Did you know you can win a battle by just… Running around? Why?

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Did you know you can win a battle by just… Running around? Why?

This topic contains 56 replies, has 29 voices, and was last updated by  Stormwind 6 years, 11 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 57 total)
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  • #210819

    Socratatus
    Member

    One of my scouts got caught by three sets of soulles spirits.
    “I’m screwed now,” I thought, and was going to hit autocalc like I normally do, but for some reason, I decided to see how long I could make my scouts survive against these undead.
    On the battle map, the undead floated after my scouts. I made them run one way, then another way, I used their sprint for extra move. Just as I was getting in my stride, a game notice came up saying ‘No one has been damaged for too long’ or similar and the battle ended with a win for me! All you need do is run about for about 5 turns without getting hit – auto win!

    Now I understand this might be designed to prevent a long boring game, but this was only after about 5 turns, not long at all. Surely, the time should be more like 10 or 15 turns? This is almost like a convenient cheat. The time should be lengthened.

    #210826

    Stormwind
    Member

    This is usually more effective against the AI since it is not aware of the limitation.

    FYI if you attack a town, damage to any structures, like gates, counts as battle damage. So go break something before 5 turns go by. Not sure if it applies to random structures that are not on a town.

    But yeah its open for abuse against the dumb AI, you can always self impose a rule that you wont do it. I never do since its cheap against a dumb opponent.

    #210832

    CrazyElf
    Member

    It’s a valid strategy. It’s called kiting.

    You can actually win a fight by kiting. Warlord elven horse archers especially are good for this.

    #210838

    cosa65
    Member

    5 turns without anything being touched is a lot of time, it’s ok…
    On mp scout battles crows can try to do that stuff to survive against cherubs, for example… it doesn’t always work though if the other guy is expecting you to do that.
    It can be abused with ai only.

    #210842

    Socratatus
    Member

    This is usually more effective against the AI since it is not aware of the limitation.

    FYI if you attack a town, damage to any structures, like gates, counts as battle damage. So go break something before 5 turns go by. Not sure if it applies to random structures that are not on a town.

    But yeah its open for abuse against the dumb AI, you can always self impose a rule that you wont do it. I never do since its cheap against a dumb opponent.

    Wow. So we have to artificially hamstring ourselves? I’m amazed that this one simple loophole is in the game. I don’t understand why Triumph gave it such a short time period. It’s the first really bad decision i`ve seen them do in this game.

    It’s a valid strategy. It’s called kiting.

    You can actually win a fight by kiting. Warlord elven horse archers especially are good for this.

    ‘Kiting’ eh? Or just another word for ‘cheat’, perhaps? How is it a valid strategy in this game? Oh, you manage to run around for 5 turns so the AI gave up and went home and the game gives you win? 5 turns is barely across the battle map!
    If you are attacked, you are not allowed to retreat, yes? But this is a retreat, just 5 turns later. It makes no sense.

    And, no, it’s not a valid strategy, it’s a stupid cheat move that I’m going to have to pretend I never saw. I like to win by proper tactical strategy, not by gimping the game.

    Can’t believe no one else ever complained about this until me.

    TRIUMPH, please change this. My solutions:
    1. Get rid of this loophole altogether. When you’re stuck in a battle, you stay.
    2. Or make the time period longer. If the time was not so short the AI might have actually cornered me, as I had barely moved to the otherside of the map.

    Whatever you do, change this cheat mode!

    #210844

    Socratatus
    Member

    5 turns without anything being touched is a lot of time, it’s ok…
    On mp scout battles crows can try to do that stuff to survive against cherubs, for example… it doesn’t always work though if the other guy is expecting you to do that.
    It can be abused with ai only.

    5 turns is NOT a lot of time. It’s no time at all.

    I only play against the AI, so change it so it just works for Online.

    This is bs ruining of a game just to suit Multi-players and everyone knows Single players are the larger demographic. It needs fixing. Extend the Turn time or get rid of it in SP.

    #210845

    Bob5
    Member

    It prevents more cheesy tactics by the attacking force. The mechanic forces the attacker to attack if the defender doesn’t take the initiative, thereby pulling the attacker into the lines of the defender, which gives the defender the advantage of being able to form solid formations. Especially walls help with this. Without the turn limit an attacker could attack a city and then just wait out of range of the defending archers, and just stalling the battle indefinitely or until the defender leaves the walls to attack.

    #210846

    cosa65
    Member

    If you don’t like it, don’t use it, i never used it against ai, only on mp where rivals can develop strategies to counter it.
    Against ai you could simply pretend it isn’t there, it’s like save scumming, it’s there if you feel like using it, though it takes some of the fun away form the game.
    (This is a suggestion and a comparison that maybe can help you deal with this problem and see it form another viewpoint :), no need to call bs what i said when i’m just trying to help)

    #210849

    thabob79
    Member

    One interesting point not to forget. Yes, you dont lose but enemy don’t lose either. Neither lose troops. Attacker lose all mp (guerilla maybe). But, in case of siege, enemy still at doorstep. In the wild, it indeed grant you à chance to run. It may save you from time to time, but since flyers land every turn, its pretty fair. However others players should fling à spell after 4 turn.

    #210851

    CrazyElf
    Member

    ‘Kiting’ eh? Or just another word for ‘cheat’, perhaps? How is it a valid strategy in this game? Oh, you manage to run around for 5 turns so the AI gave up and went home and the game gives you win? 5 turns is barely across the battle map!
    If you are attacked, you are not allowed to retreat, yes? But this is a retreat, just 5 turns later. It makes no sense.

    Not at all.

    You can actually kill the enemy with a group of horse archers (especially the Elf ones).

    I don’t like bringing real life into a PC game, but in the real world, the Mongolians did this exceedingly well with their horse archers.

    #210852

    Stormwind
    Member

    This is usually more effective against the AI since it is not aware of the limitation.

    FYI if you attack a town, damage to any structures, like gates, counts as battle damage. So go break something before 5 turns go by. Not sure if it applies to random structures that are not on a town.

    But yeah its open for abuse against the dumb AI, you can always self impose a rule that you wont do it. I never do since its cheap against a dumb opponent.

    Wow. So we have to artificially hamstring ourselves? I’m amazed that this one simple loophole is in the game. I don’t understand why Triumph gave it such a short time period. It’s the first really bad decision i`ve seen them do in this game.

    It’s a valid strategy. It’s called kiting.

    You can actually win a fight by kiting. Warlord elven horse archers especially are good for this.

    ‘Kiting’ eh? Or just another word for ‘cheat’, perhaps? How is it a valid strategy in this game? Oh, you manage to run around for 5 turns so the AI gave up and went home and the game gives you win? 5 turns is barely across the battle map!
    If you are attacked, you are not allowed to retreat, yes? But this is a retreat, just 5 turns later. It makes no sense.

    And, no, it’s not a valid strategy, it’s a stupid cheat move that I’m going to have to pretend I never saw. I like to win by proper tactical strategy, not by gimping the game.

    Can’t believe no one else ever complained about this until me.

    TRIUMPH, please change this. My solutions:
    1. Get rid of this loophole altogether. When you’re stuck in a battle, you stay.
    2. Or make the time period longer. If the time was not so short the AI might have actually cornered me, as I had barely moved to the otherside of the map.

    Whatever you do, change this cheat mode!

    Look you have had this game for what now…a year? And this is the first time you have noticed it. So obviously it doesnt impact you much. One game out of a year.

    It is a perfectly valid strategy sometimes, I just dont use it against the AI because its not even aware of it. Its very hard to pull off against a human unless the units are matched up for it, because humans are aware of whats going on. Even just spell damage is enough to counter a kiting attempt.

    The only time I would use it against the AI is if I thought it would work even if the AI wasnt dumb about it, for example if the AI cast stoneskin on its only remaining unit and I could keep away from it.

    Dont you think its a little narcissistic to yell “change it” a year after release when no one has ever complained about this except you, and not even on this thread has anyone taken your side in it? Just dont cheese the AI if you dont want, its pretty simple, I do that. But there are times when its valid even against the dumb AI.

    Imagine how dumb it would be if the rule were not in place. 2 opposing forces on a town, nothing but range strikers, the attacker doesnt want to advance against a town advantage, and the defender doesnt want to leave the walls for the same reason, now what? They sit there all day? This puts the onus on the attacker…he has to prove an advantage or lose the fight.

    #210859

    Socratatus
    Member

    Nonsense, lad. Why would it make a difference a year after release? I had no idea whether it had been implemented in the last recent patch or a year ago. They`re still patching too. Regardless, that makes no difference to my point. It’s not narcissistic at all (first time anyone’s ever called me that)- Do you even know what that word means? Because I know it doesn’t mean what you think it means.

    My point still stands, it’s a surprising loophole that can and should be quite easily fixed and I believe this should be changed because once you know of this ‘cheat`’it will be hard to resist to use in an unwinnable fight against the AI.

    #210860

    zeelilus
    Member

    If it really breaks the game for you just consider it that your army outran their army. Surely you could consider that. I’m fairly certain armies have been outmaneuvered once or twice IRL.

    #210869

    Yigg
    Member

    I always thought the 5 turn limit was to prevent support units from just healing up their previously damaged allies every few turns while someone else kited a single enemy around indefinitely.

    #210870

    Stormwind
    Member

    Nonsense, lad. Why would it make a difference a year after release? I had no idea whether it had been implemented in the last recent patch or a year ago. They`re still patching too. Regardless, that makes no difference to my point. It’s not narcissistic at all (first time anyone’s ever called me that)- Do you even know what that word means? Because I know it doesn’t mean what you think it means.

    My point still stands, it’s a surprising loophole that can and should be quite easily fixed and I believe this should be changed because once you know of this ‘cheat`’it will be hard to resist to use in an unwinnable fight against the AI.

    Yes narcisstic, in that you demand it be changed despite the fact you are the only one to ever complain about it. The world does not revolve around you! I have never seen another thread about this, and not one person has joined you yet in this one, no one has said “Boy! If only they dropped the turn counter…just think how much the game would be improved!!”

    The point that it makes a difference the game has been out a year is because this has always been the behaviour, and yet its the first time you noticed it. So it apparently has microscopic influence on your playstyle. And mine too, it only happens if I deliberately play keep away from the AI, and surely I know when I am doing this. You should too. “Am I fighting, or am I trying to run out the clock”?

    There is no need to “fix” anything, because nothing is broken, as has been pointed out several times in this thread. Indeed, the game would be broken without it because of the possibility of infinite stalemate. The only thing that could be improved is the same thing that could be improved for lots of things…better AI. We all want that. But this is difficult and expensive.

    #210874

    Wintersend
    Member

    What the OP is talking about isn’t really kiting. Kiting implies you are peppering the enemy with ranged attacks or other such things to slowly wear them down. This is more of a game of keep away.

    Although it is a mechanic, I would like to see the timer extended by a round or two.

    #210875

    ArcaneSeraph
    Member

    Well it does create some rather dumb situations in MP. You can, for example, defend a city with a scout flying back and forth over the walls preventing a non-ranged enemy from killing you. It’s very cheesy tactic though so most people don’t do it. It can be stopped by damaging the walls or using spells but it’s still kind of poor behaviour.

    It is far better than the previous title which had all sorts of abuse tactics (fliers hovering over trees and such). Not really sure there is a way to fix it to eliminate all forms of cheese tactics though.

    #210879

    At one point there was no timer, and you could literally just keep running away forever.

    Believe me when I say that was far far worse than the current system.

    #210883

    Yigg
    Member

    I sort of miss dragons that could fly around with immortal impunity, roasting melee units at their leisure.

    #210884

    NINJEW
    Member

    That doesn’t sound fun to be on the receiving end of at all. I’m pretty glad that Dragons aren’t immortal.

    #210885

    Help! I’ve been stuck in an endless battle since April of last year. How do I get out?

    #210887

    Yigg
    Member

    That doesn’t sound fun to be on the receiving end of at all. I’m pretty glad that Dragons aren’t immortal.

    It was completely one-sided, but that was the situation we could exploit in the first AoW, and it always stuck with me how fun it was to be the player, and how horrible it must have been to be the AI.

    #210908

    Gloweye
    Member

    That doesn’t sound fun to be on the receiving end of at all. I’m pretty glad that Dragons aren’t immortal.

    It was completely one-sided, but that was the situation we could exploit in the first AoW, and it always stuck with me how fun it was to be the player, and how horrible it must have been to be the AI.

    Early SM patches had it to – the limited amount of breath attacks was introduced later.

    Anyway, I’ve known this mechanic since around turn 2. And I still think it’s a good one to be in there, and 5 turns is plenty of time.

    #210917

    Triscopic
    Member

    I have to agree we need this timer. I often use the first few turns to apply healing to wounded units. Knowing about the 5 turn limit though keeps me honest, and ensures I don’t spend more than a couple of turns doing so. Otherwise I’d probably let my heals finish cooling down and reuse them a few times before I assault the enemy.

    #210918

    Nodor
    Member

    Movement is a stat. Slow movement is dwarves biggest weakness.

    (Hyperbolic overreaction incoming)

    Next people will be saying you shouldn’t cast spells on orcs or attack halflings with physical damage because it’s unfair.

    🙂

    There has been a lot of play-testing with this and so far it seems really well balanced.

    #210919

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I also think, it’s a non-issue – especially compared with other things you can pull off.

    #210922

    Motasa
    Member

    What a ruckus the OP raises for something that forces the attackers to actually attack.

    #210926

    melkathi
    Member

    Can’t believe no one else ever complained about this until me.

    Made a bug report about this back at release. http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/floating-unit-in-siege-defense/
    That is basically what we are talking about, right? 🙂

    #210945

    @ Mel, no he’s talking about the principle of a battle ending after x turns of no damage, you’re talking about confusing the AI using walls.

    #210952

    Socratatus
    Member

    I reiterate again, it`s very simple. I have added a little extra for more choice.

    1: Make the turns until it ‘times out’ longer, say 10 or 15 turns. It’s over way too quickly.

    2: Get rid of it completely for Single Player.

    3: Make it optional with On, Off and a 5, 10 or 20 turn Timer choice.

    As it is, it`s a cheat.

    As for your responses, I am appealing to TRIUMPH, the only people who can actually do something about this. Fact is many of you completely ignore the optional choices I outlined, prefering to argue without actually reading what I wrote. The only reason I reply to some of you is because it keeps this thread at the top and hopefully, the Devs will notice and respond whether they say ‘Yea’ or ‘Nay’, cheers. I shall continue appealing to them.

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