Dev Journal: Improving Race Variety & Starting Perks

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Dev Journal: Improving Race Variety & Starting Perks

This topic contains 165 replies, has 66 voices, and was last updated by  vault101tunnelsnake 7 years, 5 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 61 through 90 (of 166 total)
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  • #134449

    Gloweye
    Member

    you could lower pike base defense by 1 and/or raise infantry defense by 1, to make sure they’ll both be having their own uses – this would just make infantry straight up better against non-cavalry.

    #134450

    Sindir
    Member

    oh Triumph, i just love you guys ^^

    to bring back the nodes-convert spell -> great
    and more Race variety is always a good idea 😉
    And of cause the butcher,perfect!
    But if you should decideto give all races one new unit,
    than the one for the dwarves have to be the molerider,
    i miss him so much 🙁

    #134451

    JPoll
    Member

    @bandc You can press space bar to skip the cutscene at the beginning of a battle. 🙂

    #134453

    ESCL
    Member

    Love the Butcher, wonderful having him back. I would however agree to the opinion of nerfing the Skewer instead of removning it and place it in the barracks – with Evolve.

    These news almost brought a tear to my eyes – I really should care less but you are doing such a terrific job. Keep it up, I’ll keep throwing money at every game and dlc you release.

    And lastly, I also do hope that I’ll see the Mole Rider again before you are done. Hopefully with an extra T3, or equivalent balancing by other means, for every race. If that happens – I’ll propbably buy the game and dlc all over again just to have a way of throwing more money at you.

    #134464

    I definately like all the proposed changes! Especially the ones for specialization and leader editor interface!
    And thanks for the butcher!

    #134465

    bam65
    Member

    Things are looking up for this game.

    #134466

    sharky
    Member

    @bloodybattlebrain What you suggested is actually largely along the lines of what I had in mind. I don’t like sharing, but I had some overhauls in mind that might change the game dramatically.
    Mainly a split between the production buildings functioning.
    Unit production speed would no longer be relegated to the workshops, but just to the barracks and its upgrades. However the workshops line would still make the weaponry/armor and other buildings.
    So a city would actually have a cache of goods which in turn can be stolen, thus you (can) have a split between production cities and unit training ones and a treasury of usable goods that can be used to make units.

    I think the evolve function is excellent but needs to be scrapped and moved to city barracks as ranks to be trained on blank slate recruits that can be trained to be any medal tier 1, or used to make a copper medal tier 3 for example depending on what armor and weaponry you hand them coupled with time trained, what class, empire upgrades, or race they have.
    This would need to be coupled with a complete overhaul of global assault which imho is FUBAR, and there needs to be some kind of synergy again to train anything but class specific units for a class that is not rogue or warrior.

    I was going to introduce these ideas later with severe unit ability overhaul that includes an actual guard function for basic sword and board infantry, a buff that works like the “absorb pain” ability but instead could make the guarding/defending unit share damage taken by 50% with their target with both their defensive stats and added together and split in half and both units counting as defending. With the core defensive “sword and board” units changed to have less attack then currently and more hp and armor.
    So they could effectively let archers shoot and then defend with their defensive stats split.
    Those changes I had in mind are quite severe and I would have to dedicate more time then I have now running a household and managing kids :O. I hope I got the point across with all the distraction going on here.

    With that I was considering severe overland movement changes per category of units, to really rock scissor paper the shit out of slow heavy armed shield infantry, vs light or heavy cavalry, archers and skirmishers, and the marauder ,scout, and a shock trooper class I had in mind who will create a distinction between outdoors and fast terrain ignoring, as opposed to heavily armored needing roads and excelling at defensive positions, or clearing a mythical dwelling etc.

    Sieges would get more depth because the lighter classes can retreat quicker, or you can commit with heavier slower units. Both city units and sieging units will lose a percentage of health every turn that they are on, or adjacent to, city hexes. With the lighter raiding classes losing less HP per turn. Both siegers and besieged can be healed with a supply caravan which is produced by the population growth buildings of another city. Besieged cities pop growth and supply units production is halted. Setting up a siege would actually cost a turn or so, and after so many turns I’d like to see added siege equipment. Losing a siege should stop retreating units from healing for several turns.
    Maybe someday we will see castles which would be possible with these mechanics I mentioned, in the current setting they would be overpowered.
    I’d like to share my infantry concepts a bit more since they are vague even though I have clear cut ideas, written down some even.

    #134480

    BandC
    Member

    @bandc You can press space bar to skip the cutscene at the beginning of a battle. :)

    Thanks JPoll. I know about the space bar short cut. The thing is I do this dozens of time every time I play. I think it deserves an option to by pass that.

    #134485

    Sifer2
    Member

    This is why I hope this isn’t going to be the last expansion. This game is already good, but feels like it needs just a bit more refinement to be a classic that people are still playing years later. Getting more content along with updates like this I think brings it closer to that level.

    The improvements towards making the races play different look great. I hope we see more done to change around some of the economy balance, and empire management in a future update too.

    #134495

    I second every motion related to supporting more content from the game, if they keep up top quality dlc and updates like this its impossible to resist.
    Also Tigrans and Shadow demons for future dlc pretty please.

    #134515

    Zathrendar
    Member

    Yes, the firecats must return, with their Lord, Yaka. Shadow demons I am less keen on but they’d be a nice addition, I suppose.

    Awesome,but,are we going to get a new race?I hardly belive coz of necro class,but i’d like to see shadow demons or dark elves soooo much :( .

    I too would like to see dark elves make a comeback, however I wonder if this couldn’t perhaps be done as the Necromancer’s class units, considering that the elven race is now under one banner again. Undead elves could simply acquire the DE skin.

    Actually i agree with Epaminondas, every race has only one base tier 3 unit, one more for everyone would be better, but it would also be pretty difficult to balance.

    If the devs are actually considering more additions i don’t lose anything by posting a few suggestions:

    -Elves get a tier 3 archer.<br>
    -Humans and draconians could get new tier 3 casters<br>
    -Dwarves get a unique tier 3 siege machine.<br>
    – Like Epaminondas said the butcher could be a unique tier 3 pikeman for goblins instead of ditching the skewer.<br>
    – orcs could get tier 3 cavalry or maybe unique tier 3 irregular unit with unique bonuses.<br>
    – i really don’t know about halflings, maybe they could get a big fireworks machine with aoe damage, or a bard-like shooter to compensate their brew brothers being short ranged.

    I realise that elves are portrayed as archers par excellence (though historically they’ve had some pretty good cavalry too, both DE and WE), however don’t they embody magic in the whole tech vs magic struggle, and wouldn’t a t3 caster therefore suit them best?

    I am very glad, though, that they are re-focusing the impact race has on your units. I’d like for it to mean more than just different skins on units, and at the moment whilst there are some differences, they’re not too pronounced. I’d certainly favour the addition of a second t3 unit and maybe, in the elves’ case, an archer that could even be a fusion of a caster and archer, one for instance that uses enchanted arrows and spells like Blur.

    #134519

    Epaminondas
    Member

    This is why I hope this isn’t going to be the last expansion. This game is already good, but feels like it needs just a bit more refinement to be a classic that people are still playing years later. Getting more content along with updates like this I think brings it closer to that level.

    The improvements towards making the races play different look great. I hope we see more done to change around some of the economy balance, and empire management in a future update too.

    Completely agree with all of the above. I am just hoping that the dev hints that this may be the last DLC is nothing but a capitalist ploy for more immediate sales! 😉

    #134532

    Draxynnic
    Member

    @ravenholme: Not really. The competition is between the tier 1 units here – a goblin player that has access to Marauders and Skewers isn’t going to be deterred from building Skewers if they’re better than Marauders regardless of the potential for Butchers down the track – the Skewers are the best option they have now. This goes doubly if there’s a skewer – butcher evolve mechanism (which would make sense).

    Personally, I like pikemen being where they are. Historically, pikemen were a more advanced troop type that eventually replaced more conventional infantry altogether (both greatswords and sword-and-board were tried as anti-pike units, and both were ultimately phased out when it was discovered that more pikemen were better). Pikemen are a cheap but advanced unit that punch well above their upkeep against many higher-tier units. That’s a fitting place to be in.

    I could see skewers knocked back to barracks… If coupled with a substantial nerf. Possibly a couple of others. But I wouldn’t want to see it become the default.

    #134536

    Ricminator
    Member

    Or you can leave the pikemen where they are now and unlock the butcher at the goblin t3 building. Afterall that is what you use him for: to kill t3 fliers/cavs/heroes better (at least that is what I am assuming).

    So early game the skewer comes from the war hall with evolve maybe and later when the t3 comes out you can build your butchers there.

    #134539

    Harrison
    Member

    My suggestion about the nodes. (I hope, this message would be readed.)
    Now, for me – this is only source of mana and nothing. I suggest it:
    If you have air magic and you have air node – you get power bonus for air magic (for example on 5% for each node) If you have 2 air node, you get bonus for power 10% etc.
    And also other thing, you get bonus for spells for air magic. For example – some magic N cost 10 spell points, if you have one air node – this cost would be 9, because air node make bonus for air spell cost. If you have 3 air nodes, you have +3 bonus for spell points i.e. cost of magic N would be have cost 7, not 10.

    #134542

    Harrison
    Member

    UPD

    So:

    Goblins – tier 2 anti-cav
    Haflings – tier 1 Cavalry
    ….
    Draconians – risk becoming the vanilla faction lol, as, apart from fast healing, they don;t get anything that is specific to them.

    Maybe ice draconians warriors? This may be get, if your city have Heart of Ice (or how it called) :p
    For example this units have fire and ice defence, or have ice defence but no have defence from fire. And they have white skin colour. 🙂

    #134567

    Zathrendar
    Member

    You would think draconians would have an affinity for fliers.

    Regarding frostlings, wouldn’t mind seeing them return alongside Tigran, the game would be pretty much complete then. It would make it harder to balance out all these races and also diversify them but so far the devs are doing an excellent job of it.

    I do hope that the High elven units (given that this my favoured race, after all) will get a good, compelling racial power. The support units gaining healing powers could be one such approach, given how they’ve been painted as menders of the world in previous AoW2 games. Another approach could be to return their predilection for using “faerie magic” , but I think that would warrant too many diffuse abilities for each unit type.

    #134569

    Ravenholme
    Member

    @draxynnic

    Well, I disagree, because I see the unit type relationships as (or should be as) a Rock-Paper-Scissors-esque relationship (For the bog standard racial units, of which every race has one) – Archers > Infantry > Pikemen > Cavalry > Archers (And Infantry, as Cavalry are a T2 so can be expected to be a bit more effective). Pikemen being earlier would provide a nice counter to Cavalry heavy strategies if you pull ahead of your opponent by that much.

    Thus the only thing that would need to be buffed is, generally, giving T1 Infantry the ability to take Pikemen in a one on one match up, and then suddenly the composition of your armies matters a lot more at the T1 level and doesn’t favour massing which ever Tier unit you get your hands on that your enemy doesn’t have a counter to.

    #134578

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I don’t think more (as opposed to different) racial units would be so great: a second T3? Isn’t that what Class is for?

    #134582

    Historically, pikemen were a more advanced troop type that eventually replaced more conventional infantry altogether (both greatswords and sword-and-board were tried as anti-pike units, and both were ultimately phased out when it was discovered that more pikemen were better).

    The mediterranean phalanx units of pre-roman times disagree.

    #134588

    So early game the skewer comes from the war hall with evolve maybe and later when the t3 comes out you can build your butchers there.

    I disagree. it will work well where it is now – as a tier 2 unit, and the perfect counter to Cavalry spam, but if you look at their stats, they will be vulnerable to range, and support units (9 resistance..ugh) which are in turn countered by Cavalry, who get countered by Pike.

    It could be beautiful…

    The Butcher works well in it’s curren t proposed location due to it becoming a dominant t2. If you place it in T3 it will be subpar, and the point is to give Goblins a relative oomph.

    I second the idea of giving Goblins their skewer back, at barracks, but a nerfed version of the current thing, so the whole lore entry about the Skewers being annoyed at being picked on by other races, and then choosing to become Butchers, makes alot more sense.

    To be honest, I’d almost be willing to let go of the Marauder if needed, but I do think that Goblins having 3 barracks units instead of 2, but all of them being really sub-par, would further make them a very unique race :).

    It also fits in with the Goblin mentality, which is “stab the other guy first” and not “let’s have a fair fight!”

    The mediterranean phalanx units of pre-roman times disagree.

    Well when the Romans faced off against the Phalanx, said Phalanxes lacked the excellent Cavalry of Alexander’s time, and were unwieldy. When they did actually engage frontally, e.g. the battle of Cynosphalae the legions had a hard time.

    And Pydna as well.

    As much a failure of leadership and flexibility.

    In any case, Drax was talking about medieval times, where pike based units dominated rather well until the advent of massed firearms. Indeed, many Historians consider the ubiquity of Pike units to be the defining factor in the decline of the Knight as a unit and as a social class, and not the advent of firearms.

    #134637

    Eomolch
    Member

    Really looking forward to this! (as well as the necromancer class itself ofc, still keeping my fingers crossed for a return of the death damage channel)

    I like especially the idea for defensive strike since it could make dwarves finally more interesting for me (just my personal preference). I’m assuming the defensive strike will only allow for one attack regardless of the remaining action points, is that right?

    Battle Cry also sounds like a nice new toy for orc leaders to play around with. I know the description clearly states +3 melee physical strength but how about making it grant +3 physical strength in general and giving it to the razorbows (or as an alternative to orc hunters)? Would that make them too strong?

    Also if every race will get another active (or maybe also passive) ability of that kind, will they be added as learnable abilities for heros of the respective race?

    #134652

    In any case, Drax was talking about medieval times, where pike based units dominated rather well until the advent of massed firearms. Indeed, many Historians consider the ubiquity of Pike units to be the defining factor in the decline of the Knight as a unit and as a social class, and not the advent of firearms

    Well knights kept going for a very long time (there is a reason why all the British civil war commanders are sirs, and you can see this noble bias in the military even up to the 18th and 19th century for the junkers), but the armored man at arms became less armored, and then not armored at all (with cuirasses coming back and forth into fashion).

    What seems to have happened is that in the late 15th and early 16th centuries, the swiss figured out how to make offensive (i.e. mobile) pike squares work, and they won some great victories against other armies (with some losses as well).

    In response, the wealthiest men at arms became super heavy cavalry with pistol proof and musket resistant armor (also very strong protection against arrows), barded horses, and very long lances (held in two hands because the shield became unnecessary, or reserved for lesser horsemen).

    This, of course, was very expensive, and not all men at arms (or even knights) could afford the full armor or best horses, so the formation was still somewhat gunpowder vulnerable, although it could fight pikemen well (see the The Battle of Marignano).

    However, later in the 16th century, demi lancers (who had unarmored horses, but wore full or 3/4 plate) and pistol using cavalry (the original black riders) came into their own. They could fire pistols at a longer range than the lances, roughly 40 feet, making holes in the ranks (either stunning the well armored men/horses, or killing the less well armored ones), and then swarming the remainder.

    Gustav Adolphus then found that pistols, fired as a shock weapon, followed by sword charges, worked wonders in the 17th century. After all, no pike is 40 feet long.

    By that time, increasingly common gunpowder weapons (and effective firing techniques) made pikemen less and less useful, and caused armor levels on horsemen to go way down: the best thing was to close quickly.

    #134661

    UltraDD
    Member

    Its kind of great to learn history stuff just from playing the game. The other day was shocked at how effective pistol cavalary are at killing pikemen spam. It’d be kinda funny if a race had swiss style best pikemen -Although humans seem to already fit this.

    #134667

    It’d be kinda funny if a race had swiss style best pikemen -Although humans seem to already fit this.

    Or Draconians, as their Pikemen can charge. Underrated unit.

    #134673

    UltraDD
    Member

    It isn’t that chargers are bad -They are great flankers and scare archers away. Its just the human ones have the least problem fighting all types of troops.

    P.S. Pikemen in general need some good abilities when they get ranks. Most of them get armor piercing, while other units get active abilities!

    #134691

    happyworld
    Member

    All these changes look great. So do the suggestions by players.

    I would like access to more specialisations.
    Either before the game (choose 5) or during, by finding locations, building upgrades, or defeating enemies.

    #134693

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Ferrus_Animus wrote:

    The mediterranean phalanx units of pre-roman times disagree.

    Well when the Romans faced off against the Phalanx, said Phalanxes lacked the excellent Cavalry of Alexander’s time, and were unwieldy. When they did actually engage frontally, e.g. the battle of Cynosphalae the legions had a hard time.

    And Pydna as well.

    As much a failure of leadership and flexibility.

    In any case, Drax was talking about medieval times, where pike based units dominated rather well until the advent of massed firearms. Indeed, many Historians consider the ubiquity of Pike units to be the defining factor in the decline of the Knight as a unit and as a social class, and not the advent of firearms.

    The interaction between the phalanx and the legion is an interesting one.

    One of the complexities there is that, as BBB observes, the phalanxes of the time of the Roman absorption of Greece were not what they were during Alexander’s time. First, because the training had slipped in standards – good pikemen generally need more training to act as effective pikemen rather than as infantry that simply happen to be armed with spears, and to be able to remain mobile while maintaining the formation rather than being a slow-moving and easily outmaneouvered block (part of the reason why I see pikemen as being a more advanced unit). Secondly, despite this decline in standards, the Greeks had bought into the idea of their phalanx being a super unit, and supporting units such as cavalry and light troops fell out of favour.

    The problem is, of course, that pike ARE a unit that requires supporting troops. When pike blocks became common again around the Renaissance, generals at the time realised what Alexander did centuries before – pike are just one component of a successful army, and you still need cavalry as well as ranged troops, or you risk having your pikemen shot up.

    In legionnaires, on the other hand, the Romans had a versatile troop type that doesn’t have a direct counterpart in AoW3 (basically, shielded infantry with a throw spear attack – probably closest to orc spearmen, but with Armored instead of Sprint and better melee fighting capability), able to fight effectively as either heavy infantry or irregulars. They beat the phalanxes basically by refusing to engage until the phalanx was effectively already defeated by a barrage of pilae.

    Additionally, to more directly address the contention:

    The evolution of the Greek phalanx itself actually demonstrates my point. Before the adoption of the sarissa in Macedonia, the Greek phalanx effectively fought as shielded infantry in AoW3 terms – while they were armed with spears and they did make some use of their reach, phalanxes armed with dory and hoplon fought using shieldwall tactics rather than pike block tactics. So in context, the transition from dory and hoplon to sarissa and pelte in pre-Roman times is actually another example of pikemen being a more advanced troop type, mirroring the later replacement of more conventional forms of infantry with pike blocks around the Renaissance. It’s simply that people had forgotten the effectiveness of pikemen when used effectively (and/or had created a social structure where it was seen as undesirable to reinstate a form of fighting that allowed infantry with relatively cheap weapons to defeat heavy cavalry) until history repeated itself and pike tactics were rediscovered by the Swiss.

    #134708

    Garresh
    Member

    @BBB

    Marauders are really good actually. Theyre cheap, and get those nice defenses for such a small unit. I dont use them much these days, but theyre still really good.

    #134713

    Ricminator
    Member

    @BBB

    I don’t think the marauder should be sacrificed either.

    With the AoW t3 Phalanx you can engage an orc shock trooper or dwarven first born and win in a regular mixed combat, but the t1 (especially the goblin ones) really lack the hp to take the extra damage from fighting relatively ineffective. Plus the phalanx has a shield which helps too.

    So if the skewer is moved to the barracks that can definately work too I think (with a small nerf maybe).

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