the lore rather than combinations that go against it.

    #10283

    Brother JO
    Member

    In AoW3, though, your leader is explicitly a member of one race or another, so even if it’s a genuine multicultural empire where everyone is equal (and avoiding having so much as an unspoken “first among equals” is easier said than done), creature settlements can still have initial impressions based on the race of your Leader. To pick the example which has the least contestable lore backing – the draconian race exists so that the dragons could have fast-reproducing, humanoid allies to call on, and thus most true dragons can certainly be expected to look more favourably upon a draconian leader. Humans, by contrast, have a long history of hunting dragons, and in one of the lore dev journals, it’s been mentioned that in the human-dominated Commonwealth “the Draconians that are despised because they believe they are dragonkin.” That says to me that humans and dragons are still not on friendly terms, and thus dragons are likely to react with distrust to an empire that is known to have a human leader.

    Merlin is human; he ruled pretty much every race in the game.From Orcs to elves, from humans to undeads.

    Symon is human(even if he is outcast) ; he rules halflings.

    Yaka is a human(or god, or tigrans think he is a god while he is just a human wizard)- he ruled tigrans

    Tempest is obviously human wizard- he ruled draconians

    Julia was Wood Elf(Now a High Elf)-she did not only lead elves, from time to time he lead neutral races and even get help from evil races if I recall correctly

    Phobius and Vorsar were human and not only they were human they also had pro-human politics(humans are number 1 race, others are 2nd class citizen) but still they lead orcs in campaign.

    What I’m trying to say is you can’t match leader’s race with empire. What stops you from playing outcast Elf Dreadnaught who leads orcs and goblins? Or playing a Human Warlord leading elves and draconians? I found your argument on this matter, wrong.

    Diplomatic biases may serve to offset that somewhat – and even if it doesn’t, given a choice between a meta of favouring lore-appropriate pairings encouraged by diplomatic bonuses versus lore-inappropriate pairings encouraged by mechanical synergies, I’d much rather err in favour of the former.

    Favoured combinations of race and creature den are going to come up with or without racial biases. I’d rather they were pushed towards combinations that were supported by the lore rather than combinations that go against it.

    We did this same discussion looong time ago with different people under a different name.Funny, because I had the same role in that discussion as you have in this one. In that discussion I said that dreadnaught elves are unlogical in lore.How does elves forbear elven dreadnaughts who destroy those precious elven forests with their landships?

    Lorewise it doesn’t make any sense at all.But making dreadnaugt unselectable for elves will just limit peoples’ choices. If somebody wanted to play an elven dreadnaught he wouldn’t be able to play, because bunch of players find it lorewise not logical.

    Now returning to main topic: Just because it’s lorewise un-logical should not prevent me from doing certain race-faction combos. If I want to play elven empire with Kharagh faction allied I should be able to play that without ant prevention.What you suggest is just limiting peoples’ choices with factions.

    P.S. Another wall of text and I’m replying with just “k” LOL 😀

    #10286

    What it boils down to is:

    No race/class specific differences > dwellings

    Small or Limited race/class specific differences > dwellings

    Large race/class specific differences > dwellings

    It seems Drax fights for large, the majority fight for small and ive yet to see someone fight for none at all but im sure we have some lurkers who would prefer that option too.

    Small seems ideal – an extra easy quest or two (prove your the good sort of (race) by giving us some money) etc

    #10287

    Brother JO
    Member

    It seems Drax fights for large, the majority fight for small and ive yet to see someone fight for none at all but im sure we have some lurkers who would prefer that option too.

    Well, I’m fighting for none if possible

    except draconians, because dragon dwelling is highest level dwelling and you have to do A LOT of quests or donations to make them join you, so a very little advantage for draconians won’t change that a lot in that case, but for other dwellings since it would be easier to make them join you(thus requiring less donations and quests) and if you give a race advantage on those dwellings it might be too much that, it can eliminate other races chances with that faction while racing with that race.

    What I mean is if you have to complete 10-15 quest to get control of dragon dwelling nothing really matters if first 1 or 2 quest of the dwelling is easier just for draconians.

    I think if a mapmaker or modder wants to make a faction more favoured toward a selected race, he can do it by means of scripts.But I don’t want that option as a default.

    Still after saying all these; I’ll be content if there must be really, small bonus for each race with a dwelling.

    #10292

    Andysaurus
    Member

    What would realy be fun is to be able to have Human Dragon (Draconian Flyer) hybrids. I am a fan of Once Upon a Time and Grimm, where shape changing goes on all the time.

    On the silly side, I noticed that Leonardo DiCaprio ( Caprio is some kind of referance to a goat) has a head with arcane hairline that would look good fitted with a couple of dragon horns – he would be fun in Once Upon a Time as a shape changing dragon wizard powerful enough to give The Dark One (or The Queen of Hearts) the run around.

    #10293

    meeber
    Member

    Ok for once and for all: No one in this forum want to say what kind of mod can you make or what lore can you use . We dont have the right to do so and its your game anyway. So feel free to create any content you want. I tried hundreds of mods in my life in many games from many creators but i never ever find one which said ” we created this xy mod for the game because the original lore is shit and we wrote a hundred times better”. Because basicly thats what you stated before, AoW lore is bad and even worse AoW has no lore at all and you and your friends can write a better one. And that was disrespectful, pompous and unacceptable. So this was the problem for us “lore buffs” not that you want to change the unit descriptions and create you own content. I hope its clear now.
    [/quote.,,]

    I never said the lore was shit. I said that I did not use it and created my own which I have every right to do. Your the one that took offends and thought I some how was bashing the game. You and several others
    overreacted to what I was saying. And I never said that you should not enjoy and use the lore the game cam
    with. Now yes I don’t care much for the official lore and never used it but that is not the same as saying “The lore is crap and no one should use it.”

    #10294

    Tomipapa
    Member

    Oh and upcoming lore that my friends and I will be throwing out for AOW3 will be the Giant lore which we found to be kind of dumb

    Sry my bad you said dumb not shit so the problem is solved because dumb is a very nice word.

    hell when I tell them about this discussion several responded “AOW had lore?

    Aow and aow:sm have always been my favorite fantasy tbs games and the one aspect I have always liked about them is the lack of lore being shoved at me

    Well I was not a fan of the default lore but as I said before I did not see much lore in the games to begin with.

    And you said at least 3 times that AoW has no lore. AoW has lore its a fact, you can love it or hate it its your own opinion, nobody will blame you for that, but saying AoW lacks lore or have no lore at all is not an opinion its bs.

    But lets end this. Do whatever you want with your mod change everything you want i(or anyone) wont hate or even dislike you for that just dont say it everytime you come here(even when we talked about totally different things). I dont count it but i think you said at least 10 times that you will change the lore. Ok, we know it already we understand it so please, dont say it for the eleventh time.

    #10295

    I never said the lore was shit. I said that I did not use it and created my own which I have every right to do. Your the one that took offends and thought I some how was bashing the game. You and several others overreacted to what I was saying. And I never said that you should not enjoy and use the lore the game cam with. Now yes I don’t care much for the official lore and never used it but that is not the same as saying “The lore is crap and no one should use it.”

    You shouldnt say this sort of stuff when we can just quote you old posts 😛

    Personally I don’t like or even care about the new lore

    But I never got into the lore of these games. the campigns were not very good (but then most TBS campaigns suck.)

    Implied that AoW campaigns suck.

    The flavor in the game for my friends and I come mostly from D&D not AOW. Because we create many maps based on this. And we have in the editor took out all the original lore descriptions and replaced them

    So neither I nor my friends have made use of the AOW specific lore since the first year that we got the game.

    Blatantly claiming D&D lore to be better (i dont mind your personal opinion … just dont understand why you bother state it xD) and thus bashing the original lore.

    …that would not make it as dumb. That I can buy. But regardless my little friends and I will be using our own lore per map we create. But that dose not mean you cannot play with the AOW lore that comes with the game. Just make sure you don’t download community maps that don’t follow the AOW lore and if it is anything like the previous AOW games there will be a lot of non-AOW lore maps out there.

    Out of the 3 or 400 maps i have played i can assure you that you can find many many many many many maps built around the AoW lore at heaven games.

    Look each map you make you are putting in your own lore no matter if you background is based on the AOW lore or based on something else like Middle Earth or one of the many works of Dungeons and Dragons.

    You say you put D&D lore into you own stuff, but dont lie and say you dont slightly alter it or add your own to it. Non-cannon stuff is not anti-lore. A game with a modding/mapping community as old as this is no doubt going to have fan built stories added to the maps.

    Man I’d hate to see the hostile reactions of you guys if I told you that I always turn off the in game music and play my own.

    You come to a “FAN forum as that is what pre-release forums are for… fans of the game as you cannot be anything else at this time…. and then say “it doesn’t exist, ok its just bad, well i can do better, well not me but the decades of D&D releases are better” and you expect what … love and kisses? lol

    I got bored about half way through your posts but you have a lot more to draw from. You recieved a bad reception for very little on your part (i always try to talk in a good manner to you and everyone else except Blaneck =P) so im sorry for that. But you attitude towards the game (apart from the weird/unfinished ogre stuff which i also dont like) goes against everything a lot of the people here stand for and your lack of insight into the game as well as unwilling attitude to discover what people are talking about was quite shocking which also likely resulted in some harsher posting from the regulars 😛

    #10296

    Brother JO
    Member

    Meeber wrote:
    But I never got into the lore of these games. the campigns were not very good (but then most TBS campaigns suck.)
    Implied that AoW campaigns suck.

    He didn’t meant AoW campaign suck. While he stated that he didn’t like that he also meant that most TBS campaigns suck which is not in case with age of wonders, he just didn’t like it.

    Blatantly claiming D&D lore to be better (i dont mind your personal opinion … just dont understand why you bother state it xD) and thus bashing the original lore.

    Sorry, but I don’t see anything with that.I mean he said he liked D&D better than AoW lore, there is nothing wrong with that.

    Meeber wrote:
    Man I’d hate to see the hostile reactions of you guys if I told you that I always turn off the in game music and play my own.

    Bro, this one is really harsh. Okay, hunter give me the fire ,LETS BURN THE HERETIC!!!!!!!!! ROFL XD 😀

    Okay,seriously there is nothing to object about this one too.

    You come to a “FAN forum as that is what pre-release forums are for… fans of the game as you cannot be anything else at this time…. and then say “it doesn’t exist, ok its just bad, well i can do better, well not me but the decades of D&D releases are better” and you expect what … love and kisses? lol

    I got bored about half way through your posts but you have a lot more to draw from. You recieved a bad reception for very little on your part (i always try to talk in a good manner to you and everyone else except Blaneck =P) so im sorry for that. But you attitude towards the game (apart from the weird/unfinished ogre stuff which i also dont like) goes against everything a lot of the people here stand for and your lack of insight into the game as well as unwilling attitude to discover what people are talking about was quite shocking which also likely resulted in some harsher posting from the regulars

    He is right about that one bro, don’t expect kisses when you don’t agree with general idea in a forum 😛

    Hmmm there was a meme about this lemme check 😀

    Edit: Here it is:

    TRUE STORY

    #10298

    He didn’t meant AoW campaign suck. While he stated that he didn’t like that he also meant that most TBS campaigns suck which is not in case with age of wonders, he just didn’t like it.

    Well he said it was no good, then commented all TBS campaigns suck (with AoW being a TBS he included it :P)

    Sorry, but I don’t see anything with that.I mean he said he liked D&D better than AoW lore, there is nothing wrong with that.

    Ah yea all i mean to say is that he had no need to constantly talk about replacing the lore with what he thought was superior (furthering the AoW lore is bad argument)

    Bro, this one is really harsh. Okay, hunter give me the fire ,LETS BURN THE HERETIC!!!!!!!!! ROFL XD 😀

    Ahahaha yea man i didn’t mean anything about the music at all, only his perception of a harsh reception. Was only saying why he got it 😛 The music thing was just on the end of the comment xD ^^

    #10299

    Thanks for the reply, Lennart, although I don’t think you’ll have too much luck keeping people from over analyzing the game based on the (admittedly limited and provisional) information you give us. That is like 90% of the fun of an internet forum.

    I still like the font, and am happy that there will be some more fantasy flourishes to come; that really builds “immersion”, and makes you think like you actually are the Great Warlord Ozymandias on a quest for the Trident of Dagon, Lord of the Misty Deep.

    as to the different roles, I now feel obligated, because you said the Obsidian Dragon was a “stealthy fighter”, to refer to it as “The BatDragon”.

    for duplicate abilities: Perhaps the fact that the Golden Dragon inspires could be called “font of” whatever name you guys ultimately give the buff, and then the fact that it inspires itself (so does it look at a mirror and say, Gee I’m soooo cool?) could have the same title as the buff would have in any other unit so inspired.

    #10301

    Yeah, I try to be polite also, but some things are outside the pale. For instance, I reserve the right to respond to Tolkien insults with overwhelming, disproportionate force (and both Quenya and Sindarin cursing). Also, see the hate speech in “I have no mouth, and I must scream” by Harlan Ellison.

    Because the fantasy lore in this game, as in all modern games, books etc, is in the Tolkien lineage, I take offense to the insults to the Aow game lore (that I love for its “kitchen sink” approach to allow any and all good fantasy stuffs in for entertainment).

    #10302

    Brother JO
    Member

    for duplicate abilities: Perhaps the fact that the Golden Dragon inspires could be called “font of” whatever name you guys ultimately give the buff, and then the fact that it inspires itself (so does it look at a mirror and say, Gee I’m soooo cool?) could have the same title as the buff would have in any other unit so inspired.

    No, Golden Dragon looks at the mirror and says: ” I’m sexy and I know it! ”

    EDIT: LMAO! XD

    #10307

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Please cite your lore backing for Yaka and Tempest being human? Sure, they LOOK human in their portraits… but that doesn’t mean anything when there are others that also look human but are explicitly something else like an elemental spirit.

    Yaka hates humans, and even judging from appearance, it’s much more likely that he’s an azrac. But azrac mythology credits him with creating the azracs, just like the tigrans – so if he did create them, he’s not one himself. So what is he really? He could be another fire spirit, like Karissa. His azracs had pointed ears, so maybe he’s actually an elf under that regalia. Maybe he really is a human with intense hatred of his own people. Maybe he actually WAS a godling, even if his power was only on a level that mortals could reach through wizardly studies. Who knows? We don’t.

    Tempest, again, has nothing to tie him to humans. He’s probably another nature spirit, except representing air itself rather than Artica’s ice. But again, we don’t know. He could be a dragon himself that took human-like form as a lark. He’s that crazy.

    Basically, of the original twelve wizards of the Wizard’s Circle, only about half were of one of the defined races.

    Non-Circle wizards are of defined races, but both they and the Circle wizards of defined race overwhelmingly act in the capacity of leaders of their races. Using the examples you listed: Merlin, at least in the Wizard’s Throne, was acting in the capacity of a human king, and while he lead armies of other races at times, that’s through lending his magical skills and tactical acumen in support of allies, or making use of troops lent to him by an ally to achieve a goal that humans weren’t suited for. All of his actions are in support of ensuring the survival of his human subjects. Julia is invariably leading elves, she’s just a very skilled diplomat and has plenty of non-elven allies (and no, I don’t think there’s any time in either campaign where she starts with evil races – that’s what Meandor’s for – although her diplomatic abilities helps her to be able to keep them on-side when she does acquire some). Phobius and Vorsar were most DEFINITELY leaders of a human empire – just one that, like the Commonwealth would later, had other races as mercenaries and second-class citizens. And Symon was an outcast, an exception that proves the rule.

    A rule that is set by pretty much every other wizard that has a well-defined race. Amber, Anon, Arachna, Fangir, Marinus, Nekron, Perses, Serena, the orc wizard whose name I can’t remember… all invariably behaving as leaders of nations of their races when they appear. Meandor is also a Dark Elf leader, he’s just one that also uses undead when it’s convenient. Even in AoW2, most wizards who had a defined race – were leading nations of, or primarily composed of, that race. Even when they had other races in their empire, it was typical for their own race to have a “first among equals” status at least, and in some cases (the Empire of Phobius, for instance) other races were explicitly second-class citizens.

    So yeah, leaders that are NOT representing their own race are a minority even in AoW2. The bigger point – and part of the reason why it’s different to the class argument previously – is that it’s based around the perceptions of the creature lair, neutral city, or other diplomatic partner. Even if you are an outcast leading a different race… you say you’re different to all the other humans? Prove it.

    As for getting the non-traditional comboes: I’m not saying they should be unreachably difficult. I’d be quite happy with it being a small difference in the greater scheme of things (I know I used the terms ‘large bonus’ and ‘large penalty’ in previous posts, but these were purely relative to smaller bonuses and penalties). However, I think it’s appropriate to have some encouragement to forming lore-appropriate alliances over more unusual ones.

    The other thing that I notice you completely ignored in your last post is the point that favoured combinations are going to arise anyway, due to some combinations having greater synergy than others. I’d much rather err on the side of the most common alliances being those that are supported by the game’s story.

    #10309

    Draxynnic
    Member

    PS I’ve just made a new thread to discuss this issue specifically rather than derailing other threads, so please carry out any further discussion there.

    #10315

    Brother JO
    Member

    Please cite your lore backing for Yaka and Tempest being human? Sure, they LOOK human in their portraits… but that doesn’t mean anything when there are others that also look human but are explicitly something else like an elemental spirit.
    Yaka hates humans, and even judging from appearance, it’s much more likely that he’s an azrac. But azrac mythology credits him with creating the azracs, just like the tigrans – so if he did create them, he’s not one himself. So what is he really? He could be another fire spirit, like Karissa. His azracs had pointed ears, so maybe he’s actually an elf under that regalia. Maybe he really is a human with intense hatred of his own people. Maybe he actually WAS a godling, even if his power was only on a level that mortals could reach through wizardly studies. Who knows? We don’t.

    Tempest, again, has nothing to tie him to humans. He’s probably another nature spirit, except representing air itself rather than Artica’s ice. But again, we don’t know. He could be a dragon himself that took human-like form as a lark. He’s that crazy.

    Basically, of the original twelve wizards of the Wizard’s Circle, only about half were of one of the defined races.

    Non-Circle wizards are of defined races, but both they and the Circle wizards of defined race overwhelmingly act in the capacity of leaders of their races. Using the examples you listed: Merlin, at least in the Wizard’s Throne, was acting in the capacity of a human king, and while he lead armies of other races at times, that’s through lending his magical skills and tactical acumen in support of allies, or making use of troops lent to him by an ally to achieve a goal that humans weren’t suited for. All of his actions are in support of ensuring the survival of his human subjects. Julia is invariably leading elves, she’s just a very skilled diplomat and has plenty of non-elven allies (and no, I don’t think there’s any time in either campaign where she starts with evil races – that’s what Meandor’s for – although her diplomatic abilities helps her to be able to keep them on-side when she does acquire some). Phobius and Vorsar were most DEFINITELY leaders of a human empire – just one that, like the Commonwealth would later, had other races as mercenaries and second-class citizens. And Symon was an outcast, an exception that proves the rule.

    A rule that is set by pretty much every other wizard that has a well-defined race. Amber, Anon, Arachna, Fangir, Marinus, Nekron, Perses, Serena, the orc wizard whose name I can’t remember… all invariably behaving as leaders of nations of their races when they appear. Meandor is also a Dark Elf leader, he’s just one that also uses undead when it’s convenient. Even in AoW2, most wizards who had a defined race – were leading nations of, or primarily composed of, that race. Even when they had other races in their empire, it was typical for their own race to have a “first among equals” status at least, and in some cases (the Empire of Phobius, for instance) other races were explicitly second-class citizens.

    So yeah, leaders that are NOT representing their own race are a minority even in AoW2. The bigger point – and part of the reason why it’s different to the class argument previously – is that it’s based around the perceptions of the creature lair, neutral city, or other diplomatic partner. Even if you are an outcast leading a different race… you say you’re different to all the other humans? Prove it.

    As for getting the non-traditional comboes: I’m not saying they should be unreachably difficult. I’d be quite happy with it being a small difference in the greater scheme of things (I know I used the terms ‘large bonus’ and ‘large penalty’ in previous posts, but these were purely relative to smaller bonuses and penalties). However, I think it’s appropriate to have some encouragement to forming lore-appropriate alliances over more unusual ones.

    The other thing that I notice you completely ignored in your last post is the point that favoured combinations are going to arise anyway, due to some combinations having greater synergy than others. I’d much rather err on the side of the most common alliances being those that are supported by the game’s story.

    k

    #10318

    BlaneckW
    Member

    Please cite your lore backing for Yaka and Tempest being human?

    He made it up. Tempest might be human, but Yaka seems to have been around long before humans came to continent, since Azracs considered him their god and they’d been around long before humans came to continent. The devs could alway retcon something in, but Yaka you might have a better basis for calling primordial (though, as Merlin says, just a wizard). They’re called Wizards for a reason. I wouldn’t consider them to be “elemental spirits”.

    Artica is a Frost Queen. The scenarios “Fire and Ice” portraying Artica and Karissa as elemental spirits are hyberbole… While AOW1 scenarios are included in the timeline, I don’t consider AOW2 scenarios to be canon unless otherwise stated.

    I never actually had any problem with the lore/background/universe outside the cataclysm being somewhat vague and undeveloped, though I’m fine with them filling it in with things that are basically mythological in source. Elegant. Giants as being derived from a combination of the earthly and the primordial isn’t “stupid”, it’s derived from mythology. Please, don’t discuss things with the illiterate.

    #10319

    Brother JO
    Member

    Please cite your lore backing for Yaka and Tempest being human? Sure, they LOOK human in their portraits… but that doesn’t mean anything when there are others that also look human but are explicitly something else like an elemental spirit.
    Yaka hates humans, and even judging from appearance, it’s much more likely that he’s an azrac. But azrac mythology credits him with creating the azracs, just like the tigrans – so if he did create them, he’s not one himself. So what is he really? He could be another fire spirit, like Karissa. His azracs had pointed ears, so maybe he’s actually an elf under that regalia. Maybe he really is a human with intense hatred of his own people. Maybe he actually WAS a godling, even if his power was only on a level that mortals could reach through wizardly studies. Who knows? We don’t.

    Tempest, again, has nothing to tie him to humans. He’s probably another nature spirit, except representing air itself rather than Artica’s ice. But again, we don’t know. He could be a dragon himself that took human-like form as a lark. He’s that crazy.

    Karissa, Yaka, Tempest, Mab and others it’s not sure what they are, they might be some sort of spirits or gods, or they might be just a mortal who become immortal with ways of wizard, whatever they are, one thing is for sure:

    They are not from same race they rule. And this strengthens my point that races/empires doesn’t have to be lead by a ruler of same race.

    Basically, of the original twelve wizards of the Wizard’s Circle, only about half were of one of the defined races.

    Yes, only about half of them were from their defined races. That’s the point.

    Non-Circle wizards are of defined races, but both they and the Circle wizards of defined race overwhelmingly act in the capacity of leaders of their races. Using the examples you listed: Merlin, at least in the Wizard’s Throne, was acting in the capacity of a human king, and while he lead armies of other races at times, that’s through lending his magical skills and tactical acumen in support of allies, or making use of troops lent to him by an ally to achieve a goal that humans weren’t suited for. All of his actions are in support of ensuring the survival of his human subjects. Julia is invariably leading elves, she’s just a very skilled diplomat and has plenty of non-elven allies (and no, I don’t think there’s any time in either campaign where she starts with evil races – that’s what Meandor’s for – although her diplomatic abilities helps her to be able to keep them on-side when she does acquire some). Phobius and Vorsar were most DEFINITELY leaders of a human empire – just one that, like the Commonwealth would later, had other races as mercenaries and second-class citizens. And Symon was an outcast, an exception that proves the rule.

    Not sure, everybody acted like those who are loyal to them are like their own sons or daughters. Look at Mab, look at Yaka. Mab is not goblin but she acts like she is their mother, so does Yaka acts like this for tigrans.

    Also I’m pretty sure after 2nd fire scenario, it was not about human race anymore and it was more like saving the world thing with Merlin.

    Julia didn’t start with any evil races true, but in campaign sometimes evil aligned troops joined her with dialogue.Neutral troops joining her is even more common.Especially frostlings are propably fallen madly love with Julia.

    So our little Symon is outcast.So what? Anybody can leave their race for greater good,ambition, or because it suits them, or they can just get kicked out like little symon. I don’t understand why we should act like this is a VERY RARE case(okay that’s not ordinary, but we’re not playing ordinary characters anyway, otherwise we would be playing that crossbowman instead of Warlord) that you can’t have a goblin leader rules elves. I don’t care how that goblin gained elves’ trust, I care that I can play him.

    A rule that is set by pretty much every other wizard that has a well-defined race. Amber, Anon, Arachna, Fangir, Marinus, Nekron, Perses, Serena, the orc wizard whose name I can’t remember… all invariably behaving as leaders of nations of their races when they appear. Meandor is also a Dark Elf leader, he’s just one that also uses undead when it’s convenient. Even in AoW2, most wizards who had a defined race – were leading nations of, or primarily composed of, that race. Even when they had other races in their empire, it was typical for their own race to have a “first among equals” status at least, and in some cases (the Empire of Phobius, for instance) other races were explicitly second-class citizens.

    Sorry bro, Wizards that are not of the same race act like that too. Look at Mab,Yaka,Tempest and others.All of them are jackasses.

    Also mind you, Meandor is undead. Undead dark elf 😛 That’s why he leads undead.

    So yeah, leaders that are NOT representing their own race are a minority even in AoW2. The bigger point – and part of the reason why it’s different to the class argument previously – is that it’s based around the perceptions of the creature lair, neutral city, or other diplomatic partner. Even if you are an outcast leading a different race… you say you’re different to all the other humans? Prove it.

    WHaa?? You just said only half of the circle wizards were from their own race.

    Basically, of the original twelve wizards of the Wizard’s Circle, only about half were of one of the defined races.

    Circle of Wizards were all the wizards in AoW2, and then other wizards like ambir,vorsar who are from their own race added in SM. Sorry but you’re twisting the details here. Leaders that are not representing their race are not minority.

    1-)Soo you’re a human leader leading humans, and I’m mayor of human city. Are you a good ruler? Prove it.

    2-)So you’re an elven ruler who leads humans,hmmm humans must trust you enough to make you their leader, but I don’t know you, prove it to me you will treat us like your own men.

    I think second option was a bit more prestigious.Don’t you think?

    As for getting the non-traditional comboes: I’m not saying they should be unreachably difficult. I’d be quite happy with it being a small difference in the greater scheme of things (I know I used the terms ‘large bonus’ and ‘large penalty’ in previous posts, but these were purely relative to smaller bonuses and penalties). However, I think it’s appropriate to have some encouragement to forming lore-appropriate alliances over more unusual ones.

    But the problem is your so called “encouragement” is creating discouragement against other alliance possibilities.

    The other thing that I notice you completely ignored in your last post is the point that favoured combinations are going to arise anyway, due to some combinations having greater synergy than others. I’d much rather err on the side of the most common alliances being those that are supported by the game’s story.

    I won’t be so sure. Some dwellings are higher level and some dwellings are lower.Higher dwellings require more and harder quest, while low ones require easier and less quest.SO it will be up to players to stay without alliance for long and then gain alliance of powerfull faction mid/end-game advantage, or get allied with a weaker faction to gain early advantage.

    Even if favoured combinations are going to raise, what you suggest will limit race selection for a class.

    Let’s say fairy dwelling goes best with Warlord. Fairies favour elves more than other races, so you have to choose elven warlord everytime you want to play warlord. But if there is no bonus or penality you can chose whatever race’s warlord. Your suggestion is just limiting this.

    Why are you so stubborn about getting this idea as default option? If you want to play it with bonuses , ask for a modder to create a mod for you, or open the map before you play and add bonuses to dwellings for certain races and then play the map.

    #10320

    Brother JO
    Member

    Yaka is a human(or god, or tigrans think he is a god while he is just a human wizard)- he ruled tigrans

    He made it up. Tempest might be human, but Yaka seems to have been around long before humans came to continent, since Azracs considered him their god and they’d been around long before humans came to continent. The devs could alway retcon something in, but Yaka you might have a better basis for calling primordial (though, as Merlin says, just a wizard). They’re called Wizards for a reason. I wouldn’t consider them to be “elemental spirits”.

    Is the sentence above yours means “Yaka is human for sure, or Yaka might be human,god, or human who tricked tigrans that he is a god.”?

    Don’t twist things.

    Artica is a Frost Queen. The scenarios “Fire and Ice” portraying Artica and Karissa as elemental spirits are hyberbole… While AOW1 scenarios are included in the timeline, I don’t consider AOW2 scenarios to be canon unless otherwise stated.

    Artica is Frost Queen, yes I never stated it that she was something else.Though I count frost witches and frostlings as the same. Eventhough Frost Witches are Nymphs but frostling version.(Yes, Frost Witches being some sort of Nymph was written in lore somewhere in AoW1 or AoWSM)

    #10321

    BlaneckW
    Member

    The High Elves are not the same culture as Wood Elves in any case. It might make sense for Wood Elves to get better relations with Fey if they are a minority on the map, for instance.

    #10322

    BlaneckW
    Member

    Is the sentence above yours means “Yaka is human for sure, or Yaka might be human,god, or human who tricked tigrans that he is a god.”?

    If AOW2 Yaka is the Yaka who created the Azracs, he is still a wizard (as per AOW2 retcon), but then there isn’t any way he is human unless he came over a long time before the rest of the humans. Being clear-minded, I have no need for them to fill in the gap. It doesn’t bother me.

    #10342

    Brother JO
    Member

    If AOW2 Yaka is the Yaka who created the Azracs, he is still a wizard (as per AOW2 retcon), but then there isn’t any way he is human unless he came over a long time before the rest of the humans. Being clear-minded, I have no need for them to fill in the gap. It doesn’t bother me.

    Well,he is dead anyway so there is no need for filling the gap ,yes.( in O’neron’s third map O’neron destroyed all of them right?)

    #10356

    So more on Dragons here: What do you guys think the “tactical roles” of the Fire and Frost dragons are? We’ve already seen a version of the bone dragon, that seems to be a medium type attacker meant to be used in pairs, or perhaps threes, to take out mid level stacks.

    Do you think the frost dragon, that we know is weaker than the Fire, Obsidian, and Golden dragons, is weaker than even the bone dragon? if so, what is its role? Sort of a glass cannon with its stopping people in place breath? And the Fire Dragon, does it have better fire, is it equal to the Golden Dragon, but more focused on pure aggressive attacking, or what? How do you think they’ll differentiate it from the other dragons? It will have to have some distinctive feature as the most “generically dragon like” of the set, like how Red Dragons got regeneration in SM if you built the spawning pool.

    #10365

    Draxynnic
    Member

    My gut feeling:

    Fire dragons are the pure bruisers of the lot. You get a fire dragon when you don’t want anything fancy, just a flying firebreathing giant reptile to massacre your enemies.

    Frost dragons are more fragile, but act as disablers – you can use them to freeze enemies so your other units can kill those enemies more easily.

    #10369

    BlaneckW
    Member

    Have them bring back the pseudo-dragon of the lizards.

    #10381

    Commraid
    Member

    I know it’s picky but is that a spelling mistake?

    “and my might bone dragon rises to play that role,”

    Surely they meant “mighty” instead :/

    That aside I would prefer if all the dragons were balanced just like the spheres of magic and not put into “tiers” where the lower would become obsolete. As a Frostling fan I found it unfair that the ice dragon was always inferior (at least in AOW1). Could Wyverns be used for low level dragon units instead?

    It is good to see more dragon presence though. Maybe Dragonslaying units will have more of a place now if more dragons are roaming around on maps. It might also be an idea to give Giants Dragonslaying (or vice versa) seeing as they are mortal enemies.

    #10667

    So do you guys think that the Faerie Dragon is definitely out now? I rather liked that unit with its teleportation and whimsical chaos breath.

    #10694

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Does seem likely, although they may have made it a top unit for the Sylvan Court instead. Even then, though, I would have expected it to rate a mention – after all, not every giant in the giant lore journal is typically available from the Giant’s Keep.

    #12710

    NayyarRashid
    Member

    awesome dragons…….. a couple of more would have been a lot better like in the Shadow Magic…
    please more dragons……

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