Dev Journal: Improving Race Variety & Starting Perks

We’ve moved over to the paradox forums. Please come visit us there to discuss:
You can still read the collective wisdom - and lolz - of the community here, but posting is no longer possible.

Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Dev Journal: Improving Race Variety & Starting Perks

This topic contains 165 replies, has 66 voices, and was last updated by  vault101tunnelsnake 7 years, 7 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 121 through 150 (of 166 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #134992

    UltraDD
    Member

    The suggestion for wild mastery research still has a lot more benefit than other masteries. The others give +5 research for their respective nodes, Unless the other mastery dumped mana into converting nodes wild mastery has a good chance to randomly spaz out of control.

    Maybe have it pick a random favored node type and give the mana and research bonuses from them, and applies the reduced mana gain from opposing node.

    #134995

    Kaiosama TLJ
    Member

    Training Regimen: This is a relatively early tech, but is one of those mandatory techs that warlords need. If it shows up, great, it can be researched in like 7 turns before bonuses, but the fact that its is delayed contributes pretty heavily to the warlord earlygame struggle. I would like to see this unlocked at start.

    Animistic Knowledge and Arcane Study: They’re going to get researched anyways, but the relatively aggressive pacing of AOW3 makes these techs kind of a “filler” tech.

    Steam Powered: Another resource tech I think should be moved into perma-unlock status.

    Courtesan Ambassadors: Wait, no. I see you rolling your eyes. Come back here! Those of you who are familiar with my reputation and opinion of this tech know I find it rather frustrating, but the thing is that while this tech doesn’t contribute much after early game, it can actually be a *really* nice boost…IF you get it before you make contact with cities. If any tech should be started with, this would be the one.

    Order of Templar Knights: Devout just has too much synergy with the amazing Mark of the Heretic, among other things. Should be unlocked at start.

    Do not worry about you opinion on Courtesan Ambassadors being biased, you have a point because Folk Hero is free and also does the same thing + cheaper independents.

    Can agree on your other examples too, especially Order of Templar Knights.

    #134996

    Garresh
    Member

    Well lategame there’s not much reason you *wouldn’t* pour mana into converting nodes. Unless you can think of a way to allow Wild Mastery to scale with time, I can’t think of a good way to make it work. Thouhg I’d accept going down to +10 max.

    #134997

    Sounds like a very old suggestion for the rogue where he could bribe Brigand Camps, found new ones, and sent them to a target area on the map.

    Hmmm..wonder who came up with that…

    #135003

    Good ideas

    Not sure if making class passives pre-researched is ideal instead of improving the research system itself, it seems like a roundabout way to address a different problem that also affects other things. I like where this is going, but and it might help, but it doesn’t really address the tech system overall. You are still going to get clogged up with situational choices that don’t help a particular situation, and tactical spells will still almost always be a worse choice than strategic upgrades (since only your leader gets them and you can only cast one spell per combat turn) until they only cost a turn or two to research, if even then. It helps, but it doesn’t directly address the tech system issues. Having the player able to choose some low tier techs worth a preset sum total research value to start with would help a bit more, and could even be extended to non-class specs for the same reason. You could limit choices by spec, so one or two techs per class, and one per spec pool, or something like that. Basically the same thing Garresh already said, just applied more generally since all research has the same problem. MoM did exactly this and it made character creation choices feel much more meaningful, which is exactly what the devs said they wanted in this very dev journal.

    There have been other threads on the same topic of research that had other good suggestions as well. Someone suggested an option to reroll your spellbook which could be interesting. I think there was also the idea of having research points split each turn between “left” and “right” side tech options so you would research one of each at a time (left tend to be passive upgrades, right tend to be mana using spells). This would mean players would still be advancing up the class tree and getting those crucial empire upgrades and casting points etc, while still getting some interesting toys to play with in the game.

    #135004

    Garresh
    Member

    Well the issue isn’t that the research system is “wrong” exactly. But compared to AoW2, research controls not just spells, but also important empire-wide techs. And given the sheer number of options available, you can occasionally get screwed. The worst one for me is that damn Storm Magic research, which has made me disavow death mastery now and forever. But some other classes can get screwed on basic upgrades. The worst is warlord, but rogues have that annoying issue where courtesan ambassadors is a “now or never” skill that either has to be rushed, or else it just becomes wasted research later on. And those research boosting techs that druid and sorc have are interesting and thematic, but ultimately kind of self-defeating due to the initial cost. At least for druids. For sorc its pretty cheap and they’re OP so I’d be willing to tell them to shove off and be happy they got channeled. 😉

    The best way I can sum it up is that spells being random is totally okay, but passives need to be a bit more stable.

    #135006

    Gloweye
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Gloweye wrote:</div>
    Sounds like a very old suggestion for the rogue where he could bribe Brigand Camps, found new ones, and sent them to a target area on the map.

    Hmmm..wonder who came up with that…

    IIRC, you had the bribe to non-aggression idea, and I was the guy who expanded that towards creating new camps and sending them to war in your place.

    #135012

    NuMetal
    Member

    Seeing as we’re adding some “unlocked at start” techs, I think it might be time to consider moving some of the class empire upgrades to be unlocked at start. There are a number of “mandatory” techs which affect certain classes.

    Well, the “unlocked at start” techs all come from specializations and not from classes.
    I wouldn’t like to change that because implementing your suggestions might 1. upset the balance and 2. make the classes less replayable/ have less variety.

    #135029

    I like this idea of a preset number of “points” whether expressed in gold/mana or whatever that you then use to customise your start.

    I outlined such an idea for choosing your starting army composition, so it could be extended to include the option to buy a starting tech.

    It was basically this:

    every player starts with 700 gold and 50 mana.

    You choose what units you start with, their cost being the same as they are ingame. So, you can’t start with more than 1 tier 3 unit.

    Now add to that the option to spend those resources to get a starting tech, e.g. as a Warlord, decide to start with few troops but training regimen.

    Pros and cons.

    #135034

    ESCL
    Member

    A really good idea that, could be implemented as a last step of leader creation. Thus, your choices being saved with your leader, you wouldn’t have to waste time deciding what to pick before every game.

    I’m all for things mean less focus on luck and more on strategy. Sure, it might mean extending the gap between new and experienced players further but I don’t see that as a major problem – and it’s not that fun winnig because the opponent got dealt a terrible hand.

    #135035

    Motasa
    Member

    I like this idea of a preset number of “points” whether expressed in gold/mana or whatever that you then use to customise your start.

    I outlined such an idea for choosing your starting army composition, so it could be extended to include the option to buy a starting tech.

    It was basically this:

    every player starts with 700 gold and 50 mana.

    You choose what units you start with, their cost being the same as they are ingame. So, you can’t start with more than 1 tier 3 unit.

    Now add to that the option to spend those resources to get a starting tech, e.g. as a Warlord, decide to start with few troops but training regimen.

    Pros and cons.

    I like this idea. It is reminiscent of transferring units and items from one scenario to the next in the campaigns of the original Age of Wonders. Heck, I like customization prior to the start of a game, like in Civilization: Beyond Earth.

    Aside from that, I agree with Garresh that certain empire wide upgrades are really mandatory from the early game on. Seeing animistic knowledge pop-up at turn 30+, horrible. The same goes with most of the ones mentioned (i.e. Courtesan Ambassadors, Training Regimen).

    #135212

    SaintTodd
    Member

    How about this crazy idea: allow the skipping of research. If a research option comes up that you don’t want, you could choose to skip it, and never be able to research it all. Since there’s a bonus for completing all your research options, the game would have to keep track of the value of what you skipped, and not award the bonus until you have the points to pay for what you didn’t actually research. Does that make sense?

    #135216

    I like this idea of a preset number of “points” whether expressed in gold/mana or whatever that you then use to customise your start.

    I outlined such an idea for choosing your starting army composition, so it could be extended to include the option to buy a starting tech.

    It was basically this:

    every player starts with 700 gold and 50 mana.

    You choose what units you start with, their cost being the same as they are ingame. So, you can’t start with more than 1 tier 3 unit.

    Now add to that the option to spend those resources to get a starting tech, e.g. as a Warlord, decide to start with few troops but training regimen.

    Pros and cons.

    This is the best idea, it really is. I can’t stress this enough.

    edit: although currently we already start with free techs, just random ones. Maybe just have two pools of resources, one of candles to pick your starting techs and one of gold/mana to pick starting units? I like the idea of sacrificing one for the other but it might be really hard to balance that, while two pools is what we get now, but with more player control.

    #135269

    Hello all!

    While we’re at it, perhaps its better to re-distribute the city bonuses, in order to:
    1) fit lore better 2) Not having to introduce a “new type” of bonus (=building cost reduction).

    My suggestion (I had already given this some thought earlier)

    – Dracs get GOLD (fits fantasy lore, and is fitting to meso-american style buildings of the dracs and the inevitable spanish conquerors hungry for gold (Eldorado, etc.)
    – The Draconian current MANA bonus is really more an Elf thing;
    – the Elf KNOWLEDGE bonus moves to the Humans;
    – the Human PRODUCTION bonus obviously should go to Dwarves

    The rest is fine, but Orcs *could* do nicely with NO bonus, imo. since:
    1) Orcs are already a strong race, need no buff
    2) Lore: illustrating a “lack of culture”. Because that is what these bonuses are actually about: they add a thin layer of “culture”.
    3) Mechanics: Nice assymmetry + there are no real “city variables” (gold, mana etc.) anymore to apply a bonus to (hence the discount on buildings for Dwarves and Orcs)

    So this would give:

    •Human Cities have +5 Knowledge
    •Goblin Cities have +20% population growth
    •High Elf Cities have +3 Mana
    •Dwarven Cities have +5 Production
    •Orc Cities have no bonus (due to “lack of culture”)
    •Draconian Cities have +5 Gold
    •Halfing Cities have +50 happiness

    Thoughts?

    #135270

    And another thought 😉

    Balance issue! Worried about this change:

    •Adept Of Air – Air Nodes generate an additional 5 mana per turn, Earth Nodes generate 5 less mana per turn.
    •Master Of Air – Air Nodes generate an additional 5 knowledge per turn. The player starts with a spell that allows them to transform neutral mana nodes into Air nodes.

    There will be NO more reason for choosing different schools over picking any kind of Mastery.

    Frex, consider taking both Water and Fire adept… and make another choice quickly 🙁

    The current balance is that a generalization will typically yield more mana.
    This already comes at a “cost” in duplication of, for example, damaging combat spells (Fireball, Stoning, etc.)

    So please keep adept mana bonuses as they are (+5 on type) the idea on Node conversion is nice though 🙂

    #135274

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    The points wouldn’t solve the problem (since you can’t pick all the techs you would want to be able to have or at least research immediately). I also like the randomness.

    Remember, the problem is twofold:
    1) Starting Techs
    2) Tech availability

    I would simply start with a random Class Tech value 60-80 plus one random Mastery spell value 60-80 (this would exclude stuff like Iron Grip and Lesser Elemental).

    I would also consider to add 2 entries on each page of the tech book. This would greatly increase probabilities for things to appear when they should, provided the game mechanics are adequate.
    As an alternative for adding entries, I like SaintTodd’s idea of SKIPPING/dismissing techs from the list.
    It gives you a certain kind of research control – but one that comes with the price of not being able to research the dismissed tech.
    The problem with this is, that this would seem very dangerous when you need a certain tech to get the next one, so you’d have to know what you are actually doing and which Techs build on each other, so while this would seem like a good idea it might fail due to the fact that there are not enough Techs you actually CAN skip where it matters, and that’s the Class tree.

    Another option might be to separate the Class Tree from the rest (avatar, specializations). A clearer distinction with a tad more stress on the Class stuff might help as well.

    #135277

    Motasa
    Member

    - Dracs get GOLD (fits fantasy lore, and is fitting to meso-american style buildings of the dracs and the inevitable spanish conquerors hungry for gold (Eldorado, etc.)
    – The Draconian current MANA bonus is really more an Elf thing;
    – the Elf KNOWLEDGE bonus moves to the Humans;
    – the Human PRODUCTION bonus obviously should go to Dwarves

    I think this fits lore more nicely as well. Aside from that, I think it could fit with how certain races work. Dwarves could use a tiny boost to production, since their units cost 10% more, hence 5 extra production can mean the difference when producing units with odd gold/mana costs of spending that extra turn or not. Since the High Elf cavalry costs gold AND mana, and this race is genuinely more magic orientated, I think a tiny mana boost fits the Elves better.

    #135279

    Kaiosama TLJ
    Member

    (…)

    So this would give:

    •Human Cities have +5 Knowledge
    •Goblin Cities have +20% population growth
    •High Elf Cities have +3 Mana
    •Dwarven Cities have +5 Production
    •Orc Cities have no bonus (due to “lack of culture”)
    •Draconian Cities have +5 Gold
    •Halfing Cities have +50 happiness

    Thoughts?

    I disagree with most of your suggestions because you only took in consideration general concepts of these races, not Age of Wonders specific concepts. Actually the current bonuses for the races fit AoW lore.

    Draconians aren’t mostly hungry for Gold like Dragons are, actually not all Dragons in AoW are for that matter. Some Dragons were afraid that Humans would eventually kill their kind entirely, so their gave some of their eggs to the Wizard Tempest to create a new race that is as capable as Humans to create industry and civilization and would (in the Dragons view at least) eventually destroy humankind. Due to being breed by magic Draconians have affinity for magic, hence the Mana bonus.

    Orcs don’t have a “lack of culture”, they actually have a “warrior culture”. And the proposal that they can build a cheaper Barracks fits.

    Even thought Elves have a affinity for magic that’s not everything they do. High Elves in AoW are the oldest race lore-wise and were also involved into the creation of Athla as we know it alongside the High Men/Archons. And due to their immortality they are the ones that normally have the most “experience”, hence their Knowledge bonus.

    Humans have an affinity with industry and expansion, hence the Production bonus. And while Dwarves are not like Humans in that regard they are still close, hence the proposal of a cheaper Siege Workshop.

    #135299

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Very minor admittance, is that in AoW2/SM, Elves(of both types) got bonus Mana, and Dracs got bonus Research. Production for Humans is still accurate, and the Production bonuses of Dwarves and Orcs is reasonably represented by the reduced cost of the buildings. With the Dwarven bonus leading to an actual increase in Production points, and the Orc bonus leading to faster access to unit production. Besides, in practice, the reduced cost of buildings is likely going to be noticeably more useful on average than the Human bonus to Production is right now.

    Personally, while I feel this is fine for Orcs(I think they actually do need something, rather than thinking they are a ‘strong race’), I have reservations about the Dwarven bonus. Largely due to the Trebuchet, barring certain changes to siege weaponry.

    Oh yeah, Goblins and Growth still fits, and while Halflings had bonus Gold, one could consider Happiness as a general ‘income boost’.

    #135306

    UltraDD
    Member

    Well aren’t orcs getting a warcry to give them a nice damage boost. Perhaps allowing them to kill archers in 2 melee swings instead of needing 3. That seems different enough from the rest :P.

    Actually I went back through AOW2 and realized something limited to it.
    Gold Mines gave bonus gold to earth sphere. Wind Mills gave bonus to Air. Normal mills gave water sphere, while fire gave it from furances. Subtle tiny difference :P. -If someone is curious, the very first map in AOW2 displays this as a tutorial page when you capture the goldmine in it.

    Edit : Actually went quickly through the tutorial and realized they gave double income for their respective structure.. NOT so subtle lol.

    #135348

    sharky
    Member

    I like and dislike your idea bloodybattlebrain. The reason I would stick with my own as stated earlier is because in a situation where a preset number of points can be spent on units and research it would become harder to balance imho which creates more of a workload without a serious pay off.
    I could see being allowed to pick your starting units, but not from a common resource-pool used for units and research. That said I don’t see too much relevance in doing so IF it requires a lot of time and attention for the devs ultimately taking it away from other things, maybe an option to standardize what kind of units you start with depending on initial army size would do all depending on how much work it would be.
    The reason I say this is because you can’t dictate beforehand whether you will have NPC to kill that would require a pike man or what have you.

    I really liked Garresh’s concept, but I fail to see how it would be better then to go with what I stated earlier. Allow you to pick “X” number of research to be done beforehand or to be the first in line to research, with possible exclusions, as well as having the “terraformer” skill from the get go, because it is universal and allows for mana dumping when the RNG hates you, or terrain creation is smiting you down in excess.

    #135484

    Agreed Kaiosama TLJ, there are indeed valid reasons for the current bonus distribution.

    However – reading the descriptions again – I think production is really more fitting to Dwarves than Humans. If we do strictly follow AoW lore. And then Humans could get the unused gold bonus instead.

    But more importantly, I don’t think the new building cost reduction is an elegant solution for the proposed “problem”:
    Currently ALL racial bonuses are: A) slight but permanent B) and are all visible in the city display.
    The building cost reduction unnecessarily deviates from these two basic principles, “because Dwarves and Orcs need some bonus too”:

    Racial City Bonuses

    Looking closer at this screen, all “variables” – except gold income – in this bar (1) are currently being used.

    The Halflings have their happiness (2). Nice solution and also fitting design rule “A,B”.

    Looking further, there’s one button left: Hurry Production (3)

    The Orcs *could* instead not be penalized on happiness (or less severely -50%, or less turns) when hurrying production of troops (4)
    This would also be fitting their warrior culture 🙂 (granted)

    Now, the *same* bonus could be applied to Dwarves – but for buildings.

    It is fitting AoW lore, all races have a bonus that is slight but permanent, and visible in this screen (when hovering the mouse over it).
    Design-wise I like this solution much better.

    Cheers
    PP

    #135485

    Taykor
    Member

    Actually I went back through AOW2 and realized something limited to it.
    Gold Mines gave bonus gold to earth sphere. Wind Mills gave bonus to Air. Normal mills gave water sphere, while fire gave it from furances. Subtle tiny difference 😛 . -If someone is curious, the very first map in AOW2 displays this as a tutorial page when you capture the goldmine in it.

    Very interesting, I didn’t know. And a variety of simple gold sources would be welcome in AoW3, too.

    #135490

    Fenraellis
    Member

    The Orcs *could* instead not be penalized on happiness (or less severely -50%, or less turns) when hurrying production of troops (4)
    This would also be fitting their warrior culture 🙂 (granted)

    Now, the *same* bonus could be applied to Dwarves – but for buildings.

    Mmm, I like that idea. It’s subtle, but allows for more rushing when the funds are available to do so, as there will be less happiness penalties as a result from rushing.
    Also, it’s applicable at all stages of the game, rather than a one-off bonus.

    Personally, I would go with -50%(thus a -50 penalty), rather than voiding the penalty outright.

    For Orcs, it’s a particular racial eagerness to go to battle, and for Dwarves, it’s a particular racial affinity towards construction projects.

    #135519

    AZJaguar
    Member

    I would like to see a new perk added that you can choose from.

    Spellcaster

    Basically this would be like explorer or expander but focuses on magic.

    Like research that allows you to get more mana from nodes, increases your spellcasting units like say a domain upgrade that all new units get +1 or +2 damage to their range that coincide with the type of magic you selected Like if you chose fire gets fire damage, air they get frost damage and so on. If you have two different elements then the upgrade gives two different damage upgrades.

    Selecting the Spellcaster perk will take away all the Mastery perks to select from, this instead adds a research to allow you to get the mastery spells later on. EX: I will take Spellcaster, adapt of air, and adapt of Water at the beginning. As I research I can then latter research Master of Air and Master of Water which will then allow me to research the mastery spells as well. This will allow us to master in two different schools of magic. So I can do the Pure Frostling feel since all the good Ice domain spells are master of Air but all the good frost damaging is master of Water….

    Maybe toss in a building upgrade you can research. Casting Chamber – When casting inside of the city/domain mana cost is decreased slightly.

    #135532

    Garresh
    Member

    Yeah I’ve been analyzing the proposed research bonuses for the elemental masteries. The wild proposal I had is pretty off balance. So maybe just make it a 5 point swing with a net bonus of 0 over time, but which makes research a little more chaotic. Either way, I like the idea of wild getting something unpredictable.

    #135544

    Kaiosama TLJ
    Member

    The Orcs *could* instead not be penalized on happiness (or less severely -50%, or less turns) when hurrying production of troops (4)
    This would also be fitting their warrior culture :-) (granted)

    Now, the *same* bonus could be applied to Dwarves – but for buildings.

    Hmmmm… That reminds me of Nomads in Shadow Magic, the cost beyond Gold for rushing on that game was Population and Nomads could build Slave Pits to cut this cost by half.

    That said this is not a bad idea. Like Fenraelis pointed out, it fits the Orcs eagerness for battle and fits the Dwarves affinity for elaborated architectures, so it makes sense to them to receive less penalty for rushing those things.

    #136004

    Bean7own
    Member

    Looking forward to the update. Some good changes here. You asked for suggestions, so here’s a few:
    – Can we have a clearer tech tree that allows us to see what paths each choice leads to down the track?
    – I’d like to be able to rename the heroes that join my empire during the game in the same way that I can rename my cities.
    – It’d also be cool if you could select the race and class of the hero when they join you, rather than taking pot luck.
    – Maybe this would unbalance the game too much, but it’d be great if each hero in the battle could cast a spell each round, rather than just one.
    – Would love to see the Drow added as another subterranean race too.

    Thanks for a great game though guys – I’m already addicted!

    #136011

    Draxynnic
    Member

    - Maybe this would unbalance the game too much, but it’d be great if each hero in the battle could cast a spell each round, rather than just one.

    This was unbalancing – it lead to a style of play that was typically referred to as ‘spell sniping’, allowing high-value targets to be annihilated with a volley of spells. The choices at the time were limiting spellcasting, or nerfing damaging spells to the point where they’d only be useful if you threw multiple spells in concert.

    - Would love to see the Drow added as another subterranean race too.

    Dark Elves, you mean? There are similarities, particularly in AoW2, but I’d prefer them to remain distinct from D&D drow. Particularly since ‘drow’ originally referred to something quite different in folklore.

    #136036

    Bean7own
    Member

    “This was unbalancing – it lead to a style of play that was typically referred to as ‘spell sniping’, allowing high-value targets to be annihilated with a volley of spells.”

    Yeah ok, that makes sense. I have only played this single player so far and was thinking about it from that point of view. I imagine human players would be pretty quick to snipe any heroes off straight away if they had multiple spells!

    And yes, I was specifically thinking of D&D style Dark Elves. I mostly just use Drow instead of Dark Elves because I like the word.

    What sorts of characteristics did they have in AoW2? It’d be pretty cool if at least some of their units could cast globe of darkness in combat, gain an extra attack for twin weapon fighting, or levitate over fortress walls!

Viewing 30 posts - 121 through 150 (of 166 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.