Disappointed with halflings

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Disappointed with halflings

This topic contains 58 replies, has 22 voices, and was last updated by  chrysophylax páuperem 4 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #131358

    steveraptor
    Member

    Hello

    Yesterday I had some ideas and strategy i wrote on paper and decided to go for a halfling warlord.
    Considering, on paper that halfling got the same +1 range bonus like the elves and a strong tier 3 racial unit, i figured that the usuall MH/tier 3 flyer will work pretty good with them, combined with their lucky effect and all that.

    So that’s how it went, (vs 2 emperor AI, FFA)
    One was dread dwarf
    Second was sorcerer HE

    Basically halflings got amazing tier I units, from the jesters to horse archers, while creeping and exploring i did really great job and had around 3 cities by turn 15.
    Lucky berserkers proved to be very effective, i even managed to clear epic tomb with 0 loses with just tier 2 units and using a clover buff for more lucky chance (very lucky).
    I started training brew brothers asap for the minor bard skills they provide at gold medal, so kept some of them in my stacks as well.
    At turn 18 i got rushed by the sorcerer AI with 2 tier 3 gryphon and other stuff, but i easily defended my capitol with just few farmers and jesters behind stone wall.
    It went all nice and well until i went on the offensive, which then was the big killing point of my grandplan, something i havn’t considered.
    halflings pretty much hate any kind of terrain that isn’t “Green”.

    I signed peace treaty with the dwarf dread and went on the sorcerer.
    the cities of the sorcerer were all in arctic, and halflings, hate arctic,blight and volcanic terrain.
    I assaulted hes capitol with eagle riders, MH as the main bulk of the force with 2 full stacks on turn 36.
    To my horrible surprise, i barely kept my halflings at “content” levels due to the huge moral blow due to arctic terrain.
    it was extremely hard to assault the walls, since my lucky chance was barely 10%, and the 20% weakness to physical damage gave me huge amount of problems, my tier 3 eagle riders got totally destroyed by his tier I elven archers and apprentices, to make things worse, the AI had the prismatic spire which made things even worse every turn.
    I even had big problems killing phantasmal warriors due to incorporeal, since halflings have absolutely zero units that deal any form of elemental damage (jesters are obsolete at this stage of the game).
    To cut the story short, my 2x 6 stacks of tier 3/2 units got totally destroyed by some tier I/II defending units, a hero and 1 trebuchet (i couldn’t even use swap spell for my eagle riders since he didn’t have any tier 3 units on the defense at that time) , i think he had in total 9 units defending and a hero, that wasn’t even with node wyrms and other powerful summons.
    So yeah, my conclusions from that:
    Halflings are excellent at defending their own cities at their own favorite terrain.
    But they are horrible at assaulting other races in their terrain.
    The physical weakness just totally outshines the lucky proc chance since its hard to keep morale in high levels.
    The only solution i can think right now is going dread halfling for suppress nature, but that’s about it, or maybe using classes that has those +200 morale to the entire army.
    As of now it seems that warlord halfling is a no-go.

    Feel free to share ur experience with playing halflings.

    #131360

    Klydon
    Member

    I guess part of the question would be did you play with a custom leader or did you take one of the stock ones.

    If you played with a custom, what did you take for your 3 picks?

    What other leaders did you have at that battle if any?

    That is one of the issues with the warlord line to a point that warlord units only offer physical damage. Halfling Warlords are fine, but you have to compensate with some other picks to help them and/or also show up with some siege gear.

    I have taken quite the liking to using a tier of wild magic simply so I can get access to the summon minor elemental spell. Most of the minors are good additions to any army and depending on what you get, offer a variety of different damage types along with the ability to go over the wall.

    The other thing with Halflings is to make sure you are trying to use leaders that get moral buffs early (Dreadnaught-Theocrat) and then get those moral buffs as soon as you can.

    Sorcerer and especially HE Sorcerer cities can be a tough dig out simply because of the amount of range firepower they can deploy along with the physical damage resistant phantasmal warriors backstopping them and dealing with any fliers that come over the wall.

    #131364

    Arlow
    Member

    this would make the terrain changing spells very useful

    #131373

    steveraptor
    Member

    Forgot to post my specs.

    I ran costume hero:

    Wild Magic adept/Air magic adept/Fire magic adept

    Most cases degenerate solves the no elemental damage problems of the warlord.
    Also i usually play HE, so i run storm sisters.
    But its another problem with halflings.

    i got pretty unlucky with the heroes i got, was one sorcerer and another warlord in that game.

    And even then, the -300 morale penalty to terrain is devastating.

    Lets say that u do manage to achiev a theo/dread hero with +200 morale, AND u have a brew brother with another +200 morale.
    So thats +100 morale in hated terrain, still leaves ur lucky chance at 10%.
    Which means that the physical weakness is going to outweight ur lucky chance.
    i had that thought of going adept creation for bless, but then again, its only single target, by the time il buff my entire army with it, the fight will be over.
    And i won’t be able to use my core spells like Seeker/killing spree/stead ward etc…

    just my thoughts.

    #131390

    syntax_vi
    Member

    emporer halfing AI is a terrible thing to behold. Lucky Gold Manticores and Warbreeds with constant high morale… ugh.

    #131403

    Bob5
    Member

    Warlords have the Draft spell which increases the morale of all your units by 200. If you’re Halfling Warlord, focus your research to get that running, as it’s vital. Warlords also get Martial Arts and Thoroughbred Mounts which offset your fragility somewhat. Halfling warlord works quite well and has decent synergy, but they have problems with incorporeals because they have no elemental damage, so you have to adapt your sphere picks to it. Creation Adept gives Cleanse the Lands, which helps somewhat in fixing hated terrain issues, and also gives Bless which increases morale. Wild Magic adept gives Degenerate to help somewhat against incorporeals as it cancels their physical protection. Wild Magic also gives you Lesser Elementals which often have some form of elemental damage and allow a summoned army. The final sphere pick I recommend is either Air adept or Explorer, both for scouting. Zephyr birds scout great, but Explorer also has good synergy with your Monster Hunters and Adventurers are great irregulars with 3-shot attacks.

    Overall, Halfling Warlord isn’t the best synergy, but it’s not bad at all, as long as you get around the terrain and incorporeal issues with sphere picks. Halflings also synergise well with Archdruids (for similar reasons as Elves do, as well as minor bard skills shaman) and Theocrats (morale boost on heroes, Paid Absolution raising garrison morale, more HP on Exalted, slingshot on Martyrs, and Minor Bard Skills on Evangelists).

    #131404

    sharky
    Member

    This is the reason you always have “creation adept” to insure you can be offensive with halflings. Because the overmap spell that turns “X” hexes into temperate domain insures instantly you won’t get a negative modifier for environment morale. Bless is more about early game or small scale fights, the overmap cleanse landscape spell is more for ensuring your mid- endgame if the “R.N.G” allows it.

    Mind you though you have one global spell that boosts morale as a warlord, and global assault makes for a second spell since it gives your “brew brothers” the “minor bard skill”. I believe that makes 400 morale by itself. But I would still go with the “creation adept” because there are plenty of morale modifiers out there.

    To be honest I’ve been thinking about a post on this forums about the “Random Number Generator” being too strong at work in this game when it comes to spells. (probably a post or thread going on that already).
    Which spells you get first completely dominates your game imho, like when I get every damn “expander” upgrade in my late game it completely destroys my game.
    You should be able to choose 3 spells that you absolutely must have or at least make it so you have “Terraform”. So that if all else fails you can at least mana-dump and focus on your economy. Which imho is completely lopsidedly focused on morale. I really wish morale wasn’t everything at this point, especially the threshhold between 500 happiness and 800 or so. 800 is extremely achievable by some which means hyper-inflated income from cities constantly showering you in vast quantities of resources etc. rant, rant.

    #131407

    steveraptor
    Member

    Wow, how noobish of me.

    I completely forgot about the draft, probably because i just usually don’t get it early, and its usually turn 30+.
    But yeah, its seems extremely mandatory for offensive halfling.

    U guys gave good points, il probably go Air/Wild/Creation this time.
    Also, can u change the terrain outside of ur own borders with that creation spell?
    because if the answers is yes, then im off to try another game with halfling WL.

    @sharky

    I totally agree that we should get an option when the match start to pick ~3 skills we would like to start the game with.
    Ofc those skills will be around tier 1-3 so it wont be OP.

    I stopped counting how many times i get slowed down when i didn’t get skills like training regimen, throughbred mounts and such.
    RNG can really screw you up sometimes.

    #131414

    Chimaira
    Member

    Another thing to note (albeit a small one) is that as a Warlord you have access to 20% physical protection skill for a whole army, so for 1 stack the halfling weakness is completly nullified.

    #131415

    freese2112
    Member

    Another thing to note (albeit a small one) is that as a Warlord you have access to 20% physical protection skill for a whole army, so for 1 stack the halfling weakness is completly nullified.

    I think that the 20% physical upgrade is probably a pretty high level upgrade though (maybe level 10 if I remember correctly?).

    To be honest I’ve been thinking about a post on this forums about the “Random Number Generator” being too strong at work in this game when it comes to spells. (probably a post or thread going on that already).<br>
    Which spells you get first completely dominates your game imho, like when I get every damn “expander” upgrade in my late game it completely destroys my game.<br>
    You should be able to choose 3 spells that you absolutely must have or at least make it so you have “Terraform”.

    STRONGLY, STRONGLY agree with this post. I’ve played two SP games as a Warlord, the first time I didn’t get Training Regime until level 50+, and the second time was at level 43. The second time I was taking every low research point advancement to try and free it up, to no avail. I also didn’t get the Summon Lesser Elemental until level 40+, which really hurt. In that game, I actually started with (or got it REALLY early) the “Thoroughbred Mount”, but with 700 RP required, there is no way to afford that early and I assume it was a blocker for a long time.

    I like certain aspects of the randomness, but the lower level advancements need to be weighted heavier in the generator IMO.

    #131430

    Gloweye
    Member

    As a side note to above stategies, I must say attacking a city with 7 T1/2 units, 1 hero and a trebuchet with 12 T2/3 units sounds like it should be a loss anyway, if the defender has walls.

    Anyway, you could have swapped you Eagle for the Trebuchet, which is a T3, and either put the eagle in a good spot while killing the trebuchet, or flying the eagle back to your forces.

    As for the halfling, I must say they work very nice with every class having a class support unit. Why? because all halfling class supports have Minor Bard Skills inherently, which makes them pretty strong to have in any part, the 200 boost is huge for halflings. Even more when you’re Rogue, since those full bard skills alone are enough to compensate for hated terrain.

    I believe above posters already made it pretty clear how important morale is – halfling armies stand or fall with their luck. This also makes them bad at clearing crypts, since those have Mass Curse, inflicting -300 Morale – You must have had a nice fight clearing one with T2’s.

    Hope most for AD/Dread heroes. Those both have a 200 Morale party upgrade, which owns hard. While the Warlord does have the Toughness party buff for 20% Physical resistance, its indeed pretty late to come into play.

    #131436

    I totally agree that we should get an option when the match start to pick ~3 skills we would like to start the game with.<br>
    Ofc those skills will be around tier 1-3 so it wont be OP.

    I stopped counting how many times i get slowed down when i didn’t get skills like training regimen, throughbred mounts and such.<br>
    RNG can really screw you up sometimes.

    Yeah, there are already a bunch of techs that aren’t random because the game would be stupid if they were. It could really improve the game if a bit more of that was applied to the tech system in general.

    Honestly the tech system could use some work, I totally agree with the RNG nature of the early game spell options having a huge impact on your game that the player has zero control over. Letting the player pick a spell from each of their specs to start with would help a lot (you get free ones anyway, just randomly chosen, your options are the same just the luck removed). Another possible fix is to let the player research one spec and one class ability at the same time. This way you could actually research tactical combat spells and get to use them instead of just spending your whole time going up the main class unit and casting point lines so you don’t get out-teched. Or both of these options! Or something else entirely! But something, certainly.

    #131437

    alf978
    Member

    Hope most for AD/Dread heroes. Those both have a 200 Morale party upgrade, which owns hard. While the Warlord does have the Toughness party buff for 20% Physical resistance, its indeed pretty late to come into play.

    @ Gloweye,

    I THINK, you may have meant Theocrat and Deadnaught heroes, not ArchDruid
    Theo’s have Chaplain
    And Dread’s have Imperial Authority

    I don’t know of a moral boosting upgrade for Arch Druid?

    I could be wrong, and if so, I’m always happy to learn if I’m mistaken… 🙂

    #131449

    Gloweye
    Member

    Nope, you’re right. I thought Dread/Theo, but wrote it wrong…

    @research discussion

    I personally would prefer a system where you could choose maybe 1-2 tech/spec(depending on settings of course), and where you would need 2 techs of a certain Tier to be able to move on to the next Tier, or some structure like that. Meanwhile, you would have access to all spells that could be available with the above(or another) restriction, which would A) take RNG completely out of the equation, B) allow to plan research according to strategy, and C) restrict access to Tier 3 Tech by them not being able to choose at the start on default settings(would need to be at least 5 techs researched to have a Tier 3), and D) prevent single tree-rush strats(need to do 2 trees at least), because the CP upgrades/Creature tree options wont show up without the 2-of-the-previous-tier-requirement.

    #131459

    steveraptor
    Member

    Just finished a game with halfling WL vs 2 kings.
    Completely different story with creation adapt, purify the land played huge role to negate the moral penalty.
    managed to keep my luck chance on 20% and it went better then expected.

    Eagle riders with thoroughbred mounts and 20% luck worked pretty dam good.
    I havn’t got to manticores as i finished the game on turn 64 but i guess they would have been amazing with the luck chance at 20% at least.
    i also managed to evolve some elementals to tier 3 in that game so had some elemental dmg as well.

    got the draft somewhere on turn 40…as usuall =S
    And yeah, the +20% resistance to physical dmg is pretty dam awsome, but it came very late.
    Creation adept is pretty much mandatory to play as halfling it seems.

    #131470

    To be honest I’ve been thinking about a post on this forums about the “Random Number Generator” being too strong at work in this game when it comes to spells. (probably a post or thread going on that already).

    ha, there was a thread a while ago saying that more randomness was needed. To be fair though, the guy was talking about combat numbers, but still…

    Anyway, I think I saw an idea here on the forums somewhere to allow a shuffle ability, i.e., in your skill book, next to the tabs you have for dividing your spells into empire/combat etc, you now have a button that lets you pay mana to shuffle the spells in your existing list, with the casting points and unit and seafaring ones always there.

    Scaling costs ofcourse. So, the 1st time you do it, it only costs 100 mana, but the 2nd time, it’s 200, and then 400 etc.

    So, choose wisely, because mana is tight.

    At a relatively low entry point of 100 mana, it means you can reshuffle in the 1st 5 turns if you like.

    Now, reshuffling would remove whatever spell was in the research cook and replace it with an equivalent or slightly higher level one form the same schools, but would cycle through to avoid repetition.

    So, as a warlord, the more you shuffle, the higher your chance to get Training Regimen for example.

    Much more organic though would be a spell pyramid.

    So, if there are 5 lvl 1 spells in a spec, you research 2 to unlock a lvl 2 spell, research 3 to get 2 lvl 2 spells, like so:

    lvl 3,
    lvl 2,lvl 2,
    lvl 1, lvl 1, lvl 1, lvl 1, lvl 1

    So you can push for a certain tech. This works better in a system where you have more spells per pick. As it is, you get about 12 things to research for all 3 spec picks, so in that case you’d need to lump the level 1 spec picks together and have them unlock the next level, for example:

    Assuming you somehow started with nothing from Destruction sphere (it can happen, just rarely) then you would have 5 adept spells, and 2 mastery spells. Currently it’s totally random.

    With the above system, before you can get Disintegrate or Wreck, you would need to research Killer Instinct+ Scorched Earth (to unlock a mastery spell) and then Storm magic (to unlock 2nd mastery spell) and then Hasty Plunder (to get all 3 available to research.

    As it is right now, you can research Hasty Plunder, and then the spell that replaces it is Last Stand…

    IIRC< the original AoW system had something similar….

    #131485

    Garresh
    Member

    I agree a bit more control would be nice. Its worth noting that although we have more spell choices at any given time than back in Shadow Magic, the total number of choices is way higher due to 3 specs, and all our class techs. Randomness is good, as it prevents mindless memorization and forces adaptation, but certain things are a bit too strong. Mostly t3 spells like elementals or moving target right off the bat. Those can be brutal in the right hands.

    But also, the fact that research slot allocation leaves 1 for each combination of class/spec skills along with each tech type itself means that some research anomalies can emerge. I’ve had trouble reproducing it, but I’ve once every month or two found that when you heavily load a particular category through specialization choices, low tier techs sometimes get “forgotten” by the skill book. Perfect example would be a game I played(thankfully single player) where I couldn’t get scorched earth until Age Of Deception was researched.

    While that was a rather extreme case, I have periodically found that Trail Running sometimes hides behind Storm Magic, which royally screws me. It happens enough that I ditched Destruction Master even after all the great changes, simply because of the massive anti-synergy with explorer.

    This overloading problem can be quite severe, and can outright block certain play styles and specs. It creates an odd effect where it encourages you to choose specs with a balances split between passive, global, and combat spells lest you find yourself tech blocked by category.

    In truth, I probably should’ve written about this a long time ago, but I wasn’t really seeing it often enough, or able to reproduce it, but after recently retrying destruction master and getting blocked again, its fresh on my mind.

    #131493

    steveraptor
    Member

    The randomness of the skills given is actually what makes it more intresting to play and adept.
    However even simpler solution would be just to let us pick 1 skill from each sphere at the beginning of the match to appear on the spellbook.
    its just amazing how the RNG can troll you, as i write this im doing a game, on turn 59 now and Training regimen, The draft and thoroughbred mounts are yet to be seen.

    #131495

    Garresh
    Member

    Well I don’t want it to be set in stone, but giving the ability to, at opportunity cost, cycle through for other stuff might not be an awful idea. Think about a system like this: First cycle costs 60 research points. Second costs 180. Third costs 540. 4th costs 1620.

    It’s enough to save your bum, but it comes at an overall detriment to research speed.

    #131496

    Garresh
    Member

    Actually, probably scratch the 4th one, and bump up costs to 240 and 960. This would basically mean you get 3 mulligans per game, at rapidly escalating cost.

    #131498

    @ Garresh, I thought of using mana to do the same thing, however, I think it could be interesting to allow the player the chance to pick one thing at start, with the caveat that it is restricted to lower level stuff, or stuff worth x research points, so you can’t automatically choose lesser Elementals..

    Or you could make Wild Magic exempt from this system, as it is the random/chaotic spec, so shouldn’t be so easily tamed lol.

    #131505

    Fenraellis
    Member

    I really wish morale wasn’t everything at this point, especially the threshhold between 500 happiness and 800 or so. 800 is extremely achievable by some which means hyper-inflated income from cities constantly showering you in vast quantities of resources etc. rant, rant.

    200/400/600+
    Not sure where 500 and 800 are coming from?

    #131506

    Garresh
    Member

    I think hes just using a nonspecific range to point out how much stuff you get when everyone is happy.

    #131513

    Gloweye
    Member

    where I couldn’t get scorched earth until Age Of Deception was researched.

    I just had a game where Poison Mastery showed up only 1 spell before Age of Deception…around turn 60 for it to show up.

    #131547

    NuMetal
    Member

    It could really improve the game if a bit more of that was applied to the tech system in general.

    I disagree. Randomness ftw! 🙂

    #131565

    Gloweye
    Member

    f*ck randomness. except for exploration rewards etc.

    #131569

    llfoso
    Member

    I really love the mulligan idea.

    #131581

    f*ck randomness. except for exploration rewards etc.

    Yeah, the stockholm’s syndrome after getting screwed by the RNG is kind of weird from so many people. Less randomness doesn’t shut out certain playstyles, it means the players gets to choose them. Want to use a different spell first? You would absolutely be able to do that by choice with a less random system. It would open up more choices, not the reverse.

    If your argument then becomes “but some choices are inherently better at certain points in gameplay” that argument is still 100% true with a random system, which is why people keep saying things like “sometimes I can’t get a basic spell until the end of the game”. All randomization does is make player choices *less* important, as people pointed out someone can start with a powerful tool for free or someone can be denied basic tools in the same way, all by the RNG. There are not enough spells and abilities in the game for there to be redundancy, so the people saying that it “forces you to adapt” must really be playing another game. If you are missing an important class skill or spec spell that would be a really useful tool in your situation you are not likely to get anything that will help to replace it except that exact skill. Need to change terrain? Summoning spells will not help at all. Need a summon? Need a nuke? Here’s dread siege, have fun.

    The very fact that there are so many skill lines that are not random should speak for itself, really.

    #131602

    NuMetal
    Member

    @TheJanitor:
    Well, I can see how MP players would prefer predictable repetition to randomness, but for SP it’s just much cooler, has much more RP character and gives more replayability if it’s random what you get. Make the best of what you got.

    Of course I wouldn’t mind if perfect blant symmetry would be implemented as an option for MP though 🙂

    #131607

    Draxynnic
    Member

    We seem to have gone well off the ‘halfling’ topic. 😛

    One wonders how complicated it would be to program the research book to have a second page (or more). An additional page in the research book would double the chances of the research you want being available, and probably serve as fairly effective insurance against being totally messed up by the RNG.

    Whether the research book displays one page or two could be a setting in game creation.

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